Blue-phoenix186 Posted December 24, 2024 Posted December 24, 2024 What’s up with? Moash. i’m a little confused of what happened to him is he basically a Roshr inquisitor now. can someone help explain it to me please
Lord Ruler Sylphrena He/Him Posted December 24, 2024 Posted December 24, 2024 I think you understand it pretty well already. All that Hemalurgy needs is intent. Battar probably found crystals that grant a similar effect to Steelsight and gave them to Moash.
Argenti he/him Posted December 24, 2024 Posted December 24, 2024 It's probably a polestone, and they infused it somehow (Alerter fabiral? Stealing it from someone like Rock?) and then shoved it into the bindpoints in his eyes. It feels more like Lifesense than Steelsight, but who knows?
alder24 Posted December 26, 2024 Posted December 26, 2024 On 12/24/2024 at 1:20 AM, Blue-phoenix186 said: What’s up with? Moash. i’m a little confused of what happened to him is he basically a Roshr inquisitor now. can someone help explain it to me please Hemalurgy is like Lightweaving, which is an illusion-based magic that many different magic systems develop on their own via different means. Lightweaving is present on Roshar, Sel, Yolen and potentially Ashyn - they aren't exactly the same as the Rosharan one, but they are all similar. Hemalurgy is something like that too. You can steal pieces of soul and grant powers to others via spikes, but different places might manifest it a bit differently. On Scadrial metal is used as spikes and it looks like that on Roshar polestones have the same role as metals. With spikes replacing eyes on Scadrial, Marsh can see traces of metal everywhere, on Roshar, Moash can see investiture everywhere (while holding the Bands, Wax was also able to see investiture everywhere) - similar, related, but not the same, yet it's still Hemalurgy. Spoiler asmodeus You've said before that a lot of the magics we see across the cosmere come from an interaction of Shards and their Investiture with the planets they Invest in. What does this mean practically? If Scadrial explodes tomorrow, will Hemalurgy stop working across the cosmere? Brandon Sanderson Hemalurgy wouldn't stop working, most likely, but it could. There are ways that you could make it stop working. I kind of mean that the Shards are an innate part of physics in the cosmere, and the magics that arise are an innate part of physics because of that. Like atium seeped out into the Pits of Hathsin, in the same way, these magics are just gonna leak out, and different places are going to affect them. You'll see Lightweaving happening in different places, and the way the Shard is interacting with the local... The way the Shard is is going to affect how Lightweaving is administrated in the various magics, but it's still gonna be there. Hemalurgy is kind of a similar thing to that. You will see Midnight Essence, you will see some of these recurring ideas popping up, and these are like natural parts of the physics, but they're influenced by the Shards on the local planets. I don't know if that answer, that's gonna be a really fun one for them to transcribe into the Q&A thing, because I go around in circles on that question a ton. Put this part in when you do it. Footnote: It was a really fun one. YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022) 1
Scoop1407 he/they Posted January 3, 2025 Posted January 3, 2025 (edited) This being crystal rather than metal still begs the questions-- is this just similar to Hemalurgy, or is this actual Hemalurgy? Can Harmony speak to Moash now? If not, which Shard is this associated with? Given enough spikes, which Shard will gain the additional power over him? Edited January 3, 2025 by Scoop1407
Lord Ruler Sylphrena He/Him Posted January 3, 2025 Posted January 3, 2025 4 hours ago, Scoop1407 said: This being crystal rather than metal still begs the questions-- is this just similar to Hemalurgy, or is this actual Hemalurgy? Can Harmony speak to Moash now? If not, which Shard is this associated with? Given enough spikes, which Shard will gain the additional power over him? Brandon mentions that Ruins investiture is everywhere in the Cosmere so its possible that variants of Hemalurgy can be found everywhere similar to how we see different versions of Lightweaving. It's different but follows the same principals and might not be directly associated with a Shard.
Nitpicking Posted January 4, 2025 Posted January 4, 2025 10 hours ago, Scoop1407 said: This being crystal rather than metal still begs the questions-- is this just similar to Hemalurgy, or is this actual Hemalurgy? Can Harmony speak to Moash now? If not, which Shard is this associated with? Given enough spikes, which Shard will gain the additional power over him? It can be hemalurgy without being Ruin's hemalurgy, just as there are multiple sources of Lightweaving in the Cosmere. Crystal hemalurgy might be Odium's, for example. For all we know, wooden stakes are Cultivation's hemalurgy.
alder24 Posted January 4, 2025 Posted January 4, 2025 21 hours ago, Scoop1407 said: This being crystal rather than metal still begs the questions-- is this just similar to Hemalurgy, or is this actual Hemalurgy? Can Harmony speak to Moash now? If not, which Shard is this associated with? Given enough spikes, which Shard will gain the additional power over him? It's Hemalurgy, but not exactly the same one used on Scadrial. Hemalurgy is like the concept of Lightweaving or Midnight Essence - the same mechanic which manifests differently on different worlds and in different magic systems. Maybe it doesn't have to be of Ruin, but it looks like all of Hemalurgy is of Ruin because Ruin is everywhere in Cosmere and you need to borrow Ruin's intent to use it. Hemalurgy on Scadrial manifests with metallic spikes, because metal is a big part of Scadrial, on Roshar gemstones are important so that's why Hemalurgy on Roshar manifests with spikes. You can still use metal spikes on Roshar, you would be using Scadrian Hemalurgy, but crystals are used for Rosharan Hemalurgy. I think that Harmony can have some influence over Moash, but it would be similar to how the Set used Trellium spikes that made them invisible to Harmony. Those crystal spikes filled with Voidlight Connect Vyre more to Odium and this blocks Harmony from interacting with him in most ways, just like he couldn't do anything to Set members spiked with Trellium. Spoiler asmodeus You've said before that a lot of the magics we see across the cosmere come from an interaction of Shards and their Investiture with the planets they Invest in. What does this mean practically? If Scadrial explodes tomorrow, will Hemalurgy stop working across the cosmere? Brandon Sanderson Hemalurgy wouldn't stop working, most likely, but it could. There are ways that you could make it stop working. I kind of mean that the Shards are an innate part of physics in the cosmere, and the magics that arise are an innate part of physics because of that. Like atium seeped out into the Pits of Hathsin, in the same way, these magics are just gonna leak out, and different places are going to affect them. You'll see Lightweaving happening in different places, and the way the Shard is interacting with the local... The way the Shard is is going to affect how Lightweaving is administrated in the various magics, but it's still gonna be there. Hemalurgy is kind of a similar thing to that. You will see Midnight Essence, you will see some of these recurring ideas popping up, and these are like natural parts of the physics, but they're influenced by the Shards on the local planets. I don't know if that answer, that's gonna be a really fun one for them to transcribe into the Q&A thing, because I go around in circles on that question a ton. Put this part in when you do it. Footnote: It was a really fun one. YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022) Spoiler Questioner I'm trying to understand the relationship between Hemalurgy and the Shard Ruin. Most of the Invested Arts involve inputs of energy of the Shardic Investiture that corresponds to it. That doesn't seem to be the case for Feruchemy and Hemalurgy. So I'm wondering what the relationship is between the corresponding Shards and those two Metallic Arts. Brandon Sanderson There's a whole lot going on here, and I'm not sure how much I can get into right here. But one of the basic concepts I built for the cosmere, way back when, was that a lot of the different magics would be showing up in different systems. And there are certain underpinning fundamental rules. And this is why you'll see Lightweaving working the same way across three different magic systems; I think you've seen it in three different ones so far. Elsecalling's gonna work the same way. Hemalurgy is a thing that is, like, part of the nature of the cosmere, that the Shard simply knew and was able to tell people how to do So is it of that Shard? Well, yes, because you would have to be following that Shard's Intent in order to use it. But it could be discovered on other planets, as well. Questioner And independent of Ruin's presence, really, except for as Ruin affects the cosmere as a whole? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Exactly. You are correct. Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022) 3
Atlas333 Posted January 6, 2025 Posted January 6, 2025 On 12/23/2024 at 6:37 PM, Argenti said: It's probably a polestone, and they infused it somehow (Alerter fabiral? Stealing it from someone like Rock?) and then shoved it into the bindpoints in his eyes. It feels more like Lifesense than Steelsight, but who knows? I think secret spren (the spren that can detect investiture) are decent candidates for what are in the gemstones. 4
Rockbud he/him Posted January 9, 2025 Posted January 9, 2025 Would the number of spikes affect Harmony's potential influence? It's been a while since I read era 2 but I remember something about individuals needing at least 2 spikes for Harmony to actually have control? 2
Lord Ruler Sylphrena He/Him Posted January 9, 2025 Posted January 9, 2025 1 hour ago, Rockbud said: Would the number of spikes affect Harmony's potential influence? It's been a while since I read era 2 but I remember something about individuals needing at least 2 spikes for Harmony to actually have control? He can influence/talk and listen to you with one spike like with Vin or Wax. He gains full control at 4.
Nitpicking Posted January 11, 2025 Posted January 11, 2025 On 1/9/2025 at 2:03 PM, Lord Ruler Sylphrena said: He can influence/talk and listen to you with one spike like with Vin or Wax. He gains full control at 4. Except with the Faceless Immortals, where 2 give control, but Harmony needs time to actually exert it. 1
BinarySecond Posted January 13, 2025 Posted January 13, 2025 So I guess we can try and find a commonality between what a metal spike does and what we know happens with gemstones. My understanding is the metal hemalurgy (MH?) removes a portion of the persons spirit web to tack on to someone else. It's not just raw investiture, it's coded in some way. Gemstones can be used to trap spren; so my guess is that there is a specific spren. This is what leads me to think you can't just fill a gem with stormlight and ram it home for the effect. I like the theory on Secret spren being used that Atlas333 wrote above. It makes me wonder how different spren would impart differing effects though. If we could draw some kind of equivalency table between known MH spikes and Gemstone Hemalurgy (GH?) for effects that would be handy but with a single example in Moash I doubt we have enough data to do anything but speculate. The types of spren used don't appear to be clear in purpose in text having just looked over the Fabrial Coppermind article. 1
Atlas333 Posted January 13, 2025 Posted January 13, 2025 4 hours ago, BinarySecond said: My understanding is the metal hemalurgy (MH?) removes a portion of the persons spirit web to tack on to someone else. It's not just raw investiture, it's coded in some way. Gemstones can be used to trap spren; so my guess is that there is a specific spren. This is what leads me to think you can't just fill a gem with stormlight and ram it home for the effect. I like the theory on Secret spren being used that Atlas333 wrote above. It makes me wonder how different spren would impart differing effects though. If we could draw some kind of equivalency table between known MH spikes and Gemstone Hemalurgy (GH?) for effects that would be handy but with a single example in Moash I doubt we have enough data to do anything but speculate. The types of spren used don't appear to be clear in purpose in text having just looked over the Fabrial Coppermind article. Taking this in mind, I wonder how similar Moash is to a singer now. Think about it. Moash has a "gem" inside him that holds a spren (or at the very least keyed investiture) that grants him abilities and changes his body in some way. Sounds like a singer to me. The only difference is that he is likely locked into a single "form." If this is the case it gives us plenty of other data points to compare. I would imagine that any singer form could be somewhat replicated with this method. I imagine that the physical changes would be much less pronounced but the abilities (increased strength, stronger focus, maybe even regal abilities) would be similar. 1
Trusk'our he/him Posted January 13, 2025 Posted January 13, 2025 (edited) 4 hours ago, Atlas333 said: Taking this in mind, I wonder how similar Moash is to a singer now. Think about it. Moash has a "gem" inside him that holds a spren (or at the very least keyed investiture) that grants him abilities and changes his body in some way. Sounds like a singer to me. The only difference is that he is likely locked into a single "form." Yes, Singer Forms are essentially a more organic version of Hemalurgy. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/391-berlin-signing/#e12860 Questioner What happens in cosmere terms with Parshendi? Like, they Connect to a spren. And then, by it do they change their Identity, or what? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Basically what's happening is, that symbiosis has a similar effect to Hemalurgy, but not so nasty. And it's being reflected there in the Physical Realm. 4 hours ago, Atlas333 said: If this is the case it gives us plenty of other data points to compare. I would imagine that any singer form could be somewhat replicated with this method. Agreed. There are WoBs suggesting this should be possible too, though using captured Spren instead of actual Spiritweb fragments I think could yeild similar, if not better results. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100-rbooks-ama-2015/#e3471 xadcirk Can Hemelurgic Spikes be used to steal Listener forms? Brandon Sanderson Replicate them, perhaps. Stealing them would be like stealing the fact that someone is Asian--not really what Hemalurgy does. Or you could steal a Singer's ability to bond a Spren, and gain Forms that way. Maybe even steal multiple Gemhearts, then bond several Spren simultaneously for more exaggerated or hybrid Forms. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/364-the-great-american-read-other-worlds-with-brandon-sanderson/#e11387 Snipexe Could you spike the ability to grow a gemheart out of a singer? Brandon Sanderson Yes, I think you could. Yeah. Edited January 13, 2025 by Trusk'our
bmcclure7 Posted January 13, 2025 Posted January 13, 2025 On 12/23/2024 at 6:20 PM, Blue-phoenix186 said: What’s up with? Moash. i’m a little confused of what happened to him is he basically a Roshr inquisitor now. can someone help explain it to me please What do you mean you’re confused? It seems to me like you summed up pretty well. What is there to be confused about? 1
AonSoo he/him Posted January 16, 2025 Posted January 16, 2025 Does the spike method work on every planet? Why spikes, are there other sorts of trauma that can cause the same effect?
Treamayne Posted January 16, 2025 Posted January 16, 2025 (edited) 15 minutes ago, AonSoo said: Does the spike method work on every planet? Why spikes, are there other sorts of trauma that can cause the same effect? Your Intro Post doesn't mention what books you have or have not read, so I will spoil this, even though I beleive you have read Mistborn Era 1, based on the Felt discussion in the other thread. Spoiler Hemalurgy may not require metal (discussed here), but it does require blood and Piercing a Bind Point - spikes are an effective carrier for a Hemalurgic Charge that will pierce the Bind point and stay in place - connected to flowing blood. WoB: Quote Brandon Sanderson Hemalurgy wouldn't stop working, most likely, but it could. There are ways that you could make it stop working. I kind of mean that the Shards are an innate part of physics in the cosmere, and the magics that arise are an innate part of physics because of that. Like atium seeped out into the Pits of Hathsin, in the same way, these magics are just gonna leak out, and different places are going to affect them. You'll see Lightweaving happening in different places, and the way the Shard is interacting with the local... The way the Shard is is going to affect how Lightweaving is administrated in the various magics, but it's still gonna be there. Hemalurgy is kind of a similar thing to that. You will see Midnight Essence, you will see some of these recurring ideas popping up, and these are like natural parts of the physics, but they're influenced by the Shards on the local planets. I don't know if that answer, that's gonna be a really fun one for them to transcribe into the Q&A thing, because I go around in circles on that question a ton. Put this part in when you do it. Footnote: It was a really fun one. YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022) Quote Master_Moridin What is the relationship between blood and the Spiritual Realm? (Since Hemalurgy needs blood to graft the sDNA in a spike into someone else's sDNA) Brandon Sanderson The blood being in motion is part of it. 17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 28, 2012) Though there may be ways around "flowing blood" Quote Questioner Would it be possible to make Hemalurgic dental fillings? If there were a mad-scientist dentist? Brandon Sanderson I've thought about this. I think that would be possible, but for Hemalurgy to really work I need it to...it doesn't actually have to be touching the blood, despite what they think. But I think your average dental filling is not going deep enough... Questioner Root canal! Brandon Sanderson *Continues* But yeah, you could make it work. Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018) Hope that helps Edited January 16, 2025 by Treamayne SPAG 1
RefusesToElaborate Posted January 17, 2025 Posted January 17, 2025 On 12/24/2024 at 12:37 PM, Argenti said: It's probably a polestone, and they infused it somehow (Alerter fabiral? Stealing it from someone like Rock?) and then shoved it into the bindpoints in his eyes. It feels more like Lifesense than Steelsight, but who knows? We don't necessarily know if you need to steal abilities using this crystalline hemalurgy. After all Moash doesn't notice people being laid on him in his POV. Remember crystals can be charged and hold power on Roshar in a way metal doesn't in Hemslurgy. I think it may have less to do with stealing an ability and more to do with the colour of the polestone.
Trusk'our he/him Posted January 17, 2025 Posted January 17, 2025 10 minutes ago, RefusesToElaborate said: I think it may have less to do with stealing an ability and more to do with the colour of the polestone. I would think that polestone color aligns more with metal type than the specific power it gives, though it acts as a focus for determining what can be held, just as metal type does. Scadrian Hemalurgy we know can refine what is taken within metal groups, as Koloss spikes and iron Kandra Blessings share a metal, but use different parts and different amounts of stolen Spiritweb. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/90-barnes-noble-b-fest-2016/#e4652 Questioner What's the difference between a spike prepared for a Koloss and a spike prepared for a Mistwraith or Kandra? What side effects might occur from... [?]... Koloss spikes? Brandon Sanderson It's the pieces of the soul that are being ripped off and the amount of the soul that's being ripped off. That's a big part of it. What side effects would there be? You would probably not get something as intelligent. Questioner What's the difference in how you prepare those spikes? Brandon Sanderson The Koloss spikes, you've seen how they're done. The Kandra spikes were prepared by the Lord Ruler. He gave them to them, and so we don't know what he did, at least in canon. Questioner 2 That means that we kind of screwed up the role playing. Brandon Sanderson You can totally do- I imagine all the role playing happening in a slightly different alternate universe, where there are slight variations and differences. But yeah, there are no- Kandra spikes are prepared and given by the Lord Ruler, they didn't even know how to make them themselves. I mean they had an inkling of what went on, but they didn't know. I think a comparable method of refinement for Rosharan Hemalurgy could involve spiking or trapping different types of Spren, even if using the same polestone color.
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