Chapters 23 & 24

[StanLemon]

We still don't know much about that fabrial. They might have some Leecher grenades though which would be a problem for Shallan. Assuming they are available at this point in the timeline. 

[duladen he/him]

5 minutes ago, Ninth of the Night said:

Cool so the Ghostbloods will more than likely have some aluminum defenses, but it's not like Shallan is unaware of the metal. They have it on Roshar. I guess this is another gap in my knowledge, can aluminum be used to block a Radiant's powers? Is that what powered the fabrial to interfere with Kaladin in the evacuation of Hearthstone, or would they simply be able to Leech their stormlight with a charged grenade?

I feel like I should know this stuff already but my memory feels like Taravangian sometimes.

 

I believe so, yes. Didn’t Mraize imprison Lift in an aluminum cage in RoW?

[Ashbringer he/him]

1 hour ago, coolsnow7 said:

I am certain that they came armed with Aluminum leeching grenades, aluminum cages, aluminum bullets, etc. etc. If they have the initiative they can probably do whatever they want to her.

That said I think you’re correct. Iyatil will let her think she’s in control for as long as possible.

 

8 minutes ago, Ninth of the Night said:

Cool so the Ghostbloods will more than likely have some aluminum defenses, but it's not like Shallan is unaware of the metal. They have it on Roshar. I guess this is another gap in my knowledge, can aluminum be used to block a Radiant's powers? Is that what powered the fabrial to interfere with Kaladin in the evacuation of Hearthstone, or would they simply be able to Leech their stormlight with a charged grenade?

I feel like I should know this stuff already but my memory feels like Taravangian sometimes.

That’s part of the thing - aluminum is powerful, but it’s not a magical no-magic-around metal. It can’t be affected by Surges but it doesn’t stop their use. Some edge case we don’t know about - mainly if a full aluminum cage would stop Shallan entering the Cognitive realm and Soulcasting objects beyond it.

And when it comes to Shardblades and presumably Shardplate, it’s still a fairly flimsy metal. Rosharan inhibitor fabrials can’t stop a 4th Oath Radiant, I doubt a Leecher Cube could stop Shallan from summoning her armor. And then Shardplate won’t get instantly shattered by an aluminum bullet, it would take some effort. Especially if they can’t drain her Stormlight before she manifests the armor.

The best way is probably similar to what nearly happened to Dalinar - drain her Stormlight, then collapse a building or cliff and bury her. But that gets much more complicated with Radiant abilities.

If we’re leading into a conflict between Scadrial and Roshar, Scadrial has to have some weaponry to punch through Shardplate. But we’re also not sure if they have harmonium capabilities.

I also wonder how Shardplate interacts with a cadmium bubble…

Edited October 21, 2024 by Ashbringer

[The Sovereign]

We also see it interact with Rosharan Investiture with the Aluminum room in Kohlinar, the Shardblade "sheaths", the box Nergaoul's gemstone is placed it, etc. etc. As @Ashbringer points out, it interacts with it but doesn't necessarily negate it.

Edited October 21, 2024 by The Sovereign

[Unhurried he/him]

30 minutes ago, duladen said:

Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Molli! Baba Black Sheep holds my sorrow and consumes it!

This made me chuckle - continuing on the Molli theme, on a semi-serious note, I wonder if there is something similar going on to the Ryshadium. If the stones are imbued with some form of RAFO significance, it would make sense the farmers are one of the more highly valued roles, if they are the ones who are most likely to spot new stones. Therefore, having animals who can help with the finding process - such as Molli - would be an advantage. If that makes the sheep like the Ryshadium, I wonder what spren they would have...

[Dofurion]

Just now, Unhurried said:

If that makes the sheep like the Ryshadium, I wonder what spren they would have...

Softspren

[The Sovereign]

15 minutes ago, Unhurried said:

I wonder what spren they would have...

Definitely Lopen's gift for Syl [Wool] Hat Spren.

Edited October 21, 2024 by The Sovereign

[Elder]

Domesticated Spren…

There’s definitely some interesting implications for this.  You’d probably end up with a full time job as a Sprenherd.  Maintaining a fire for your flame Spren to go to when they’re not working on the heating fabrial… basically, you are transferring half (or perhaps some other ratio) from an open fire to Stormlight… you you may need less fire for the Spren, so the ratio may be more forgiving.  Or perhaps you keep Spren Ranches with constant a constant fire, and rubies are charged there.  I’m guessing we’re seeing an application of Nohadon’s “Let them leave” philosophy.

I’d compare it to free range cattle/chickens (as opposed to the ones kept in industrial farms where they never get out of cages) before saying slavery with extra steps.

Quick question: can one replicate the effects of emotional allomancy with emotional spren, the right gemstone, and Brass/Zinc wiring?  And what would herding those Spren be like?

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

39 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The reason they follow him is because he convinced them he's the right person to be followed. This isn't a legitimacy issue, Gavilar suddenly showing up won't change this, he shouldn't even get the Alethi throne back as he quite literally died. 

Right! I don't get where the confusion is here after reading the back and forth on this thread. First of all, what on Roshar would make a Gavilar return make any level of sense? He is dead and gone, and he's of no more relevance really other than to continue appearing in flashbacks or having more details of his life get revealed by the Stormfather which will further Dalinar's development as a person, leader, and bondsmith. If anything, from the flashbacks we have learned that Gavilar was not pulling all the strings, but instead having his strings pulled by multiple groups. He was less significant than he thought he was, and if he was brought back by a miracle at this point Navani and Dalinar would probably both reject him. Sadeus is dead too, so he wouldn't even be around to help give Gavilar support. He would be a pointless person to bring back at this stage.

40 minutes ago, Dofurion said:

Regarding Rushu, remember that the Ardent are technically considered genderless in Vorin culture, so the Sibling's statement (who is unaware of that nuance and is more accustomed to the pre-betrayal culture) and Rushu's subsequent response is consistent with the present dialogue.

I think anyone who reads Rushu as not being non-binary / gender-fluid / etc. at least to some degree is just trying to find a way to ignore all the signs. The most straightforward and plain reading of the text implies very heavily that she is. Especially with her comments about beards and hair length, Navanni's internal thoughts about how/why Rushu is oblivious or intentionally ignores the male attention she gets.. and then her excitement at speaking with the Sibling and specifically wanting to discuss their gender identity? She wasn't just engaging in her typical scholarly excitement - she was connecting with a kindred spirit. The way that she responds quietly makes it seem even more like this is a personal thing her for and the main driver of her responses. It's great that Brandon is including these nuances and aspects to his characters and I hope we get to see more of their perspectives and experiences.

Quote

“Navani tells me,” Rushu said, “that you are neither male nor female.”

“It is true.”

“Could you tell me more about that?” Rushu asked.

“To a human, it must sound very strange.”

“Actually, it doesn’t,” Rushu said quietly. “Not in the slightest. But talk, please. I want to know how it feels to be you.”

To me this is plain as day, and I'm glad to see Brandon incorporating more and more LGBTQ+ characters in his books, and doing it in such a positive, inclusive, and normalizing way.

[Ninth of the Night]

19 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

And then Shardplate won’t get instantly shattered by an aluminum bullet, it would take some effort. Especially if they can’t drain her Stormlight before she manifests the armor.

Which seems impossible as living armor is always present. All it takes is a quick mental command to manifest its full defenses. Edit: also, I don't think platespren require Stormlight to operate? Radiants don't need it to summon their blades.

I'm fully expecting the Ghostbloods to be prepared for Shallan, I just don't think it'll be a slam dunk as some people seem to expect. Even with aluminum, they don't have much (or any) experience in facing a fourth ideal Radiant. It'll still be a struggle, Mraize didn't want to have to face Shallan. She's still probably in over her head, no doubt, but the Ghostbloods aren't infallible. Especially this sect of them.

It's a similar issue I see often in regards to Hoid. Some people seem to think he's basically omniscient, which of course he isn't. He can still be tricked, or killed, and he doesn't know everything. The Ghostbloods likewise are not an unstoppable force. They are quite formidable though.

Edited October 21, 2024 by Ninth of the Night

[Little_Dagger she/her]

Maybe I've missed the reason, but why can't the lightweavers lightweave sand that has gone white back to black? Like, let it change color all it wants in the presence of Investiture -- it doesn't matter if the lightweaving on top prevents anyone seeing it.

[alder24]

24 minutes ago, Ninth of the Night said:

Cool so the Ghostbloods will more than likely have some aluminum defenses, but it's not like Shallan is unaware of the metal. They have it on Roshar. I guess this is another gap in my knowledge, can aluminum be used to block a Radiant's powers? Is that what powered the fabrial to interfere with Kaladin in the evacuation of Hearthstone, or would they simply be able to Leech their stormlight with a charged grenade?

I feel like I should know this stuff already but my memory feels like Taravangian sometimes.

Aluminum cage won't prevent you from using Radiant powers (as seen in OB when they were using a Soulcaster in a room with aluminum walls to feed Kholinar), but aluminum primer cube will. Ghostbloods and Kelsier specifically have some contacts with Malwish and Southern Scadrians, they should have access to at least a few of them. Charging them with aluminum will prevent anyone from using their powers in the range of the cube. It should also prevent a Radiant from summoning their plates and blades as Leeching can do it. And of course, aluminum will also block any Shardblade cut.

The suppression Fabrial wasn't powered by aluminum, it was a spren manifested in the PR as an unknown metal (definitely not aluminum as aluminum reduces the area of effect of a Fabrial) fueled by Voidlight, but it works on the same principles as Allomantic aluminum. Ghostbloods were dealing with Fused in RoW, so it’s also possible that they have some suppressing Fabrials ready to be activated. 

As for how aware is Shallan of aluminum's properties, it's unknown. She should know how it interacts with Fabrials and that it blocks detection by Secretspren, but she might not know that it can block a Shardblade and it is generally non-interactive with investiture and most definitely would not know that aluminum in Allomancy can act like a suppression Fabrial. 

Spoiler

Rodrigo

What would be the difference between an aluminum and a chromium grenade, and between nicrosil and duralumin grenades?

Brandon Sanderson

We're talking specifically about the Bands of Mourning ones?

*Matt affirms*

So, what would be the difference? Aluminum would create a sort of "You can't use Allomancy in this... nearby this" most likely, yeah. Duralumin would do the opposite. You would be able to use it and then enhance someone. I haven't played with the ranges on these things yet, and so that's where we get into kind of the question mark territory. Like, right now, I haven't really given them an area of effect unless the power itself has an area of effect. Does that make sense?

[...]

The Dusty Wheel Show (June 17, 2021)

 

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

If a Leecher was holding a Shardbearer and burning [chromium], would the Shardbearer be able to summon their Blade?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No.

Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017)

 

[Ashbringer he/him]

18 minutes ago, Ninth of the Night said:

Which seems impossible as living armor is always present. All it takes is a quick mental command to manifest its full defenses. Edit: also, I don't think platespren require Stormlight to operate? Radiants don't need it to summon their blades.

I'm fully expecting the Ghostbloods to be prepared for Shallan, I just don't think it'll be a slam dunk as some people seem to expect. Even with aluminum, they don't have much (or any) experience in facing a fourth ideal Radiant. It'll still be a struggle, Mraize didn't want to have to face Shallan. She's still probably in over her head, no doubt, but the Ghostbloods aren't infallible. Especially this sect of them.

It's a similar issue I see often in regards to Hoid. Some people seem to think he's basically omniscient, which of course he isn't. He can still be tricked, or killed, and he doesn't know everything. The Ghostbloods likewise are not an unstoppable force. They are quite formidable though.

Based on Sunlit Man and a few other things, Living Plate acts mostly the same defensively as dead Plate (though if Zellion’s plate is living or dead or something else is uncertain). It can still crack and shatter and repair itself with Stormlight. Summoning probably is fine without - Aux mentions that summoning or changing the Blade uses a “negligable” amount of Investiture, but it’s never seemed like a problem for Radiants or non-Radiants when there’s not a suppressor fabrial around.

I doubt the GBs were expecting the Shardplate Iron Maiden trick, but they should know enough about Plate in general.

Shallan has no idea what Allomancy can do, though. She doesn’t know a touch can be dangerous to her Stormlight, and a Leecher!Iyatil could probably drain her before getting her armor active (and then potentially stop her from summoning it and her Blade per the WoB Alder just posted, which may solve the GB’s problems).

I imagine Iyatil will think she’s in complete control until approximately 3 minutes after she loses control. But that won’t be for a while.

[Ninth of the Night]

20 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It should also prevent a Radiant from summoning their plates and blades as Leeching can do it.

Oof. Never mind then Shallan might be doomed. No knowledge of Allomancy is a severe disadvantage (but then I'm left to wonder why Wit didn't inform her...). Still, she's a crafty girl, she could find a way out of it. Not that I think she'll defeat the Ghostbloods. Obviously. As they're still active on Roshar in Lost Metal.

13 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

Based on Sunlit Man and a few other things, Living Plate acts mostly the same defensively as dead Plate...

Not that I disagree with your points or anything, just want to note that Aux and Sigzil are a very unique case. Armor as well. Sigzil doesn't have active oaths in Sunlit Man, from what I can tell. Yet he can still summon Aux for reasons we can only guess. Presumably a post-dawnshard effect? It burned most of Aux away while welding the remnants to Sigzil's soul... Well that's my guess anyway.

Edited October 21, 2024 by Ninth of the Night

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

1 hour ago, coolsnow7 said:

I think if someone read this 50 years ago or reads it 50 years from now, it would just go over their head. Ie in a vacuum this tells us nothing at all. But because gender is a (relatively) hot topic these days, it’s a wink from Brandon signaling that indeed Rushu is non-binary. 

I can not guess about 50 years from now, but can say that 50 years ago this would have the same signaling as it does today. In fact we were accustomed to more subtlety and context, so this is would have as obvious back then as it is today.

[Wanguu He/Him]

  

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

How are Flamespren doing it willingly? What Navani is doing now is throwing a treat into a cage and locking the gate after a dog runs into it to eat that treat.

 

1 hour ago, Elder said:

I’d compare it to free range cattle/chickens (as opposed to the ones kept in industrial farms where they never get out of cages) before saying slavery with extra steps.

I agree with Elder, but this bleeds into real-life ethics of animal husbandry and what animals can and can't experience, etc. Spren are manifestations of concepts, so I won't stake my claim in anything here so, @alder24, agree to disagree? I'm sure by the end of the book we'll learn more to have a proper discussion (hopefully avoiding real-life dubious topics on animals)

[Ashbringer he/him]

39 minutes ago, Ninth of the Night said:

Not that I disagree with your points or anything, just want to note that Aux and Sigzil are a very unique case. Armor as well. Sigzil doesn't have active oaths in Sunlit Man, from what I can tell. Yet he can still summon Aux for reasons we can only guess. Presumably a post-dawnshard effect? It burned most of Aux away while welding the remnants to Sigzil's soul... Well that's my guess anyway.

True. I'm not sure if there's many other examples of how Living plate behaves in battle - maybe a Jasnah chapter or a Dalinar vision. But I don't think it's ever implied that it's indestructible outside of Radiant Stormlight efficiency. Also the Heralds were thought to be essentially indestructible with near-unlimited Stormlight, and yet Taln died every Desolation and other Heralds often did as well. They didn't have Shardplate, though.

Zellion's is definitely odd. He thinks he can't bring back his armor, but he also was basically out of Investiture then iirc and may not have been able to repair it even with a normal bond.

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, Wanguu said:

I agree with Elder, but this bleeds into real-life ethics of animal husbandry and what animals can and can't experience, etc. Spren are manifestations of concepts, so I won't stake my claim in anything here so, @alder24, agree to disagree? I'm sure by the end of the book we'll learn more to have a proper discussion (hopefully avoiding real-life dubious topics on animals)

I should clarify that I meant "slavery with extra steps" as a joke and I wasn't thinking this situation is comparable to human slavery, because Lesser Spren are obviously not sapient. I agree, this is comparable to animal farms.

The question I'm asking is if it's possible to avoid trapping spren in gemstones, thus fully avoiding ethical dilemmas of trapping spren in gemstones. I think the answer is yes - turn them directly into fabrials. Or at least I think that's the way Navani should be thinking, because she just discovered that ancient fabrials are manifested spren and she should be working on replicating this process right now. 

[Unhurried he/him]

1 hour ago, Ninth of the Night said:

It's a similar issue I see often in regards to Hoid. Some people seem to think he's basically omniscient, which of course he isn't. He can still be tricked, or killed, and he doesn't know everything. The Ghostbloods likewise are not an unstoppable force. They are quite formidable though.

And like Hoid, they still have a moral code. SA perspectives are shaped by Shallan (who in turn is shaped by Jasnah) feeling significantly under threat, which is understandable, but IIRC the only real time we've seen the Ghostbloods sanction a hit on somebody is Jasnah. I don't think Kalak was intended as an assassination, especially given the interlude indicating an overarching purpose of gaining control over him. Mraize threatened Shallan's family when they were hostages but never properly followed through, even though he must have known the risk Shallan's family would slip from his fingers. 

All of which to say, while this isn't meant to excuse the Ghostblood's actions, I think they do see themselves as pursuing a moral purpose (spelled out more in Mistborn) and so do hold themselves to a moral standard. I'm less worried Shallan will be physically hurt by being discovered, than I am by them e.g. capturing her for use as a hostage against the Kholins, tricking her into doing the wrong thing, or something else beneath the threshold of death but still damaging.

[bmcclure7]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

How are Flamespren doing it willingly? What Navani is doing now is throwing a treat into a cage and locking the gate after a dog runs into it to eat that treat. It's not a willing participation, it's still forced imprisonment, but now with deception and broken trust. Sapience isn't required for a spren to manifest as a Shardplate, Creationspren are quite willing to be manifested as a Shardplate and change based on Shallan's needs, Flamespren should be capable enough to manifest as a fabrial per Navani's instructions. Navani is already commanding Lesser Spren all around her, even if some kind of bond is needed, she should have enough Connection to them to make them into Fabrials.

 

Ghostbloods produce aluminum with electrolysis by this point. More than half of the aluminum available in Era 2 was made and sold by Ghostbloods. TLM ch 40:

 

 

The reason they follow him is because he convinced them he's the right person to be followed. This isn't a legitimacy issue, Gavilar suddenly showing up won't change this, he shouldn't even get the Alethi throne back as he quite literally died. 

 

They found the time to capture Re-Shephir, why not another Unmade? And I personally don't believe you need to be a Radiant to do it, it may be easier with powers, but having proper understanding and strong Connection to an Unmade should be enough. We didn't see Dalinar using his powers when capturing Nergaoul.

1. You’re definitely right about aluminum. Given that they may be going to war soon against at least an entire radiant order they’d be stupid not that call for a lot of it. 
 

2. I think you underestimate how much of an impact gavilar coming back would have. True he did technically die, but there is no president for resurrection in the succession process. And even in the best case, there was some that would argue that he is the legitimate ruler of alethcar. However, given the division that already exist in their society because of the changes then I suspect that there will be a lot of people who support him as a legitimate ruler.  to make matters worse if he comes back as Odiums champion he could be given control over the homeland which would certainly raise his legitimacy. 
 

3. Good point the midnight mother was imprisoned by a light Weaver not a bond smith.

 

As a sidenote, did anyone feel like taking down the mask Lady was too easy? I sure hope the conflict with the ghost bloods doesn’t continue on this way. I’m hoping kel and his crew will have at least a few surprises and secret weapons up their sleeve. at the very least that they have some counter measures that infiltration I mean, there are a secret organization who specializes in infiltrating other organizations they should have some sort of plan in case they get infiltrated.

 

 

Edited October 21, 2024 by bmcclure7

[+Child of Hodor]

4 minutes ago, Unhurried said:

 SA perspectives are shaped by Shallan (who in turn is shaped by Jasnah) feeling significantly under threat, which is understandable, but IIRC the only real time we've seen the Ghostbloods sanction a hit on somebody is Jasnah.

They did try to murder Shallan in WoR. They only killed her carriage driver because Shallan faked being in the carriage. 

They also tried to kill Amaram at the end of WoR, but Taln caught Iyatil's darts out of mid-air. 

Mraize killed that Feurchemist in RoW. 

[Unhurried he/him]

8 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

They did try to murder Shallan in WoR. They only killed her carriage driver because Shallan faked being in the carriage. 

They also tried to kill Amaram at the end of WoR, but Taln caught Iyatil's darts out of mid-air. 

Mraize killed that Feurchemist in RoW. 

Thanks for the correction - I think the main risk remains something non fatal but damaging in the long term, which has worked moderately well for them so far with Shallan (e.g. with gaining access to Kalak), but will be interesting to see how it develops. 

[Wanguu He/Him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

The question I'm asking is if it's possible to avoid trapping spren in gemstones, thus fully avoiding ethical dilemmas of trapping spren in gemstones. I think the answer is yes - turn them directly into fabrials. Or at least I think that's the way Navani should be thinking, because she just discovered that ancient fabrials are manifested spren and she should be working on replicating this process right now.

Ah, that makes more sense. I think Shardplate makes this confusing - yes, it is made from lesser spren, however, there's 10 different types of lesser spren that does one single thing - I don't think we have a reason yet to suspect that each order's plates are different from eachother.

So - we do see the spren manifesting as something, but can they manifest as fabrials? For shardplate, is it actually your bonded spren that is making the lesser spren form a plate? Is it a nahel bond thing?

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I should clarify that I meant "slavery with extra steps" as a joke and I wasn't thinking this situation is comparable to human slavery, because Lesser Spren are obviously not sapient. I agree, this is comparable to animal farms.

The question I'm asking is if it's possible to avoid trapping spren in gemstones, thus fully avoiding ethical dilemmas of trapping spren in gemstones. I think the answer is yes - turn them directly into fabrials. Or at least I think that's the way Navani should be thinking, because she just discovered that ancient fabrials are manifested spren and she should be working on replicating this process right now. 

You’re forgetting that spren fibrals are very limited at least so far. They pretty much only do the surges. Which is useful, but I don’t think you can base your entire technological advancement around the surges at least not without being limited. Additionally, the spree would have to agree to become fabrils and for lesser spren that doesn’t seem to happen outside of shardplate which only seems to become available though a bond. 

3 hours ago, FollowYourMuse said:

I can not guess about 50 years from now, but can say that 50 years ago this would have the same signaling as it does today. In fact we were accustomed to more subtlety and context, so this is would have as obvious back then as it is today.

If you believe that you are fundamentally ignorant. Literally 15 years ago you could’ve said non-binary online and most people would not have known what you were talking about.  It’s always tempting to think that your generations issues will be timelessly relevant. But the truth is no matter how passionate you do you care about something future generations are unlikely to have strong feelings on it one way or another. Tell me what’s your thoughts on Arianism? Or monphitism? Do you have any strong opinions on whether or not Bishop should be appointed by the church or by the state?  Do you even know anything about any of these issues probably not because they’re simply no longer relevant. And even if if you do, I would be surprised if you could ster up any particular passion for any of these issues.

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

As a sidenote, did anyone feel like taking down the mask Lady was too easy? I sure hope the conflict with the ghost bloods doesn’t continue on this way. I’m hoping kel and his crew will have at least a few surprises and secret weapons up their sleeve. at the very least that they have some counter measures that infiltration I mean, there are a secret organization who specializes in infiltrating other organizations they should have some sort of plan in case they get infiltrated.

 I doubt anyone could have seen "Trapping someone in Shardplate" as even a remote possibility. Dead Shardplate is known to them, but Living Shardplate has only just started to appear again, the Ghostbloods wouldn't have much understanding of it and won't be able to prepare for it until they do.

The conflict between Shallan and the Ghostbloods is will probably become more even thanks to Shallan having more of her own resources and powers, plus the Ghostbloods may put up a frightening front but by Kel's own admission they are far from the biggest fish in the sea. Their mystery and anonymity is by far their greatest strength, take that away and they'll much more manageable.

But yeah, I don't see this undercover thing going too well for Shallan, at least in terms of info gathering instead of her safety. 

It'll still be interesting to see though, any info on the Ghostbloods is bound to be interesting even if it's not what Shallan is hoping to get.