The Fourth Moon

[imriel452]

What do we think this might be? I was debating some sort of Scadrian space station, but that would be way too early...

[Truthwatcher P]

I don't remember where exactly but there was a mention of a metal that attracts investiture coming from a meteor and I fell that that could be related? 

[logicless.bt]

Since the moons each signify a god, definitely seems implied that there's a fourth god present in the system. I'm suspicious that Taravangian looked up, away from Roshar, to search out Valor. She's clearly able to hide well as per Tanavasts PoV, but I also feel that this is a clever metaphor and that searching the skies was the wrong direction -- that she's on Roshar already, beneath his feet, maybe in that fourth moon or something

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

2 hours ago, logicless.bt said:

Since the moons each signify a god, definitely seems implied that there's a fourth god present in the system. I'm suspicious that Taravangian looked up, away from Roshar, to search out Valor. She's clearly able to hide well as per Tanavasts PoV, but I also feel that this is a clever metaphor and that searching the skies was the wrong direction -- that she's on Roshar already, beneath his feet, maybe in that fourth moon or something

I've been thinking this as well, Tanavast also looked up to find Valor, to no avail.

Taravangian felt lots of Bravery when he killed Rayse, with a description of it that seemed to match when a Shardic Intent is explained.

It would be pretty funny if Valor was right under everyone's nose the whole time.

But then why does Endowment say that she is isolated from the other Shards? If this theory is right, then she is in a system that contains a whole quarter of Adonalsium.

And why hide? Is she lying in wait for an opportunity?

Although, she is a dragon, like Cultivation. So perhaps they've secretly teamed up and are playing a massive long-con.

[+Crossen]

I am increasingly starting to believe that Valor (and her perpendicularity) are hidden in the ocean near the origin on Roshar.

[Cocoa he/him]

2 hours ago, Crossen said:

I am increasingly starting to believe that Valor (and her perpendicularity) are hidden in the ocean near the origin on Roshar.

I'm starting to wonder about that too. It fits too neatly with the thing about symmetrical numbers; one, two, four, sixteen all work, but not three. Harmony and Endowment have been able to talk to Valor, but not Honor, Odium, or Hoid. So possibly hiding in plain sight, especially since whatever these 'moon fragments' are have something going on that hides things from Shards. And I can't get out of my head the fiery glowing joints of the Unoathed shardplate. None of the three Rosharan Shards have investiture colored like that, especially since it was mentioned before Dalinar even ascended, so where's the power coming from?

There's something else weird about Rosharan cosmology, and that's whatever's going on with Braize's core. A metal that draws in investiture, turning the whole planet into a soul-trap. Reminds me way too much of Canticle, with its hyperdense core and sunlight investiture circuit, to just brush off the similarity. Not 100% sure that it has a direct connection with the fourth moon and the Shattered Plains, but it might.

[Inevitability]

2 hours ago, Cocoa said:

And I can't get out of my head the fiery glowing joints of the Unoathed shardplate

Honesty I think this is the best argument. 

On the topic of the deadeye spren now being the unoathed, do we think that this happens if BAM doesn’t get freed?

I’m not sure we totally know why Maya started healing yet. Was it because of the crack in BAM’s prison? (Side note: how’d that get there?? Maybe cultivation? ) Or does it have to do with Adolin embodying the values of another shard?

Valor is defined, by google , as “great courage in the face of danger, especially in battle”

That perfectly describes what happens in the Azish storyline.

That describes the Notum attack on RoW, the Tower, the mismatched duel, etc. Granted, you can make the argument for all soldiers and indeed valor would be present. 

Do I think Valor is hiding in the Fourth moon fragments? Honestly, no. Valor would have had to be there prior to Honor and Cultivation. Odium wouldn’t come for a while yet. What would have driven Valor to hide?

[timi1993 he/him]

My initial thought was that that’s how the Sleepless got to Roshar. 
 

Quote

I SAW PEOPLE THERE - NEW ONES. WATCHERS, WHO HAD BEEN HIDDEN FROM ME

To me it sounds very sleepless like.

[DireMouse]

4th moon = Adonalsium. 
 

every shard that is part of Roshar has a moon. Adonalsium was the first shard attuned to Roshar. Makes sense he would have a moon. Also the fact that it is shattered makes sense too, and it seems like it would have been there before the other shards. 

[teknopathetic he/him]

Makes

me wonder if Truth was an old god that died. The three moons predate the shards, so I’d assume they were for the 3 or 4 old gods that were left there. 

[Trutharchivist he/him]

On principle, I'm opposed to the idea that Valor is on Roshar. But I have been wrong before, and the argument of the fourth moon is somewhat convincing - especially since it was clearly hidden from at least Honor.

However, the Perpedicularity associated with it is clearly Odium's as seen in the book. The theory that Valor is at the origi of storms... in theory interesting, in practice impractical. Shouldn't the Stormfather have noticed her there? Though he really doesn't say anything about wether there are islands to the east, so IDK.

I think the Sleepless theory is supported by the epigraphs of part 3. Someone suggests to their allies they should go to the Well of Control and they refer to themselves in plural, suggesting that it's the sleepless.

I don't really buy Truth as a fourth god, as the other three - Wind, Stone and Night - seem to be natural things and not concepts, with the concepts being brought by Honor. A fourth old god could make sense if it wasn't for Honor saying there were three - though he could be blind to something, and the fourth moon could've fallen before he came. It does reflect the story of the Natanan queen that slept with the moon.

[boolamoo]

I was under the understanding that it was Mishram.

[the_archduke]

In Oathbringer, right before he was excommunicated, Dalinar talks to Taravangian about the half shards.  Taravangian mentions that there was a mythical metal that could block shardblades, and it fell from the sky.  Why would aluminum be falling from the sky?  I think this suggests the 4th moon was artificial with some significant fraction of the construction of aluminum.  Possibly deorbited when Honor and Odium clashed over Stormseat?  

"That's no moon...  It's a space station.  It's too big to be a space station.  I have a bad feeling about this."

Also found this Word of Peter

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/305-miscellaneous-2014/#e8096

If the other 3 moons' orbits are artificial, the 4th was probably too.

Edited December 12, 2024 by the_archduke

[Argenti he/him]

10 minutes ago, the_archduke said:

In Oathbringer, right before he was excommunicated, Dalinar talks to Taravangian about the half shards.  Taravangian mentions that there was a mythical metal that could block shardblades, and it fell from the sky.  Why would aluminum be falling from the sky?  I think this suggests the 4th moon was artificial with some significant fraction of the construction of aluminum.  Possibly deorbited when Honor and Odium clashed over Stormseat?  

"That's no moon...  It's a space station.  It's too big to be a space station.  I have a bad feeling about this."

Also found this Word of Peter

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/305-miscellaneous-2014/#e8096

If the other 3 moons' orbits are artificial, the 4th was probably too.

Well, the whole planet is artificial. I feel as if something as large as a moon vanishing during the clash would have been mentioned. It's older than Honor, I think.

[alder24]

15 hours ago, the_archduke said:

In Oathbringer, right before he was excommunicated, Dalinar talks to Taravangian about the half shards.  Taravangian mentions that there was a mythical metal that could block shardblades, and it fell from the sky.  Why would aluminum be falling from the sky?  I think this suggests the 4th moon was artificial with some significant fraction of the construction of aluminum.  Possibly deorbited when Honor and Odium clashed over Stormseat?  

Aluminum is a commonly found element in meteorites and asteroids, it's no surprise it falls from the sky. Yanagawn said that all aluminum he owns as the emperor came from meteorites.

The 4th moon crashed on Roshar way before Honor arrived there. During Honor's first clash with Odium over the Shattered Plains the pieces of the 4th moon were already buried in the ground. Honor also said that the pieces of the moon were made out of "something greater than aluminum" - that's either duralumin or a god metal. 

[Kfish]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Aluminum is a commonly found element in meteorites and asteroids, it's no surprise it falls from the sky. Yanagawn said that all aluminum he owns as the emperor came from meteorites.

The 4th moon crashed on Roshar way before Honor arrived there. During Honor's first clash with Odium over the Shattered Plains the pieces of the 4th moon were already buried in the ground. Honor also said that the pieces of the moon were made out of "something greater than aluminum" - that's either duralumin or a god metal. 

or Dragonsteel

[Elder]

On 12/8/2024 at 4:22 PM, Truthwatcher P said:

I don't remember where exactly but there was a mention of a metal that attracts investiture coming from a meteor and I fell that that could be related? 

It attracts investiture?  I’m listening to Sunlit Man, and that makes me think of Canticle… which could be described as moon sized.

also, I wonder if there isn’t some of that moon in the purelake.

Edited December 13, 2024 by Elder

[Treamayne]

On 12/9/2024 at 8:21 PM, DireMouse said:

4th moon = Adonalsium. 
 

every shard that is part of Roshar has a moon. Adonalsium was the first shard attuned to Roshar. Makes sense he would have a moon. Also the fact that it is shattered makes sense too, and it seems like it would have been there before the other shards. 

This is what I came to discuss - Notably, in Ch 100 when Tanavast first arrives, no moons are described as being around Roshar. If Adonalsium's moon crashed with the Shattering, then this is likely the First Moon - shattered and forgotten before the coming of Tanner, Kor and Rayse.

On 12/13/2024 at 10:29 AM, alder24 said:

Aluminum is a commonly found element in meteorites and asteroids, it's no surprise it falls from the sky. Yanagawn said that all aluminum he owns as the emperor came from meteorites.

The 4th moon crashed on Roshar way before Honor arrived there. During Honor's first clash with Odium over the Shattered Plains the pieces of the 4th moon were already buried in the ground. Honor also said that the pieces of the moon were made out of "something greater than aluminum" - that's either duralumin or a god metal. 

I think it being named Well of Control may imply this was the Control Dawnshard - being protected by Sleepless at the time of this clash, then moved after the results of their clash in proximity to the Well's location (allowing Odium's power to coalesce in the now-empty well and, therefore, hide his perpendicularity).

Just thoughts offered up for discussion

Edited January 7, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[JackCloud47]

Thought I've had about the whole rosharan system:

16 celestial bodies (13 planets and 3 moons), and now one more that fell. That makes seventeen, which reminds me of the original 16 shards plus Hoid.

There's definitely some connection to the shards, so I'm not commiting to the idea it represents Hoid, but it is an interesting thought.

[lacrossedeamon]

All the way back from Emperor's Soul: "[Shai's] ancestors had worshipped rocks that fell from the sky at night. The souls of broken gods, those chunks had been called."

Feels like it could be related despite being a completely different planetary system. Maybe there are multiple broken moons across the cosmere.

[The Sovereign]

Just picking a little bit of a nit here; I don't have my copy of WaT in front of me to get the exact quote, but Tanavast makes a comment along the lines of "it was like Aluminum but not". The 4th moon was probably Duralumin, not Aluminum.

Edited August 27, 2025 by The Sovereign

[Nitpicking]

21 hours ago, The Sovereign said:

Just picking a little bit of a nit here; I don't have my copy of WaT in front of me to get the exact quote, but Tanavast makes a comment along the lines of "it was like Aluminum but not". The 4th moon was probably Duralumin, not Aluminum.

Not silver?

[BinarySecond]

1 hour ago, Nitpicking said:

Not silver?

I also thought Dralumin, as it amplified the clash between Rayse and Tanavast. Assuming what we know from Mistborn holds true universally but it certainly seems to based on Navani's lectures on Fabrial Mechanics.

[The Sovereign]

2 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Not silver?

47 minutes ago, BinarySecond said:

I also thought Dralumin, as it amplified the clash between Rayse and Tanavast. Assuming what we know from Mistborn holds true universally but it certainly seems to based on Navani's lectures on Fabrial Mechanics.

Silver isn't Investiture inert. Duralumin and Aluminum are. As Tanavast says it is like Aluminum but not the logical leap is that it is an Aluminum Alloy with similar properties; I.E. Duralumin.

I hadn't really considered the amplification property of Allomantic Duralumin, but I don't believe that is what happened there. It seems more likely to me that was the result of Honor and Odium's clash breaking the shell of (maybe)-Duralumin that was shielding the Perpendicularity and the surge of power was a resonance with Odium's Perpendicularity.

Edited August 28, 2025 by The Sovereign

[Kfish]

23 hours ago, The Sovereign said:

Silver isn't Investiture inert. Duralumin and Aluminum are. As Tanavast says it is like Aluminum but not the logical leap is that it is an Aluminum Alloy with similar properties; I.E. Duralumin.

I hadn't really considered the amplification property of Allomantic Duralumin, but I don't believe that is what happened there. It seems more likely to me that was the result of Honor and Odium's clash breaking the shell of (maybe)-Duralumin that was shielding the Perpendicularity and the surge of power was a resonance with Odium's Perpendicularity.

The problem ls that this would require two metal properties- aluminum and duralumin because aluminum shields but duralumin doesn't. We don't see Bronze having the effect of noth Bronze and Copper. Besides, if it was duralumin there'd be no reason to be so circumspect about what it is from a writing perspective. This is also the clash where some anti investiture was created. 

 

I also want to posit that Brandon has revealed Braize has a unique attribute at its core that attracts investiture abd Canticle also has a unique interaction with investiture. Whatever the fourth moon is, it was part of the overall construction Adonalsium placed in the system. Like...some sort of machine where Roshar. The fourth moon (maybe the other three as well), and Braize act as individual parts.