Mid-Range Game 66: Knights of Wind and Truth

[Kasimir he/him]

12 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

Shoulda killed the stonewards smh Mat

Don't you mean Lightweavers?  Wit can certainly be an honorary Stoneward if he wants - in my book, he's earned it.

1 hour ago, Aeoryi said:

1. Would've been able to kill stink, abrasion myself, kill Kas, and leave with a 2 v 1 with Devo 5EC vs Wit LW and TJ, where the lynch is a tie or TJ doesn't use tension and gets RB'd

FWIW you didn't need 3DB for this. With the way Devo and I were planning the final set of actions/dispositions, I think the PtV for you guys would've been:

-You DB shoot me.
-Devo RBs STINK and kills him. What she saw, but all three of us (Fifth, myself, Devo) missed was that since Fifth endorses RB transitivity rules, Devo RBing STINK opens you up to use your kill shot.
-Shooting me as I'm the guaranteed kill - I forgot Wit was redirecting.
-TJ and Wit v. Devo - TJ would have to Tension Wit, and Wit has a 50% chance of a correct redirect. If Wit guesses wrong, Devo shoots the undefended partner. If she doesn't, she has to contend with a Return to Sender but has 50% survivability. 
-If Devo guesses right, she goes to the next round 1v1 and wipes the floor with TJ unless TJ gains BS4, and forces a mutual draw.
-If Wit is the final survivor, as long as the votes are a tie, Devo murders him and another mutual kill results.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Kasimir

[Araris Valerian he/him]

Thanks @Fifth Scholar for running this game! Had fun writing a character, even if my overconfidence got me killed early. Nice to know my instincts on Mat were right, even if I couldn't express them clearly. Good game everyone, and see you in the next one!

[Mat he/him]

3 hours ago, Aeoryi said:

Shoulda killed the stonewards smh Mat

Don’t look at the guy who wanted to C1 Kas :P. And then was like ‘ehhh he’s just a SW nvm’ but we don’t talk about that

Also don’t beat yourself up too hard. As I said in the dead doc, you did reeeeeally good at keeping a consistent tone and engagement level across alignments, which is not something I’m good at. With a little more experience in the logistics of elimming you will become truly terrifying to play against 

Had fun during those panic planning sessions an hour before EoD, Devo  Let’s do it earlier next time

Feel like I had more to say but I forgot it. I definitely made some crucial mistakes (not rping c1, not having aeo submit the c2 kill) but it’s all good I suppose, at least for the radiants

[Kasimir he/him]

4 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Don’t look at the guy who wanted to C1 Kas :P. And then was like ‘ehhh he’s just a SW nvm’ but we don’t talk about that

Ngl that was why I claimed C1 to everyone I could - more or less transparently similar to what I was thinking in LG96. I reasoned that Elims might want Tension, and would try to pocket me (I'm fine being pocketed - my V!side philosophy is to just let them reel you in so you can stab them in the face at a convenient opportunity, which TJ and apparently Devo paranoided af about. Elims often tend to overestimate the depth of the pocket and assume you aren't going to rethink, which is a notorious E blindspot, comes I think from being the informed minority, but it's something worth exploiting a lot of times as a Villager because when you are pocketed, you become an E!asset they can argue against not killing this cycle, and your job is to make this cycle crucial  ), or that they might believe I was not a threat (true!) and focus on actual PR hunting.

Basically: I either get left alive and given time to correct my reads/establish myself in the game, or I guarantee a C1 shot (and in fact, a failed shot once Araris was on board with this) that gives Araris 2LW and ostensibly takes out a SW, which felt like an eminently disposable role. (Listen Fifth I get it but I was the glorified Tineye on stilts! And you did plan for me to be a kamikase role!) I also did need to find roles to give Tension to, and I'd resolved to play this game more aggressively, with Maili-style roletrading. So that's what fell out.

In a way, I guess: so - sort of according to keikaku.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Kasimir

[Archer he/him]

Feeling a little embarrassed to see I absolutely bailed Mat out C1 (sorry Aman). And it's a good thing I died before pushing a Wit exe. But otherwise, everything worked perfectly, ammiright 

Thanks for running this, GM, IM. I liked that the game was complex while still having a comprehensible rules doc. 

[Mat he/him]

1 hour ago, Archer said:

Feeling a little embarrassed to see I absolutely bailed Mat out C1 (sorry Aman). And it's a good thing I died before pushing a Wit exe. But otherwise, everything worked perfectly, ammiright 

It’s okay, your comically timed C3 case made up for it  

[Aeoryi she/her]

6 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Ngl that was why I claimed C1 to everyone I could - more or less transparently similar to what I was thinking in LG96. I reasoned that Elims might want Tension, and would try to pocket me (I'm fine being pocketed - my V!side philosophy is to just let them reel you in so you can stab them in the face at a convenient opportunity, which TJ and apparently Devo paranoided af about. Elims often tend to overestimate the depth of the pocket and assume you aren't going to rethink, which is a notorious E blindspot, comes I think from being the informed minority, but it's something worth exploiting a lot of times as a Villager because when you are pocketed, you become an E!asset they can argue against not killing this cycle, and your job is to make this cycle crucial  ), or that they might believe I was not a threat (true!) and focus on actual PR hunting.

Basically: I either get left alive and given time to correct my reads/establish myself in the game, or I guarantee a C1 shot (and in fact, a failed shot once Araris was on board with this) that gives Araris 2LW and ostensibly takes out a SW, which felt like an eminently disposable role. (Listen Fifth I get it but I was the glorified Tineye on stilts! And you did plan for me to be a kamikase role!) I also did need to find roles to give Tension to, and I'd resolved to play this game more aggressively, with Maili-style roletrading. So that's what fell out.

In a way, I guess: so - sort of according to keikaku.

Ironically, tension was actually one of the most important things in the end. 

Okay. Here's some minor adjustments I might make to the rules/roles of this game

1. It might be worthy to remove the 2 kill limit on division and just outright remove skybreakers from the roles available. This solves the too much RB problem and makes the kills more powerful and less reserved. It should also be noted that Skybreakers having a pseudo scan, RB and kill all in one is a bit powerful. Also, this could be justified as most skybreakers do not serve the side of Dalinar

2. Out of all the abilities, I feel like Abrasion, Adhesion, Tension, Progression and Gravitation are the most balanced. The division limits were well thought out, I feel, but certain surges were... A bit more powerful than others.

A) Cohesion is quite weak. It doesn't have a great place in everything. I feel like the 4SW made up for it, but it did not help WS. Perhaps making it able to open another PM or something could be a cool fix/addition to this ability.

b) Transportation was quite chance based. We saw at the end, most e!victory relied on 50% chance of Devo living. Instead, I would make it just guaranteed, since it can be role-blocked.

c) Transformation is quite Elim coded, being the Swiss army knife. I'm not sure if this one necessarily needs fixing, however.

d) Illumination is quite powerful, since it can give you the effects of abrasion without having to have the same 1 cycle cooldown limitations, since you can redirect to the person being Exe'd. Ultimately, it is the most powerful ability on the board. Maybe, instead, make it so you can't redirect from the same person twice in a row.

3. Actually loved the ideal thing. That's one thing I would definitely keep.

10 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

It’s okay, your comically timed C3 case made up for it  

I think all of our interpersonal arguments being used a distancing tactic is great for not being attached to e!mat.

[Kasimir he/him]

Going to contradict some of these as I don't want these taken as uncontroversial for feedback for next round:

- Cohesion is fine IMO. You get to advance faster than pretty much everyone else. Not every Surge needs to be frontloaded for the KR. The ability of Cohesion to detect redirects IMO is also pretty decent, as is some phishing uses of the ability, even if I chose to play things straight rather than go there. Keeping in mind it effectively let me clear Raven. It's an informational ability and I'm cool with that.

- Transportation passive cannot be roleblocked. The 50% chance feels alright in that light, but does make advances for the WS feel pretty underwhelming.

- SBs are fine to me: I do think two was a bit much, given we also had a WR. I'd rather say Division and NKs shouldn't be differentiated, which still keeps the Ideal but prevents the SB from knowing for sure.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Kasimir

[Aeoryi she/her]

19 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Going to contradict some of these as I don't want these taken as uncontroversial for feedback for next round:

- Cohesion is fine IMO. You get to advance faster than pretty much everyone else. Not every Surge needs to be frontloaded for the KR. The ability of Cohesion to detect redirects IMO is also pretty decent, as is some phishing uses of the ability, even if I chose to play things straight rather than go there. Keeping in mind it effectively let me clear Raven. It's an informational ability and I'm cool with that.

- Transportation passive cannot be roleblocked. The 50% chance feels alright in that light, but does make advances for the WS feel pretty underwhelming.

- SBs are fine to me: I do think two was a bit much, given we also had a WR. I'd rather say Division and NKs shouldn't be differentiated, which still keeps the Ideal but prevents the SB from knowing for sure.

I mean, the Elim team had 1 role block the village had:

2 SB

1 WR

2 lightweavers 

2 Bondsmiths

1 stoneward

So there was 5 RBs flying around, not counting redirects, in which a total interference would end up to be:

3 illumination surges

2 transformation surges

3 gravitation surges

1 4th ideal stubborn stoneward

2 tension users

1 abrasion user

And the Elim team had

2 abrasion users

1 transformation surge

And so as a result of this, there was a whole lot of uncertainty revolving around actions.

I mean the only problem for transportation is that you have 50% chance of dodging a kill compared to 1/2 the time being able to dodge everything with abrasion, and it just seems weaker. Maybe it should be higher.

19 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Going to contradict some of these as I don't want these taken as uncontroversial for feedback for next round:

- Cohesion is fine IMO. You get to advance faster than pretty much everyone else. Not every Surge needs to be frontloaded for the KR. The ability of Cohesion to detect redirects IMO is also pretty decent, as is some phishing uses of the ability, even if I chose to play things straight rather than go there. Keeping in mind it effectively let me clear Raven. It's an informational ability and I'm cool with that.

- Transportation passive cannot be roleblocked. The 50% chance feels alright in that light, but does make advances for the WS feel pretty underwhelming.

- SBs are fine to me: I do think two was a bit much, given we also had a WR. I'd rather say Division and NKs shouldn't be differentiated, which still keeps the Ideal but prevents the SB from knowing for sure.

I agree with the last point. Since protected/RB'd kills are not announced or differentiated, it would make sense not to differentiate kills.

And yeah 2 SB is a bittt strong. 

Cohesion for SW actually works, but for WS it feels a bit weak, combined with the 50% passive from transportation, it just puts them behind I feel. Then again, most of the roles are already fairly strong.

Overall, that's just my opinion. Take it as you will.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Aeoryi

[Kasimir he/him]

8 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

So there was 5 RBs flying around, not counting redirects, in which a total interference would end up to be:

Keep in mind Transformation roleblocks skew off as the game carries on - they roleblock one random action, which can be bonkers weak in a landscape with three action slots and an extra free kill, effectively a 25% chance of getting the right action. Only Gravitation roleblocks are absolute, and this is where I agree 3 of 'em in a game is too many.

9 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

And so as a result of this, there was a whole lot of uncertainty revolving around actions.

That's a distro and intel problem, not a design problem.

9 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

I mean the only problem for transportation is that you have 50% chance of dodging a kill compared to 1/2 the time being able to dodge everything with abrasion, and it just seems weaker. Maybe it should be higher.

Yes, but it's also a target scan though. It's effectively a passive and active. I agree with the idea the WS needs more love, I just don't think Transportation is clearly broken.

10 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

Cohesion for SW actually works, but for WS it feels a bit weak, combined with the 50% passive from transportation, it just puts them behind I feel. Then again, most of the roles are already fairly strong.

Fair. Yeah, WS lags as the red-headed stepchild.

[Fifth Scholar he/him]

28 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Fair. Yeah, WS lags as the red-headed stepchild.

I think WS gets red-headed stepchild vibes because it is the only role without a RB, RD, or means of preventing/dodging them. Not a fan of messing with Transportation because it isn’t bad to start and in a v!Elsecaller world, will already give Elims a massive headache from Third Ideal and up. Cohesion isn’t bad either, but doesn’t necessarily pair well with Transportation which is why I think the best way to go about fixing WS is to give them something good for Fourth Ideal. Also possible to allow Transportation to shield against the Exe as well, but in that case I might make it less of a passive.

[Fifth Scholar he/him]

23 hours ago, JNV said:

Holy Ruin Destroyer of Worlds and Elims who didnt really destroy any elims out

Holy Ruin, 

Destroying worlds all across time:

His end? Survivors arise,

Survivors end his time across all worlds, 

Destroying ruin wholly.

[Elandera she/her]

Congratulations to the Loyal Knights Radiant for winning this Rosharan game! And of course, thank you to Fifth Scholar for running it!

As always, if anyone would like to try their hand at running a game, please get ahold of Wilson, Devotary of Spontaneity, Elbereth, Araris Valerian, Elandera, or StrikerEZ, or post in the GM Signups & Discussion Thread. Not only will we get you added to the list, but we'd also be more than willing to help out in any way we can. 

You can also ask questions and get some hints and feedback from everyone in our Art of Game Creation thread. With all the games that we've run so far, we have plenty of experienced GMs that can help you refine any game you're thinking about. If you would rather keep some detail secret, or are self-conscious about posting in thread (there's really no need to be; while we do slaughter each other, we are very polite about it), then I'm sure one of our fantastic committee members (Amanuensis, STINK, Sart, Fifth Scholar, Straw, Archer, and Kasimir) would be more than willing to help you out in private.

Thanks again to everyone that played, and we look forward to killing seeing you in future games!