Mid-Range Game 66: Knights of Wind and Truth

[STINK]

Feels like Kas is running a seminar this cycle good stuff tbh

[Kasimir]

Just now, STINK said:

Feels like Kas is running a seminar this cycle good stuff tbh

Do you feel the Socratic method is an effective tool, STINK?  

[Mat]

7 hours ago, STINK said:

Matrim's Dice

Yeah knew there was something fishy about that guy shouldn't have read me as evil for being interested in the game kinda unlucky I guess

The confidence in this post is off-putting to me. Like, you obviously didn't red check me :P. Sorry for noting a behavioral change, I guess? xD

4 hours ago, Kasimir said:

My restraining factor on JNV is the degree to which JNV isn't gunning ideals. I think it's fair to say the <STINK, TJ, Wit, JNV> pool may not be entirely clean but I would be very surprised if it was extremely populated with Elims. None of them are gunning ideals. JNV is theoretically but if you pay attention to the thread, they missed last cycle.

Didn't JNV post an all-RP post at EoD yesterday :P. Looks like ideal gunning to me. I find it hard to believe e!Stink or e!Wit RPs 600 words a cycle, as I think not RPing is an NAI thing for them, and you know as well as I do that's not really TJ's thing either, plus he's been afk

You can v read them for other reasons of course but this is your friendly reminder not to let your bro read conflate something that isn't really true. If the game were as easy as kill the RPers, we wouldn't be worried about anything.

[Kasimir]

12 minutes ago, Matrim&#x27;s Dice said:

You can v read them for other reasons of course but this is your friendly reminder not to let your bro read conflate something that isn't really true. If the game were as easy as kill the RPers, we wouldn't be worried about anything.

Is there a reason you aren't remotely considering that? The case here isn't even 'they're all Village.' It's that you can't make a solid Elim team from all of them because it's absolutely only barely possible that the Elims are in all of them and didn't care to farm Ideals. That's just asking to lie down and have their throats cut.

I joke about bro reads but this isn't about bro reads. This is about strategic priorities.

14 minutes ago, Matrim&#x27;s Dice said:

Didn't JNV post an all-RP post at EoD yesterday :P. Looks like ideal gunning to me.

They made one all-RP post yesterday. That's not gunning, that's 'you tried'

14 minutes ago, Matrim&#x27;s Dice said:

I find it hard to believe e!Stink or e!Wit RPs 600 words a cycle, as I think not RPing is an NAI thing for them, and you know as well as I do that's not really TJ's thing either, plus he's been afk

STINK's RPed before, and 200 words is easy enough, across 48 hours. I note that in QF66, TJ showed up just often enough to try. He didn't even bother here. That's not really consistent with being on a faction that will be outnumbered by Second/Third Ideal Villagers if they don't actually exercise their advantage and shape up.

[Mat]

1 minute ago, Kasimir said:

Is there a reason you aren't remotely considering that? The case here isn't even 'they're all Village.' It's that you can't make a solid Elim team from all of them because it's absolutely only barely possible that the Elims are in all of them and didn't care to farm Ideals. That's just asking to lie down and have their throats cut.

I guess that makes sense? I'm hesitant to consider it because of players like you, Archer, etc who I think are village but are still RPing. You'd RP anyway but Archer is clearly doing it for the ideals and I don't suspect him for that. I think there are players who will just not RP regardless of anything else, and I think those that will RP will do it in either alignment. Our difference here is that you think being elim gives more of an incentive to RP than I do.

[Archer]

Mat’s vibes are off.

1/ They’re going out of their way to keep everyone on the suspect list.

They trust Kas and Aeoryi, but they don’t vocalize it much. I helped save them C1, and I think they’ve avoided criticizing me to maintain the pocket, but they haven’t been very forthcoming in our PM. I feel like v!Mat would trust me more for the assist – but e!Mat needs me dead before I become a problem. Anyway, here’s some examples of Mat making sure everyone is in exe consideration:

Experience: we can’t ignore them, they must be suspected!

C1P2 - he had nothing to say but wanted to post because he felt obligated to post. It didn't feel natural to me. The SU is regrettable but I don't exactly want to ignore him the entire game . I wish he'd just not signed up but what's done is done

Stink: Gotta shade him for being active

C1P5 -I kind of feel bad reading Stink as evil for posting more game related thoughts than he did all last game but that's where my brain is going. 

C1P7 - This is where I get in the state I was last game where I feel like you have to be village for engagement reasons but also you keep doing things I do not understand :|.

C2P3 - I kind of read Stink as evil for engaging with the game, which feelsbad, but after the LG I feel like that's mildly justified

Araris: no giving away cheap village cred, Kas

C1P1 - Kas, I know they’re your bros, but you can’t v read someone who hasn’t posted (re Araris)

C1P5 - I think I lean village on Araris for the same reason (I liked his analysis post) but that's totally an effort read that is probably unwarranted and I should really go read his post again

JNV: weird votes bro

C1P2 - Can't decide if I like JNV's vote or not because half of my brain is saying JNV is jumping on something too easy >>

C1P5 - Rereading I haven't loved JNV's votes (more on that below) [re: Archer vote]

C1P9 - That was where I was going to vote you [aman] but now I don’t know what is happening [votes JNV instead]

Raven: you’re new, you can have some trust… until you’re in contention, which is when I suddenly suspect you

C1P3 - Ravenclaw's most recent post seems overly dictionary, if you know what I mean. 

C1P4 - Village points to both Raven and Wit for openness and honesty respectively

C1P5 - How did you feel about their responses to you? I found them to be more put-together than I’d have expected from a new player elim under interrogation, but that isn’t going to be true for every new player. [arguing against voting them]  I definitely lean village.

C2P1 - I missed that Raven voted Aman. That’s… weird.

C2P3 – [votes Raven] You’re pinging me because you want an explanation for my vote, I guess? Kas’ megapost proves how your slot is kinda connected to everything, and reading back your answers from yesterday I’m not as content with them as I was. I also don’t like how you popped in to comment on the anon messages— it shows you’re following the thread close enough to see the comment, but neglecting to post about anything actually relevant.

C2P3 - Raven putting the lead train and their countertrain as mild elim off of solely the first page of cycle one because of a lack of content is… objectively a bad look.

Isn't suspecting everyone that whole point of this game? Sure. But consider the Stink example. Do those digs feel natural to you? Or are they Mat keeping the suspect pool as wide as possible?

2/ Except! They’re weirdly protective of Wit.

Mat goes out of their way to advocate for Wit. Both cycles, they have loudly defended them, then weirdly floated the idea of voting for them at the end of the cycle. I suspect they’re trying to maneuver them into 2nd place. C1 they mentioned it but didn’t act, likely because the votes were too chaotic to track. C2 they again float it within the framing of them voting them to exe them, without saying as much. In the context of their previous support for Wit, it looks like a poorly disguised attempt to boost them into 2nd without looking like he’s trying to boost them.

C1P7 – [do we want Wit to get 2nd?] I wouldn’t mind it I suppose. I’d prefer getting Archer up (or me :P) but amidst all this EoD madness I’m starting to understand why people weren’t too keen on the idea of planning for this >>

C1P9 - Wait are we giving Aman the ideal right now I’m not comfy with that….[aman self votes] Stahhhp ;-; This nearly makes me want to vote Wit lol

C2P5 - Not to mess with this nice silence we got going on but this is eerily different from last turn, is that just me? Like it's lowkey making me want to vote Wit because that's the easiest explanation for the difference between the two turns. Or vote JNV for only RPing :P.

More protective comments to give you a sense of how many there are (and how starkly different they are to his suspicion of everyone else):

Spoiler

C1P4 - Village points to both Raven and Wit for openness and honesty respectively

C1P7 - This is objectively true [that Wit seems opportunistic]. But he was so pure early on I'm hesitant. Your train feels wrong though, it picked up too fast. But every time I think that I remember the time I panic-unvoted e!xino for the same reason. Circles within circles.

C1P7 – [do we want Wit to get 2nd?] I wouldn’t mind it I suppose. I’d prefer getting Archer up (or me :P) but amidst all this EoD madness I’m starting to understand why people weren’t too keen on the idea of planning for this >>

C1P9 - But I do read Wit more village than you and I don’t want to die so

C1P9 - Wait are we giving Aman the ideal right now I’m not comfy with that….[aman self votes] Stahhhp ;-; This nearly makes me want to vote Wit lol

C2P1 - I don’t actually mind Wit getting the ideal.

C2P2 – [Special mention to Wit's talk about clearing himself on C1 - possible new player eccentricities but in general I don't like that language and consider it a linguistic slip that's more likely from an Elim perspective. (cf. LG96, TJ.)] Mmm I forgot about that. I can almost understand that, because for me being read village as a villager is of near-equal importance (if not entirely equal) to being read village as an elim. I'm not sure if Wit would have that deep of an understanding of the game yet, though

C2P3 - …But now I don’t know how I feel about Wit feeling the need to post a sign-off with no prior content >> I gueeeeeess I’d lean village on that?

C2P3 - I'd cut out Wit [off the suspect list of Devo-TJ-Wit].

3/ Araris makes sense as a Mat NK.

Mat village read them aka couldn’t find a good reason not to. Araris threatened to vote them over how last game went. 

4/ Mat badly wants that second place Ideal bump.

Them gunning for the Ideals through RP and voting isn’t unusual. But they make sure to volunteer for second and also not try too hard to make the second place thing work out, despite being very in favor of setting that up in theory. Trusted!them is a likely candidate for it, so it's self serving. I expected a more passionate effort from them to make it happen, but e!them needs to avoid actually trusted villagers getting the boost. And e!they didn't get any traction for their preferred options so they just let it slide onto middling options. 

C1P1 - My first instinct is to use the second place vote intentionally to promote people we trust, rather than let it play out normally. It’s a tool we’ve been given, and I’d prefer publicly taking advantage of it so that the elims can’t.

C1P2 - We could call that out, and I'm imagining it to be a bit more formal, but mostly what I'm trying to avoid is the number two suspect getting an Ideal. Maybe I care more about this having just come off games where I primarily voted people not on the leading train.

C1P3 - I’d love to hear a better explanation of why letting the second vote lie is the better option

C1P7 –but amidst all this EoD madness I’m starting to understand why people weren’t too keen on the idea of planning for this >>

C2P2 - This is where I would say "I told you so" but I completely forgot about it as well so if I say that I have to say it to myself as well xD

C2P3 – [mat uses gif to volunteer to be 2nd place]

C2P5 - Not to mess with this nice silence we got going on but this is eerily different from last turn, is that just me? Like it's lowkey making me want to vote Wit because that's the easiest explanation for the difference between the two turns. Or vote JNV for only RPing :P.

5/ I just want to stick his reaction to serious C1P6 pressure here. I’m too deep to properly evaluate it.

Quote

 

If anyone wants to tell me what I’m supposed to do, that’d be nice. Because it once again seems I’m the subject of a mid-cycle wagon based on gut, and no matter how I respond someone will find a ‘tell’ that supports their vote. So I don’t think I’ll bother responding to anything, as most of it isn’t anything real.

Beyond that, I’ve just played how I always do, making reads, random pop ins, all that? I agree with Archer that Aman’s turnaround is weird. He writes a mega Archer case, and votes me for ??? 

I really don’t want to vote on Archer for self pres. That’d just be stupid. I just wish I’d stop getting put in this position when as far as I know it’s never been a reliable way to solve me. Maybe I’m wrong there, but at least can someone tell me that? /shrug 

Like if this is a me reaction test or something I deserve to know because it’s annoying to get wagoned D1 every single game :P.

 

6/ Assuming e!Mat-e!Wit, I’m left with 3rd teammate options of Devo or TJ. He doesn’t criticize either as much.

If it’s Devo, I’m wondering if they decided as a team to distance from her when she started being suspected. That pushed Mat towards Wit, because he can’t practically lose another teammate. Conflicting quotes I pulled:  

C2P3 - Plus the Devo train was feeling kind of stale and I wanted to spice things up a bit

C2P3 - I'd cut out Wit [off the suspect list of Devo-TJ-Wit]. … But I also support the Ash pressuring as so far the applied pressure on Devo, Raven, etc hasn't done much. [shortly after says they thought Devo was in the lead]

Devo Mat

[Kasimir]

My main struggle with E!Mat, tbh, is I struggle to find an E!partner for him apart from Wit, who I lean V on, and the rest of 3pool, which...I then have to explain wtf Archer just dropped as though it's the next hottest album, much lest Devo's 'Mat delenda est, Archer delenda est' positions.

I think anticipating and playing for a three Elim team is smart, so this is a real problem.

12 minutes ago, Archer said:

3/ Araris makes sense as a Mat NK.

I don't disagree with this. Ash's NKA did highlight <Devo, Mat, Wit.> This has awkward implications if I'm theorising you as Mat's E!partner.

15 minutes ago, Archer said:

5/ I just want to stick his reaction to serious C1P6 pressure here. I’m too deep to properly evaluate it.

Quote

If you want to be cold, the correct reaction is that this is a reasonable response from Mat and is also NAI. If you want to be pragmatic, a significant chunk of my backing off and writing off my Mat suspicions came down to that moment, and I know the same was true for Aman. My previous Mat suspicions weren't about tells: just one very, highly specific shift of behaviour/sticking point I never got rid of.

But this takes me back to the 'where tf E-partner' problem, which is a major problem for me when theorising E!Mat.

I think Devo's observation of the E!TJ problem is reasonable.

[Mat]

This won’t be thorough as I’m on mobile but here are some highlights

@Archer

— I think you’re overstating the outreach of my reads. I’ve kept a fairly stable top three village core all game, and the only thing I haven’t been open about in our PM is my role, which I think is fair given the large quantity of e reads of you. (Like, I could be wrong and I’m being careful.) Other than that I don’t think I’ve pushed anything dramatic. I don’t want to lose to low active elims and I don’t know how much to sheep Kas. At least I’m not ignoring the slots.

— Your second quote of me referring to Stink is actually me referring to Aeoryi

— I don’t know why you think it’s reasonable to assume I’m evil for looking at everyone— except only one of my two teammates, who I hardcore defend. The other I… leave out to dry? Those arguments don’t work together.

— I actually would have felt bad killing Araris after how badly I misexed him during the LG. I mentioned this earlier and unfortunately there’s no way for me to prove this, but I would not have shot Araris C1 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

— Wanting the boost should be NAI. Regardless, you said that elims wouldn’t want to let the villagers get it. How does that work with me letting the middling people get it, as you call them? Really I was letting you get it. This point feels confbiasy as you’ve set it up in a way that makes me look bad whether I pushed for my promotion or not. Wouldn’t me self voting to gun for the promotion look weirder?

— For what it’s worth, I think my C1 reaction to pressure should be read as NAI, as Kas said.

 

[ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ]

4 hours ago, Kasimir said:

NKA

What is this?

[Archer]

3 hours ago, Matrim&#x27;s Dice said:

— I think you’re overstating the outreach of my reads. I’ve kept a fairly stable top three village core all game, and the only thing I haven’t been open about in our PM is my role, which I think is fair given the large quantity of e reads of you. (Like, I could be wrong and I’m being careful.) Other than that I don’t think I’ve pushed anything dramatic. I don’t want to lose to low active elims and I don’t know how much to sheep Kas. At least I’m not ignoring the slots.

This is exactly my point. You're hitting everyone for little things, trying to death by a thousand cuts their reputation, but you're keeping it spread out. You're positioned to support pretty much any exe

Quote

— I don’t know why you think it’s reasonable to assume I’m evil for looking at everyone— except only one of my two teammates, who I hardcore defend. The other I… leave out to dry? Those arguments don’t work together.

My theory is either TJ was inactive at a time when Wit was under heavy pressure so you made the decision that you needed to put double the effort into not losing on C1 (and have since sort of been neutral about TJ), or Devo was under heavy pressure C1 so you cut them loose and started distancing, while hard committing to protecting your remaining teammate because if they die, you're done for anyway. It makes sense in the context of the pressure that's been applied. 

I can't think of why else you'd be so obsessed with defending Wit. 

Quote

— I actually would have felt bad killing Araris after how badly I misexed him during the LG. I mentioned this earlier and unfortunately there’s no way for me to prove this, but I would not have shot Araris C1 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Could be true, but it's a team decision with unusual parameters. I wouldn't doubt the elim doc contains e!Mat consternation 

Quote

— Wanting the boost should be NAI. Regardless, you said that elims wouldn’t want to let the villagers get it. How does that work with me letting the middling people get it, as you call them? Really I was letting you get it. This point feels confbiasy as you’ve set it up in a way that makes me look bad whether I pushed for my promotion or not. Wouldn’t me self voting to gun for the promotion look weirder?

The volunteering GIF was unusual for you. I think you've been trying to add some humor to your game to cover your maneuvering. Your play has been characterized by trying to do stuff, but not pushing very hard if you don't get support. I think you're trying to set up plays, but settling because you're afraid to take big swings that fail

Quote

— For what it’s worth, I think my C1 reaction to pressure should be read as NAI, as Kas said.

oh well if Kas says so, it must be true! :P. 

3 minutes ago, ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ said:

What is this?

Night Kill Analysis? 

How do you feel about Mat obsessively defending you? 

[Mat]

20 minutes ago, Archer said:

This is exactly my point. You're hitting everyone for little things, trying to death by a thousand cuts their reputation, but you're keeping it spread out. You're positioned to support pretty much any exe

I’m not sure what you want me to do. I have four village reads I feel pretty good about, so naturally everyone else becomes my PoE. You’re making my actions seem much worse than they actually are. I’m applying pressure to people to try to solve them, not throwing elim reads at a dartboard to see what sticks. How would you have me play the game if not in that way?

22 minutes ago, Archer said:

I can't think of why else you'd be so obsessed with defending Wit. 

Because I think he’s a villager. Again, I’m not sure what you want me to do. I’d defend Kas or Aeoryi or you as well.

I also think you’re using the wrong word there— I’m not obsessed, just consistent. There’s a difference. My read hasn’t changed since C1 but that doesn’t qualify as an obsession. It’s not like every other post I mention how village Wit is.

25 minutes ago, Archer said:

oh well if Kas says so, it must be true! :P. 

…Why is that the implication there. That’s such a passive aggressive line, you’re so tunneling :P.

It’s true because I said it and I know my own meta at least that well

[Kasimir]

That Wit's constant involvement in the game is at the level of terminology raises FNG questions all over again. 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Kasimir
Typo

[Mat]

I actually do agree with that^

I also think I’ve mentioned something earlier along those lines

Why do I feel like Archer gaslit me into thinking I had Wit as lock v :|.

[Kasimir]

Thoughts about exeing Wit then 3pool guys?

[Aeoryi]

Just now, Kasimir said:

Thoughts about exeing Wit then 3pool guys?

Yeah. It's not the worst idea.

But also

Why have I problems still

Mat

[Kasimir]

Archer

I don't like the feel of this cycle. It's too closed and discussion is dead and that train is too fast.

[Mat]

Aeoryi stop sheeping everything I thought we had found each other >>

[Aeoryi]

43 minutes ago, Matrim&#x27;s Dice said:

Aeoryi stop sheeping everything I thought we had found each other >>

Nah I have to reread people's wallposts and I got COVID-19 vaccine and I got flu shot sorry.

46 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Archer

I don't like the feel of this cycle. It's too closed and discussion is dead and that train is too fast.

Let's ask questions.

@|TJ|, what's your opinion on the mat train? Or if you can't answer that, what's your opinion on archer?

@Archer, what's a potential elim team composition you could see?

@Kasimir, updated reads list?

@STINK, what's going on? Why'd you vote on mat?

@JNV, what's you opinion on archer

@Devotary of Spontaneity, opinion on mat?

@Matrim's Dice, what's your obsession with v!wit? Why do you believe v!wit?

@witisthebest, what's one suspicion you have?

Sorry for bad questions sry

[Mat]

40 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

@Matrim's Dice, what's your obsession with v!wit? Why do you believe v!wit?

It’s only as much of an obsession as my v read of you, and honestly is less.

I have explained this before. Boils down to mainly a few C1 posts where he was more honest than I expect an elim to be, especially a new one.

This read isn’t as strong as Archer described it as.

[Kasimir]

Verily, this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose, so let me simply add that it is my very good honor to meet you and you may call me V.

Mat was roleblocked by a second Skybreaker. The claimant has come forward in PMs. The claimant purports to be a second Skybreaker, to have roleblocked Mat, and to have gained an extra Ideal. The only world in which a Skybreaker gains an extra Ideal is by roleblocking a kill. Since there was a successful DB kill, this more or less requires Mat to have been caught and stopped putting in the Elim kill.

-I believe this claim is prima facie plausible. I think Archer has cased Mat already, but there's a few other points that can be made against Mat, including Mat's startling and visceral lack of WiM as compared to the late QF and LG. If STINK's behavioural shift is grounds for suspicion, then so too is Mat's behavioural shift. If Mat's post on tells is NAI, then it must be disregarded in favour of the raw evidence. Which means we cannot simply dismiss behavioural shifts, and question if the best explanation of them is simply E!Mat. SB#2 is in particular a pretty insane claim for a gambit - an Elim looking to frame Mat would go for EC, as we haven't had a single EC flip yet.

-To be clear, there is definitely a world in which this is some form of gambit. We're currently 6/3 - if the Elim kill succeeds and we ML, we go on 4/3 next cycle. In fact, we lose if the Elim kill succeeds and if the DB misshoots this cycle. I'll come back to why in a short while. I just want to explain first that this situation does make a gambit more functionally possible than, say, if this were early game. However, because it's 6/3, it's an edgecase. In a V!Wit world, this is more possible simply because Wit is functionally - and I'm genuinely sorry to be saying this this bluntly to a new player - about as present as a damp rag.

-However. Simply put, we cannot afford to pass this up. The play for a claim is always standard - exe the scan target, and then, if the scan target flips V, exe the scanner. I remind everyone that the Skybreaker's claim is straightforwardly damning because of the gained Ideal. Mat has separately claimed Edgedancer, backed up by another player who targeted Mat C1. In other words, there is no world in which both Mat and the Skybreaker are Village. Which means that lynching Mat, and then the Skybreaker if Mat is Village is the correct play. But we cannot pre-flip Mat. We have to flip Mat first, and then move on next cycle.

-Here's the thing. Mat is definitely at least ED2. This follows from the fact I shot him an anon message C1 (as I did to everyone), and someone else targeted Mat C1 (call this the Back Up.) There is absolutely no world in which Mat - V or E - doesn't use Abrasion C1, and Progression C2, having received Progression. In the world the Skybreaker is truthful, which to be clear, is IMO the most plausible world, Mat and his team already knew, going into this cycle, that Mat was RBed, because Progression would have failed alongside the Elim kill. This leads me on to my next point.

-Devo and Archer have both been aggressively lobbying me for Mat's Evil, and each other's guilt. Devo has been pushing for an Archer shot this cycle. I am hesitant. The fact that Devo and Archer are both sold on each other as Mat's E!partner makes me believe that this is part of Mat's team response to the known scan. I think what is going on is wolf theatre because there is no way in hell Mat's team knows Mat got scanned and the distancing or caution doesn't begin. In fact, I weakly think an Archer shot this cycle is a mistake, because in the world where we shoot V!Mat and this really is a gambit, a successful Elim kill and misshot on Archer costs us the game - we end up being 2/3 to the Elims, which is a loss. [Note: Ok tbh I did the maths wrong. I now think we end up 3/3 in a misshot world, but it's functionally 2/3 because Wit is, to put it bluntly, deadweight, if Village at all. But I just want to leave my original thoughts here so people can interact with them and we can consider this. There's no way E!Archer wouldn't be worried about a shot on him, so realistically, this is always an issue anyway.]

-I will further add that if Mat flips Evil, I think both V!Archer and V!Devo need to understand that the Village just needs their flips. I'm cool with flipping the whole 3pool. I think staying alive never, ever beats dealing with the fact that there is no clarity on your slot, and your team just needs that clarity. The fact we are still quibbling on both Archer and Devo up to this point suggests this. And yes, this goes for me too.

-If you put a gun to my head and forced me to choose this cycle, I would say I think V!Devo is more likely, but really, it's a stupid call to force me to make given the Village's strategic situation and I'd rather we exe Mat and open up some breathing room and place for Village roles to work their magic and give us a better C4, in the best possible world, while bracing for the wirst. Open to thoughts all around.

-The Elims could be a 2 player team. But that's really optimistic and I don't buy it. As Village, we must always plan for the worst case scenario.

-The fact that the kill was missed makes me believe that in the world where the Skybreaker is truthful, the Elims lack a Bondsmith. There's just no reason not to get the Bondsmith to bless your DK with Tension, if not make the BS just go out and do the kill anyway.

Sorry Aeo, this isn't really your questions, but I think this is substantively more important to discuss.

I will add I am considering if we want a second vote at all in this world. Here's my issue. 6/3 - if we have even one Village player who isn't voting, see: V!Wit world, we are functionally 5/3 at maximum voting strength. If the Elims have vote manip and vote together, they can easily hammer. It's risky for them, certainly, because it requires them to make a successful triple kill, but say if E!Archer stays alive, we could have an awkward next cycle at 3/3 versus vote manip, and the V!Wit problem. Unsure. Let's be clear, again, I'm strategising for a variety of worst case scenarios here. But I'd like everyone to think about this.

Edited to add: To be clear, there is no way in hell Mat's team doesn't know Mat got scan/blocked. Apologies, double negatives are hard sometimes

Edited November 10, 2023 by Kasimir

[JNV]

You know I was going to pop in here and vote Archer again but I guess Ill vote Matrim 

[ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ]

3 hours ago, Archer said:

This is exactly my point. You're hitting everyone for little things, trying to death by a thousand cuts their reputation, but you're keeping it spread out. You're positioned to support pretty much any exe

My theory is either TJ was inactive at a time when Wit was under heavy pressure so you made the decision that you needed to put double the effort into not losing on C1 (and have since sort of been neutral about TJ), or Devo was under heavy pressure C1 so you cut them loose and started distancing, while hard committing to protecting your remaining teammate because if they die, you're done for anyway. It makes sense in the context of the pressure that's been applied. 

I can't think of why else you'd be so obsessed with defending Wit. 

Could be true, but it's a team decision with unusual parameters. I wouldn't doubt the elim doc contains e!Mat consternation 

The volunteering GIF was unusual for you. I think you've been trying to add some humor to your game to cover your maneuvering. Your play has been characterized by trying to do stuff, but not pushing very hard if you don't get support. I think you're trying to set up plays, but settling because you're afraid to take big swings that fail

oh well if Kas says so, it must be true! :P. 

Night Kill Analysis? 

How do you feel about Mat obsessively defending you? 

Ok honestly I didn’t realize that I was obsessively defending me, but I appreciate it. What else would you expect me to say? 

2 hours ago, Kasimir said:

That Wit's constant involvement in the game is at the level of terminology raises FNG questions all over again. 

What is FNG?

2 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Thoughts about exeing Wit then 3pool guys?

No.

1 hour ago, Aeoryi said:

Nah I have to reread people's wallposts and I got COVID-19 vaccine and I got flu shot sorry.

Let's ask questions.

@|TJ|, what's your opinion on the mat train? Or if you can't answer that, what's your opinion on archer?

@Archer, what's a potential elim team composition you could see?

@Kasimir, updated reads list?

@STINK, what's going on? Why'd you vote on mat?

@JNV, what's you opinion on archer

@Devotary of Spontaneity, opinion on mat?

@Matrim's Dice, what's your obsession with v!wit? Why do you believe v!wit?

@witisthebest, what's one suspicion you have?

Sorry for bad questions sry

…Have we considered Kas? If he was an elim, he needs props for the amount if huge cover up vil stiff br has done. I doubt it is him because of this, but it would be a very very good cover.

57 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

 However, because it's 6/3, it's an edgecase. In a V!Wit world, this is more possible simply because Wit is functionally - and I'm genuinely sorry to be saying this this bluntly to a new player - about as present as a damp rag.

I am sorry, I will try to be on more. I am very busy, and I don’t go on the shard during school.

[Mat]

Okay yeah there’s no way Wit is evil actually lol

Also, huh. Things make more sense now  Namely, why Kas 180d on me so fast.

Have some thoughts on why this is happening but I’ll wait till I get home so I can organize them clearly.

[Kasimir]

7 minutes ago, ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ said:

What is FNG?

Freakin' New Guy. It's the play where you lean into your newness and ask questions but don't do anything - you use it as a cover to avoid suspicion on the basis of being new and pure. You say you want to learn how to play mafia, but you simply show up, ask questions, and don't proactively contribute. You lurk in the thread a lot but don't say anything except to ask for terminology definitions. At this point, I'm questioning how much this is genuine, and how much this is meant to put us off our guard.

7 minutes ago, ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ said:

No.

Why not? Specifically, it's clear that Mat needs to be exed first in this landscape because there is a redcheck (again, I repeat, Skybreaker claimed a scan) on Mat that guarantees either Mat or the scanner is Evil. This is why we have to exe Mat, and then if Mat flips V, the Skybreaker. But you're not giving any reason to avoid exeing you at this point.

11 minutes ago, ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ said:

I am sorry, I will try to be on more. I am very busy, and I don’t go on the shard during school.

Bro, I'm fine with that. I'm not asking you be on more times. I'm asking you be more present - don't lurk. Give thoughts. Vote. If you are a Villager, we need you voting. Use your role abilities. That sort of thing.

Quality over quantity.

[ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ]

15 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Why not? Specifically, it's clear that Mat needs to be exed first in this landscape because there is a redcheck (again, I repeat, Skybreaker claimed a scan) on Mat that guarantees either Mat or the scanner is Evil. This is why we have to exe Mat, and then if Mat flips V, the Skybreaker. But you're not giving any reason to avoid exeing you at this point.

Weren’t you talking about exing me?

16 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Freakin' New Guy. It's the play where you lean into your newness and ask questions but don't do anything - you use it as a cover to avoid suspicion on the basis of being new and pure. You say you want to learn how to play mafia, but you simply show up, ask questions, and don't proactively contribute. You lurk in the thread a lot but don't say anything except to ask for terminology definitions. At this point, I'm questioning how much this is genuine, and how much this is meant to put us off our guard.

Ok.

I think that It could be Mat. It is always suspicious to defend other elims. If he were an elim, he might defend me, a vil, in order to throw us off, and to gain a potential loyalty defender for himself.
I don’t think it is Kas. He has done simply so much, that…yeah.

I think that Atcher could be elim, but I don’t have much evidence 

raven is a gut Suspect.

the rest I think are vil.