I don't think Brandon is good at writing grief.

[danex]

Just finished the book, and its gotta be one of my favorite Cosmere stories of all time. 

But one aspect of it just felt.....so off. 

After Aux sacrifices himself to give Nomad his final burst of flight, Nomad's reaction is just.....wrong. like its literally just the wrong reaction. He's obviously sad, but one moment in particular just ruins it. He's back in unity, just a few pages later, and we get this:

Quote

What do you think, Aux?” Zellion said, walking calmly toward the Cinder King. “Do you spot snipers?” No response. Damnation. It hurt anew when he remembered.

like what. 

I don't think I need to explain how this is weird. it COMPLETELY took me out of the book when i first read it.

The nahel bond is one of the most intimate relationships I can even imagine. Your spren is literally your most constant companion, and with Sigzil specifically, he's been bonded to Aux for maybe hundreds of years. 

Your best friend, your most intimate companion, who you've been with for entire lifetimes just died...and you forget?????

And it's not just that, that last line is terrible too. "it hurt anew when he remembered" That just sounds weird right? like you could make the argument that Nomad was talking out of habit, he didn't literally forget, but even still, we should be getting more pain from him. those 3 words "it hurt anew", are all we get, and the story just continues. just "it hurt". that's all. no further description.

He should be a broken man at this point. He should be fighting through tears. His ONLY companion through all these years of running, His ONLY friend, just DIED SACRIFICING HIMSELF FOR YOU, and we barely get anything.

The weirdest part is, Brandon did an amazing job at writing the fear of grief. The scene where Nomad is swinging on Aux as a chain under the ship as they climb the mountain, that was beautiful. I genuinely felt as terrified as Nomad did that Aux was about to sacrifice himself. The tension there is insane, and the way Nomad mentally screams at Aux to not do it, its just awesome. (Page 172 if you want to reread it. It's the ENTIRE PAGE too. We get actual CONTENT regarding this conflict, rather than the TWO WORDS we get after it actually happens.) That's the sort of reaction we should be getting AFTER Aux sacrifices himself too. 

the actual specific moment where Aux sacrifices himself was...alright I guess. it was very high in emotion, but I still think it wasn't as good as page 172. It's the aftermath of this moment that I specifically have an issue with though. nomad should not be as high-functioning as he is.

I think part of the reason I feel this way is actually because of page 172. it set up Aux's death SO WELL, showing us how TERRIFIED Sig was of losing him. and then he does. and we get barely anything. The payoff is just not there. 

also. it's weird because I know Brandon has written grief well before! Kaladin's entire character for example. RoW is tragic. but I feel like he just..... absolutely missed the mark with this one.

Edited October 4, 2023 by dannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnex

[Channelknight Fadran]

I would just like to point out that the link to this on mobile reads “I don’t think Brandon is good a writing…” and I was quite curious to see what was coming up next

[danex]

28 minutes ago, Channelknight Fadran said:

I would just like to point out that the link to this on mobile reads “I don’t think Brandon is good a writing…” and I was quite curious to see what was coming up next

i am the master of clickbait

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, dannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnex said:

I don't think I need to explain how this is weird. 

You do not. Excellent summary and analysis. I will point out that it's possible that Brandon was worried about slowing the climax - we can't know why he chose what he chose unless he tells us - but this was the one rotten fruit in a bushel of awesome.

[+Oltux72]

7 hours ago, dannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnex said:

He should be a broken man at this point. He should be fighting through tears. His ONLY companion through all these years of running, His ONLY friend, just DIED SACRIFICING HIMSELF FOR YOU, and we barely get anything.

I get what you are saying, but may I offer the counterpoint?

Basically: How human is Sigzil at that time? He is possibly much, much older than humans are adapted for and has had an alien piece of Investiture in his soul for decades and is suffering from the magical equivalent of withdrawl symptoms. Has he really understood that Auxillary is dead, deep down?

[Ender's Son]

In Brandon's defense, I will say I really connected with that moment where Sig talks to Aux out of habit and then is flooded with pain again because Aux is gone. I've lived that moment in real life. I see that moment replayed in lots of books and movies because so many people who have gone through that kind of grief can identify with doing the same thing.

[+Oltux72]

16 minutes ago, Ender's Son said:

In Brandon's defense, I will say I really connected with that moment where Sig talks to Aux out of habit and then is flooded with pain again because Aux is gone. I've lived that moment in real life. I see that moment replayed in lots of books and movies because so many people who have gone through that kind of grief can identify with doing the same thing.

That time when you check for your cell phone because somebody special might need you and then you remember.

[danex]

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I get what you are saying, but may I offer the counterpoint?

Basically: How human is Sigzil at that time? He is possibly much, much older than humans are adapted for and has had an alien piece of Investiture in his soul for decades and is suffering from the magical equivalent of withdrawl symptoms. Has he really understood that Auxillary is dead, deep down?

countercounterpoint: it still just comes down to Buildup vs Payoff. 172 builds up his fear of loss SO MUCH and then we get very little resolution. It just 100% feels like there wasnt quite enough proofreading, which tracks, given the way these books were written.

if brandon was trying to intentionally signal “hey isn’t it weird how little grief Sig is showing?”, he wouldn’t have built up that emotional climax so much, and he would have signaled that weirdness harder.

and why would he even do that, the only point of having a character be in denial like that is to build up an even greater emotional climax where they have to come to terms with reality. we definitely don’t get anything like that. 

9 minutes ago, Ender's Son said:

In Brandon's defense, I will say I really connected with that moment where Sig talks to Aux out of habit and then is flooded with pain again because Aux is gone. I've lived that moment in real life. I see that moment replayed in lots of books and movies because so many people who have gone through that kind of grief can identify with doing the same thing.

it’s not exactly the action that i have issue with, it’s the way it’s handled. we just get those 3 words “it hurt anew”. like i actually can’t think of a WORSE way to show that a character is expressing grief. might as well have written “Nomad proceeded to feel grief. Anyway…”

it’s also weird given the pacing, like aux sacrificed himself *minutes* ago. a habitual slip like that makes sense if it’s farther in the future, but wouldn’t he just…still be thinking about it? Like, he should be in shock, he should be a wreck. at the very least address the lack of emotion. like “nomad couldn’t afford to think about that right now” or whatever. 

[+Oltux72]

4 minutes ago, dannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnex said:

it’s not exactly the action that i have issue with, it’s the way it’s handled. we just get those 3 words “it hurt anew”. like i actually can’t think of a WORSE way to show that a character is expressing grief. might as well have written “Nomad proceeded to feel grief. Anyway…”

it’s also weird given the pacing, like aux sacrificed himself *minutes* ago. a habitual slip like that makes sense if it’s farther in the future, but wouldn’t he just…still be thinking about it? Like, he should be in shock, he should be a wreck. at the very least address the lack of emotion. like “nomad couldn’t afford to think about that right now” or whatever. 

Not necessarily. You can come to a point where you just function. You call the necessary people. The grandchildren will watch TV. You are basically in denial and self reflection is not what you are prone to in that state.

People in extreme situations act in a variety of ways, few of which are as one would usually imagine.

 

[danex]

17 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Not necessarily. You can come to a point where you just function. You call the necessary people. The grandchildren will watch TV.

yeah eventually. he watched his best and only friend die MINUTES AGO. 

17 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

You are basically in denial and self reflection is not what you are prone to in that state.

Again, you’d only write a character in denial to postpone that emotional revelation. one we never get. and if he was in denial, wouldn’t Aux’s lack of response have been a HUGE punch in the face?? being forced to confront reality in a brutal way??? we just get 2 words of reaction!

17 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

People in extreme situations act in a variety of ways, few of which are as one would usually imagine.

again, if that’s the case, Brandon needs to *say* that. you can’t build up that emotional climax, not deliver on it, and offer no explanation. if he was putting his emotions aside or whatever, it needs to at least be implied. 

no matter how you look at it, this was just a mistake in the writing. it’s one of three things:

1. grief written extremely poorly

2. a character in denial with NO resolution or even indication. 

3. a character expertly and intentionally handling their emotions without any indication that they’re doing so. 

all just writing mistakes, none of this can be explained in-world, this isn’t what brandon wanted readers to take away from that moment. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by dannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnex

[therunner]

Well immediately after Aux's sacrifice Sigzil was fighting to save a bunch of people. That would be a bit of a distraction. And he is basically busy up until he Skips away. Of course he is not actively thinking about it, he has other problems to think about.

And honestly, not fully processing and internalizing what just happened is not that uncommon. And precisely because he was with Aux for possibly centuries, it will take him time to adapt that Aux is gone, you don't change those habits in a minute. And he probably already grieved Aux once before, when he nearly fully killed him with Danwshard, so that is also a factor.

To me, his reaction and his subdued grief were very on point, as I process things that way too. Emotions are put to the side until problems in front of me are dealt with, then I can start grieving.

Edited October 4, 2023 by therunner

[Ender's Son]

2 hours ago, therunner said:

To me, his reaction and his subdued grief were very on point, as I process things that way too. Emotions are put to the side until problems in front of me are dealt with, then I can start grieving.

Exactly. Life in danger. Must perform now. Grief shoved aside until adrenaline flushes out of system. Then the moment the emergency has passed, that's when someone collapses and allows themselves to feel. That's real. People in combat or first responders will tell you how many times they've seen someone who witnessed something awful push that truth out of their head because they can't afford to acknowledge it yet. Sig would literally give that grief about three words of acknowledgment and then shove it right back out of his head. I think the way Brandon wrote it is literally the right proportion for the moment.

[therunner]

10 minutes ago, Ender's Son said:

Exactly. Life in danger. Must perform now. Grief shoved aside until adrenaline flushes out of system. Then the moment the emergency has passed, that's when someone collapses and allows themselves to feel. That's real. People in combat or first responders will tell you how many times they've seen someone who witnessed something awful push that truth out of their head because they can't afford to acknowledge it yet. Sig would literally give that grief about three words of acknowledgment and then shove it right back out of his head. I think the way Brandon wrote it is literally the right proportion for the moment.

Yeah I think so too.

Though I must say that having a bit longer epilogue where Sigzil does have more time to process and grieving truly starts would be an improvement, in my opinion.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

20 hours ago, dannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnex said:

you could make the argument that Nomad was talking out of habit, he didn't literally forget

I think this is exactly what happened. This is a very human reaction and the whole point of the book is that he doesn't have time for it to truly sink in. The book opens with rebeke in shock after her brother died too.

[AonEne]

On 10/3/2023 at 4:59 PM, dannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnex said:

The nahel bond is one of the most intimate relationships I can even imagine. Your spren is literally your most constant companion, and with Sigzil specifically, he's been bonded to Aux for maybe hundreds of years. 

Your best friend, your most intimate companion, who you've been with for entire lifetimes just died...and you forget?????

And it's not just that, that last line is terrible too. "it hurt anew when he remembered" That just sounds weird right? like you could make the argument that Nomad was talking out of habit, he didn't literally forget, but even still, we should be getting more pain from him. those 3 words "it hurt anew", are all we get, and the story just continues. just "it hurt". that's all. no further description.

Wow, I completely disagree! I loved this moment and thought it made sense and fit well. As you said, this is someone he's spent a long time with. He is extremely close to Aux, and at this point they're even more linked than a normal Nahel bond, with Aux being half-dead and only able to sense things through Nomad.

Nomad's used to living life with Aux there, so when he's in a life-or-death situation, he of course turns to his best friend and magical partner. That is his instinctive reaction. I can easily imagine myself doing the same thing; if one of my best friends died, someone who I share thoughts with and am often talking to, I can see myself excitedly clicking into a chat...only to suddenly remember that they're not there anymore. I can't talk to them about it. 

The human brain can only hold so many things in front at once. (And I do believe that psychologically, Nomad is still essentially human, if warped by the Dawnshard.) He was in the middle of an attack on the Cinder King. He was thinking about the upcoming fight, Elegy and Rebeke, his Shardplate and how it was gone again, the overarching plan...he's had a lot of different things to focus on throughout this book and not a lot of time to process more than a few. Aux died, what, an hour ago max? This isn't something he's internalized yet.

He has a plan to execute and another day to survive. Some thoughts and emotional processing aren't at the forefront yet. (Which I think fits pretty well with the overall theme of the book - he never stops running, moving, fighting. The pace is fast and he doesn't have the time to process, as much as he may want to, or he will die.) 

On top of that - people just deal with grief differently! Some people, when someone they love has died, completely fall apart. Some people dissociate and avoid like hell. Some people face it head on and deal with it easily in the moment, but later on it hits them much harder. And some people hurt, but their grief doesn't damage them, even if they felt deeply for the person who they lost.

I have lost people; thankfully, no dead best friends or immediate family, but I've lost people I cared about, and...while I missed them, I didn't have a hard time coping with it. People cope differently with different traumas! Grief is different for different people. I have felt bad about it in the past, feeling like I'm not grieving enough. There is no such thing as enough. You feel what you feel, and there isn't a wrong way to feel after someone has died (or after any traumatic event!). 

On 10/4/2023 at 0:47 AM, dannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnex said:

countercounterpoint: it still just comes down to Buildup vs Payoff. 172 builds up his fear of loss SO MUCH and then we get very little resolution. It just 100% feels like there wasnt quite enough proofreading, which tracks, given the way these books were written.

Not a beta but this book was proofread quite a lot from what I have heard XD just because you don't personally like or relate to the outcome doesn't mean it wasn't read over or was written badly. Totally valid to think it was anyway (I think Frugal Wizard had a major flaw), but others may read it differently! 

On 10/4/2023 at 1:15 AM, dannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnex said:

Again, you’d only write a character in denial to postpone that emotional revelation. one we never get. and if he was in denial, wouldn’t Aux’s lack of response have been a HUGE punch in the face?? being forced to confront reality in a brutal way??? we just get 2 words of reaction!

again, if that’s the case, Brandon needs to *say* that. you can’t build up that emotional climax, not deliver on it, and offer no explanation. if he was putting his emotions aside or whatever, it needs to at least be implied. 

no matter how you look at it, this was just a mistake in the writing.

There're more than two ways people can deal with grief. It's not just either a breakdown now or a breakdown later; sometimes there isn't that kind of breakdown ever, and that's valid and fine and realistic too. It might have been a punch in the face to you, or to me, but not to Sigzil. The breakdown might come after what we get to see, days later. Or it might never come. 

Wanting to see that breakdown is understandable! I would have loved to see it too, actually, if there was one. But I disagree that us not seeing it was bad writing. It's one method of writing grief, and it is NOT an unrealistic one. 

You could also consider the fear of Aux dying, that moment under the airships, to be the emotional climax, along with the moment of death itself. The rest isn't the focus. Which you're also allowed to not prefer as a style of storytelling, but it's a reading of the story that is valid. 

[Duxredux]

I'll note that Nomad's entire story is full of him trying to repress his pain at losing his loved ones and doing a pretty poor job of it.

At the beginning he continuously attempts to fight or use his Radiant abilities, despite the implication that he lost the Surges when Aux was nearly killed while his Torment grows stronger. We can see how much hurt, anger, and betrayal he feels at learning that Wit, his master basically used him and left for the wolves, and he still repeatedly refers to Wit as his master. Centuries after his time serving in Bridge Four and he tries so hard not to think about his friends - and then he immediately and reflexively thinks Wit is Kal. He performs the Chasm Kata ending with the Bridge Four salute still missing his friends.

I'll also note that at one point he uses all of his Investiture stores to protect a ship from the sun leaving him a normal, Tormented, bonded man, meaning he can't be using Breath to store centuries of memories. Alternately he just lost those memories as surely as Elegy's memories were fully burned away while saving Rebeke.

I'm no psychologist with experience dealing with grief, repression, or memory issues for multi-century aged Invested people, but I think a case could be made that maaaaybe Sig has a few screws loose in this department. Perhaps this is just a natural coping mechanism when he's literally been running for his life for however long the Night Brigade have been chasing him in their nice chairs on their FTL capable ships. Watching Nomad and figuring out that he was Sigzil felt like seeing Marsh alive again at the end of TFE. Glad my old friend is still alive, but horrified at how much our time apart had hurt and changed him until he was barely recognizable. Adding Aux to Sigzil's list of lost friends along with Kal and the rest of Bridge Four seems right and it looks like he'll keep hurting, running, and repressing because he's trying to stay alive, protect his loved ones by staying away from them, and keeping the Dawnshard away from a group that wipes out planets. That man needs a break, I hope he gets to sit down for longer than 3 hours soon and really process and recuperate, but I wouldn't count on it.

[JohnnyKaizen]

On 10/3/2023 at 6:59 PM, dannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnex said:

Just finished the book, and its gotta be one of my favorite Cosmere stories of all time. 

But one aspect of it just felt.....so off. 

After Aux sacrifices himself to give Nomad his final burst of flight, Nomad's reaction is just.....wrong. like its literally just the wrong reaction. He's obviously sad, but one moment in particular just ruins it. He's back in unity, just a few pages later, and we get this:

like what. 

I don't think I need to explain how this is weird. it COMPLETELY took me out of the book when i first read it.

The nahel bond is one of the most intimate relationships I can even imagine. Your spren is literally your most constant companion, and with Sigzil specifically, he's been bonded to Aux for maybe hundreds of years. 

Your best friend, your most intimate companion, who you've been with for entire lifetimes just died...and you forget?????

And it's not just that, that last line is terrible too. "it hurt anew when he remembered" That just sounds weird right? like you could make the argument that Nomad was talking out of habit, he didn't literally forget, but even still, we should be getting more pain from him. those 3 words "it hurt anew", are all we get, and the story just continues. just "it hurt". that's all. no further description.

He should be a broken man at this point. He should be fighting through tears. His ONLY companion through all these years of running, His ONLY friend, just DIED SACRIFICING HIMSELF FOR YOU, and we barely get anything.

The weirdest part is, Brandon did an amazing job at writing the fear of grief. The scene where Nomad is swinging on Aux as a chain under the ship as they climb the mountain, that was beautiful. I genuinely felt as terrified as Nomad did that Aux was about to sacrifice himself. The tension there is insane, and the way Nomad mentally screams at Aux to not do it, its just awesome. (Page 172 if you want to reread it. It's the ENTIRE PAGE too. We get actual CONTENT regarding this conflict, rather than the TWO WORDS we get after it actually happens.) That's the sort of reaction we should be getting AFTER Aux sacrifices himself too. 

the actual specific moment where Aux sacrifices himself was...alright I guess. it was very high in emotion, but I still think it wasn't as good as page 172. It's the aftermath of this moment that I specifically have an issue with though. nomad should not be as high-functioning as he is.

I think part of the reason I feel this way is actually because of page 172. it set up Aux's death SO WELL, showing us how TERRIFIED Sig was of losing him. and then he does. and we get barely anything. The payoff is just not there. 

also. it's weird because I know Brandon has written grief well before! Kaladin's entire character for example. RoW is tragic. but I feel like he just..... absolutely missed the mark with this one.

I cannot speak for anyone else but myself. I have found (quite literally) hundreds of times that Brandon's neurodivergence speaks directly to mine. I rationally understand how this line could throw you for a loop, but for me, it was an absolutely normal thing to happen. Sigzil/Nomad/Zellion was in so much grief that he disassociated from it, and forgot. My Uncle died three years ago..and I had to remind myself twice this week that he's dead. I forget all the time.

As a writer, it is exceptionally difficult to write things that everyone can relate to, and I think that is especially challenging for Brandon (and the fact that he succeeds at doing so, so much of the time speaks to his monumental talent) but I don't think it's at all fair to say that he is bad at writing grief because you personally didn't connect to the manner in which it's written (or even if a lot of people didn't ... as long as there is a group that does?) If it's just me that connected to it, then what I'm writing here would be applied to me instead. I feel that it's easy to jump to a conclusion that we ourselves don't have a personal connection to. Just my thoughts on this specific thing, for what it's worth.

[danex]

5 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

it was an absolutely normal thing to happen.

for like the 9th time, it’s not the forgetting itself that was poor writing, it’s the way he writes Nomad’s reaction to it. Remembering that Aux is dead should be an absolute sucker punch. we get two words. Just like “ah right, i forgot. anyway…”

if brandon intended for this to be a dissociation-type moment, he needed to write that better too! there’s just nothing. he just didn’t write it. no indication that he’s experiencing any sort of trauma or whatever. you could argue “well it’s hard to show that when it’s from the PoV of the character disassociating”, but that’s still not an excuse, if that’s the case, he needed to add a PoV where he could show this dissociation or something. 

like you know “show don’t tell”? the age old writing advice? well brandon didn’t do either. you can’t argue “writing by omission”, you just can’t imply all of this without writing a single word on the page.

like none of this is actually about grief, it’s about writing. and this writing, is bad. he pulled out a chekhovs gun, waved it around, and then accidentally dropped it and walked away. 

[JohnnyKaizen]

On 10/11/2023 at 4:55 PM, dannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnex said:

for like the 9th time, it’s not the forgetting itself that was poor writing, it’s the way he writes Nomad’s reaction to it. Remembering that Aux is dead should be an absolute sucker punch. we get two words. Just like “ah right, i forgot. anyway…”

if brandon intended for this to be a dissociation-type moment, he needed to write that better too! there’s just nothing. he just didn’t write it. no indication that he’s experiencing any sort of trauma or whatever. you could argue “well it’s hard to show that when it’s from the PoV of the character disassociating”, but that’s still not an excuse, if that’s the case, he needed to add a PoV where he could show this dissociation or something. 

like you know “show don’t tell”? the age old writing advice? well brandon didn’t do either. you can’t argue “writing by omission”, you just can’t imply all of this without writing a single word on the page.

like none of this is actually about grief, it’s about writing. and this writing, is bad. he pulled out a chekhovs gun, waved it around, and then accidentally dropped it and walked away. 

Again, for me..two words was all it took. It spoke to me on a visceral level. I don't feel that I need to go into all of the reasons why, simply that it did, and that made it feel like a very intentional choice. You clearly want Brandon to have written this part in a specific way, and he didn't, and you have negative feelings about that. I get that. That still doesn't mean he did a bad job on this specific thing. It means he made a choice you disagree with, and it's totally ok to disagree with that choice. I don't think it's ok to accuse him of being a bad writer, of slacking off, or whatever else.

Sanderson is probably the most intentional writer I know. He most definitely knows what he's written. Not to mention all of the people he has to alpha read, then beta read, then whoever he had be the editor for this book (I don't recall if that was his regular person or not) and then whoever that person had read the book. I find it difficult, in the extreme, to believe that all of those sets of eyes crossed over this book and nobody brought up, "Hey..this seem super brief for such a devastating loss" to Brandon, and that he didn't have a reason for writing it that way. I suppose there is that 1 in a billion chance, but I'm going to fall on the side of, he made that choice. I am sorry that this bothered you so much, and/or ruined that part of the story for you, because that really sucks. That made the writing bad for you, and I accept that. I don't except that that makes Sanderson a bad writer.

Edited October 16, 2023 by JohnnyKaizen

[AonEne]

On 10/11/2023 at 2:55 PM, dannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnex said:

for like the 9th time, it’s not the forgetting itself that was poor writing, it’s the way he writes Nomad’s reaction to it. Remembering that Aux is dead should be an absolute sucker punch. we get two words. Just like “ah right, i forgot. anyway…”

Yeah, I just have to disagree that this makes it bad writing. +1 to everything Johnny's said; it's totally fair if that wasn't enough for you, but other people find that reaction when he remembers to be enough. Everyone reacts to grief differently and everyone heals differently, and for some people, "it hurt anew" is what they genuinely feel upon remembering that a loved one is gone. 

[Duxredux]

On 10/12/2023 at 2:44 PM, JohnnyKaizen said:

Sanderson is probably the most intentional writer I know. He most definitely knows what he's written. Not to mention all of the people he has to alpha read, then beta read, then whoever he had be the editor for this book (I don't recall if that was his regular person or not) and then whoever that person had read the book. I find it difficult, in the extreme, to believe that all of those sets of eyes crossed over this book and nobody brought up, "Hey..this seem super brief for such a devastating loss" to Brandon, and that he didn't have a reason for writing it that way. I suppose there is that 1 in a billion chance, but I'm going to fall on the side of, he made that choice. I am sorry that this bothered you so much, and/or ruined that part of the story for you, because that really sucks. That made the writing bad for you, and I accept that. I don't except that that makes Sanderson a bad writer.

Agreed.

If @dannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnex you want to look over what you're criticizing then peruse Brandon's Writing Process, Brandon's Process of Drafting a Book, or The Hardest Part of Writing for Brandon. (if anyone feels that this is out of line for me calling this out, let me know), considering you know you made a clickbait title, the title of the thread feels like flamebait when you acknowledge at the end of your initial post that Brandon is generally good at writing grief, it's just this particular case that didn't land for you (flamebait defintion I'm using: a message or post intended to arouse controversy). This just might explain why so many people feel the need to defend Brandon's portrayal of grief and why it feels like you've had to make the same argument 9 times. To give a nod to many of your points, Brandon's statement on the hardest part of writing for him is often getting a character's internal conflicts right. If he did genuinely drop the ball, then you're right and you've got it from the man himself, this is hard for him. He knows. He tries really hard by involving a lot of people, a lot of revisions, and a tremendous amount of work on his end to compensate. If you want to talk about the principles of writing and have a frank discussion among other storytellers who are seeking to improve their craft on what worked and what didn't and how you might have tried to portray this moment, that definitely has merit. It might be hard to do that on this thread though, since it's now charged with how people process grief and others defending Brandon's writing process.

Moving past the writerly portion of the conversation, I stepped away from Realmatics and really thought about my perception of this event and I have a possible take. Sig has been mourning Aux's death since Aux's first death. Sig blamed himself for that, horrified that his friend got almost totally consumed until he was practically just a personality overlay. We learned to love Aux, but this Aux is a mere shadow of who he used to be and is a constant reminder to Sigzil of how he killed his friend, made worse by how frequently Aux reminds Sig that he's dead. I kind of imagine it like having a friend chatting with you while you're driving in a car, getting into a car accident, then finding that your buddy 90% died and that their monotone voice and fragments of their personality is now an overlay for the voice assistant in the car. It's reasonable to feel like they're dead and that it's all your fault, they're just still around to complain about it, require your services as a valet to go anywhere, and criticize your driving habits which makes the guilt even worse. In Aux's final death, it's Aux's choice to feed himself to Sigzil's Torment, removing any chance for further self-recrimination. Sig didn't lose his friend at the end, he lost the 10% acting as voice assistant, Aux the Highspren died a long time ago. The difference now is that Sig's grief isn't wrapped up with guilt and hate and blame for himself, Aux took that away. Perhaps there would be a reduction of pain, not an avalanche of more, and Sig isn't even aware of why that is the case. I don't know, it's just one possible take, but for me at least, Sig's pain was emphasized over and over at how little Aux resembled his former self, so losing the last 10%, heroic and sad though it was, felt more like a paralyzed and emotionally crippled friend finally laid to rest than a sucker punch to the gut. Terrible as it might sound, I think losing Aux in this way may end up being healthier for Sigzil in the long run than constantly carrying around guilt for killing his friend or being devastated by Aux's protracted passing, particularly if he turned a corner to try to salvage his trampled morality and empathy (as an aside, kind of like how Vasher seems a lot more content and has less anger issues now that he isn't carrying around the sword he used to kill his wife that was constantly encouraging him to kill evil people - now Szeth is the one having anger problems and is going around killing people he perceives to be evil. Oh boy!). Here's one possible in-world explanation, though to acknowledge what was said in terms of omission, I had to work a bit to construct this take and it isn't explicitly confirmed in the text. 

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, your experience is your experience and totally valid. I'm just offering another possible interpretation of the text that hopefully may improve someone's experience with reading TSM if the current reading feels incomplete or flawed. How Zellion perceives his grief and culpability may have major implications in shaping who he is by the time he shows up again, so this seems important to understand for his larger story if he's a ticking time bomb of repression or if he's been able to let go and move on in a small measure.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Duxredux
Decided to reword a few sections.

[Frustration]

@dannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnex I will back you on this. That line could have been much better, and when Sigzils is sitting on the Atol during the epilogue, we should have gotten a whole lot more feeling out of it.

So while I don't think Nomad's reaction up to after his fight with the Cinder King was out of place, we definitely needed more before the book ended.

 

I think it would have been much better to move the line where he speaks to Aux again to when he's on the new planet hailing the ship, and given a much better look at how Nomad is handling it.

[morcey2]

@dannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnex I have to respectfully disagree with your interpretation.  I lost my wife just under 4 years ago.  I lost a daughter a month before that.  You forget all. the. time. 

I really liked that particular part specifically because it felt so natural to me.  About 6 months after my wife died, I picked up the phone to call her from the store to see if she wanted me to grab something that she particularly liked but they hadn't had in stock for a year or so.  After my daughter's death but before my wife's, I tried to call my daughter from the hospital to update her on my wife's condition and results of tests.  "It hurt anew when {I} remembered" but I had to keep going because I didn't have any choice.  I had to talk to doctors, medical supply places, the insurance company, etc. without crawling back into my own head the way I wanted to.  That's probably where Nomad was at the time.  It hurt, but he had to keep doing what he knew would keep him alive.  Being broken and doing what needs to be done aren't mutually exclusive. 

Even being remarried, I'll still see something and often my instinct is to call my late wife and tell her about something I heard or saw.  Or call my daughter when I've made chili or fried up some fish. 

When I read that line it really did feel like a totally natural reaction to me.  But with that said, I know that there are others who have been through what I've been through who wouldn't see it the same way. 

Edited October 27, 2023 by morcey2

[Rynon2112]

On 10/11/2023 at 4:49 PM, JohnnyKaizen said:

I cannot speak for anyone else but myself. I have found (quite literally) hundreds of times that Brandon's neurodivergence speaks directly to mine. I rationally understand how this line could throw you for a loop, but for me, it was an absolutely normal thing to happen. Sigzil/Nomad/Zellion was in so much grief that he disassociated from it, and forgot. My Uncle died three years ago..and I had to remind myself twice this week that he's dead. I forget all the time.

As a writer, it is exceptionally difficult to write things that everyone can relate to, and I think that is especially challenging for Brandon (and the fact that he succeeds at doing so, so much of the time speaks to his monumental talent) but I don't think it's at all fair to say that he is bad at writing grief because you personally didn't connect to the manner in which it's written (or even if a lot of people didn't ... as long as there is a group that does?) If it's just me that connected to it, then what I'm writing here would be applied to me instead. I feel that it's easy to jump to a conclusion that we ourselves don't have a personal connection to. Just my thoughts on this specific thing, for what it's worth.

I don't know if its neurodivergence or not as I am not diagnosed, but I experience it multiple times a week with all sorts of loved ones. My grandfather that died 5 year ago for example, or my dog that died last year. You forget, and when the realization comes, it hurts, a lot, but you don't breakdown every time and specially, not when under stress.

On 10/11/2023 at 10:55 PM, danex said:

for like the 9th time, it’s not the forgetting itself that was poor writing, it’s the way he writes Nomad’s reaction to it. Remembering that Aux is dead should be an absolute sucker punch. we get two words. Just like “ah right, i forgot. anyway…”

if brandon intended for this to be a dissociation-type moment, he needed to write that better too! there’s just nothing. he just didn’t write it. no indication that he’s experiencing any sort of trauma or whatever. you could argue “well it’s hard to show that when it’s from the PoV of the character disassociating”, but that’s still not an excuse, if that’s the case, he needed to add a PoV where he could show this dissociation or something. 

like you know “show don’t tell”? the age old writing advice? well brandon didn’t do either. you can’t argue “writing by omission”, you just can’t imply all of this without writing a single word on the page.

like none of this is actually about grief, it’s about writing. and this writing, is bad. he pulled out a chekhovs gun, waved it around, and then accidentally dropped it and walked away. 

I have found myself literally thinking "Oh yeah... right..." countless times and that doesn't mean that I don't suffer from it... I'm sorry that that didn't match your experience @danexbut I have to agree with @JohnnyKaizen, it really spoke to me

On 10/12/2023 at 10:44 PM, JohnnyKaizen said:

Again, for me..two words was all it took. It spoke to me on a visceral level. I don't feel that I need to go into all of the reasons why, simply that it did, and that made it feel like a very intentional choice. You clearly want Brandon to have written this part in a specific way, and he didn't, and you have negative feelings about that. I get that. That still doesn't mean he did a bad job on this specific thing. It means he made a choice you disagree with, and it's totally ok to disagree with that choice. I don't think it's ok to accuse him of being a bad writer, of slacking off, or whatever else.

Sanderson is probably the most intentional writer I know. He most definitely knows what he's written. Not to mention all of the people he has to alpha read, then beta read, then whoever he had be the editor for this book (I don't recall if that was his regular person or not) and then whoever that person had read the book. I find it difficult, in the extreme, to believe that all of those sets of eyes crossed over this book and nobody brought up, "Hey..this seem super brief for such a devastating loss" to Brandon, and that he didn't have a reason for writing it that way. I suppose there is that 1 in a billion chance, but I'm going to fall on the side of, he made that choice. I am sorry that this bothered you so much, and/or ruined that part of the story for you, because that really sucks. That made the writing bad for you, and I accept that. I don't except that that makes Sanderson a bad writer.

Couldn't have worded it better