Confused Posted October 2, 2024 Posted October 2, 2024 (edited) First, my weekly limerick, this time a prediction: Shallan and her spies visit Narak, Find BAM and, with Dal’s help, bring her back. Dal then Ascends. With TOd he contends. And unites those two powers in his Shard pack. A few more points: On Roshar, it’s apparently appropriate to have intimate relations the night before a War Council. Poor Yanagawn. His crown is so heavy, he could use a lift... A long while ago I predicted he would become the post-war King of Roshar. I stand by that. What growth! Who is Colot on Dalinar’s guard who doesn’t want to bond a spren? Has this been discussed before? My guess is he’s an off-worlder who doesn’t want to be bound to Roshar. Maybe even Vasher? Is Colot a pun on “color”? Yeah, the Stormfather acts weird. He usually does. I’ll leave that discussion to others. Edited October 3, 2024 by Confused Changed last limerick line. Still sucks. 2
listerfeend Posted October 2, 2024 Posted October 2, 2024 (edited) 16 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: Side note: Shallan seems to get a burst of Light when swearing her Ideal this book, even though we haven't seen that with her before. Perhaps she got it for her truths in Book 1 but used it all up immediately to transition to Shadesmar? That would then support my idea that none of the other things she said in between have been fully Ideals on their own, since we don't see a similar burst of Light for any of them, but that is adding a layer of speculation to things. Well, if what has been said about being able to swear the 5th right away with a new bond is accurate, then I think we can assume that, thus far, all of the Truths that we have seen Shallan speak were more about bringing Testament back, than they were about progressing her bond with Pattern. So, basically, I think she's been 3rd Ideal this entire time, carried over from childhood. I don't really know if what we saw under the beads with her truth "I am afraid of myself, I always have been" could be described as a burst of Light though. We get a description of Light reflecting of the beads emanating from her eyes. Which is not the same kind of "burst" descriptions we've seen with Kaladin. With Kaladin, he swears an Ideal, and there is a literal BURST of light the surges through him, leaving a Glyph on the ground around him, etc... This was a LOT more subtle than that... I do think her "I'm afraid of myself, I always have been" truth is her 4th Truth, though, and it could be that the effects of swearing an ideal are different between Orders, no glyphs emblazoned upon the ground for Lightweavers. It could also be different because she spoke that Truth in Shadesmar, that could account for the differences as well. Shallan being able to swear all these Truths as a child still makes me extremely uncomfortable...I don't know how a child is even capable of making these kinds of commitments.... Edited October 2, 2024 by listerfeend 2
Lord Spirit he/him Posted October 2, 2024 Posted October 2, 2024 1 minute ago, listerfeend said: Well, if what has been said about being able to swear the 5th right away with a new bond is accurate, then I think we can assume that, thus far, all of the Truths that we have seen Shallan speak were more about bringing Testament back, than they were about progressing her bond with Pattern. So, basically, I think she's been 3rd Ideal this entire time, carried over from childhood. I don't really know if what we saw under the beads with her truth "I am afraid of myself, I always have been" could be described as a burst of Light though. We get a description of Light reflecting of the beads emanating from her eyes. Which is not the same kind of "burst" descriptions we've seen with Kaladin. With Kaladin, he swears an Ideal, and there is a literal BURST of light the surges through him, leaving a Glyph on the ground around him, etc... This was a LOT more subtle than that... I do think her "I'm afraid of myself, I always have been" truth is her 4th Truth, though, and it could be that the effects of swearing an ideal are different between Orders, no glyphs emblazoned upon the ground for Lightweavers. It could also be different because she spoke that Truth in Shadesmar, that could account for the differences as well. Pretty sure there's a WoB out there about Windrunners having more dramatic effects when they swear oaths.
listerfeend Posted October 2, 2024 Posted October 2, 2024 41 minutes ago, Lord Spirit said: Pretty sure there's a WoB out there about Windrunners having more dramatic effects when they swear oaths. I'm sure you're right.. Seems to me there is always a WoB lol 1
JustQuestin2004 he/him Posted October 2, 2024 Posted October 2, 2024 11 hours ago, Confused said: Who is Colot on Dalinar’s guard who doesn’t want to bond a spren? Has this been discussed before? My guess is he’s an off-worlder who doesn’t want to be bound to Roshar. Maybe even Vasher? Is Colot a pun on “color”? Weird, I just looked on the Coppermind. It says that Colot, a captain of the Kholin Army, and is already a Windrunner. Unless this is a different Colot? Maybe this is that Kandra that doesn't work for Harmony that's apparently skulking around Roshar according to several WOBs and she's eaten and replaced poor Colot? Very unclear.
listerfeend Posted October 2, 2024 Posted October 2, 2024 (edited) 4 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said: Weird, I just looked on the Coppermind. It says that Colot, a captain of the Kholin Army, and is already a Windrunner. The coppermind goes on to say that he became a squire, and Adolin talks about him not getting a Spren and deciding to give up. I think the Coppermind is basically lumping Windrunner Squires in with "full fledged" Windrunners in the that opening line However, he is mentioned kind of a lot in these chapters. I wouldn't be surprised to find out he's an Off Worlder of some kind. Perhaps a Ghostblood operative, perhaps the Kandra, there are a lot of options here. Edited October 2, 2024 by listerfeend
+Oltux72 he/him Posted October 2, 2024 Posted October 2, 2024 16 hours ago, Elder said: Shouldn’t Tarevangian still be bound by that? Or is Tarevangian just too new to be afraid of the “dire consequences”? Like Vin, able to overcome Preservations Intent and kill Ati by virtue of being new to her power? Or is he counting on the dire consequences? Does Tarevangian not necessarily care if he survives this (which would make him even more like Vin)? This is based on the silent assumption that Taravangian will actually use the loophole. Merely attacking the location of oath gates is not against the spirit of the agreement. It openly states that both sides have ten final days to improve their positions. The mere existance of the loophole forces the Radiants to commit their forces to the defenses as if two whole kingdoms depended on it. 1
LewsTherinTelescope Posted October 2, 2024 Posted October 2, 2024 1 hour ago, listerfeend said: Well, if what has been said about being able to swear the 5th right away with a new bond is accurate, then I think we can assume that, thus far, all of the Truths that we have seen Shallan speak were more about bringing Testament back, than they were about progressing her bond with Pattern. So, basically, I think she's been 3rd Ideal this entire time, carried over from childhood. Tricky part here is that she doesn't bond Pattern until she's spoken two truths anyway, so we can't actually tell whether they carried over from her childhood or just Way of Kings... Personally, I don't think an oath that is broken can carry over until it's repaired, which in practice would mean repairing them progresses the bond with Pattern similarly to how a new oath would, but the semantics there could be debated. 1 hour ago, listerfeend said: We get a description of Light reflecting of the beads emanating from her eyes. Which is not the same kind of "burst" descriptions we've seen with Kaladin. With Kaladin, he swears an Ideal, and there is a literal BURST of light the surges through him, leaving a Glyph on the ground around him, etc... It's definitely described in a subtler way than Kaladin's, but she says the Words and Light suddenly starts glowing brightly from her eyes, that sounds like a similar idea IMO. For what it's worth, Kaladin's First Ideal was a lot more understated: Quote "Life before death," he whispered. "Strength before weakness. Journey before destination." The First Ideal of the Knights Radiant. He breathed in deeply, and a thick jolt of power shot up his arm. His muscles burned with energy, with the desire to move. The tempest spread within, pushing at his skin, causing his blood to pump in a powerful rhythm. He opened his eyes. Glowing smoke rose around him. He was able to contain much of the Light, holding it in by holding his breath. Might be some variety based on what is dramatically appropriate for the scene. 2 hours ago, listerfeend said: Shallan being able to swear all these Truths as a child still makes me extremely uncomfortable...I don't know how a child is even capable of making these kinds of commitments.... Not well, evidently!
alder24 Posted October 2, 2024 Posted October 2, 2024 18 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: Okay at least we agree about that part lol, makes discussion easier. In that WoB, what Brandon says about the complexity is that she's kind of progressing 1.1 steps and regressing 1 step a lot, not necessarily that she's got two whole separate sets of oaths tracking separately. Also, again, she's lying in the oath about her mother—would that really fully count as a truth? I think it was a necessary step but not the whole deal, and that's why the math is weird. Stormlight RPG spoilers: Spoiler I couldn't find the source of this quote myself: On 8/11/2024 at 11:25 PM, Dofurion said: Though incredibly uncommon, it’s theoretically possible to bond multiple Radiant spren—either two of the same type, or even more uncommonly, of different types (allowing you to join multiple orders). While this game’s default rules only allow each character to join one Radiant path, you and your GM can make an exception if it fits the story. For each spren bond, you must speak and maintain new oaths as described below. Same Type of Spren. If you’re bonding a second spren of the same type as your existing spren bond, you don’t need to choose your existing Ideal talents a second time, but you must once again speak the Ideals in a unique way under new circumstances, reflecting how you’ve changed since you swore the oaths a previous time. To do so, begin with the goal “Speak the First Ideal” and complete it like you did previously, progressing through the Second and later Ideals until you reach an Ideal you haven’t yet spoken. From that point on, any higher Ideals you swear can count toward all your spren bonds of that type—though each spren must accept the words. You don’t gain additional powers from bonding with two or more spren of the same type, with one exception: once you complete the goal “Speak the Third Ideal,” you can summon two of your spren who accepted those Words, allowing you to dual-wield Radiant Shardblades, and you can summon both of them using a single Interact action. Even if you bond a spren of the same type, you need to swear new, unique Ideals, reflecting on how you've changed since you said them to the first spren. You might not have changed much and be ready to swear all the way up to the 5th Ideal, but if you changed, you need new Oaths. Well, Shallan's Truth's with Pattern are all about how she changed since her bond with Testament, uncovering all truths she hid behind lies, reflecting on what happened to her since her bond with Testament. "I killed my father," "I killed my mother," "I killed my spren" - that's what happened to her since she swore those Ideals to Testament. Testament's first Truths were "spoken easily with the solemnity and wonder of a child" (RoW ch 93), those are the ones she broke, those are the ones she needs to reconstruct. For this the Truth "I'm terrified" fits the most and even in WaT ch 9 Shallan admits that she always has been terrified - it's not something new, it's not a change, it's something that existed during her bond with Testament. She said that in WoK, she took that step forward, but then she repressed it, maybe didn't want to fully comprehend it and took a step backward - that's why she needed to say it again in WaT, this time with the full understanding and Intent behind it. The same maybe applies to "I killed my mother" - she said the Truth, it was accepted, but since then she tried her hardest to repress it, which was a step backward. It wasn't enough to break her bond or nullify this Ideal. I highly doubt you can have an Ideal accepted but then fall below it, but she took a step back after taking a step forward. Maybe those two things are the reason why she always struggled with Soulcasting? She did it with Testament in WoK, but she regressed, just like she regressed with Pattern later? 18 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: I don't mean saying it before using powers, I mean Shallan never says it in the modern day at all. So did Eshonai? We've never seen her said the First Ideal on pages, yet the Stormfather accepted her Second Ideal. Kaladin said it for the first time in WoK ch 59 - a looong time after he started to bond with Syl. Lift also never said those words on pages. I think living by the First Ideal is enough, you don't have to say it out loud, you need to embrace them. Or maybe she did say them some time before WoK started, we just didn't see this happening on pages (I prefer the former). 18 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: Side note: Shallan seems to get a burst of Light when swearing her Ideal this book, even though we haven't seen that with her before. Perhaps she got it for her truths in Book 1 but used it all up immediately to transition to Shadesmar? That would then support my idea that none of the other things she said in between have been fully Ideals on their own, since we don't see a similar burst of Light for any of them, but that is adding a layer of speculation to things. I wouldn't call it a burst of light, rather just light from her glowing eyes being reflected by beads - glowing eyes are normal when you hold a lot of Stormlight in your body. No burst of power, no glyph and frost appeared - the same is true for other Radiants when they swear their Oaths, like Lift or Venli (except Windrunners). None of them get a burst of power or Stormlight after swearing a new Ideal. Even when Dalinar spoke the First and Second Ideal nothing happened. Shallan however did a powerful Lightweaving afterwards, I wouldn't be surprised if she just inhaled all Stormlight she had with her - hence glowing eyes. Actually, she used so much Stormlight that she ran out in her next chapter. Looks like substantiation requires a lot of Stormlight. WaT ch 9: Quote He frowned as the little cavern started to glow. Light reflecting in each bead. Light coming from Shallan’s eyes. Radiant formed behind the Heavenly One, made of Stormlight [...] WaT ch 11: Quote Shallan flopped backward, almost completely out of Light. A moment later Drehy stepped over. “This your doing, Shallan?” he asked, rapping on the wall of the room. 17 hours ago, Elder said: I’m hanging up on Tarevangian’s exploitation of loopholes. Wit says Rayse wouldn’t and couldn’t because he promised not to. Reveal hidden contents “Yes,” Wit said. “And that’s why I’m an idiot. Not because I missed the intricacies of the legal code—but because this isn’t something that Rayse could ever do. It’s not only against his nature, it’s something he promised he would not do. Even without a formal covenant, a god cannot break that kind of promise without dire consequences.” Shouldn’t Tarevangian still be bound by that? Or is Tarevangian just too new to be afraid of the “dire consequences”? Like Vin, able to overcome Preservations Intent and kill Ati by virtue of being new to her power? Or is he counting on the dire consequences? Does Tarevangian not necessarily care if he survives this (which would make him even more like Vin)? This wasn't a formal Oath, which does allow Taravangian to argue he's not breaking it or maybe that he's not bound by it. The wording of this promise is vague anyway, RoW ch 112: Quote “I am no fool, and you are a man of honor. We will both approach this contest in good faith, Dalinar. This isn’t some deal with a Voidbringer from your myths, where one tricks the other with some silly twist of language. A willing champion from each of us and a fight to the death. They will meet on the top of Urithiru. No tricks, no lies.” Spoiler Nameless36 All the Shards basically agreed not to settle on the same planet. Six of them - that we know of - immediately, basically broke that. Brandon Sanderson So... they did not make an oath to it. There was a suggestion made... and perhaps the people who made the suggestion did not understand that, if you want the Shards to do something, you need an actual oath. And they did not get one. Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019) 11 hours ago, Confused said: Who is Colot on Dalinar’s guard who doesn’t want to bond a spren? Has this been discussed before? My guess is he’s an off-worlder who doesn’t want to be bound to Roshar. Maybe even Vasher? Is Colot a pun on “color”? He was mentioned for the first time in OB ch 9: Quote “Colot?” Dalinar said, looking toward the lighteyed captain who led the soldiers here. “You’re an archer, aren’t you? Fifth Battalion?” “Yes, sir!” “We have you scouting the tower with Bridge Four?” Dalinar asked. “The Windrunners needed extra feet, sir, and access to more scouts and scribes for maps. My archers are mobile. Figured it was better than doing parade drills in the cold, so I volunteered my company.” I think he just felt useless waiting for a spren to bond, when he could serve Dalinar in a different role instead. He looks like a man of action. You don't get to be a Radiant because of cool powers, you do it because you want to help - and if Colot was unable to become a full Radiant, maybe he chose to help in a different way. But this does raise an eyebrow. 3
LewsTherinTelescope Posted October 2, 2024 Posted October 2, 2024 6 minutes ago, alder24 said: We've never seen her said the First Ideal on pages, yet the Stormfather accepted her Second Ideal. She got personal attention from the Stormfather. 4 minutes ago, alder24 said: Lift also never said those words on pages. It's implied that despite Lift playing dumb she's actually sworn stuff: Spoiler She set Gawx on his back, face toward the sky. He wasn't really anything to her, that was true. They’d barely just met, and he’d been a fool. She’d told him to go back. But this was who she was, who she had to be. I will remember those who have been forgotten. That said, I do actually agree saying the Ideals out loud is less important than living them anyway, so consider the above more Devil's advocate arguments. My problem is that if as you're proposing she has to reach each level twice, how else do you determine what re-swearing the First a second time looks like if not the Words? 18 minutes ago, alder24 said: Stormlight RPG spoilers: Reveal hidden contents I couldn't find the source of this quote myself: On 8/11/2024 at 4:25 PM, Dofurion said: Though incredibly uncommon, it’s theoretically possible to bond multiple Radiant spren—either two of the same type, or even more uncommonly, of different types (allowing you to join multiple orders). While this game’s default rules only allow each character to join one Radiant path, you and your GM can make an exception if it fits the story. For each spren bond, you must speak and maintain new oaths as described below. Same Type of Spren. If you’re bonding a second spren of the same type as your existing spren bond, you don’t need to choose your existing Ideal talents a second time, but you must once again speak the Ideals in a unique way under new circumstances, reflecting how you’ve changed since you swore the oaths a previous time. To do so, begin with the goal “Speak the First Ideal” and complete it like you did previously, progressing through the Second and later Ideals until you reach an Ideal you haven’t yet spoken. From that point on, any higher Ideals you swear can count toward all your spren bonds of that type—though each spren must accept the words. You don’t gain additional powers from bonding with two or more spren of the same type, with one exception: once you complete the goal “Speak the Third Ideal,” you can summon two of your spren who accepted those Words, allowing you to dual-wield Radiant Shardblades, and you can summon both of them using a single Interact action. Expand Even if you bond a spren of the same type, you need to swear new, unique Ideals, reflecting on how you've changed since you said them to the first spren. You might not have changed much and be ready to swear all the way up to the 5th Ideal, but if you changed, you need new Oaths. Well, Shallan's Truth's with Pattern are all about how she changed since her bond with Testament, uncovering all truths she hid behind lies, reflecting on what happened to her since her bond with Testament. "I killed my father," "I killed my mother," "I killed my spren" - that's what happened to her since she swore those Ideals to Testament. Testament's first Truths were "spoken easily with the solemnity and wonder of a child" (RoW ch 93), those are the ones she broke, those are the ones she needs to reconstruct. For this the Truth "I'm terrified" fits the most and even in WaT ch 9 Shallan admits that she always has been terrified - it's not something new, it's not a change, it's something that existed during her bond with Testament. She said that in WoK, she took that step forward, but then she repressed it, maybe didn't want to fully comprehend it and took a step backward - that's why she needed to say it again in WaT, this time with the full understanding and Intent behind it. The same maybe applies to "I killed my mother" - she said the Truth, it was accepted, but since then she tried her hardest to repress it, which was a step backward. It wasn't enough to break her bond or nullify this Ideal. I highly doubt you can have an Ideal accepted but then fall below it, but she took a step back after taking a step forward. Maybe those two things are the reason why she always struggled with Soulcasting? She did it with Testament in WoK, but she regressed, just like she regressed with Pattern later? [RPG] Spoiler I am aware of that (it's from here btw), but I don't think it matches what we see in the text, and elsewhere on the same page the "Forsaking Your Ideals" section similarly doesn't fit the book, so the bond rules seem to be more gamified and need to be taken with a grain of salt. The dual-bond section is also an aside explicitly not part of the "default rules", casting more doubt on its precise canonicity. That said, if we do follow the RPG rules here, it tells us Radiants of all orders receive renewing Stormlight whenever they swear an Ideal, which brings us back to my other argument about that. Also, if we assume for the sake of discussion that you are correct and her bonds are at separate Ideal levels, Brandon actually lists the truth about her spren as part of reconstructing her old oaths, so that would be a Testament Ideal rather than Pattern Ideal: Spoiler enceladus_47 Does Shallan's "I killed my spren" count as a truth? Brandon Sanderson I'm gonna leave up to theorizing, figuring out the timeline that's going on with Shallan. What we can say is that Shallan is reconstructing, in many cases, oaths she has said before. And it is working slightly differently than someone who is saying new oaths. And indeed, saying she killed her spren is one of those steps. I'll leave it to you to try and parse through that. It's actually pretty complicated. We have a nice big page explaining all of this stuff internally, to make sure that we're keeping it all straight. Because she has violated oaths and reconstructed them, is basically what's happening. And she is regressing, and she's doing a... 1.1 steps forward, 1 step back, sort of thing, kind of frequently. 4 minutes ago, alder24 said: Kaladin said it for the first time in WoK ch 59 - a looong time after he started to bond with Syl. Again, not talking about before you get powers. 9 minutes ago, alder24 said: Or maybe she did say them some time before WoK started, we just didn't see this happening on pages She didn't bond Pattern until the boat, so that wouldn't actually solve the inconsistency I'm trying to point out, which is that if you're proposing she has to reach each level twice—once to repair the old bond, once to establish the new one—then she would have to reach the First twice too, and at least one would have to be after starting to bond him. (To be clear, she definitely did say the First Ideal as a child, there's a reference to it at some point. I'm proposing it carried over under "one track" theory, and arguing that it is problematic for the "two tracks" theory that she hasn't re-sworn it, that's all.) 16 minutes ago, alder24 said: I wouldn't call it a burst of light, rather just light from her glowing eyes being reflected by beads - glowing eyes are normal when you hold a lot of Stormlight in your body. Right, but look at the quote again: Spoiler He frowned as the little cavern started to glow. Light reflecting in each bead. Light coming from Shallan’s eyes. It wasn't glowing, she says the Words, it begins glowing. That implies she got more Light at the same time she said the Words. 1
enceladus_47 Does Shallan's "I killed my spren" count as a truth? Brandon Sanderson I'm gonna leave up to theorizing, figuring out the timeline that's going on with Shallan. What we can say is that Shallan is reconstructing, in many cases, oaths she has said before. And it is working slightly differently than someone who is saying new oaths. And indeed, saying she killed her spren is one of those steps. I'll leave it to you to try and parse through that. It's actually pretty complicated. We have a nice big page explaining all of this stuff internally, to make sure that we're keeping it all straight. Because she has violated oaths and reconstructed them, is basically what's happening. And she is regressing, and she's doing a... 1.1 steps forward, 1 step back, sort of thing, kind of frequently.
Lenth Posted October 2, 2024 Posted October 2, 2024 On 9/30/2024 at 10:21 AM, Diomedes said: Feels so good to have old Shallan from WoR back. We know the actual loophole now, but my guess is, there is a second one, they have not figuered out yet. The Reshi king feels like a spuy or assassin in disguise. Nobody knows how the actual king of the Reshi islands looks like exactly. I definitely think Taravangian has another loophole about the contest up his sleeve. I don't think I can wait another two months to find out...
+robardin he/him Posted October 2, 2024 Posted October 2, 2024 2 minutes ago, Lenth said: I definitely think Taravangian has another loophole about the contest up his sleeve. I don't think I can wait another two months to find out... I agree. This "loophole" they've found so far, in terms of Team Odium "keeping what we've gained" in the days before the Contest meaning "if we can seize the capital, the 'seat of power', we can claim their entire country under the Alethi Rules of Acquisition", feels like a ruse unto itself. I mean yes, it's still a worthwhile thing to pursue on the surface. But it doesn'f fit the description of Taravangian thinking to himself that "the way to win was to ensure that whatever the outcome, you were satisified? ... Dalinar had set himself up to fail." Not "Dalinar had given him a chance to control all of Roshar even if his Champion lost, except for Alethkar and Herdaz per specific agreement, and via a specific interpretation based on the fact that the Bondsmith who agreed to the terms is Alethi". No, Taravangian's real insight has yet to be revealed, or I'll be quite disappointed. Besides, there's a fairly obvious loophole to the loophole. If the "Alethi Legal Codes" really are the implied and (Shardic Oath level enforced) parameters for this agreement, then why not move their "seats of power" to Urithiru? "Alethkar, Azir, and Thaylen are now declared to have their 'seats of power' be wherever the Queen/Prime is seated", that being in that conference room in Urithiru. That would definitely hold out longer than ten days. And regarding why Colot went from Windrunner squire to "normal lighteyed Captain in the Cobalt Guard" again, 1 hour ago, alder24 said: I think [Colot] just felt useless waiting for a spren to bond, when he could serve Dalinar in a different role instead. He looks like a man of action. You don't get to be a Radiant because of cool powers, you do it because you want to help - and if Colot was unable to become a full Radiant, maybe he chose to help in a different way. But this does raise an eyebrow. I wonder who he had been squire to. What if it had been Teft, or another Windrunner who died in action, and he lost the squire bond when the Radiant died and couldn't bring himself to form that kind of attachment to another person again?
Isilel Posted October 2, 2024 Posted October 2, 2024 (edited) 14 hours ago, Confused said: Who is Colot on Dalinar’s guard who doesn’t want to bond a spren? Colot, a former captain of archers, was one of the earliest Windrunner squire hopefuls who hadn't been Bridgemen. But IIRC we never saw him successfully inhale stormlight, so maybe he just failed to truly become a squire and gave up. Which is why he needed some other position. Or maybe he had been one of Teft's and didn't want to switch to another knight? Edited October 2, 2024 by Isilel 2
GudThymes he/him Posted October 2, 2024 Posted October 2, 2024 I feel like Colot is intended to be a device to show Adolin being a foil for Dalinar right now. The conversation to Shallan in Oathbringer? About the importance of treating your guards well and giving them authority by letting them guard you? Well Dalinar left Colot behind for the wind runners. Yet Adolin remembers him and spends time with him giving him importance. I felt that Colot left the wind runners because he couldn't commit to their order, he was left behind during the betrayal on the tower and has lost his importance to Dalinar slowly over the course of the series. But now we have Adolin swoop him embodying the ethos of the edgedancers. I highly doubt Colot to be a worldhopper (at least yet). 2
FollowYourMuse she/her Posted October 2, 2024 Posted October 2, 2024 48 minutes ago, GudThymes said: I feel like Colot is intended to be a device to show Adolin being a foil for Dalinar right now. The conversation to Shallan in Oathbringer? About the importance of treating your guards well and giving them authority by letting them guard you? Well Dalinar left Colot behind for the wind runners. Yet Adolin remembers him and spends time with him giving him importance. I felt that Colot left the wind runners because he couldn't commit to their order, he was left behind during the betrayal on the tower and has lost his importance to Dalinar slowly over the course of the series. But now we have Adolin swoop him embodying the ethos of the edgedancers. I highly doubt Colot to be a worldhopper (at least yet). I agree, while Colot could be a GB or other secret or plant, this could just have been to show not everyone who tries is becoming a radiant, and to give Adolin a chance to show Edge Dancer traits. Which we see with him and Shallan, With Colot, with Prime Yanagawn in the Lift, and then again Listening to him and Fen on his Dad, even when he did not agree or thought they would/should say something different. 1
Dofurion Posted October 2, 2024 Posted October 2, 2024 2 hours ago, GudThymes said: I felt that Colot left the wind runners because he couldn't commit to their order Given his behavior, wouldn't he be better off as Stoneward? 1
alder24 Posted October 2, 2024 Posted October 2, 2024 (edited) 5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: She got personal attention from the Stormfather. And? What do you want to say by this? The fact that the Stormfather accepted her 2nd Ideal means her 1st Ideal had to be accepted some time in the past, yet we didn't see her say those words. 5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: It's implied that despite Lift playing dumb she's actually sworn stuff: That's the second Ideal, not the first one, sworn when she revived Gawx, not earlier. Again, that was my point, she didn't say the First Ideal on pages, yet she was able to say the Second one. Edgedancer ch 5: Quote I will remember those who have been forgotten. She’d sworn that oath as she’d saved Gawx’s life 5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: My problem is that if as you're proposing she has to reach each level twice, how else do you determine what re-swearing the First a second time looks like if not the Words? Living by those words. Accepting them, embracing them, but most importantly probably the right intent. Intention to restore broken Oath, intention of accepting another bond. If embracing the First Ideal is enough to have it accepted, then if there is a second spren willing to bond you (which is the hardest part of having the double bond), that should be enough to have this Ideal accepted. Or maybe, because Shallan didn't fully break her bond, she carried the First Ideal with her, so she didn't have to rewear it. You raised a good point and I don't have a compelling answer for you. 5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: [RPG] Hide contents I am aware of that (it's from here btw), but I don't think it matches what we see in the text, and elsewhere on the same page the "Forsaking Your Ideals" section similarly doesn't fit the book, so the bond rules seem to be more gamified and need to be taken with a grain of salt. The dual-bond section is also an aside explicitly not part of the "default rules", casting more doubt on its precise canonicity. That said, if we do follow the RPG rules here, it tells us Radiants of all orders receive renewing Stormlight whenever they swear an Ideal, which brings us back to my other argument about that. Also, if we assume for the sake of discussion that you are correct and her bonds are at separate Ideal levels, Brandon actually lists the truth about her spren as part of reconstructing her old oaths, so that would be a Testament Ideal rather than Pattern Ideal: Hide contents enceladus_47 Does Shallan's "I killed my spren" count as a truth? Brandon Sanderson I'm gonna leave up to theorizing, figuring out the timeline that's going on with Shallan. What we can say is that Shallan is reconstructing, in many cases, oaths she has said before. And it is working slightly differently than someone who is saying new oaths. And indeed, saying she killed her spren is one of those steps. I'll leave it to you to try and parse through that. It's actually pretty complicated. We have a nice big page explaining all of this stuff internally, to make sure that we're keeping it all straight. Because she has violated oaths and reconstructed them, is basically what's happening. And she is regressing, and she's doing a... 1.1 steps forward, 1 step back, sort of thing, kind of frequently. YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020) Cosmere RPG spoilers: Spoiler I do agree, we should take all of that with a grain of salt. However I think that swearing Oaths for a second bond of the same type by reflecting on how you've changed since then fits very well to the theme of Knights Radiant. I think it's very likely this is close to the canon mechanism of double bonding. As for the WoB, I'm not sure how to interpret it. I think "I killed my spren" was a step necessary for Oath's reconstruction, but it wasn't a resworn Oath. Shallan could not have reconstructed her bond with Testament any further without finally admitting that she killed her. So it was a step towards reconstruction, but it wasn't Testament's Oath. But your interpretation is also a valid line of reasoning. However, I would not take this WoB too literally - it's vague and leaves a lot of room for speculation on purpose. 5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: She didn't bond Pattern until the boat, so that wouldn't actually solve the inconsistency I'm trying to point out, which is that if you're proposing she has to reach each level twice—once to repair the old bond, once to establish the new one—then she would have to reach the First twice too, and at least one would have to be after starting to bond him. (To be clear, she definitely did say the First Ideal as a child, there's a reference to it at some point. I'm proposing it carried over under "one track" theory, and arguing that it is problematic for the "two tracks" theory that she hasn't re-sworn it, that's all.) I don't agree. The bond was already being formed in WoK, if not even earlier - Pattern was observing her this entire time from CR. She definitely said "I killed my father" to Pattern. Saying again the First Ideal isn't the problem as I believe you don't have to say it, just living by it is enough. 5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: Right, but look at the quote again: Hide contents He frowned as the little cavern started to glow. Light reflecting in each bead. Light coming from Shallan’s eyes. It wasn't glowing, she says the Words, it begins glowing. That implies she got more Light at the same time she said the Words. Yes, she probably got more light from spheres in her pouch. Brandon specifically called Kaladin exploding with light a function of Windrunners. This isn't something that happens to other Orders - Lift, Szeth or Venli never exploded with light: Spoiler Questioner What's with Kaladin being special with his oaths that he explodes with power every time he says it? Brandon Sanderson That is a function of Windrunners being very close to Bondsmiths, which has certain effects. Questioner Would other Windrunners also do that, as well? Brandon Sanderson Yep. Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017) How does "one track" theory function with reconstructing Oaths? She said all 5 Oaths to Pattern and she repeated "I'm terrified" in WaT as a reconstruction of her broken Oath, right? So by what words would she now reconstruct another Oath? Won't she need to repeat "I killed my father" now? Then "I killed my mother?" If she does this in WaT, then it's settled, but if she says a totally new truth, then the "two track" theory is correct. Edit: 4 hours ago, robardin said: I wonder who he had been squire to. What if it had been Teft, or another Windrunner who died in action, and he lost the squire bond when the Radiant died and couldn't bring himself to form that kind of attachment to another person again? If he was Teft's squire and lost his bond due to his and Phendorana death, then Adolin would not have known that Colot left Windrunners - Teft died a day or two before, when Adolin was still in Lasting Integrity. Colot must have decided to leave Windrunners before Adolin went on his diplomatic mission. Edited October 2, 2024 by alder24 1
Windrunner22 Posted October 2, 2024 Posted October 2, 2024 4 hours ago, robardin said: I agree. This "loophole" they've found so far, in terms of Team Odium "keeping what we've gained" in the days before the Contest meaning "if we can seize the capital, the 'seat of power', we can claim their entire country under the Alethi Rules of Acquisition", feels like a ruse unto itself. Besides, there's a fairly obvious loophole to the loophole. If the "Alethi Legal Codes" really are the implied and (Shardic Oath level enforced) parameters for this agreement, then why not move their "seats of power" to Urithiru? "Alethkar, Azir, and Thaylen are now declared to have their 'seats of power' be wherever the Queen/Prime is seated", that being in that conference room in Urithiru. I've been pondering this same train of thought @robardin, but now I am wondering if Urithiru itself could be another loophole. What if the 3-target attack is a feint for T-Odium to make a play for Urithiru using the Oathgates? What if Odium conquers Urithiru before the contest of champions? Even if Dalinar is able to win the contest, only Alethkar and Herdaz will be returned to the good guys. Urithiru would not be returned as it would be part of the lands Odium conquered prior to the deadline. Earlier in Ch.14 we get this line from Navani/Sibling: Quote With that, she hoped her home—now an extension of her very self—would be safe from any further attacks by the enemy. It should be, the Sibling said in her mind. They rarely dared infiltrate me before. My Light not only knocks Fused unconscious, it makes the Radiants here virtually invincible. To me, this reads like foreshadowing that T-Odium's forces WILL try to infiltrate the tower. What if they send the Skybreakers through the Oathgate? As Radiants their powers will still work at the tower and they would even be "virtually invincible". They could try to sabotage the Sibling/tower's defenses with anti-light or some other kind of magical shenanigans. 1
Master Silver Posted October 2, 2024 Posted October 2, 2024 Just a couple things on the chapters, I find the way the Stormfather is acting to be completely insane. He is like a 12 year old thinking he has all the answers and knows what is best. He has withheld vital information from his bonded Radiant. The Stormfather is not Honor. And the merger of Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow with him seems like perhaps there wasn't a lot of Tanavast left when it happened. In terms of all of these new people being introduced, I think that some will be Ghostblood plants, but others will be new Radiants that perhaps tip the scales in our hero's favor. I don't know that I trust the sole Dustbringer. It is possible that the Skybreakers flip back to the Radiants mid-battle if Kaladin can come through and restore the oath pact. Can a shard be splintered in two?
Rorzikel Posted October 3, 2024 Posted October 3, 2024 (edited) 15 hours ago, listerfeend said: Shallan being able to swear all these Truths as a child still makes me extremely uncomfortable...I don't know how a child is even capable of making these kinds of commitments.... It should make you uncomfortable, but I'm unsure why you think a child is incapable of saying ideals. We put legal and moral restrictions on children to protect them from harm, not because they're incapable of willingly making a poor decision. Example, many countries have age limitations on alcohol consumption/purchase. This is not because a teen or even a young child couldn't understand what alcohol is and still want to get drunk, but because a barrier to entry might keep a lot of kids away from alcohol until they mature. It is certainly unethical for the spren to accept even a valid ideal from a little kid, but at one point Pattern was struggling to comprehend the concept of eating food, so I doubt he would have had a clearcut understanding on informed consent. Edited October 3, 2024 by Rorzikel 2
LewsTherinTelescope Posted October 3, 2024 Posted October 3, 2024 8 hours ago, alder24 said: And? What do you want to say by this? The fact that the Stormfather accepted her 2nd Ideal means her 1st Ideal had to be accepted some time in the past, yet we didn't see her say those words. I'm actually gonna drop this point, because as said I was mostly playing Devil's advocate, and this discussion is complicated enough already without that lol. 8 hours ago, alder24 said: Edgedancer ch 5: Quote I will remember those who have been forgotten. She’d sworn that oath as she’d saved Gawx’s life Oh interesting, I forgot that line. I'd taken the one in the interlude as her remembering something she'd already said, in which case she could have simply sworn the First beforehand too, but nvm. 8 hours ago, alder24 said: Intention to restore broken Oath, intention of accepting another bond. Eshonai had no Intent to form a bond. 8 hours ago, alder24 said: The bond was already being formed in WoK, if not even earlier - Pattern was observing her this entire time from CR. If he was still in the Cognitive, would the bond have actually started yet? 8 hours ago, alder24 said: She definitely said "I killed my father" to Pattern. The voice in that scene repeats the "what are you?" line from the voice she said "I'm terrified" to, and she doesn't comment on it sounding different or anything, so I'm inclined to think it's the same entity in both cases. 8 hours ago, alder24 said: Yes, she probably got more light from spheres in her pouch. Didn't she already take in that Light? 8 hours ago, alder24 said: Lift, Szeth or Venli never exploded with light Lift can't use Stormlight in the first place, but she does get an effect she compares to a jolt of power during her conversation with Arclo as soon as she comes to the conclusion I believe to be her Third Ideal (which fits with her Cognitive focus) [ED 18]: Spoiler Lift hesitated, then patted him. She just … she just had to accept it, didn't she? In a moment, she felt relief akin to her terror. She was in darkness, but well, maybe she’d manage anyway. Lift stood up. "I left Azir because I was afraid. I came to Tashikk because that’s where my starvin’ feet took me. But tonight … tonight I decided to be here." "What is this nonsense?" Arclo asked. "How does it help my philosophy?" She cocked her head as a realization struck her, like a jolt of power. Huh. Fancy that, would you? "I … didn’t heal that boy," she whispered. Szeth gets snow for his Third similar to Kaladin's frost, though you're right no Stormlight is mentioned (perhaps he's already got enough he doesn't notice, or perhaps he for some reason only got part of the effect) [OB 121]: Spoiler "Not yet. I swear to follow the will of Dalinar Kholin. This is my oath." At the Words, snow crystallized around him in the air, then fluttered down. He felt a surge of something. Approval? From the hidden spren who only rarely showed itself to him, even still. The book cuts away from Venli immediately after she finishes each of her Ideals, so we don't know whether she would've got one for her Second or not. Probably didn't for the First or else she would have been found out, but Kaladin doesn't get it for his First either so I don't think that's terribly indicative. (Something that has bugged me, actually—Kaladin doesn't get bursts of Stormlight from nowhere in tWoK/WoR, we always see him explicitly breathing it in from nearby gems whenever he swears an Ideal! But the later books act as if it's a thing, so I guess it is now even though that doesn't match what the earlier books portray...) 8 hours ago, alder24 said: Brandon specifically called Kaladin exploding with light a function of Windrunners. Brandon says a lot of things that are turning out to be false lately Less flippantly, I think he's decided to smooth out some of the differences here. For example, he used to say some orders don't get squires: Spoiler Argent There is a person on the forums who noticed that Shallan has this awesome Memory thing going on, Jasnah seems to have a really powerful, kind of, geolocation thing going on, Kaladin is a really good fighter - are those just their traits, or is there something supernatural going on? Brandon Sanderson There is something supernatural going on. Each Order... Well, how about this. If you look at the scholar interpretations, there are some scholars who think that these things are not supernatural, in the past, and some who said they definitely are. But many, if you look, many Lightweavers had powerful mnemonic abilities. Argent So it's definitely tied to the Orders? Brandon Sanderson It's tied to the Orders. Now, I am not going to say that you've got them all 100% correct, but each Order, there are things that come with Order, things that do not add up from simple the "you get this power plus this power," there is something else going on. And I would say that for Windrunners, watch the number of squires and the power of the squires... is abnormal for the Windrunners. Argent And each Order's squires are somehow different from the other Orders'? Brandon Sanderson Yeeeaaaah... some Orders don't have them, [that] is the difference. Argent But some have more? Brandon Sanderson Yeah. Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014) But it's since been confirmed they all do: Spoiler Dan Wells Sixth Epoch, Year 31, Shashaches 6.3.1. Bondsmiths Bondsmiths are, well... different. For starters, there are only three of them at a time, because there are only three spren that can grant Bondsmith powers. Seems kind of strange for a Radiant Order whose whole job is to bring people together, right? But, see, that's where the strangeness continues. Every Order takes squires; that's nothing new. But Bondsmiths sometimes have whole groups of servants who swear oaths but gain no powers at all. Can you imagine? I think there's something beautifully pure about that. They might be the only people in any Order who've ever taken the oaths for purely selfless reasons. They can't do any Surgebinding, they don't get spren, they just... take the oaths. Because oaths are important, and the values they swear to uphold are worth upholding. [...] #SayTheWords (Feb. 28, 2024) He also said the number of Ideals needed to get a Blade varies by order: Spoiler Kythis Is there a specific number of the ideals that they have to do before they can get the Shardblade? Brandon Sanderson It depends on the Order. Words of Radiance Omaha signing (March 13, 2014) But so far it's been confirmed that fully half of them follow the exact same structure for this. And conveniently we have practically zero exposure to a normal Radiant from any order but Windrunners, so there's not actually much in the earlier books you have to explain away to homogenize the Light burst as well. 8 hours ago, alder24 said: How does "one track" theory function with reconstructing Oaths? She said all 5 Oaths to Pattern and she repeated "I'm terrified" in WaT as a reconstruction of her broken Oath, right? I think there's a miscommunication here. I don't think she's repeating them, I think her oaths are counting for both the way a squire's oaths also count for their spren bond when they graduate without needing any extra steps. I would say her Ideals are: "Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination." She swears it as a child, mostly breaks it by rejecting Testament, half resurrects it by her uplifting her brothers, and gradually rebuilds it further as she becomes a more active player. (Perhaps she completely restores it when she summons Testament into the safe? Not sure.) She admits that beneath the facade of forced humor, "I'm terrified." This isn't necessarily something she was consciously denying, but she always kept a buffer to avoid the fear until now. She admits to killing her father. Notably this is not just a simple statement of fact, she also has to face the shameful view of herself due to it that she has never been willing to acknowledge before, even as a joke—"I'm a murderer." She admits how fundamentally she's afraid of not just the world, but "most of all, of myself". This is her deepest pain, needing a lot of "1.1 steps forward, 1 step back" moments along the way before she's ready. Off the top of my head (I'm sure there are other baby steps I'm forgetting) I think the progression is roughly as follows: [pre-book, quote from W&T 3] She admits that she has a Blade, and summons it instantly into the safe which requires implicitly admitting the whole thing, but even in that moment she's denying the evidence of her own senses and memories. Spoiler I knew I had a Shardblade… long before I’d bonded Pattern. She’d convinced herself that the weapon belonged to her father, and had been kept in his safe. She’d gone there before leaving home, and had drawn it out to dismiss it—ignoring that she’d instantly summoned it when reaching her hand in—pretending it was an ordinary Blade, pretending she needed ten heartbeats to summon it. However, a part of her had known even then that it was Testament, a friend to whom she’d done great harm. [tWoK 7] She admits she used a Shardblade, but pretends it was when her father died. Spoiler Change Jasnah's mind, prove herself. Considering it made her sick. She hated confrontation. During her youth, she’d felt like a piece of delicate crystalware, locked in a cabinet to be displayed but never touched. The only daughter, the last memory of Brightlord Davar’s beloved wife. It still felt odd to her that she been the one to take charge after … After the incident … After … Memories attacked her. Nan Balat bruised, his coat torn. A long, silvery sword in her hand, sharp enough to cut stones as if they were water. No, Shallan thought, her back to the stone wall, clutching her satchel. No. Don’t think of the past. [tWoK 45] She admits the Blade comes from something horrific she's done, but inferring from the other quotes she probably told herself that act was killing her father, and she's convinced herself she needs ten heartbeats. Spoiler She screamed then, jumping to her feet on her bed, dropping the pad, backing against the wall. Before she could consciously think of what she was doing, she was struggling with her sleeve, trying to get the Soulcaster out. It was the only thing she had resembling a weapon. No, that was stupid. She didn't know how to use it. She was helpless. Except … Storms! she thought, frantic. I can’t use that. I promised myself. She began the process anyway. Ten heartbeats, to bring forth the fruit of her sin, the proceeds of her most horrific act. She was interrupted midway through by a voice, uncanny yet distinct: [WoR 34] She admits that she doesn't need ten heartbeats after all, but backtracks immediately. Spoiler Ten heartbeats. But for her, it didn't have to be ten, did it? No. It must be. Time, I need time! [WoR 72] She admits her Blade has to do with her spren, but stops herself from finishing the thought. Spoiler Shallan dropped her paper—it bore a drawing of her and another of Kaladin—and scrambled across the rocks, dismissing the blackness around her. She'd needed to be close to the fighting for the illusions to work. Better if she’d been able to send them on Pattern, but that was problematic because— [WoR 74] She admits the method by which she killed her father, which if you think about it breaks the lie that this was when she summoned the Blade before, but of course she almost certainly doesn't think about it. Spoiler "I killed my father," Shallan whispered. Kaladin looked toward her. In a flash of light, he saw her eyes as she looked up from where her head had been resting against his chest, beads of water on her eyelashes. With his hands around her waist, hers around him, it was as close as he'd held a woman since Tarah. "My father was a violent, angry man," Shallan said. "A murderer. I loved him. And I strangled him as he lay on the floor, watching me, unable to move. I killed my own father . . ." [WoR 86] She admits fully that the Blade is Pattern, and even hints that she knows the difference between a living Blade and dead one, but doesn't think about why she knows this. Spoiler A deep truth. "There is something wrong with your Blade, and with all Blades." She hesitated for just a second. "All but mine. Pattern!" [WoR 88] She admits what happened with her mother, but ignores the previous tacit acknowledgement of knowledge about dead Blades and lies her chull off about Testament. Spoiler "This was you," she whispered. "Mmm . . . Yes." [...] And then a sword in Shallan’s hands. "He let everyone believe that he’d killed her," Shallan whispered. "That he’d murdered his wife and her lover in a rage, when I was the one who had actually killed them. He lied to protect me." [RoW 93] She admits what happened with Testament, but she's too focused on the "what" for it to take her all the way. However, it does get her close enough that nearby creationspren start reacting, the way nearby windspren react to Kaladin throughout Book Three. Spoiler Her spren. A spren who could talk. A spren she could confide in. A companion. And that companion had not been Pattern. It had been a different Cryptic. One who … One who … [...] She hadn't known what she was doing, not truly. But she had done it. "I killed her," Shallan whispered. "I killed my spren. My wonderful, beautiful, kindly spren. I broke my oaths, and I killed her." [W&T 9] She admits not just what happened but who she is because of it, finally crossing the threshold. Spoiler “I’m afraid,” Shallan said. The Heavenly One smiled, lit by a dark light from a gemstone hanging around his neck, and by the red of his eyes. “Afraid of everything,” she continued. “Terrified. Of the world. Of what might happen to my family. Most of all, of myself. I always have been.” Under this theory, the difference Brandon alludes to is that she made progress on her Fourth Ideal before she "swore" the Second and Third—because she has sworn them, in the first book she's really just repairing extant bridges instead of making new ones. 8 hours ago, alder24 said: Cosmere RPG spoilers: Reveal hidden contents I do agree, we should take all of that with a grain of salt. However I think that swearing Oaths for a second bond of the same type by reflecting on how you've changed since then fits very well to the theme of Knights Radiant. I think it's very likely this is close to the canon mechanism of double bonding. As for the WoB, I'm not sure how to interpret it. I think "I killed my spren" was a step necessary for Oath's reconstruction, but it wasn't a resworn Oath. Shallan could not have reconstructed her bond with Testament any further without finally admitting that she killed her. So it was a step towards reconstruction, but it wasn't Testament's Oath. But your interpretation is also a valid line of reasoning. However, I would not take this WoB too literally - it's vague and leaves a lot of room for speculation on purpose. [RPG mechanics] Spoiler I'll actually backpedal a little bit and say I think that makes perfect sense if you bond the second spren long after saying your first set of Ideals and need to catch up with yourself about how you've changed. However, because of the progression theory outlined above I don't believe this applies to Shallan, as I think she already had to do something similar when repairing the bond to Testament anyway, and then bonded Pattern right after. 2
Argent There is a person on the forums who noticed that Shallan has this awesome Memory thing going on, Jasnah seems to have a really powerful, kind of, geolocation thing going on, Kaladin is a really good fighter - are those just their traits, or is there something supernatural going on? Brandon Sanderson There is something supernatural going on. Each Order... Well, how about this. If you look at the scholar interpretations, there are some scholars who think that these things are not supernatural, in the past, and some who said they definitely are. But many, if you look, many Lightweavers had powerful mnemonic abilities. Argent So it's definitely tied to the Orders? Brandon Sanderson It's tied to the Orders. Now, I am not going to say that you've got them all 100% correct, but each Order, there are things that come with Order, things that do not add up from simple the "you get this power plus this power," there is something else going on. And I would say that for Windrunners, watch the number of squires and the power of the squires... is abnormal for the Windrunners. Argent And each Order's squires are somehow different from the other Orders'? Brandon Sanderson Yeeeaaaah... some Orders don't have them, [that] is the difference. Argent But some have more? Brandon Sanderson Yeah. Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014)
Dan Wells Sixth Epoch, Year 31, Shashaches 6.3.1. Bondsmiths Bondsmiths are, well... different. For starters, there are only three of them at a time, because there are only three spren that can grant Bondsmith powers. Seems kind of strange for a Radiant Order whose whole job is to bring people together, right? But, see, that's where the strangeness continues. Every Order takes squires; that's nothing new. But Bondsmiths sometimes have whole groups of servants who swear oaths but gain no powers at all. Can you imagine? I think there's something beautifully pure about that. They might be the only people in any Order who've ever taken the oaths for purely selfless reasons. They can't do any Surgebinding, they don't get spren, they just... take the oaths. Because oaths are important, and the values they swear to uphold are worth upholding. [...] #SayTheWords (Feb. 28, 2024)
Kythis Is there a specific number of the ideals that they have to do before they can get the Shardblade? Brandon Sanderson It depends on the Order. Words of Radiance Omaha signing (March 13, 2014)
alder24 Posted October 3, 2024 Posted October 3, 2024 7 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: If he was still in the Cognitive, would the bond have actually started yet? I believe yes. The way Cryptics bond is different from other spren. Cryptics accompany their fellow spren, observe a potential knight and help their comrade in their transition between Realms. Inkspren might do the same, because Ivory was also watching Jasnah from CR. And just like Syl said, they were already bonded even before they found each other. 7 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: The voice in that scene repeats the "what are you?" line from the voice she said "I'm terrified" to, and she doesn't comment on it sounding different or anything, so I'm inclined to think it's the same entity in both cases. The voice actually was different. WoR ch 6: Quote When I Soulcast for the first time, a voice demanded a truth from me. I still don’t know what that means, and Jasnah has not been forthcoming. She doesn’t seem to know what to make of my experience either. I do not think that voice belonged to Pattern, but I cannot say, as he seems to have forgotten much about himself. 7 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: Didn't she already take in that Light? It's not specified. In ch 8 she was using Lightweaving, but in ch 11 it was said she was nearly out of Stormlight. I think the simplest explanation is the best - he had light in gemstones, she inhaled some in ch 8, she inhaled even more when she did substantiation and almost ran out of Stormlight. Glowing eyes aren't enough to say she got a burst of power when breathing in light from her spheres is an option. 7 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: Lift can't use Stormlight in the first place, but she does get an effect she compares to a jolt of power during her conversation with Arclo as soon as she comes to the conclusion I believe to be her Third Ideal (which fits with her Cognitive focus) [ED 18]: Hide contents Lift hesitated, then patted him. She just … she just had to accept it, didn't she? In a moment, she felt relief akin to her terror. She was in darkness, but well, maybe she’d manage anyway. Lift stood up. "I left Azir because I was afraid. I came to Tashikk because that’s where my starvin’ feet took me. But tonight … tonight I decided to be here." "What is this nonsense?" Arclo asked. "How does it help my philosophy?" She cocked her head as a realization struck her, like a jolt of power. Huh. Fancy that, would you? "I … didn’t heal that boy," she whispered. That's not her 3rd Ideal, that's just a realization. She didn't get any power from it. She swore her ideal during the confrontation with Nale on the roof. there was no sudden burst of power. Edgedancer ch 19: Quote “I will listen,” Lift shouted, “to those who have been ignored!” “What?” Darkness demanded. “I heard what you said, Darkness! You were trying to prevent the Desolation. Look behind you! Deny what you’re seeing!” Lightning broke the air and howls rose in the city. Across the farmlands, the ruby glare revealed a huddled clump of people. A sorry, sad group. The poor parshmen who had been evicted. 7 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: (Something that has bugged me, actually—Kaladin doesn't get bursts of Stormlight from nowhere in tWoK/WoR, we always see him explicitly breathing it in from nearby gems whenever he swears an Ideal! But the later books act as if it's a thing, so I guess it is now even though that doesn't match what the earlier books portray...) I did notice that too, but on the other hand the text both times said he exploded with light. There might have been enough Stormlight in the palace hallway for him to explode, but in the small gems on beards and hair of Parshendi I'm not so sure. And Brandon did confirm that Windrunners explode with powers so we can assume he got more Stormlight when he swore his Oaths. 7 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: I think there's a miscommunication here. I don't think she's repeating them, I think her oaths are counting for both the way a squire's oaths also count for their spren bond when they graduate without needing any extra steps. I would say her Ideals are: But this doesn't really work for reconstruction of her broken bond. If her Truths were counting for both, even for Testament whom she didn't know existed before RoW because she repressed her existence, she said enough of Truths to be at 5th Ideal with both Pattern and Testament and Testament would have been revived. Explaining this by those steps forward and behind doesn't really work - if she were to go back on her Oath, she has to just swear the next one to restore her bond (like Kaladin did) and she did say enough of Truths already. How could she reconstruct her Oaths with Testament when she had no intent and no knowledge of her before RoW? That's why in my opinion she had to repeat "I'm terrified" in WaT, because the one said in WoK was just "partially" sworn as she lacked the full intent behind it. She can't just swear the Truth to Pattern and have it counted to Testament, she had to say it to Testament with the right intent. Now that she knows Testament is her spren, if she's on the "one track theory" she has to reswear her Oaths said to Pattern to Testament, she has to repair her broken Oaths. She doesn't just have a double bond, she has a broken double bond. This whole list of admissions aren't her Truths. Most of this is just her repressing her memories, not admitting and saying her Truths. There are even way more moments like this in the book. Repressions are not admissions. 7 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: [W&T 9] She admits not just what happened but who she is because of it, finally crossing the threshold. She's been always terrified, not since she killed her mother or Testament - always. She was terrified even before she killed her mother. That's why Testament came and bonded her, to help her fight against the darkness in their house. RoW ch 93: Quote The Cryptic encouraged her to become strong enough to help her family, to stand against the terrible darkness spreading through it. I think I'm even more confused than before. Shallan trying to repress her memories might be her stepping backwards from saying the next Truth or from the Truth she already said (the backtracking from WoB), but eventually she does swear the next Truth and this is the step forward. I believe in the WoB Brandon described it more figuratively than literally and trying to find all those steps backward and forward is pointless. It's not like she regressed in her bond even when in OB she tried her hardest to forget again she killed her mother - she said the Truth, it was out, she wasn't able to repress it anymore even when she tried to hide herself from it. Pattern was still her Shardblade, her bond wasn't broken - the Truth wasn't broken. Her backtracking never went "below" her current ideal. This theory isn't convincing to me, just confusing.
LewsTherinTelescope Posted October 3, 2024 Posted October 3, 2024 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Cryptics accompany their fellow spren, observe a potential knight and help their comrade in their transition between Realms. I don't think I understand why this would change it so the bond itself starts in the Cognitive, can you elaborate? 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Inkspren might do the same, because Ivory was also watching Jasnah from CR. Ivory was treated similarly to Syl by the other inkspren, they don't like it. Spoiler SomeAnonymous How was spren society impacted by Nale (legally) murdering wannabe proto-Radiants in the years before the Everstorm? Were they aware of what he was doing? Brandon Sanderson Yes, most spren thought that anyone who was trying to bond a human was--let's just say most of them responded as the other inkspren did to Ivory during his desires or Syl during her desires, and so if your foolish spren cousin goes to try to bond humans, they get what is coming to them is how most of them would probably regard it. It's not gonna be too bad for the spren, they're not going to be "killed" by what Nale was doing to the people. It's much worse for the people in that instance. But still, not a fun experience for a spren. YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021) I'm not sure if that was him in the prologue, it seems to try to kill her which matches with what Jasnah says the other inkspren wanted to do (OB 47). Spoiler Ivory was the only new-generation inkspren to form a Radiant bond. Some of his fellows would rather have killed Jasnah, instead of letting him risk what he had done. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: The voice actually was different. WoR ch 6: Quote When I Soulcast for the first time, a voice demanded a truth from me. I still don’t know what that means, and Jasnah has not been forthcoming. She doesn’t seem to know what to make of my experience either. I do not think that voice belonged to Pattern, but I cannot say, as he seems to have forgotten much about himself. That doesn't say they're different, does it? 2 hours ago, alder24 said: It's not specified. In ch 8 she was using Lightweaving, but in ch 11 it was said she was nearly out of Stormlight. She breathes her Light in in chapter 8. Spoiler Shallan breathed in Stormlight, frantic for a way to help, trying to devise a proper illusion. A second later, a thrown knife cut the Heavenly One across the face. Then a mace struck the creature square in the forehead. Shallan glanced at Adolin, who had opened one of his weapon boxes and was fishing out a short sword. He threw this next. Storms. He’d had a mace in there all along? 2 hours ago, alder24 said: She swore her ideal during the confrontation with Nale on the roof. She already said it before then, hence why she's able to summon Wyndle (ED 19). Spoiler "I don't know what to do," Lift said. "Say the Words," Wyndle said from beside her. "I’ve said them, in my heart." But what good would they do? Too few people listened to anything other than their own thoughts. But what good would listening do her here? All she could hear was the sound of the storm outside, lightning making the stones vibrate. Spoiler Lift screamed. She let go of Wyndle's vines and raised both hands above herself. Wyndle sighed a long, soft sigh, melting away, transforming into a silvery length of metal. She met Darkness’s descending Blade with her own weapon. Not a sword. Lift didn’t know crem about swords. Her weapon was just a silvery rod. It glowed in the darkness, and it blocked Darkness’s blow, though his attack left her arms quivering. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: if she were to go back on her Oath, she has to just swear the next one to restore her bond (like Kaladin did) Which she's not doing until now, because whenever she takes a step on one thing she lies her ass off about another. You can't bullcrem an Ideal. Spoiler Why won't you say the Words? the Stormfather asked. "I’ve forgotten them," Kaladin whispered. You have not. "Will they mean anything if I don’t feel them, Stormfather? Can I lie to swear an Ideal?" Silence. Pure, incriminating silence. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Explaining this by those steps forward and behind doesn't really work Brandon explicitly says that's what's happening, though. Spoiler enceladus_47 Does Shallan's "I killed my spren" count as a truth? Brandon Sanderson I'm gonna leave up to theorizing, figuring out the timeline that's going on with Shallan. What we can say is that Shallan is reconstructing, in many cases, oaths she has said before. And it is working slightly differently than someone who is saying new oaths. And indeed, saying she killed her spren is one of those steps. I'll leave it to you to try and parse through that. It's actually pretty complicated. We have a nice big page explaining all of this stuff internally, to make sure that we're keeping it all straight. Because she has violated oaths and reconstructed them, is basically what's happening. And she is regressing, and she's doing a... 1.1 steps forward, 1 step back, sort of thing, kind of frequently. YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020) 3 hours ago, alder24 said: How could she reconstruct her Oaths with Testament when she had no intent and no knowledge of her before RoW? How could she swear an oath with Pattern when she had no intent and no knowledge of him before WoR? 3 hours ago, alder24 said: This whole list of admissions aren't her Truths. They aren't, they're steps. Hence why I listed them underneath one entry and described them as "baby steps". 3 hours ago, alder24 said: She's been always terrified, not since she killed her mother or Testament - always. She was terrified even before she killed her mother. That's why Testament came and bonded her, to help her fight against the darkness in their house. Sure she's always been scared, but I somehow doubt she was as afraid of herself before she killed her mother and murdered her innocent friend. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Shallan trying to repress her memories might be her stepping backwards from saying the next Truth or from the Truth she already said (the backtracking from WoB), but eventually she does swear the next Truth and this is the step forward. He says she's doing it "kind of frequently" and "it's actually pretty complicated", that sounds like it's about more than just the few times she says full Ideals. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: I believe in the WoB Brandon described it more figuratively than literally and trying to find all those steps backward and forward is pointless. He said they have a whole wiki page about it, that sounds pretty literal to me. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Pattern was still her Shardblade, her bond wasn't broken - the Truth wasn't broken. Her backtracking never went "below" her current ideal. I didn't say it did? What I listed were steps toward and away from her Fourth, her Second and Third are unaffected. 2
SomeAnonymous How was spren society impacted by Nale (legally) murdering wannabe proto-Radiants in the years before the Everstorm? Were they aware of what he was doing? Brandon Sanderson Yes, most spren thought that anyone who was trying to bond a human was--let's just say most of them responded as the other inkspren did to Ivory during his desires or Syl during her desires, and so if your foolish spren cousin goes to try to bond humans, they get what is coming to them is how most of them would probably regard it. It's not gonna be too bad for the spren, they're not going to be "killed" by what Nale was doing to the people. It's much worse for the people in that instance. But still, not a fun experience for a spren. YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)
enceladus_47 Does Shallan's "I killed my spren" count as a truth? Brandon Sanderson I'm gonna leave up to theorizing, figuring out the timeline that's going on with Shallan. What we can say is that Shallan is reconstructing, in many cases, oaths she has said before. And it is working slightly differently than someone who is saying new oaths. And indeed, saying she killed her spren is one of those steps. I'll leave it to you to try and parse through that. It's actually pretty complicated. We have a nice big page explaining all of this stuff internally, to make sure that we're keeping it all straight. Because she has violated oaths and reconstructed them, is basically what's happening. And she is regressing, and she's doing a... 1.1 steps forward, 1 step back, sort of thing, kind of frequently. YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)
alder24 Posted October 3, 2024 Posted October 3, 2024 2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: I don't think I understand why this would change it so the bond itself starts in the Cognitive, can you elaborate? The bond already existed in the Spiritual Realm. Other Cryptics are there to provide an anchor to the bonding spren. I don't see why it can't start forming while the spren is still in the Cognitive Realm. It's not a full bond yet, but there is enough for Shallan and Jasnah to have some powers manifested - and to speak the 2nd Ideal. 2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: Ivory was treated similarly to Syl by the other inkspren, they don't like it. I'm not sure if that was him in the prologue, it seems to try to kill her which matches with what Jasnah says the other inkspren wanted to do (OB 47). Yes, I know Ivory is alone, yet due to how Inkspren interacted with Jasnah in the prologue, it looks like Inkspren behave in the same way as Cryptics - they are judging from CR. For me this was more like Ivory (assuming it was him, which I think it was) was testing Jasnah rather than seriously trying to kill her. 2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: That doesn't say they're different, does it? It says Shallan didn't recognize Pattern as the voice she heard when she Soulcasted, Pattern doesn't remember it so it most likely wasn't Pattern. Add to this the WoB saying that if Shallan didn't try to summon her Shardblade, she wouldn't have been able to Soulcast. 2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: She breathes her Light in in chapter 8 This whole part got out of hand. I was simply proposing a simple explanation for why Shallan's eyes started to glow. Yes, she inhaled Stormlight in ch 8, I said she was Lightweaving, but it didn't say she inhaled all of her light. 2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: She already said it before then, hence why she's able to summon Wyndle (ED 19) Missed that, yes she said it in her mind a moment before. Would that count? Maybe - for Eshonai it counted but that's because she couldn't say them out loud. Or maybe she could summon Wyndle for the same reason Teft could summon some form of his Shardblade in RoW - he was at the point he could almost say the 4th Ideal. It doesn't matter - my point was that Lift didn't get any influx of power when swearing an Oath. 2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: How could she swear an oath with Pattern when she had no intent and no knowledge of him before WoR? She did, she spoke directly to voices. She knew they were the reasons she saw Shadesmar and she had enough of the intent and knowledge to say the Truth. 2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: Sure she's always been scared, but I somehow doubt she was as afraid of herself before she killed her mother and murdered her innocent friend. Innocent friend? You mean a lover, a person Shallan knew destroyed her family, who tried to kill her father? Very innocent indeed. Why wouldn't she be afraid if she needed reassurance to face the darkness spreading in her family? You didn't address my problems with this. How does this one track theory explain Testament's Oaths reconstruction? How does it works Do you think Shallan is at 4th Ideal with both Testament and Pattern right now? That means she reconstructed her Ideals with Testament up to the 4th Ideal, right? How did she this while constantly repressing the knowledge of Testament? This doesn't work for me. If she's at 4th Ideal with both spren, where is her second Shardplate, or at least why her one plate isn't made out of spren belonging to both Pattern and Testament, like Nomad's was? I do believe as a child she reached the 4th Ideal, thus she should have platespren that created a plate before, yet all current spren did it for the first time. Why did you count "I'm terrified" as two separate Truths, when Shallan said "she said it before?" And what if "I killed my mother/spren" counts as a Truth, why isn't she at 5th Ideal with a fully restored Testament? There were enough big moments that she should be at 5th Ideal by now (that's why I said explaining specifically this doesn't work with steps, not as the whole). Shallan even said in OB "I killed my mother" was a Truth, it's out and she can't hide it anymore - yet she tries the hardest not to think about it. She said that Truth, she revealed it, but can't deal with it, can't accept it. The truth was the step forward (and times when she doesn't try to repress it), her trying to hide from it were steps backwards. So then she's at 5th Ideal - we're back to my previous point. She said the same about "I killed my father" - she counts is as a Truth, but she doesn't count "I'm terrified as a Truth. OB ch 8: Quote It meant she had to summon her Blade each time. The Blade she’d used to kill her mother. A truth she’d spoken as an Ideal of her order of Radiants. A truth that she could no longer, therefore, stuff into the back of her mind and forget. Just draw OB ch 13: Quote Well, except for that whole part about having to admit to herself that she’d killed her mother. As soon as she thought of it, she instinctively tried to shove the memory away, but it wouldn’t budge. She’d spoken it to Pattern as a truth —which were the odd Ideals of the Lightweavers. It was stuck in her mind, and every time she thought about it, the gaping wound flared up with pain again. Shallan had killed her mother. Her father had covered it up, pretended he’d murdered his wife, and the event had destroyed his life—driving him to anger and destruction. Until eventually Shallan had killed him too. OB ch 25: Quote Too many memories of her father, and of her mother, who had loved telling her stories. She tried to banish those memories, but they wouldn’t go. 1
Confused Posted October 3, 2024 Posted October 3, 2024 Change of subject... Rayse became ROd. Taravangian became TOd. I think Gavinor should assume the Odium Shard and became GOd. 4
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