QF 72: The Rebellion - Now or Never

[Coffeecat she/her]

2 minutes ago, Aeternum said:

I don't know I'm evil, and I don't know who my faction members are. So you've got something wrong there.

That is exactly the point, you don't know your team members, so you aren't sure whether you want TUO dead or not, in case he ends up being evil like you.

Also if you really are the original jester, and swapped with Stick, then you are definitely some shade of evil or neutral

[Aeternum]

17 minutes ago, Coffeecat said:

That is exactly the point, you don't know your team members, so you aren't sure whether you want TUO dead or not, in case he ends up being evil like you.

Also if you really are the original jester, and swapped with Stick, then you are definitely some shade of evil or neutral

Hm I was not aware that I may or may not want TUO dead, I think you're overanalyzing me. If it's not slightly obvious by me self voting, I'm not terribly inclined to elim side, and I clearly don't care about which wincon I have anymore. I'm a professional loser. I have been saying it's likely I'm evil, I think Stick must've actually randed an evil role, but she declines to actually tell me. And no one has said "hey Aet you're lost!", so I'm just chilling.

Let's pretend I actually do care enough to not spin in circles and try to find my teammates. In what assumedly e!me world am I going to tell you all of my theories and very obviously townside? I'd just keep quiet. You may now bring out the tinfoil.

I would appreciate knowing my wincon, but since I don't, I'm just gonna throw my pizza party in peace!

Fwiw, since you know whether or not the swap is true, (and assuming it is) it is actually a safe bet to vote me, from my point of view, since I actually know what I randed and know I'm not Kelsier now. Part of why I think Stick randed elim is because Stick didn't retract the Kelsier rand claim, as it would protect me, the now elim. Now obviously no one's going to vote me because no one except Stick and I know who's telling the truth about randing Kelsier.

If you were to fully trust me, it's possible that voting me would give you a town win. But I doubt anyone's interested in finding out, so back to the pizza party I go.

I am curious, what does everyone think the assumedly two elims roles in play are?

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

1 hour ago, Aeternum said:

I am curious, what does everyone think the assumedly two elims roles in play are?

It's the Ministry Leader and Ministry Seeker, assuming we're talking about non-jester roles.

On 7/3/2024 at 5:50 AM, CadCom said:

Roles in Play (In action Order)

  Hide contents

Lerasium Spiked

Matchmaker

Leader of the Ministry

Ministry Seeker

Seeker

Spiked

Hemalurgic troublemaker

Drunk

Oracle

Kandra spy

Hazekiller

Kelsier

 

 

Enjoy your pizza!

(edit: is it just me or do spoilers inside of quotes render kinda weirdly)

Edited July 7, 2024 by DrakeMarshall

[RoyalBeeMage he/him]

11 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

It's the Ministry Leader and Ministry Seeker, assuming we're talking about non-jester roles.

Enjoy your pizza!

(edit: is it just me or do spoilers inside of quotes render kinda weirdly)

THEY RENDER WEIRD FOR ME AS WELL

edit:oops had caps lock on

Edited July 7, 2024 by RoyalBeeMage

[Aeternum]

11 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

It's the Ministry Leader and Ministry Seeker, assuming we're talking about non-jester roles.

Ah, for some reason I assumed there was like four different possible elim roles from the way people were talking. Since there's that conversion thing, does that mean there's possibly another elim? (can you tell I barely skimmed the rules)

11 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

Enjoy your pizza!

I will you should come join, the only rule is no spiking the pizza!

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

18 minutes ago, RoyalBeeMage said:

THEY RENDER WEIRD FOR ME AS WELL

edit:oops had caps lock on

when I'm using copperplate it's all caps even when it isn't

17 minutes ago, Aeternum said:

Ah, for some reason I assumed there was like four different possible elim roles from the way people were talking. Since there's that conversion thing, does that mean there's possibly another elim? (can you tell I barely skimmed the rules)

it's entirely possible that there's a convert, but afaik they wouldn't *know* they're a convert in most situations, so my hot take is we should just ignore it

19 minutes ago, Aeternum said:

I will you should come join, the only rule is no spiking the pizza!

I am made of spikes, but I can try my best not to spike the pizza

[Aeternum]

14 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

it's entirely possible that there's a convert, but afaik they wouldn't *know* they're a convert in most situations, so my hot take is we should just ignore it

Right, I remember asking about this yesterday lol

If I pull up my notes (whoops I deleted them again)

Drake, Kas, Lightringer all town

Coffee presumably town

Aeo hasn't been cc'd?

RBM smth smth likely town?

TUO probably elim or Kandra

Stick Kelsier

Aet probably e/3p

plus there is 3 NPCs, I don't think anyone's claimed Drunk, Oracle, and idk there's probably more roles I'm forgetting. Small goldfish brain does not hold much information at a time

From my perspective, pretty sure (lol off I go again) Aet/TUO makes sense as a solve. Also the only two to have claimed something false at first, since TUO basically anti-towned, and because Stick has not claimed actual role that is now me, but assuming Aeo & RBM are both town, it does make sense that TUO/me is a solve? Am curious about Aeo, it's possible e!Aeo claimed a role that no one's cc'd because it's a NPC role. Actually, maybe things are more complicated. I feel like I'm sitting in a corner talking to a wall while everyone shakes their heads because I think I've said this so many times, when do I shut up smh

Anyways now I want to consider possible e!RBM or e!Aeo worlds lol.

Maybe I should make this game more exciting hmmm.

Spoiler

Also I'm sorry for posting so much this game, pls accept a free slice of pizza as apology.

 

14 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

I am made of spikes, but I can try my best not to spike the pizza

Thank you for being considerate of our non-spiked friends here

[Kasimir he/him]

12 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said:

Hey what are people's thoughts about there being two jester type roles (both Kelsier and Kandra) in the game?

I sort of feel Kandra is the most likely left out? If only because there would be no Elim doc if there was only Kandra and one of MinSeeker and MinLeader:

On 6/27/2024 at 9:42 PM, CadCom said:

   Kandra spy Ministry wincon-if lynched, acts as a Rebel lynch: The Kandra spy is attempting to infiltrate the rebellion. This character wins if the Elims win. He will know who the Eliminators are, But they will not know who he is, If he is lynched, it is as if a villager is lynched, and the Eliminators win, including himself.

For the Elims to have planned and organised any Day strategy, and if we don't think there's all three Elims, then Kandra Spy is most likely left out.

12 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said:

The distro I would pick is likely 2 conventional elims and 1 jester, and if that's our situation then the amount of trolling and husky screaming happening rn is actually pretty weird, and basically requires that the actual elims premeditated it in their doc last night.

Yeah basically kandra can't do this.

10 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said:

If we execute both the Kandra and a Ministry member, that's still a village win, right? The rules say the Kandra dying counts as a villager death, and the village wins if they hit an elim even if they also hit a villager.

@CadCom?

10 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said:

Minimally, Stick, Aeternum, and 1 in <TUO, Aeoryi> is evil. I think this is pretty much confirmed.

Looks like it to me.

10 hours ago, Aeoryi said:

Easy. Eliminate one person, if they're the hazekiller and villa, they vengeful the other claimer. If they aren't the hazekiller, they're ministry.

Tfw the other is Kelsier

6 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said:

The main challenge before us is that we need to somehow judge whether to vote for Stick or TUO. Neither is town, but either could be Kelsier (or Kandra).

That's my take.

8 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said:

useful rules note #5 - rogue hazekiller straight up isn't in the distro for this game

I've asked CadCom just to be sure but I think he warned he couldn't get back in time, because I feel it should be represented in multiple colours if it is in, but is not.

6 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said:

I feel like the main world where this doesn't work is if you and Stick are both Ministry, leaving TUO as one of the jester types. Which, is possible, but I choose not to put as much stock in that world.

Any reason why not?

1 hour ago, DrakeMarshall said:

it's entirely possible that there's a convert, but afaik they wouldn't *know* they're a convert in most situations, so my hot take is we should just ignore it

There's one implication there but IMO it's not worth pursuing because it's even more random a shot than voting based off the day.

TUO

[RoyalBeeMage he/him]

1 hour ago, Aeternum said:

Anyways now I want to consider possible e!RBM or e!Aeo worlds lol.

Maybe I should make this game more exciting hmmm.

  Hide contents

Also I'm sorry for posting so much this game, pls accept a free slice of pizza as apology.

 

2 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said:

I am made of spikes, but I can try my best not to spike the pizza

Thank you for being considerate of our non-spiked friends here

What makes you say that about me 

ooh free non spiked pizza! 

[Stick. she/her]

We should have all votes on TUO just so that there aren’t any last minute shenanigans 

EDIT

also, people need to remember that there isn’t an elim doc during the day. So there’s no elaborate schemes going on here. It’s an easy win  

EDIT

and for double assurance, I’m p sure that TUO instantly claiming a different role when coffee brought the possibility up instead of sticking to his initial CC proves that he is actually not Kandra, since he is trying to live. And then aet is Kelsier. So this is a safe vote. 

[Kasimir he/him]

8 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said:

I feel like the main world where this doesn't work is if you and Stick are both Ministry, leaving TUO as one of the jester types. Which, is possible, but I choose not to put as much stock in that world.

Honestly wrt your comment on the amount of husky screm, IMO I think it's absolutely planned. This is why I don't agree with your confidence level in disregarding this world—Elims likely know they'll get cced out the gate and with the exception of MinSeeker who has a ready-made alibi, Stick's and Aet's plays are textbook Elim team minus the complication of Coffee having swapped them and refusing to lie.

From Stick's POV, if she really started as Kelsier, she should gaf about Aet's starting alignment beyond her brief read. She hasn't been interested and is just trying to basswoof. You could argue it validates Aet starting as Kelsier which I don't super disagree with but then TUA picking a cc is an odd strat. 

The other thought in my head is that everything she accuses TUO of playwise also applies to her—it actively benefits her and Aet to be in that openly shady zone to force the Village away/out from there by scaring the Village out of making the attempt. Real Kelsier would never cc anyway. TUO's strategy seems really awful for an Elim—no coordination, who's going to save him? Making us 50/50 to pick a right answer when he could have just waited or used MinSeeker results? (If MinLead, tough luck.)

Again, the accusation absolutely applies to her and no amount of MU swagger and braggadocio changes it. You can argue that K!her really has to irritate Village to the point of making them fed-up enough to exe her: ok, but suppose we lock in. What then?

I'm too tired to care about splitting the vote but when it turns out we really should have just flipped Stick for obvious Evil play, I told you so.

Edited to add:

I think put it this way. If you entered the game as an Elim knowing massclaiming puts you under pressure, the obvious play is to go for the shelter of the role that means you win if you are exed to scare Village away and FUD. To me, two players are actively invoking Kelsier. The one who is on the lam and supposedly consensus Elim is not. And why is that?

Edited July 7, 2024 by Kasimir

[Aeoryi she/her]

Branch (3)

Avoiding a hammer until rule reread

[Kasimir he/him]

Edited to add 2:

Theoretically if we buy her story, Stick randed Kelsier, swapped with Aet, doesn't really care to confirm her views Aet started Village, and is just running with it because lolwincon. If we buy Aet's story, she's Kelsier now and blatantly Villagesiding.

And no one questions this? An iota?

Stick, who got us to lie to Aeo about balefire even if it theoretically shouldn't have worked, just to eke a bit of advantage? Stick, who continued to hardcore play as Toucan, and who still went as far as possible despite also not wanting to try too hard as Beagle?

I don't feel it makes sense that Stick just goes 'welp Kelsier life is too hard' and decides to hardcore help the Village, when it'd make her outright lose. I think she'd try to inhabit an area more grey than that. You could argue that's what she's doing but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It seems a tad too defeatist.

Edited to add 3:

Suppose it really is as easy as Stick claims it is - TUO is obviously Evil. On her view, Aet is now Kelsier and we're expected to believe she's a Villager right? Because she's been implying she either dgaf if she's Village or, more charitably, is so supremely confident in her early game V!Aet read she's just gonna assume she's Village. So on her worldview, where's the other Elim? Clearly not a one Elim game, right? (I guess you could argue there's just a kandra but that's weird.)

She probably has to say the other Elim is Min!Seeker using their scan to bluff they are a NPC role, but who is it then? Aeo? Royal/Drake/me theoretically are consistent. Royal could have cribbed off the thread, but I also find it a bit less likely. LightRinger is backed by Royal and Aet. Maybe some others I'm forgetting because w00ts flu.

I intensely distrust a player who is normally not content with straightforward answers early on urging us to believe it really is 'that' simple.

[Stick. she/her]

I mean, there’s nothing in Aet’s early play here that is indicative of an elim rand (and let’s be honest, I wouldn’t say it if there was) and so far no one has cased aet’s early game as an elim rand. So there isn’t much for me to be figuring out here with regards to my own alignment, and I’ll note that it did take me a while to get to the e!TUO conclusion and I 180’d on some reads to get there so the progression is evident

[Kasimir he/him]

3 minutes ago, Stick. said:

so far no one has cased aet’s early game as an elim rand.

Coffee disagreed. Aet stated he was playing his E!meta and I don't disagree as he's more visibly engaged when Village. I also note that again, on your view, you are missing an Elim and don't seem to be able to identify one who isn't Aeo.

Edited to add:

I'll also note that response just kind of reeks of the tacit Elim "you have got to have a case to find me sus." It was Aet's opening game - no one is going to draw a hard and fast conclusion off one. If you think it is so defining, then I will expect 100% accuracy from you on D1s based purely on pre-Rollovet reads going forwards.

What has early game Aet done to appear Village? Why is the default Village? Why do you suddenly shift burden of proof conveniently in your game approach?

Edited to add 2:

@DrakeMarshall Anyway I've said my piece. The main reason I'm on TUA is I trust you on mindgames more than I trust me on mindgames. But the whole situation reeks.

[Aeoryi she/her]

17 minutes ago, Stick. said:

I mean, there’s nothing in Aet’s early play here that is indicative of an elim rand (and let’s be honest, I wouldn’t say it if there was) and so far no one has cased aet’s early game as an elim rand. So there isn’t much for me to be figuring out here with regards to my own alignment, and I’ll note that it did take me a while to get to the e!TUO conclusion and I 180’d on some reads to get there so the progression is evident

Hard disagree. I think it's very town indicative.

Stick this gives me game title here vibes

 

Stick 

Actual vote now

[Kasimir he/him]

32 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

Hard disagree. I think it's very town indicative.

Stick this gives me game title here vibes

 

Stick 

Actual vote now

If you think it's very V indicative, shouldn't you be voting TUO since that means Stick swapped to Village?

Anyway I am too tired from the meds to get up/back so I won't be changing my vote. The one point of credit I can give Stick is that E!her shouldn't be cool pushing TUO unless she thinks he's Village or the kandra. I don't really see an Elim encouraging an actual Kelsier vote unless the mentality is better 3p than Village. 

[Aeoryi she/her]

2 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

If you think it's very V indicative, shouldn't you be voting TUO since that means Stick swapped to Village?

Anyway I am too tired from the meds to get up/back so I won't be changing my vote. The one point of credit I can give Stick is that E!her shouldn't be cool pushing TUO unless she thinks he's Village or the kandra. I don't really see an Elim encouraging an actual Kelsier vote unless the mentality is better 3p than Village. 

What I am saying is that what stick is saying is inherently false to me and stick I feel *should* know that.

[Kasimir he/him]

5 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

What I am saying is that what stick is saying is inherently false to me and stick I feel *should* know that.

Where does the town indicativeness come in though?

[Aeoryi she/her]

7 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Where does the town indicativeness come in though?

You must have misinterpreted it. What stick was saying was >rand Elim for Aeternum, I believed it was >rand town for Aeternum 

That does not reflect onto stick. Stick is Elim because she is intentionally misreading people because there are no viable miselims. 

That's why I said I'm getting Game Title Here vibes.

[Stick. she/her]

2 hours ago, Stick. said:

We should have all votes on TUO just so that there aren’t any last minute shenanigans 

EDIT

also, people need to remember that there isn’t an elim doc during the day. So there’s no elaborate schemes going on here. It’s an easy win  

EDIT

and for double assurance, I’m p sure that TUO instantly claiming a different role when coffee brought the possibility up instead of sticking to his initial CC proves that he is actually not Kandra, since he is trying to live. And then aet is Kelsier. So this is a safe vote. 

Just gonna signal boost this and remind everyone that in a one cycle game, consolidation is important or else elims can hammer 

[Kasimir he/him]

6 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

You must have misinterpreted it. What stick was saying was >rand Elim for Aeternum, I believed it was >rand town for Aeternum 

That does not reflect onto stick. Stick is Elim because she is intentionally misreading people because there are no viable miselims. 

That's why I said I'm getting Game Title Here vibes.

Are you willing to walk me through this rq as I might be willing to switch

Stick says her read of early Aet was Village (to be fair, maybe what you're flagging is that she is offering a default rather than V read), therefore given Coffee's uncontested switch claim and no contest on Aet, she's playing under the assumption she's Village. I'm saying that Coffee, myself, and IIRC, Drake were all less sure about Aet so it's simply not true that there's a consensus there.

[Aeoryi she/her]

5 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Are you willing to walk me through this rq as I might be willing to switch

Stick says her read of early Aet was Village (to be fair, maybe what you're flagging is that she is offering a default rather than V read), therefore given Coffee's uncontested switch claim and no contest on Aet, she's playing under the assumption she's Village. I'm saying that Coffee, myself, and IIRC, Drake were all less sure about Aet so it's simply not true that there's a consensus there.

I'm not saying it is consensus- I understand that Art is one of the most discussed names.

Is stick proposing v!Aeternum or e!Aeternum?

Even then it's still kind of a silly read.

The Unknown Aons

[Stick. she/her]

neither, im saying hes kelsier

 

EDIT

thanks for switching \o/

[Stick. she/her]

Stick

welp. so close.