Is Nohadon Actually Tanavast?

[teknopathetic he/him]

What originally had my brain go “ping” was the fact that Nohadon could only understand the glyphs that the people were using. Sure, a king doesn’t speak every language, but Tanavast would be extremely fluent in the Glyphs of men. Religion about Honour has people burning glyph wards to connect to their people. 

So what if Nohadon isn’t actually the king of a people, but actually a king of ALL people. 

Now we have some Nohadon information that seemingly doesn’t entirely fit with this, but I think we maybe have a legend that could explain this. The legend of the Moon God that switched with a Queen could be a corruption of Honour trading places with Nohadon to experience life with his people. And then, to everyone’s great shame, they don’t switch back with him. 

Nohadon being Tanavast makes some sense with other details we have. Such as The Way of Kings being a magical text, or Nohadon being more alive in visions. 
 

I know it’s a crack theory, but I can’t help but feel like there is a trick to what’s going on with Nohadon. In the chapters where wr are learning that picking up Honour might be a bad idea, we have epigraphs of someone who abdicated their power. 

[Display-Names-Are-Stupid]

I've wondered about either this, or Nohadon being on the path to taking up Honor. The Stormfather has shown the vision to other people besides Gavilar and Dalinar, possibly not as far back as Nohadon though. But perhaps his abdication and walk were his way of testing himself to see if he felt worthy to take up a Shard and he decided not to? 

[+Crossen]

I think this could fit into the conversation that Cultivation and Taravangian have in I-2 about creating systems that would lead to peace. This was pretty much Nohadon's MO. But would this be "acting directly" which is forbidden to the Shards? Maybe that opened up Tanavast to attack.

[alder24]

4 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

What originally had my brain go “ping” was the fact that Nohadon could only understand the glyphs that the people were using. Sure, a king doesn’t speak every language, but Tanavast would be extremely fluent in the Glyphs of men. Religion about Honour has people burning glyph wards to connect to their people. 

I don't think there are other glyphs scripts corresponding to different languages, glyphs are a Vorin thing (at least now) and there is just one system, symbols are memorized, not read. Everyone on Roshar would use the same symbol to represent the same idea, no matter what language they use. No wonder Nohadon was able to recognize glyphs of those people as those were the same glyphs used in Alethkar. 

[+Crossen]

Quote

I stood in the darkened monastery chamber, its far reaches painted with pools of black where light did not wander. I sat on the floor, thinking of that dark, that Unseen. I could not know, for certain, what was hidden in that night. I suspected there were walls, sturdy and thick, but could I know without seeing? When all was hidden, what could a man rely upon as true?

Candle flames. A dozen candles burned themselves to death on the shelf before me. Each of my breaths made them tremble. To them, I was a behemoth, to frighten and destroy. And yet, if I strayed too close, they could destroy me. My invisible breath, the pulses of life that flowed in and out, could end them freely, while my fingers could not do the same without being repaid in pain.

I understood in a moment of stillness. Those candle flames were like the lives of men. So fragile. So deadly. Left alone, they lit and warmed. Let run rampant, they would destroy the very things they were meant to illuminate. Embryonic bonfires, each bearing a seed of destruction so potent it could tumble cities and dash kings to their knees. In later years, my mind would return to that calm, silent evening, when I had stared at rows of living lights. And I would understand. To be given loyalty is to be infused like a gemstone, to be granted the frightful license to destroy not only one’s self, but all within one’s care.

This excerpt from the in-world TWOK is very telling, especially the second paragraph since it echos the thought from I-2 where they can try to guide the world, but not act directly or open themselves up to attack.

[Immortal Platypus]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

I don't think there are other glyphs scripts corresponding to different languages, glyphs are a Vorin thing (at least now) and there is just one system, symbols are memorized, not read. Everyone on Roshar would use the same symbol to represent the same idea, no matter what language they use. No wonder Nohadon was able to recognize glyphs of those people as those were the same glyphs used in Alethkar. 

like you said, they're a Vorin thing, at least now. Is it possible they weren't back then? I don't know the timeline well enough to say for sure.

[teknopathetic he/him]

1 hour ago, Immortal Platypus said:

like you said, they're a Vorin thing, at least now. Is it possible they weren't back then? I don't know the timeline well enough to say for sure.

Every gender would have written and been literate back then, correct?

They weren’t a way to let men gleam a little bit of written communication like how they work in modern Roshar. 

Assuming people back then still burned glyphs to Honour, maybe they were a religious language? Or perhaps they worked as a way for the poor to have a way to “read”.

Edited October 16, 2024 by teknopathetic

[Lord Spirit he/him]

Wasn’t Nohadon around before Tanavast died?

TWoK was the ancient radiants guide. 

[Zelly]

Did we ever get more info on that one weird vision Dalinar had, where Nohadon was acting unusual and the vision seemed unstable?  What if that was the real guy and the author of the Way of Kings was actually someone completely different?

[Display-Names-Are-Stupid]

24 minutes ago, Lord Spirit said:

Wasn’t Nohadon around before Tanavast died?

TWoK was the ancient radiants guide. 

That's right, he was definitely around before the Recreance, I'd forgotten that detail. 

Maybe Nohadon was a literal 'Child of tanavast' and Kaladin is his descendant? 

I've recently discovered I like the theory that the story about Mishim (the moon) sneaking down to earth and a human Queen taking her place for a night which leads to a child with the blue moon is about Honor having a child with a human woman. Mishim = Cultivation, Nomon = Honor, Salas = Odium

[Isilel]

9 hours ago, Display-Names-Are-Stupid said:

That's right, he was definitely around before the Recreance, I'd forgotten that detail. 

 

Nohadon's youth was before the Radiant Orders were established, but after the appearance of wild Surge-binders, who had caused a lot of trouble in the run-up to the Desolation that he lived through. He referred to it in the first vision where he appeared in.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

Ok I have some thoughts here. Was just chatting on a different thread about something similar. I don't that Nohadon is directly tied to Tanavast, as I'm pretty sure he is from a much older time period (well before Tanavast either dies or gives up the shard). But he is also from way too recent a time to be tied to who Tanavast was before the shattering of Adonalsium. So I think it's safe to say that Nohadon is a separate person.

BUT - what if the way of kings wasn't actually written by Nohadon? What if Tanavast did write it himself and it's something of a symbolic telling of his time as the King of all people and his decision to abdicate? What if part of Tanavast's plan included stepping down and leaving his power in the spiritual realm, but attaching the memories of his time as a shard to the stormfather and a portion of his cognitive shadow as well? And THEN, what if Tanavast altered his own memories or suppressed his identity and secretly went out into the world to live as a regular mortal? This tracks with the story in the in-world Way of Kings epigraphs we are seeing. Though I'd say it's also possible Tanavast as Honor instructed Nohadon to write the book and had him include some specific things that were related to his journey as the Almighty and his (future?) abdication.

So then where is Tanavast today? Well, we happen to know an oath-obsessed and duty-bound character who likes to save people and refuses to do any harm to people. This character also has a son who is the only character in existence to be referred to (frequently) as "Son of Tanavast".... Lirin! 

What do you think, any chance that Lirin is the 'descended' Tanavast trying to fit in, hide, and stay as uninvolved as possible?

[MarcieIsForager She/They]

21 minutes ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Ok I have some thoughts here. Was just chatting on a different thread about something similar. I don't that Nohadon is directly tied to Tanavast, as I'm pretty sure he is from a much older time period (well before Tanavast either dies or gives up the shard). But he is also from way too recent a time to be tied to who Tanavast was before the shattering of Adonalsium. So I think it's safe to say that Nohadon is a separate person.

BUT - what if the way of kings wasn't actually written by Nohadon? What if Tanavast did write it himself and it's something of a symbolic telling of his time as the King of all people and his decision to abdicate? What if part of Tanavast's plan included stepping down and leaving his power in the spiritual realm, but attaching the memories of his time as a shard to the stormfather and a portion of his cognitive shadow as well? And THEN, what if Tanavast altered his own memories or suppressed his identity and secretly went out into the world to live as a regular mortal? This tracks with the story in the in-world Way of Kings epigraphs we are seeing. Though I'd say it's also possible Tanavast as Honor instructed Nohadon to write the book and had him include some specific things that were related to his journey as the Almighty and his (future?) abdication.

So then where is Tanavast today? Well, we happen to know an oath-obsessed and duty-bound character who likes to save people and refuses to do any harm to people. This character also has a son who is the only character in existence to be referred to (frequently) as "Son of Tanavast".... Lirin! 

What do you think, any chance that Lirin is the 'descended' Tanavast trying to fit in, hide, and stay as uninvolved as possible?

I love the addon of Tanavast actually having written TWOK rather than Nohadon. Lirin being Tanavast has been a pet theory of mine forever and i love that its becoming more and more plausible as time goes on. The thing that actually really sold me as of this book is Szeth actuall calling Kaladin by a patronymic something he usually doesn't do for Alethi characters afaik, and Kaladins only other patronymic epiphet being 'Son of Tanavast'

Edited October 16, 2024 by MarcieIsForager

[BinarySecond]

Nohadan's weirdnesss in the vision might be explained by the fact the visions exist in the spiritual realm. Past, present, time and space. All together.

 

Remember when Dalinar stays in the vision and sees the light in the dark? That's probably Honor right?

[CtrlAltDepressed]

51 minutes ago, BinarySecond said:

Remember when Dalinar stays in the vision and sees the light in the dark? That's probably Honor right?

You are a smart cookie

[The Sovereign]

3 hours ago, MarcieIsForager said:

Szeth actuall calling Kaladin by a patronymic something he usually doesn't do for Alethi characters afaik, and Kaladins only other patronymic epiphet being 'Son of Tanavast'

I suspect people are way overthinking this; It seems far more likely to me that he doesn't call Alethi people "Name-Son/Daughter-Name" because he doesn't know peoples' parents' names. Keep in mind the Shin refer to themselves as "Name-Son/Daughter-Name" (I.E. Szeth-Son-Neturo, Neturo-Son-Vallano, Ali-Daughter-Hasweth, etc.). He is very likely calling Kaladin "Kaladin-Son-Lirin" because he has met Lirin and knows he is Kaladin's father. The "Name-Son/Daughter-Name" format is just the standard address of the Shin people.

Edited October 16, 2024 by The Sovereign
Correcting a spelling error.

[Subvisual Haze]

I like this theory.  And it helps explain why we've had so little interacting with Honor/Tanavast, we've talked with him incognito via Nohadon.  I guess there could be a couple distinct ways the Nohadon=Tanavast theory could play out.

1) Nohadon as a person didn't exist historically.  The Way of Kings is an allegory written by Tanavast to guide the newly emerging surgebinder/Radiants.  

2) Nohadon was something like a human avatar of Tanavast on Roshar.  He temporarily abdicated the power of the shard to live as a normal human on Roshar.  Nohadon abdicating the Kingship is a parallel of Tanavast doing the same.

3) Nohadon was a human being who temporarily swapped places with Tanavast.  (moon story, like you mentioned).

[+Crossen]

Any chance that it was actually Cultivation and not Honor that became Nohadon? She is a shape shifting Dragon after all. This could also explain how the Nohadon visions are not seen by the Stormfather; because they are given to Dalinar by Cultivation. The Moon God Mishim that gets switched is also mentioned as being green, Cultivation's color. Cultivation being Nohadon also adds some sly context to the discussion between Cultivation and Taravangian in I-2 where he chides her for not doing anything to help Roshar govern better, but she actually wrote the book on it.

[LiftisaDragon]

To this end, I think there is a particularly interesting quote from Odium during the Unity scene at the end of Oathbringer: 

Quote

“Dalinar stumbled backward. Lightning. That had been lightning. Had it struck him?
No. It had somehow struck only the book. Burned pages fluttered around him, singed and smoldering. It had been blasted right from his hands.
Odium shook his head. “The words of a man long dead, long failed.”

To me, Odiums quote implies a level of familiarity with the Way of Kings author that I find a little surprising if Nohadon is just a “normal” king. Maybe Nohadon is somehow a conduit for the power/teachings of Honor? Or could just be Tanavast himself. 

[Display-Names-Are-Stupid]

I'm leaning towards the chance that Nohadon was the first and literal Son of Tanavast with a human as per the 3 moons story.

[Kesamijr]

Bro I'm ngl, this theory has almost totally convinced me. Especially cuz you know who'd have a double eye? Someone who had been both human and immortal. I personally love the idea of: "Tanavast abdicated his power to someone else, and that person died by Odium's hand as Nohadon (Tanavast) ran around cosplaying humanity." I can also see Nohadon being an avatar of Honor, a child of Honor, or Honor just doing a walkabout and leaving the Stormfather to watch the power.

There's a part of me that wonders too: the Heralds are affected by supernatural insanity, did that also affect Honor? Because there's a part of me that wonders if: Oathpact lets Heralds share pain, that pain is ALSO shared with Honor, leading him to also share their supernatural insanity + regular insanity from being tortured for thousands of years.

Because the Stormfaker theory still FEELS right to me, as much as people think the new WaT chapters disprove it, but I never considered...could the Stormfaker be Tanavast? And the "champion" he's trying to find is a new host/avatar for Honor? We see lots of mentions of the Stormfather's "vastness" in that chapter that we don't really get elsewhere, we know Ishar can't sense regular Herald deaths, but Honor potentially could? It also implies Honor knew about Taln being stuck and was driven as mad as the Heralds because of it? And potentially knew about the Everstorm, and lying about it might've contributed to his death, because we do know that Tanavast was dead by WoK. (Or is alive in hiding if we've been lied to this whole time.) It also means SF never went back on his word, TANAVAST said he'd never work with Kholins again, not SF. Would also mean that maybe what Dalinar summoned was the Tanavastblade when he opened the Oathgate, which is why the Stormfather doesn't even talk about it?

More support potentially, if Tanavast did abandon his post: 

Quote

Tanavast was a fine enough fellow - bought me drinks once - but he was not God. - Wit

 

 

Quote

 

Argent

Are the Heralds champions of Honor in the same way that Tanavast was encouraging Dalinar to force Odium to choose a champion?

Brandon Sanderson

Similar.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

 

 

 

Quote

 

stormlightfan70

At any point did Tanavast relinquish the power of Honor to someone else?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 21, 2015)

 

 

[listerfeend]

On 10/16/2024 at 9:30 AM, CognitiveShadow said:

So then where is Tanavast today? Well, we happen to know an oath-obsessed and duty-bound character who likes to save people and refuses to do any harm to people. This character also has a son who is the only character in existence to be referred to (frequently) as "Son of Tanavast".... Lirin! 

What do you think, any chance that Lirin is the 'descended' Tanavast trying to fit in, hide, and stay as uninvolved as possible?

I think that this WoB completely shuts down that theory

Quote

AlwaysTheNextOne

Does Kaladin have a mixed heritage. Like maybe Yolish and Rosharan?

Brandon Sanderson

One thing I wanted to be very careful about in writing the Stormlight books is to stray away from people needing some kind of past or heritage to be special—it's okay for this to be for some characters, but it becomes a crutch. So your answer is no, he doesn't have much secret to his heritage. (Though his mother grew up wealthy for a darkeyes, and that's a little odd.)

Footnote: Brandon has mentioned Hesina's comparatively wealthier background several times, including mentioning that one of her parents are not darkeyed.
General Reddit 2020 (Dec. 16, 2020)

Not to mention, I really hate Lirin, so I just don't want this to be true at all.

[morcey2]

2 hours ago, listerfeend said:

Not to mention, I really hate Lirin, so I just don't want this to be true at all.

I don't hate Lirin, exactly.  I think he goes to extremes, but I understand his reasoning on most of his views and decisions even though I disagree with many of them.  I also don't think he's Tanavast-in-hiding.  Or Nohadan.  I just think he's a good man trying to do his best with what he's been given. 

I do think that Nohadan isn't Tanavast, but I think that Nohadan is still alive.  Maybe he was a Dawnshard at some point?  Or some other highly invested being somehow.  Not Hoid-level, but up there.  That's just my pet theory without a whole lot of proof, but I'm sticking to it. 

[listerfeend]

1 hour ago, morcey2 said:

I don't hate Lirin, exactly.  I think he goes to extremes, but I understand his reasoning on most of his views and decisions even though I disagree with many of them.  I also don't think he's Tanavast-in-hiding.  Or Nohadan.  I just think he's a good man trying to do his best with what he's been given. 

I do think that Nohadan isn't Tanavast, but I think that Nohadan is still alive.  Maybe he was a Dawnshard at some point?  Or some other highly invested being somehow.  Not Hoid-level, but up there.  That's just my pet theory without a whole lot of proof, but I'm sticking to it. 

I was trying to edit my post earlier, but it wouldn't let me. I was trying to add that I think Lirin has made a lot of progress towards me liking him as a character since the final act of RoW, but up until that point, he really rubbed me the wrong way. That storming man... 

[Kesamijr]

Rereading… RoW pg. 57, Kaladin curses: “What in the Stormfather’s unknown name?”