Who’s talking to Kaladin? / Who is the Wind discussion

[Etedbert he/him]

The similarities to other Bondsmith stuff has me thinking it could possibly be the Nightwatcher, and we could see Kaladin as the third bondsmith by the end of book 5. I know Syl dying is a popular theory, and I could see it as happening around the end of Part 2, leaving part 3 for Kaladin to swear his first/second oaths to bond the Nightwatcher. *

Plus, tying closer to Cultivation makes a lot of sense for where Kaladin is as a character, along giving him a leadership role as a bondsmith without him having to fight on the front lines.
 

 

* If a KR spren dies, does the radiant previously bonded to them have to say the first oaths again? Or could they start a bond with a new spren, and theoretically jump to the second oaths?

eg. if a 3rd oath Skybreaker’s highspren dies, and the radiant becomes disillusioned with the rigidity of the skybreakers, and they start bonding a windspren, do they have to say the immortal words again?

[LewsTherinTelescope]

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

Unless the winds on Roshar became sentient after Honor's death and they are separate from the Stormfather!

Maybe not even after Honor's death...

Spoiler

Our pity destroyed us. For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind.

 

29 minutes ago, Etedbert said:

* If a KR spren dies, does the radiant previously bonded to them have to say the first oaths again? Or could they start a bond with a new spren, and theoretically jump to the second oaths?

eg. if a 3rd oath Skybreaker’s highspren dies, and the radiant becomes disillusioned with the rigidity of the skybreakers, and they start bonding a windspren, do they have to say the immortal words again?

Shallan doesn't seem to have to say the First Ideal over again.

Edited August 6, 2024 by LewsTherinTelescope
formatting

[Ashbringer he/him]

I like Jezrien as a possibility. That would explain in part why the Wind started speaking now, right after both Ishar temporarily regained some clarity and Kaladin swore the 4th Ideal. We really only have Kalak’s theory that he faded to the Beyond. And “the Bondsmith” could be either Dalinar or Ishar.

BAM or Tanavast are probably the more likely options, though. Or Roshar’s Wind as a whole. Especially if we’re taking the in-world KoWaT to be by Kaladin (and thus this Wind has likely been around for longer than he realizes). BAM I feel would reach out to Shallan and not Kal, though.

There’s also Dai-Gonarthis as an Unmade option. We’ve got no idea what that one’s up to.

[+Child of Hodor]

I suspect it is Tanavast maybe we'll be getting more about the "Child of Tanavast" thing the Stormfather said to Kaladin in WoK in the chapter of the same name. Stormfather has talked to Kaladin multiple times so Kaladin should recognize that voice. This must be a different one. 

This reminds me of the end of OB when Dalinar hears "unite them" in his head and goes "what did you say?" to Stormfather who says he didn't say anything. 

Quote

Unite them.

"Stormfather, is that you? Why do you keep saying this to me?"

I said nothing

OB Ch. 111

Could be the same voice that is now speaking to Kaladin. 

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Maybe not even after Honor's death...

  Reveal hidden contents

Our pity destroyed us. For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind.

 

That, is something I think links some very strange concepts together.

We know that there are very few, if any, Spren in Shinovar. We know that Szeth learned about the return of the Voidbringers from a 'voice' that he calls similar to Nightblood's. Now Kaladin is hearing a warning from the 'Wind' that may be calling him to Shinovar, since we know that is where Kaladin is going.

We also know that the Dawnsingers could use Cohesion in some fashion by talking to the stone or something (It's been a while since I read ROW so I don't quite remember the details).

There is something very strange about the Stone and Winds that we currently do not understand, something that we are definitely going to learn about in this book.

[alder24]

15 hours ago, Diomedes said:

There is an really old theory that there is something up with Rosharan afterlive. Theory: Roshar's Afterlife and the Tranquiline Halls 

As this book will feature a trip to the spiritual realm, it would be fitting for someone dead to talk to Kaladin. 

We already saw Evi forgiving Dalinar at the end of OB. And it was probably Tien himself who was present in Kaladin`s vision at the end of RoW.

15 hours ago, Lord Spirit said:

So this theory is saying that instead of going to the beyond, rosharians are sent to the spiritual realm?

That is actually really interesting. You also get another deceased voice with Teft in this chapter. Szeth is also haunted by “the voices” of people he’s killed. So maybe broken people can connect to all of these people in the spiritual realm. 

The only issue I have with theory is that there have been millions of people on Roshar since the tranquiline halls were taken. That’s a lot of souls to just be sitting around for thousands of years. 

I haven't read that theory yet, but nobody has to be sent into the SR - after a person dies it leaves behind the corpse of his spirit web in the Spiritual Realm. So yes, those spirit webs of Tien or Evi are still in the Spiritual Realm. But this is separate from the afterlife - the Beyond. We won't even know if the Beyond exists in Cosmere.

Spoiler

Argent

Is death in the Cosmere a two-stage process? It seems to me like (under normal circumstances) the body dies first, sending the mind fully in the Cognitive Realm; the soul, presumably, remains in the Spiritual for the entire process. I am a little unclear on what happens after that though - what is it that passes into the Beyond, just the mind? Does the soul / spiritual aspect / Spiritweb just kind of... break down in the Spiritual Realm, turn into free iInvestiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. It's a two stage process, and most of what you said is correct. The odd thing is, though, that the Spiritweb doesn't completely break down (just like your body doesn't immediately break down.) Even after a long time, there's a record of that Spiritweb in the Spiritual Realm.

Oversleep

Wait wait wait. If there is a "corpse" of Spiritweb (so to speak) and actual, physical corpse is also there... Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy? Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy if you really know what you're doing and have some useful powers (manipulating Connection comes to mind)?

Could you patch the remnants of the Spiritweb and staple it to the body and end up with some zombie-zombie Lifeless? You'd still need to give it a mind but I figure Awakening is just doing that?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Stormlight Three Update #6 (Feb. 5, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Close to the end of Rhythm of War, Dalinar Connects Kaladin to something, which gives him the vision of Tien. Did he Connect him to Tien's dead soul, and if so, does Dalinar know what he did?

Brandon Sanderson

There are two prevailing theories on what happened here among cosmerenauts, in-world Arcanists. You would get two different answers. The most common answer is, Dalinar attached himself to the Spiritual Realm, pulled out possibilities, and showed one of those to Kaladin.

Questioner

If so, where did the horse come from?

Brandon Sanderson

Either pure coincidence, or some sort of matching of Fortune to the moment, that ended up leading Kaladin to the place he needed to be, which is the way a lot of Fortune works. Fortune would be like, "You should go here," and you don't even know why. That's what the Arcanist answer would be, it would be the most common answer. Some people would say he reached into the Beyond and connected Tien to Kaladin via Tien's actual soul. I will leave these both as equally valid theories. As I've said many times, I'm not gonna say whether there is an actual afterlife in the cosmere because it is too foundational to too many characters' beliefs, or lack of beliefs, or worldview in-world to have the author contradict them either way.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

12 hours ago, Geneio said:

What if instead of the voice being Tanavast or even being any creature we know, it's the voice of the Splintered Shard of Honor?

Since Honor was Splintered about 2000 years ago, might that not be enough time for that Investiture to become partially self aware?

Possible.However, it can't be the whole Honor, Honor is Splintered into pieces, each piece is separate and the Stormfather is Connected to some of those pieces. It can be only one of those pieces. Still, it's possible. 

Spoiler

Argent

You've said that Investiture tends to develop sapience on its own. Is this a function of the amount of Investiture alone (i.e. any pile of Investiture large enough will develop sapience eventually), or does the process require extra effort (e.g. a Command from an Awakener, an action by a Shard, etc.)?

Brandon Sanderson

Under the right circumstances, a pile of investiture will eventually become self-aware. But there is no specific timing. The more investiture clumped together, the more likely--and the closer to human-level intelligence it is likely to obtain.

Of course, if you leave matter alone long enough (on a galactic scale) it will eventually end up becoming sapient too. So this isn't that different. (Well, okay, it is.)

Boogalyhu34

Are humans already sapient and intelligent because their Spiritual DNA tell their innate investiture what connections to make or what weird soul pattern to go into.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's RAFO that for now.

Stormlight Three Update #4 (Oct. 4, 2016)

 

7 hours ago, Etedbert said:

* If a KR spren dies, does the radiant previously bonded to them have to say the first oaths again? Or could they start a bond with a new spren, and theoretically jump to the second oaths?

eg. if a 3rd oath Skybreaker’s highspren dies, and the radiant becomes disillusioned with the rigidity of the skybreakers, and they start bonding a windspren, do they have to say the immortal words again?

Yes to both. They are forming a new bond, new Ideals have to be spoken, lived by and accepted. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

How about a Dawnshard speaking to him? Or for that matter, how about Cucicesh? This is most likely the entity that sort of bonded a little with him to give him that burst of power in RoW.

[The Stick]

I would like to posit that Sigzil could potentially be the KoWaT. I think that this is kind of unlikely, with us already having Sunlit Man as the Sigzil book, but I think that it is certainly possible, assuming that Sigzil swears to Aux at some point. This may even tie into the Sunlit Man scene when Sigzil thinks that Hoid is Kaladin for a second.

[Isilel]

6 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

This reminds me of the end of OB when Dalinar hears "unite them" in his head and goes "what did you say?" to Stormfather who says he didn't say anything. 

Could be the same voice that is now speaking to Kaladin. 

 

IMHO, it is absolutely the same voice and the same entity that was also behind a couple of Dalinar's dreams/visions that the Stormfather denies responsibility for, was masquerading as Nohadon in the changed vision and had also been the Stormfaker in Gavilar's prologue. I.e.: 

"You are not the one I need" in the end with Gavilar to "You are what I need" now with Kaladin. This is a clear connection.

And IMHO it is Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow. I have been saying for a long time that some pre-recorded messages do not a CS make and that  the Stormfather's core personality is clearly very much his own and that of a spren that has never been human. It would make sense that Tanavast chose not to go the Fused way and replace the SF's mind with his CS, but to have it exist independently within the Stormfather, hidden from Odium.

I also think that Kaladin will either Ascend to Honor or follow Dalinar as  SF's Bondsmith. There is already a pretty strong Connection between them and Kaladin's retreat from the battlefield mirrors Dalinar's before him.

[Zea mays]

“I need your help, I’m so sorry… to ask more of you…”

The word more here bugs me. It implies that “The Wind” or whoever’s talking has asked something of Kaladin before.  

[The Stick]

Now, I see everyone here is thinking that it is a real voice. I do think that it probably is. However, I would like posit the possibility that it could just be a hallucination by Kaladin's part, considering we know he is not exactly ever fully stable. I think that this is a long shot, but a possibility nonetheless. 

 

Edited August 7, 2024 by The Stick

[Ashbringer he/him]

4 hours ago, Zea mays said:

“I need your help, I’m so sorry… to ask more of you…”

The word more here bugs me. It implies that “The Wind” or whoever’s talking has asked something of Kaladin before.  

It could be this, but it could also be that Wind is aware that Kaladin's been through a lot / been asked by many to do a lot, especially right after RoW.

But that still raises the question of how the Wind is aware of that (and potentially why it cares about that, if BAM is one of the options).

[+Kelkamer]

I'm not sure what, but something about it and the reference to "the bondsmith" made me think it was Ishar somehow connecting through his bouts of madness.

Either way, I think the "Bondsmith" referenced was Ishar

[Subvisual Haze]

I thought it was interesting how often the wind-voice says it is sorry.  This subtly implies to me that it's the shadow of honor/tanavast.  If you accept the theory that there are 2 independent minds inside the Stormfather (shadow of honor vs. spren of highstorms) the interaction of Dalinar with Stormfather during the big battle in WoR becomes more clear.  Dalinar starts out the interaction speaking with the shadow of honor (apologetic that he can't help, speaks in normal text here, describes himself as the remnant of God), then in the middle of the conversation Stormfather the spren takes over (large caps, confrontational, claims he is humanity's God, unhelpfully sends a storm, rushes off to try to prevent Syl from re-bonding Kaladin).

Quote

“I am sorry that you have to die this way.”

WoR Ch 81

Quote

“I am not the Almighty,” the voice said.

...

“I am sorry,” the voice repeated. Unlike in the visions, Dalinar could find no avatar speaking the words. They came out of nowhere. “You have striven hard. But I can do nothing for you.”

“Who are you?” Dalinar hissed.

“I am the one left behind,” the voice said. It wasn’t exactly as he’d heard it in the visions; this voice had a depth to it. A density. “I am the sliver of Him that remains. I saw His corpse, saw Him die when Odium murdered Him. And I . . . I fled. To continue as I always have. The piece of God left in this world, the winds that men must feel.”

WoR Ch 82

and finally the switch between "Stormfathers" conveniently noted in change in caps.

Quote

Storm it! Dalinar shoved Roion away and strode out into the center of the plateau, looking up toward the sky. “Answer me! Let me know if you can hear me!”

“I can.”

Finally. Some progress. “Are you the Almighty?”

“I said I am not, child of Honor.”

“Then what are you?”

I AM THAT WHICH BRINGS LIGHT AND DARKNESS. The voice took on more of a rumbling, distant quality.

“The Stormfather,” Dalinar said. “Are you a Herald?”

NO. “Then are you a spren or a god?”

BOTH.

“What is the point of talking to me?” Dalinar shouted at the sky. “What is happening?”

THEY CALL FOR A STORM. MY OPPOSITE. DEADLY.

“How do we stop it?”

YOU DON’T.

“There has to be a way!”

I BRING YOU A STORM OF CLEANSING. IT WILL CARRY AWAY YOUR CORPSES. THIS IS ALL I CAN DO.

“No! Don’t you dare abandon us!”

YOU MAKE DEMANDS OF ME, YOUR GOD?

“You aren’t my god. You were never my god! You are a shadow, a lie!”

Distant thunder rumbled ominously. The rain beat harder against Dalinar’s face.

I AM CALLED. I MUST GO. A DAUGHTER DISOBEYS. YOU WILL SEE NO FURTHER VISIONS, CHILD OF HONOR. THIS IS THE END. FAREWELL.

Honor's shadow is regretful that he can't do more to help, Stormfather the spren doesn't care about humanity at this point. Clear differences in tone.  Stormfather seems to see Honor's Shadow as part of himself, but Honor's shadow seems to act independently though from time to time.  Also Tanavast himself in his final vision to Dalinar has a similar apologetic tone that he can't do more to help humanity.

So our wind-voice seems to be the shadow of honor.  What's more I think it has actually interacted with Kaladin before.  Just like Kaladin isn't certain in the new chapter if the voice in his head's is Syl's, there's also intentional ambiguity way back in tWoK before Kal says his 2nd oath.

Quote

THE WORDS, a voice said, urgent, as if directly into his mind.

I think this was Honor's Shadow encouraging Kaladin along.  This was also notably after Kaladin had his first flashback to Tien's death which was described as having a time dilation effect (very little time passed in the outside world while he was having the flashback), which could be a similar thing as he had in RoW's updated Tien vision.

[Zea mays]

Snap. I remembered. The beginning of Oathbringer, when Kaladin arrives at Hearthstone, 

Quote

 Syl walked up to him in the air. “They’re like I remember them.” “Remember them?” Kaladin whispered. “Syl, you never knew me when I lived here.” “That’s true,” she said. “So how can you remember them?” Kaladin said, frowning. “Because I do,” Syl said, flitting around him. “Everyone is connected, Kaladin. Everything is connected. I didn’t know you then, but the winds did, and I am of the winds.” “You’re honorspren.”

…

“Besides, there was … another voice. Pure, with a song like tapped crystal, distant yet demanding…”

‘The Wind’ has always been there.

Now I think ‘The Wind’ is somehow speaking to Kaladin through Syl (she never confirms she actually hears the voice).

[BinarySecond]

Any chance Syl is something beyond a regular Honour Spren? She is the last created by Tanavast that is still "alive"

 

A contingency?

Spoiler

Leras was able to do it.

Any reason Tanavast couldn't do it as well?

[RefusesToElaborate]

On 8/6/2024 at 2:08 AM, Lord Spirit said:

Kaladin reconizes the voice as the wind. Maybe Tanavast uses the wind the same way preservation uses the mists. 
 

Also for evidence that Tanavast is alive, it’s been said several times that “Honor is not dead so long as he lives in the hearts of men”. So nobody is holding the shard, but maybe Tanavast got split between The Stormfather and humans when Honor was shattered

It's not necessarily a bad idea that the wind would be tied to Tanavast. In fact, you could be on to something.

Stormlight is inhaled, it's not that hard to make the leap between wind and inhalation. Tanavast is mostly tied to the Stormfather, a storm is just spicy wind. Honourspren seem to like the wind, windspren make up the armour of a radiant bound to Honourspren. don't know if I want to support your idea but it's a logical conclusion to draw. 

However I don't believe Shards can "just" talk to people. Ruin required a spike, for instance and so does Harmony. If a Shard could just talk to Radiants of the 4th ideal, surely someone would have written it down? Might have to scan the WoR epigraphs or others. Shalash, Nale or Kelek would have mentioned it, no?

[BinarySecond]

I've always wondered if the human heartbeat matches up with Honors Pure Tone

"vibrant beat, stately and controlled"

This is the description from the Coppermind but I've always wondered if there was something more literal to the phrase "Honor is not dead so long as he lives in the hearts of men".

That it isn't just a nice thing they like to say but instead it's literal.

[RefusesToElaborate]

13 hours ago, The Stick said:

Now, I see everyone here is thinking that it is a real voice. I do think that it probably is. However, I would like posit the possibility that it could just be a hallucination by Kaladin's part, considering we know he is not exactly ever fully stable. I think that this is a long shot, but a possibility nonetheless. 

 

Not a fan of this idea.

Kaladin is showing some PTSD symptoms here, an auditory hallucination is a rare symptom of PTSD. However I do recall being told at one point (I don't have a source, it was revealed to me in a vision from the Almighty) that PTSD sufferers are more likely to experience auditory hallucinations of *what* traumatised them. If it were the voice of Amaram or Moash or The Defeated One, maybe.

More than that, plenty SLA characters are experiencing auditory hallucination already. Szeth hears the screams, Dalinar did too, Shallan has conversations with her auditory hallucinations. Repeating this idea on another character might be... not great.

[Lord Spirit he/him]

11 minutes ago, RefusesToElaborate said:

It's not necessarily a bad idea that the wind would be tied to Tanavast. In fact, you could be on to something.

Stormlight is inhaled, it's not that hard to make the leap between wind and inhalation. Tanavast is mostly tied to the Stormfather, a storm is just spicy wind. Honourspren seem to like the wind, windspren make up the armour of a radiant bound to Honourspren. don't know if I want to support your idea but it's a logical conclusion to draw. 

However I don't believe Shards can "just" talk to people. Ruin required a spike, for instance and so does Harmony. If a Shard could just talk to Radiants of the 4th ideal, surely someone would have written it down? Might have to scan the WoR epigraphs or others. Shalash, Nale or Kelek would have mentioned it, no?

Shard (and others) can talk to people, provided they have enough cracks in their soul to let the shard in. We see Kelsier talk to Vin and others a few times without them being spiked. The spikes just make it easy by connecting them to ruin. 
Honor was alive for most of the early radiants, so nobody would have thought it weird. After he died, the radiants ended pretty quick. The heralds are a bit insane and unreliable. There are a few other times that other characters have heard an unexplained voice. Plus, people might not have written it down because they don’t want to sound crazy. 

To expand based on what others have said, Tanavasts cognitive shadow merged with the stormfather, but it seems like they are somewhat separate and speak differently. One in Italics and one in UPPER CASE.

[Isilel]

6 hours ago, RefusesToElaborate said:

If a Shard could just talk to Radiants of the 4th ideal, surely someone would have written it down?

 

It has been explicitly mentioned in OB that Honor had talked to the Radiants in the past. In particular, he  helped them reconcile with the truth of their ancestors actions, when it got re-discovered. But immediately prior to the Recreance he was crazy and raving and told them that they'd destroy Roshar, etc. 

We also saw Odium talk to people who were strongly enough Connected to him.

I do think that Honor may have been among the Shards who can talk better than hear, which is how the custom of burning glyphs to him as prayers or messages may have originated.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

21 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

If you accept the theory that there are 2 independent minds inside the Stormfather (shadow of honor vs. spren of highstorms) the interaction of Dalinar with Stormfather during the big battle in WoR becomes more clear.  Dalinar starts out the interaction speaking with the shadow of honor (apologetic that he can't help, speaks in normal text here, describes himself as the remnant of God), then in the middle of the conversation Stormfather the spren takes over (large caps, confrontational, claims he is humanity's God, unhelpfully sends a storm, rushes off to try to prevent Syl from re-bonding Kaladin).

I don't think that's separate minds, the conversation continues without a break. If you look at how he speaks to Eshonai, Syl, and even Kaladin (outside the time he was killing his daughter) he's also much more apologetic and encouraging, honestly it seems like he just is really peeved by Dalinar in particular. The connection in tone to the voice Kaladin is hearing is pretty interesting though

13 hours ago, BinarySecond said:

Any chance Syl is something beyond a regular Honour Spren? She is the last created by Tanavast that is still "alive"

Syl was created by the Stormfather, he took over that duty before Tanavast fully died.

[Ashbringer he/him]

I think the main question for if the voice is Tanavast is, why now? 

Previously we didn't have more than a hint that Tanavast could still be around. With him being one of the premiere Storm-faker candidates, that's changed a bit. But then why did the Tanavast give Gavilar the full intercommunication, then give Dalinar the "prerecorded messages"? Especially if Tanavast was then also talking to Dalinar specifically, if only for a time.

I mean, there's the simple explanation that Tanavast was just being petty with Dalinar after he'd been pseudo-betrayed by Gavilar. The prologue seems to imply that. But if all the evidence that's been seen before with Dalinar is evidence for Tanavast, then Tanavast broke that promise.

Did something big change at the end of RoW that would change this? Kaladin swearing the 4th Oath could maybe be a trigger, but Jasnah (and Nale, and maybe Szeth depending on how that counts) has already done that. Jezrien's death was a year earlier. Ishar gained a bit of sentience, but that was temporary and also probably should have happened in WoR/OB when Dalinar swore oaths.

Odium's agreement with Dalinar, Rayse's death, the Tower's reawakening, or even Phendora's anti-Investiture death all could be it. Sort of depends what Tanavast is looking for.

 

If I had to go for an "I'd like to solve the puzzle"(or more accurately, I had to agree with other people who try solving puzzle), it's that Tanavast needs Kaladin (since Dalinar is out) to take up really-actually-dead Jezrien's place as a Herald to reforge the Oathpact, because a pact of Honor wouldn't work with(out) 10 people. I think that would make the most sense, and somewhat makes sense on the timing (Ishar's realization + Jezrien's death), but doesn't really explain why Tanavast seemed to consider Gavilar.

Edited August 8, 2024 by Ashbringer
Without

[Subvisual Haze]

My guess would be that Stormfather the spren is the one who chooses who gets the visions.  And for his own reasons chose Gavilar and then Dalinar.  The shadow of honor/Tanavast is pretty limited in its ability to directly impact the greater world (kind of like Kelsier in Secret History), but has more influence over those who get visions just because of connection to the power.  With Gavilar the shadow took a very active role (to groom him to be a herald/champion/whatever), but then realized it was a mistake.  Kaladin seems to be the new person the shadow has its eyes on for that special role, but it also isn't completely adverse to giving subtle hints to nudge Dalinar along on the Bondsmith path.

[BinarySecond]

9 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Syl was created by the Stormfather, he took over that duty before Tanavast fully died.

Fair enough - Honor was still around at least; not completely outlandish but perhaps not likely in the end.