EdgedancerJacob he/him Posted May 14 Report Share Posted May 14 This has been on my mind since we first learned how Radiant spren bond humans... I've found discussions covering if you want Adolin to be a Radiant, or if you think he will in WaT -- but why has no spren approached Adolin for a bond? I understand it from a writing and storytelling perspective, but in-world, he has many of the characteristics they're looking for. Curious for everyone's thoughts! (Sorry if this has been asked a million times! I'm new here.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowspren Posted May 14 Report Share Posted May 14 Hmmmm. That's a really interesting question! I feel like Adolin wielding a dead spren would make other spren uncomfortable about approaching him. I do think we will see more happen with Adolin and Myra in Wind and Truth though. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted May 14 Report Share Posted May 14 8 hours ago, EdgedancerJacob said: This has been on my mind since we first learned how Radiant spren bond humans... I've found discussions covering if you want Adolin to be a Radiant, or if you think he will in WaT -- but why has no spren approached Adolin for a bond? I understand it from a writing and storytelling perspective, but in-world, he has many of the characteristics they're looking for. Curious for everyone's thoughts! (Sorry if this has been asked a million times! I'm new here.) Because he's bonded with a Shardblade - a deadeye spren - and spren don't like this idea at all. Syl has a very negative opinion about people carrying Shardblades, Stormfather told Dalinar that he has to abandon his Shardblade in order to bond him, Kaladin told Adolin that if he were to abandon Maya, he might attract a spren. Even Pattern doesn't like that. Adolin is carrying a corpse of their dead friend, of course spren would feel offended and avoid him. WoR ch 16: Quote “I don’t like them,” she said airily. “Either one. Adolin or Renarin.” “You don’t like anyone who carries Shards.” “Exactly.” “You called the Blades abominations before,” Kaladin said. “But the Radiants carried them. So were the Radiants wrong to do so?” “Of course not,” she said, sounding like he was saying something completely stupid. “The Shards weren’t abominations back then.” WoR ch 89: Quote VERY WELL, the Stormfather finally said. THESE WORDS ARE ACCEPTED. Dalinar smiled. I WILL NOT BE A SIMPLE SWORD TO YOU, the Stormfather warned. I WILL NOT COME AS YOU CALL, AND YOU WILL HAVE TO DIVEST YOURSELF OF THAT . . . MONSTROSITY THAT YOU CARRY. YOU WILL BE A RADIANT WITH NO SHARDS. “It will be what it must,” Dalinar said, summoning his Shardblade. As soon as it appeared, screams sounded in his head. He dropped the weapon as if it were an eel that had snapped at him. The screams vanished immediately. The Blade clanged to the ground. Unbonding a Shardblade was supposed to be a difficult process, requiring concentration and touching its stone. Yet this one was severed from him in an instant. He could feel it. OB ch 18: Quote “Very well,” Pattern said. “But I like him.” “You hate his sword.” “I have come to understand,” Pattern said, growing excited. “Humans … humans don’t care about the dead. You build chairs and doors out of corpses! You eat corpses! You make clothing from the skins of corpses. Corpses are things to you.” “Well, I guess that’s true.” He seemed unnaturally excited by the revelation. “It is grotesque,” he continued, “but you all must kill and destroy to live. It is the way of the Physical Realm. So I should not hate Adolin Kholin for wielding a corpse!” RoW ch 12: Quote “It’s that sword of yours,” Kaladin said. “Shardbearers do better if they drop any old Shards. You need to get rid of yours.” “I’m not ‘getting rid’ of Maya.” 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgedancerJacob he/him Posted May 14 Author Report Share Posted May 14 4 hours ago, alder24 said: Because he's bonded with a Shardblade That makes total sense. Sometimes the obvious answer is the correct answer -- thanks! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CtrlAltDepressed Posted May 14 Report Share Posted May 14 17 hours ago, EdgedancerJacob said: I understand it from a writing and storytelling perspective, but in-world, he has many of the characteristics they're looking for. My head canon is that he is already taken by Maya. Their bond is clearly unique given her awareness. I think we will see him revive her and become a Radiant with Maya as his spren. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Child of Hodor Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 (edited) In addition to having a deadeye blade he’s also well-adjusted psychologicly. Szeth, Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Renarin, Lift, Teft have, uh, some difficulties that seem to be a part of what attracts radiant Spren. Quote BusinessCress In Stormlight Archive, all three main characters, Dalinar, Shallan and Kaladin, suffer from various mental health issues. Is that a normal psychological condition for all Radiants or the lead three is an extreme example of how people break? Brandon Sanderson I am very interested in mental health, and the way that we--as human beings--react to and interpret the world around us in different ways. This is a theme of the Stormlight books, but it's going to take a lot of work to do it justice--and I want to approach it from different directions. So yes, it's a theme, and these sorts of issues were common for Knights Radiant. But I'd point out that they are also common themes for being human. And one of the correlations between orders of Knights Radiant is people who overcome, persist, and push through very difficult trials. Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 4, 2018) Edited May 15 by Child of Hodor 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 3 hours ago, Child of Hodor said: some difficulties that seem to be a part of what attracts radiant Spren. Well, it can be a factor - the capacity for change and growth is more important that being "broken." MIstborn Slight Spoilers and WoBs: Spoiler Mistborn Slight Spoilers: Spoiler It is related to Snapping on Scadrial - but not quite the same: Quote Questioner So there’s Snapping on Scadrial, where an event happens and then you can use the magic. Is there something like Snapping on Roshar, where... Brandon Sanderson Yes and no. They’re working under the same sort of assumption, the spren are just looking for a specific thing that is similar to what Snapping does. Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016) Quote Brandon Sanderson HoA Annotations to Chapter Seventy (Edited for length and relevance) This has to do with the relationship between the Cognitive Realm, the Physical Realm, and the Spiritual Realm—of which I don't have time to speak right now. Suffice it to say that there are people who have Snapped because of intense joy or other emotions. It just doesn't happen as frequently and is more difficult to control. The Hero of Ages Annotations (March 30, 2010) WoBs: Quote Questioner How was Shallan able to bond with Pattern before she was broken? Brandon Sanderson She was open to him even before she went through a lot of that turmoil Questioner I thought everybody had to be broken in order to-- Brandon Sanderson Well, that's their philosophy in-world. But I'm not going to say whether it's correct or wrong. I will imply that there are other means as well. Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017) Quote Kogiopsis Is neurodiversity a requirement to become a Radiant? Like do you have to be non-neurotypical? Brandon Sanderson Read the back of Words of Radiance for your answer, the back of the cover. Footnote: The relevant passage from the back of Words of Radiance reads: It is the nature of the magic. A broken soul has cracks into which something else can be fit. Surgebindings, the powers of creation themselves. They can brace a broken soul; but they can also widen its fissures. Words of Radiance Portland signing (March 7, 2014) Quote AndrewStirlingMacDonald (paraphrased) Is being a little bit crazy a prerequisite to becoming a Knight Radiant? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Well, so, for many of the cosmere magics to work, you have to... it has to get into the soul somehow. Right? [Mistborn Spoilers Redacted] Sometimes, it just seeps in the cracks. Sometimes the bond allows it to kind of bypass some of this, but it's usually traumatic experience. So crazy is not required, but there's got to be a place for the magic to go, to get in. Shadows of Self Boston signing (Oct. 14, 2015) So the important part are cracks in the spiritweb - which do not have to originate in madness or pain. And some Spren can make their own cracks. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgedancerJacob he/him Posted May 15 Author Report Share Posted May 15 9 hours ago, Child of Hodor said: he’s also well-adjusted psychologicly I have thought this as well, though I wondered if he's starting to 'crack' a bit after finding out about his father's actions in Rathalas. We didn't get much resolution between he and Dalinar in RoW, and I imagine (despite what he says) it's eating him inside. 5 hours ago, Treamayne said: Well, it can be a factor - the capacity for change and growth is more important that being "broken." Adolin's arc in RoW -- about finding new ways to help a cause that doesn't need his manpower anymore -- shows his capacity for growth! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heilven he/him Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 9 hours ago, Child of Hodor said: In addition to having a deadeye blade he’s also well-adjusted psychologicly. I would not say adolin is well adjusted. His issues are less obvious than the others we've seen, but a big part of that is because of the nature of his issues. I would not call him well adjusted 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Child of Hodor Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 1 hour ago, Heilven said: I would not say adolin is well adjusted. His issues are less obvious than the others we've seen, but a big part of that is because of the nature of his issues. I would not call him well adjusted I suppose I was thinking of him relative to Kaladin and Shallan and how he is able to consistently be there for them when they are having a hard time. Now that I think about it he did murder a guy and recently learned his dad accidently burned his mom to death while intentionally burning an entire city and he really hasn't dealt with either thing emotionally. Given all that I think you are correct well-adjusted is not the right thing to say about him 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heilven he/him Posted May 16 Report Share Posted May 16 22 hours ago, Child of Hodor said: I suppose I was thinking of him relative to Kaladin and Shallan and how he is able to consistently be there for them when they are having a hard time I'd argue that that's actually a part of it. Since Dalinar was either not around or drunk during his childhood, he had to learn to be there for Renarin and his Mother. So I'd argue a lot of his issues stem from this specifically. There are certainly recent events that compound this, but I wouldn't even call him well adjusted during WoK. He just puts on the image of someone well adjusted. There's a reason why he can't keep a courtship after all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazarusLong Posted May 19 Report Share Posted May 19 (edited) Adolin is not for spren bonding, he's too perfect for that. Adolin is for resurrecting Maya and bonding with her, paving the way for the resurrection of all other spren lost to the recreance. Then we get to see what all the real spren who chose to bond with humans back in the day are like. edit: Oh yeah you get it in writing perspective. In-world I think it could be explained similarly. A lot of spren that would otherwise bond him see the connection he has with the deadeye and are either a little in awe of it or frightened by it. Radiant's can't use dead spren armor so maybe a guy that hugs his dead spren close like adolin, no matter how perfect he is, won't get approached by a spren. The spren have a really big taboo with deadeyes. Edited May 19 by LazarusLong 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+hwiles Posted May 23 Report Share Posted May 23 On 5/13/2024 at 10:08 PM, EdgedancerJacob said: This has been on my mind since we first learned how Radiant spren bond humans... I've found discussions covering if you want Adolin to be a Radiant, or if you think he will in WaT -- but why has no spren approached Adolin for a bond? I understand it from a writing and storytelling perspective, but in-world, he has many of the characteristics they're looking for. Curious for everyone's thoughts! (Sorry if this has been asked a million times! I'm new here.) Honestly, it might just be because only single people seem to ever get chosen for a spren bond and Adolin almost always has a girlfriend. Plus, there's the dead spren blade that he carries that acts like radiant spren repellent...and there are just other stronger candidates who are objectively more mature while also more spiritually damaged which technically makes the process of leading them to swear soul-binding oaths easier. Adolin may be a good person or great character depending on one's perspective, buuuut...he might just possess too many hurdles and barriers to radianthood to be an attractive candidate from the perspective of a spren. Recall, radiancy is technically a form of mutually parasitic relationship; a bond with Adolin might just be too one-sided to be worthwhile. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgedancerJacob he/him Posted May 23 Author Report Share Posted May 23 2 hours ago, hwiles said: it might just be because only single people seem to ever get chosen for a spren bond Not sure if that's true! I mean, Dalinar bonded the Stormfather while dating and subsequently marrying Navani, and multiple members of Bridge Four are dating someone. 2 hours ago, hwiles said: a bond with Adolin might just be too one-sided to be worthwhile. Also not sure that this is true. Adolin continuously proves his selflessness, especially as the story goes on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+hwiles Posted May 23 Report Share Posted May 23 5 minutes ago, EdgedancerJacob said: Not sure if that's true! I mean, Dalinar bonded the Stormfather while dating and subsequently marrying Navani, and multiple members of Bridge Four are dating someone. Also not sure that this is true. Adolin continuously proves his selflessness, especially as the story goes on. These are fair points. To them, I would opine that bondsmiths are a little different; their spren don't seem to gain additional cognitive function or presence in the physical realm than they already possess as their radiant swears additional oaths like those of the other 9 orders. To the second...I don't have a good rebuttal. Adolin could very likely steel himself to swear the oaths of any of several of the orders and evolve himself into a serviceable knight. The issue is one of 'need' as I see it. He has a loving family, a robust support network, and no severe disabilities or hardships to conquer. He's the perfect picture of a prince. Once you account for also being in a loving romantic relationship, well...what leverage would a spren have to push or influence him to progress along a specific path of radiancy? He's been in battle, he's proved his Valor, he's served alongside his men, he has witnessed death, and...none of it broke him because it was his duty and he was born and trained for it. The other radiants we see usually have some failing, flaw, or unfortunate backstory that shoved them to where they are, OR, they are so uniquely powerful and influential as a stand-alone citizen of Roshar (like Jasnah or Hoid) that a spren felt compelled to bond them (ie: massive parasitic benefit from the relationship). Recall, Roshar is at war. In a time of peace, adolin might be easy enough and beneficial enough to recruit. In a war with low spren populations, fear and mistrust in every direction, and broken-but-exceptional candidates like kaladin and szeth, who are...for lack of a better word 'want' to swear soul-binding oaths, I just perceive Adolin just being too difficult for them to control. I recognize that's not fair per se, but...there it is. I see no reason that he couldn't put his blade down and join just about any order in the back 5 books though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aredor he/him Posted May 23 Report Share Posted May 23 2 hours ago, hwiles said: Honestly, it might just be because only single people seem to ever get chosen for a spren bond and Adolin almost always has a girlfriend Sorry, what? This makes no sense at all. Why would it matter what relationship status someone has for them to get a spren? In fact, both Navani and Stargyle among others were married before they bonded a spren, as well (I'd put Rock in there as well but he never actually bonded a spren). Just because it's the norm for our main characters doesn't mean it's the rule. RoW ch. 12 Quote “It’s that sword of yours,” Kaladin said. “Shardbearers do better if they drop any old Shards. You need to get rid of yours.” “I’m not ‘getting rid’ of Maya.” Adolin hasn't become Radiant because he carries around a dead blade. He's one of the best fits for an Edgedancer we've seen. I think at least one cultivationspren would have bonded him at this point if he had given up Maya. 2 hours ago, hwiles said: a bond with Adolin might just be too one-sided to be worthwhile. Well, what would be the difference between Syl bonding Kaladin and this? What about Lift/Wyndle? Adolin is one of the most powerful people in the world right now. He's even down with his men so he knows how to help them and what they need. He's in a position to help a boatload of people if he gets a bond. He knows that, and so does the spren in question. 3 minutes ago, hwiles said: what leverage would a spren have to push or influence him to progress along a specific path of radiancy? He's been in battle, he's proved his Valor, he's served alongside his men, he has witnessed death, and...none of it broke him because it was his duty and he was born and trained for it. cough cough Sadeas cough cough I think in the end, the reason he hasn't given up Maya and become a Radiant is because he has a bond with Maya. At first, it was just the bond of friendship, but now... something new happened at the end of the trial. They're Connected now. Adolin would never abandon her at this point. If he were to become Radiant, he'd do it with Maya. If not, then he'd refuse the spren that asked him because he will not give her up for anything. 11 minutes ago, hwiles said: I see no reason that he couldn't put his blade down and join just about any order in the back 5 books though. Nooooo! Adolin can't abandon Maya! He's not allowed! I just really like both Adolin and Maya, if you couldn't tell... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+hwiles Posted May 23 Report Share Posted May 23 1 hour ago, Aredor said: Sorry, what? This makes no sense at all. Why would it matter what relationship status someone has for them to get a spren? In fact, both Navani and Stargyle among others were married before they bonded a spren, as well (I'd put Rock in there as well but he never actually bonded a spren). Just because it's the norm for our main characters doesn't mean it's the rule. Hahaha. I didn't mean to suggest that it's a rule. Buuuuut...compelling a homeless man with no girlfriend, who serves as a slave soldier, and who's mind is very nearly emotionally shattered and drained to swear life-altering oaths is...just always going to be easier and a more 'sure-thing' than doing the same for a prince supported by devoted followers who stands on (more-or-less) politically stable footing... Pretty sure it's implied somewhere in the books that families were common among Radiants at one point between the last desolation and the recreance, but this was when they were at the peak of their power and recruitment should have been the easiest it ever was. Currently, they're the most battered, disorganized, and (relatively speaking) weak that they have ever been so...the spren seem to be gravitating towards the most extreme and surefire bets they can find: people who live and breath the values of their order and have literally nothing else left in their lives. As things improve I would be shocked if we didn't see a return to more traditional structures among radiants. That said, if you're on roshar and want to become a Radiant in book 5, you might have a hard time joining if you aren't an active military member and also have a loving significant other, because...people like that just don't typically volunteer to serve in global wars, which is what they need from the radiants in the short term. Who knows though? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rorzikel Posted May 25 Report Share Posted May 25 Cracks in the soul don’t necessitate a current DSM-IV diagnosis. Adolin has definitely suffered trauma, and no you don’t need to conform to some expected outcome. The death of a mother as a young child, a ptsd-riddled alcoholic war veteran (who didn’t get his act together for over a decade) for a father, an uncle assassinated, his father suddenly having fits during highstorms and claiming he was speaking to God, a brother with neurodivergence and epilepsy equivalent that was struggling to adapt to a toxic society, the reveal that his father killed his mother by burning down the Rift. What more do you want, three breakdowns before lunch onscreen? I’d say he counts, given his history and his reactions with Sadeas, but here’s Brandon redefining what he meant with “broken” being a flawed term and Lopen being meant to contrast with some of it: (bolding, mine) Quote Spencer Walther Lopen clearly states he doesn't consider himself a broken character, like all the other Knights. Do you consider him a broken character? Brandon Sanderson I do not. And, again, "broken" is a term with a lot of baggage, let's point that out. I would rather use the terminology that a given person is comfortable with, and let them put definitions on that themselves. Because the way I view it, I don't really view most people as "broken," even if they may use that terminology. What they might have is, they might have certain mental health issues that they haven't yet figured out how to work with that are integral to who they are. But not broken, just still practicing. And that's how I would define a lot of people, but I don't get to define it for those people, if that makes sense. And one of the things I like to do is to have a variety of viewpoints in my stories, to make sure I'm kind of running the gamut on this, and I think some of the characters in my stories would say, "Yeah. Something in me's broken. You can talk about all the funny business you want, Brandon, about just needing to practice. Something in me's broken, and I need to learn to deal with that. Either fix it, or learn to not let it ruin me." And there are people that I've talked to, that that's how they've described it. I've talked to other people who say, "No, I'm not broken. 'Broken' implies I'm a less valuable person, because of that phrasing." That is something that I never want to imply. And so it is a dangerous word to use. I let people in fiction use it, because people in real life use it. But just wanted you to be aware of that. So, the idea that a person needs to be "broken" to be a Knight Radiant is a part of the world that a lot of people talk about. I actually intend Lopen to be a counterargument to that. But people in-world would disagree with me. They'd say, "No no no, he's got some of these things." But if Lopen has them, we all have them. So there are no not-broken people, which also makes the word "broken" just completely wrong phrase to use, if that makes sense. So, that is how I view it. But I admit that some of my characters would disagree with me. YouTube Livestream 7 (May 7, 2020) Truly there has been no greater wound to Adolin Kholin discourse than the phrase “golden retriever boyfriend”. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elder Posted Wednesday at 10:48 AM Report Share Posted Wednesday at 10:48 AM Crazy idea, but I think Adolin might actually be the one who ends up balancing the 3 Shards on Roshar. Honor: certainly not perfect in this (killing Sadeas) but he is definitely an honorable warrior and duelist who cares about the people around him. His Father has taught him well (recently). Cultivation: his relationship with Maya, not to mention his well cultivated wardrobe. And how he cares for Shallan, Kaladin, and Renarin. Odium: He’s definitely capable of holding a grudge. And Killing Sadeas. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isilel Posted Wednesday at 11:52 AM Report Share Posted Wednesday at 11:52 AM On 5/14/2024 at 6:40 AM, Snowspren said: I feel like Adolin wielding a dead spren would make other spren uncomfortable about approaching him. Didn't stop Timbre with Eshonai, Design with Ehlokar, Pattern with Shallan or even the Stormfather with Dalinar! We should be careful not to consider Syl's or Honorspren opinions to be universal. So far we have seen about half of early Radiants entering the early stages of bonding despite having deadblades. It is possible that opinions of spren, who would fit Adolin best, are aligned with Syl's, or that the depth of his bond with Maya warned them off. Or that he is too balanced without clear tendency towards one particular Order. I know that the murder of Sadeas gets brought up often, but let's not forget that Jasnah had ordered a number of assassinations and it didn't stop her from attracting a spren. And Shallan's motivation for killing her father is quite similar to Adollin's for killing Sadeas and ditto. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aredor he/him Posted Wednesday at 04:12 PM Report Share Posted Wednesday at 04:12 PM 4 hours ago, Isilel said: It is possible that opinions of spren, who would fit Adolin best, are aligned with Syl's, or that the depth of his bond with Maya warned them off. Or that he is too balanced without clear tendency towards one particular Order At this point, I think that it wouldn't matter if a spren approached him with an offer to bond. I think he'd probably refuse the bond outright just because of his friendship with Maya. If one had asked before the battle of Taken Thaylen City, he probably would have agreed, but because he saw Maya for who she is instead of just a Blade, and on top of that got her name because of his kindness to her in Shadesmar there's no way he's accepting a bond now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Spirit he/him Posted Thursday at 10:22 PM Report Share Posted Thursday at 10:22 PM On 6/5/2024 at 7:52 AM, Isilel said: Didn't stop Timbre with Eshonai, Design with Ehlokar, Pattern with Shallan or even the Stormfather with Dalinar! We should be careful not to consider Syl's or Honorspren opinions to be universal. So far we have seen about half of early Radiants entering the early stages of bonding despite having deadblades. I agree. Maybe some spren are put off by shardblades, but we’ve seen several counter examples. I think realistically, there weren’t a lot of spren willing to bond until RoW (there were like 8-9 radiants in OB) and by that point he’s connected enough with Maya to not be interested in bonding another spren. (Although it definitely feels like it would be mentioned in RoW if another spren did approach him. I will note that several true spren in OB and RoW refuse to acknowledge that Maya is more than a normal deadeye, which would make him a viable candidate. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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