Shaggai Posted June 22, 2014 Posted June 22, 2014 I have wondered about the shardblades as well. Adolin mentioned they would have been pretty much useless in such close quarters. However, when someone if trying to knife you, it does not make sense to leave out your main weapon. Maybe Sadeas didn't think Adolin would go this far? I think it's more that, at such close quarters, it's pretty easy to knock someone's hand away so they can't summon their Blade. If they summon the Blade, sure, it's useful. But there's the ten-beat delay, and in that time you just have to disrupt their concentration or knock their hand far enough away.
Aleksiel Posted June 22, 2014 Posted June 22, 2014 I think it's more that, at such close quarters, it's pretty easy to knock someone's hand away so they can't summon their Blade. If they summon the Blade, sure, it's useful. But there's the ten-beat delay, and in that time you just have to disrupt their concentration or knock their hand far enough away. Only Adolin wasn't paying much attention to Sadeas hands and the latter one didn't seem to even try to summon his Blade. He had Adolin's wrist in one hand, the other wasn't mentioned in the text and Adolin didn't notice any attempted summoning.
Guest Posted June 22, 2014 Posted June 22, 2014 Only Adolin wasn't paying much attention to Sadeas hands and the latter one didn't seem to even try to summon his Blade. He had Adolin's wrist in one hand, the other wasn't mentioned in the text and Adolin didn't notice any attempted summoning. True. I won't disagree with you on this. However, I have no idea why Sadeas, while fighting for his life, would not try to summon his shardblade. Even if he knew it would most probably be useless in such close quarters, desperation should have made him try it, at least. I get why Adolin did not go for his shardblade, but Sadeas? Any idea as to why that is?
Aleksiel Posted June 22, 2014 Posted June 22, 2014 (edited) Sadeas forgot he had a Blade, because he wasn't used to it. However, it is unlikely since we're talking professional soldier and warlord, who had his life at stake plenty of times and would have died much sooner if he was really that mindless. Sadeas began summoning his Blade, but Adolin didn't notice (hence the one hand that's not in the text) and died before the tenth heartbeat. The problem here is I'd expect Adolin to notice this regardless of his state; his survival instincts should have kicked in the moment Sadeas attempted such a dangerous action. It's improbable Adolin wouldn't notice the summoning of a Shardblade. I hope some else has a better idea. edit: just checked the text again and Sadeas was holding Adolin's wrist with both hands Edited June 22, 2014 by Aleksiel
Guest Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 Sadeas forgot he had a Blade, because he wasn't used to it. However, it is unlikely since we're talking professional soldier and warlord, who had his life at stake plenty of times and would have died much sooner if he was really that mindless. Sadeas began summoning his Blade, but Adolin didn't notice (hence the one hand that's not in the text) and died before the tenth heartbeat. The problem here is I'd expect Adolin to notice this regardless of his state; his survival instincts should have kicked in the moment Sadeas attempted such a dangerous action. It's improbable Adolin wouldn't notice the summoning of a Shardblade. I hope some else has a better idea. edit: just checked the text again and Sadeas was holding Adolin's wrist with both hands Can you summon a shardblade while holding something in your hands? Would Adolin necessarily noticed given his state of mind? Can you really notice it when someone summons a shardblade?
kari-no-sugata Posted June 23, 2014 Author Posted June 23, 2014 Can you summon a shardblade while holding something in your hands? Would Adolin necessarily noticed given his state of mind? Can you really notice it when someone summons a shardblade? On the last one, yes you can for sure - Dalinar kicks away Elhokar's Blade just as it materialises. I do think it's reasonable to say that Blades are not good in close combat - high risk of cutting yourself, hard to get a good clean sweep, high risk of being disarmed etc. I'd also like to point out that while Sedeas is a veteran he's not a veteran with a Blade - he wouldn't necessarily try to summon the blade instinctively.
Guest Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 I went to re-read the scene this morning. It looks bad. Adolin jumped on Sadeas choking him.... I thought it started more like a rumble than a choking match. It does look bad. Oh well. I guess I was wrong about that one. Poor Adolin, so unlike him For the shardblade, I guess that since Sadeas was holding up Adolin with both hands, it was kinda of hard to summon it. As Kari said, he would have cut his own self. Makes me still wonder why would Adolin decide to jump on Sadeas choking him? He could simply have summon his shardblade and plunged it into him or he could have withdrawn his knife and stab Sadeas.... Strange choice of tactics which reminds me of Adolin's duel against Salinor... He did resolved to "choking" at the end to make Salinor give out his blade. During this duel, he was lost in the Thrill and wanted to remind everyone they were at war. There is not mention of the Thrill during the fight with Sadeas, just rage. Coincidence or is it there really is a mad blood lusted Blackthorn sleeping within Adolin?
Aleksiel Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 Well, Sadeas was obviously losing and going to die anyway. He should have been desperate enough to risk cutting his own arm if that meant killing Adolin and thus surviving. It's unreasonable to think a professional soldier with decades of experience will just ignore his best weapon and not try to seize the slightest opportunity to survive.
Guest Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 Well, Sadeas was obviously losing and going to die anyway. He should have been desperate enough to risk cutting his own arm if that meant killing Adolin and thus surviving. It's unreasonable to think a professional soldier with decades of experience will just ignore his best weapon and not try to seize the slightest opportunity to survive. True enough. I agree, but what to make of it excepts that Sadeas may have wanted to be killed? Alright, I am rambling there, but he was planing to hurt Dalinar, to make him weep in a corner and I have always figured he planed to do this by taking out Adolin (evidences from his POV seemed to indicate it may have been his ultimate plan). It turns out he may very well have achieve his own goal, by dying. Sadeas has been wanting to push Adolin over the edge for a while now, he was taunting him knowing full well he did not have as good a control over his own self as Dalinar, he knew him to be impulsive... He was hoping for Adolin to do something brash. Turns out he did. So what if Sadeas decided forfeiting his own life what the best way to undermine Dalinar? What if he let Adolin killed him? Alright, I know this is a wild guess, but what if? Sadeas achieved his goal. Adolin is destroyed. Guilt will overwhelmed him. Dalinar will be forced to either condemn his own son or lose his grip on the highprinces. Either way, Sadeas wins. Either way, Dalinar will have to watch his son and heir go down. This will hurt, this may send him weeping, just as Sadeas wanted. He may effectively have removed the Kohlin's Golden Boy, the future of the family, with the act of dying. Renarin is not fit to be heir to the princedom, Elhokar is a useless wimp: Adolin was the one to continue the Kohlin's legacy. Adolin was insurance for the Kohlins. Not anymore. And all this because Sadeas died. What if he decided it was for the best? The only flaw I see in this improvised plan if the fact Sadeas is now dead and unable to savor the moment.... It could also be he had a sickness and his days were numbered... with his red sickly skin... maybe he thought it was a good bargain, in the end.
Aleksiel Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 I don't think Sadeas went Moriarty on Adolin. Why fight back at all if he had a death wish? Sadeas wanted to be king from what I remember.
Guest Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 I don't think Sadeas went Moriarty on Adolin. Why fight back at all if he had a death wish? Sadeas wanted to be king from what I remember. Yes, but once he figured out he was doomed..... His grip loosened... You buy that? Sadeas may have been fifty, he was strong. Could Adolin really have been strong enough, considering he had only one good hand, to overpowered the combined force of Sadeas's arms? Fifty is not that old.... And why didn't he try kicking or something? You know a good knee you know where is always effective to bring down someone. His soldiers were just down the hall.... It is highly improbable, I agree, but it would explain why he didn't try for his shardblade.
Tien'sPetLurg she/her Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 I was surprised by this turn of events, but I also Loved it. There were No tears over Sadeas from me! I think Ialai will be very hostile and her scheming will impact things in the next book. Who will pet her? http://coppermind.net/wiki/Ialai_Sadeas
Guest Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 I was surprised by this turn of events, but I also Loved it. There were No tears over Sadeas from me! I think Ialai will be very hostile and her scheming will impact things in the next book. Who will pet her? http://coppermind.net/wiki/Ialai_Sadeas I have this pet theory Amaram will marry Ialai in order to gain control of the Sadeas's princedom......... I think it is highly likely both will work together. They will blame the Kohlins and I do believe they will blame Adolin. He was the only one to be known to be in the area, he is known to be impulsive and he never disguised his hatred of Sadeas. Since I think it was Sadeas's plan all along, ie remove Adolin, I believe Ialai will continue down this path. She called him "a weapon", so it is fair to assume she would want him gone. However, without proof, the story won't go public, so she might just order her assassins to take him out. On the other hand, the best way to undermine Dalinar is to have the story go public. Put Dalinar in the horrible place where he has to decide of his son's fate, but that is assuming they can link the murder to Adolin. We may see "nice Amaram or his allies" trying to get a confession out of Adolin in the next book... So many possible ramifications.
Aleksiel Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 Amaram admitted to murder and theft in front of many witnesses, including two Highprinces. There's no way he wouldn't be trialed and sentenced. In order to cause trouble, Amaram would have to escape justice first.
Guest Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 (edited) Amaram admitted to murder and theft in front of many witnesses, including two Highprinces. There's no way he wouldn't be trialed and sentenced. In order to cause trouble, Amaram would have to escape justice first. Yes but he murdered darkeyes soldiers.... Does that even have weight against the other Highprinces? I do not think Amaram will suffer much consequences as I suspect pretty much every other Highprinces (including Dalinar himself) is guilty of the same except perhaps Sebrarial. However, in the wake of Sadeas's murder, it could be house Kohlin will strike a deal with the remains of house Sadeas... Clean Amaram's name. Appoint him as Highprince. In exchange, the Sadeas agree to let the charges go of Adolin's back. The truth behind the murder remains hidden. The other Highprinces do not know the truth, Adolin escapes justice, but he does not escape Dalinar's grudge. He is sent to Kohlinar or to Azir on "official business", but in reality it is punishment. Adolin escapes the worst, but he is left with overbearing guilt and the knowledge he has deceived his father. The relationship between father and son is shattered, but Dalinar's grip over Alethkar remains intact. Amaram gets what he wants. Ialai can still plot to assassinate Adolin as retribution, but she works in the shadow. Sending Adolin away thus both serves as punishment and as protection. Edited June 23, 2014 by maxal
Aleksiel Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 Yes but he murdered darkeyes soldiers.... Does that even have weight against the other Highprinces? I do not think Amaram will suffer much consequences as I suspect pretty much every other Highprinces (including Dalinar himself) is guilty of the same except perhaps Sebrarial. He murdered his own man, stole Shards and illegally enslaved their owner. I really don't share the view that others have done the same as Amaram when they order their men to assault plateaus. Dalinar definitely thought what Amaram did was a crime. 1
Guest Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 He murdered his own man, stole Shards and illegally enslaved their owner. I really don't share the view that others have done the same as Amaram when they order their men to assault plateaus. Dalinar definitely thought what Amaram did was a crime. It is not what I meant: I was not talking about the Plateaus runs. I meant other Highprinces may have ordered darkeyes soldiers murdered for similar/unjust reasons. We must remember most lighteyes do not value life of those under them. As for the shardblade, we must not forget Kaladin refused to take it. Had he taken it on the field, Amaram would never have stolen it. It does not make what Amaram did right and I am not trying to excuse his gesture, but I can see how such a man could fall under the temptation to take this discarded shardblade as his own. What he did was horrible, but I doubt all Highprinces would share Dalinar's views on the matter. Shardblades are a tool of the lighteyes and most of them would see it wasted on an untrained darkeye. In fact, we could even argue Kaladin shares some of the blame for his soldiers' faith. Kaladin was raised by his father to BE a lighteye. He was raised to act like one. He was given a lighteyed name and his family conspire to marry him to a lesser lighteyed woman. Effectively, we could say Kal was brought up to behave above his station and in a caste-like world such as Alethkar, it does not sit well. Kaladin did a brilliant and brave thing by saving Amaram. He did a stupid thing by discarding the blade he just won, but we can argue he had good reasons. However, giving it to his man was a horrible mistake. Who did he think he was? He is a lowly squadleader and he thinks he can give a SHARDS to an even more lowly darkeyes soldier who never held a sword before? He thought Amaram would be fine with this? No. If Kal had remembered his place and stopped acting like if he were the brightlord himself, he would have given them to Amaram, gladly. His man would have been saved. Kal would have been rewarded. Adolin accepting to have Kal give out shards to some other soldiers was amazing and this will come to bite back the Kohlins as Moash ran away with the shards. This gives even more reasons for the lighteyes to keep the shards within themselves. Look at what happened to the Kohlins: they give shards to a darkeye and he steals them! Amaram could easily use this as a defense. I am not surprised Amaram behaved like he did and I could bet most of the other high ranked lighteyes would have behave similarly. We must not forget most of them do not share "new Dalinar" vision of things. We must also remembered that "old" Dalinar, aka the Blackthorn, murdered people for a yes or for a no. If someone called him a bad name, he beheaded him on the spot. It does not make what Amaram did right: it was wrong and it was murder. However, I disagree that most Highprinces would take Dalinar's side in this. Amaram is well respected and liked. Many would not see the wrong in what Amaram did. Many would probably have done the exact same thing.
Aleksiel Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 It is not what I meant: I was not talking about the Plateaus runs. I meant other Highprinces may have ordered darkeyes soldiers murdered for similar/unjust reasons. We must remember most lighteyes do not value life of those under them. May be, but none of them was exposed. Lighteyes don't get away with murders like that, else the darkeyes would have rioted much sooner. Killing a slave possibly doesn't count as a crime in Alethi war, but randomly killing someone isn't a thing unless you have some textual evidence of lighteyes being allowed to kill darkeyes on a whim. As for the shardblade, we must not forget Kaladin refused to take it. Had he taken it on the field, Amaram would never have stolen it. It does not make what Amaram did right and I am not trying to excuse his gesture, but I can see how such a man could fall under the temptation to take this discarded shardblade as his own. What he did was horrible, but I doubt all Highprinces would share Dalinar's views on the matter. Shardblades are a tool of the lighteyes and most of them would see it wasted on an untrained darkeye. In fact, we could even argue Kaladin shares some of the blame for his soldiers' faith. Actually, we don't know what Amaram would have done had Kal taken the Shards. Kaladin wanted them given to one of his man and it was his right to do so as we see in WoR when he gives his Shards to Moash. Kaladin was raised by his father to BE a lighteye. He was raised to act like one. He was given a lighteyed name and his family conspire to marry him to a lesser lighteyed woman. Effectively, we could say Kal was brought up to behave above his station and in a caste-like world such as Alethkar, it does not sit well. Hush now, you don't want Kaladin to hear you! Kaladin did a brilliant and brave thing by saving Amaram. He did a stupid thing by discarding the blade he just won, but we can argue he had good reasons. However, giving it to his man was a horrible mistake. Who did he think he was? He is a lowly squadleader and he thinks he can give a SHARDS to an even more lowly darkeyes soldier who never held a sword before? He thought Amaram would be fine with this? No. If Kal had remembered his place and stopped acting like if he were the brightlord himself, he would have given them to Amaram, gladly. His man would have been saved. Kal would have been rewarded. Adolin accepting to have Kal give out shards to some other soldiers was amazing and this will come to bite back the Kohlins as Moash ran away with the shards. This gives even more reasons for the lighteyes to keep the shards within themselves. Look at what happened to the Kohlins: they give shards to a darkeye and he steals them! Amaram could easily use this as a defense. I am not surprised Amaram behaved like he did and I could bet most of the other high ranked lighteyes would have behave similarly. We must not forget most of them do not share "new Dalinar" vision of things. We must also remembered that "old" Dalinar, aka the Blackthorn, murdered people for a yes or for a no. If someone called him a bad name, he beheaded him on the spot. It does not make what Amaram did right: it was wrong and it was murder. However, I disagree that most Highprinces would take Dalinar's side in this. Amaram is well respected and liked. Many would not see the wrong in what Amaram did. Many would probably have done the exact same thing. I don't think Kal got ahead of himself when he gave the Shards to his comrade, but even if he did that doesn't justify murder. Amaram could have handled it differently. He could have declared the Shards are his if Kaladin won't take them for himself and get a little stain on his reputation, that would have likely been over-looked by any lighteyes. Moash is a bad example. Most people don't personally hate the king and conspire to murder him, though Amaram might be arrogant enough to bring it up on his trial.
Guest Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 May be, but none of them was exposed. Lighteyes don't get away with murders like that, else the darkeyes would have rioted much sooner. Killing a slave possibly doesn't count as a crime in Alethi war, but randomly killing someone isn't a thing unless you have some textual evidence of lighteyes being allowed to kill darkeyes on a whim. True enough, but I wouldn't be surprised to find many dead skeletons in most of the Highprinces cupboards.... They may not blatantly murder darkeyes, but they may find ways to do it, hypocritically. Moash's parents are a good example of this. They were effectively murdered for no other reason than favoritism by the king's decree, but it did not go down this way among the lighteyes. Roshone was punished, true, but we could argue his punishment was a light one considering what he was guilty of doing. Actually, we don't know what Amaram would have done had Kal taken the Shards. Kaladin wanted them given to one of his man and it was his right to do so as we see in WoR when he gives his Shards to Moash. Was it really in his right? Lighteyes have the right to appoint a champion to carry their shards (not a standard practice), but Kal is not a lighteye. Shards are extremely valuable weapons reserved to the elite of the fighting forces. They are wasted on a simple spearman with no tactical training and swordsmanship experience. Shards are always given to trained individual of proper rank, never to low ranked soldiers no matter how good they are. Did Kal really have the right to do so? He certainly was in his right to keep them for himself and I agree we do not know what Amaram would have done, but to give them to his man? The Kohlins are a bad example. Adolin clearly felt he owed it to Kal (and with reasons). So did Dalinar. They let it pass, because they are good people, but I doubt other Highprinces would have behave in the same way. Besides, when was the last time a lighteye gave shards to a darkeye in the history of Roshar? I wouldn't be surprised if it was the first time it happened, ever. The last darkeye to carry shards died 500 years ago and he won them on the battlefield, I think if I recalled the story properly. Hush now, you don't want Kaladin to hear you! But it is true I blame as much Lirin as I blame Kal in this. Kal should know better, but he consistently acts above his station. He sometimes acts as if he was the Highprince himself and that is troubling. Even in our world, having the head of your security take a talking turn in a meeting with the President would never, never happened. He is lucky now that his station finally reached his attitude I keep reading people thinking Adolin needs to realized how privileged he was and become more grateful or something, but I believe Kaladin needs to learn to shut up and take his hole once in a while I don't think Kal got ahead of himself when he gave the Shards to his comrade, but even if he did that doesn't justify murder. Amaram could have handled it differently. He could have declared the Shards are his if Kaladin won't take them for himself and get a little stain on his reputation, that would have likely been over-looked by any lighteyes. Moash is a bad example. Most people don't personally hate the king and conspire to murder him, though Amaram might be arrogant enough to bring it up on his trial. I think he did act above himself, but it is true it does not justify murder. However, I am not sure the other Highprinces will think this way. They may think Amaram was justified as this ungrateful darkeye refuse to willingly give his lord the shards he refused to take for himself. It is true Amaram dealed with the issue in the worst possible way. His clearly works to hard to maintain his spotless reputation, probably to cover for his activities as a Son of Honor. Moash is a very good example. As I mentioned previously, it probably never happened to have a lighteye give out shards to a darkeyes and worst accept this darkeye to give out shards to an even lower ranked soldier.............. This is unprecedented in Rosharian history and it turned out bad. Kal is mightily guilty for this as HE insisted to give his shards to a man he KNEW was plotting to assassinate the king. In fact, if I were Amaram, I WOULD bring that up. See people what happens when you let THIS man decides who the shards should go to? Bottom line is Kal likes to whine and to complain on how life is unfair to him, but he some of his miseries are his doing, entirely. He stubbornly insisted on giving shards to a lowly soldier knowing full well this is not how the world works. His man were killed because Amaram is a scumbag, but what Kaladin tried to do was offending. Had he just follow the rules, none of this would have happened. When he saw how badly Amaram was reacting to his announcement, he should have backtracked. He should have give them to Amaram, excusing himself for thinking outside his station, but he insisted on being treated as an equal. Remarkable, but foolish and Lirin is to blame for most of this. That's the whole issue with Kal, he keeps thinking everyone upholds his code of honor, but they don't.
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 We're not even sure that this is the first time a Shard has been stolen from a Darkeyes. I don't know about any of the rest of you, but I found one of the stories of a Shardbearer dying to be very fishy. I don't remember where it is to find the exact quote, but the story of the lighteye archer who killed the bearer at fifty paces seems to be incredibly fishy to me. How does one archer fire a perfect shot in between a mass of bodies all swarming one person, at the exact moment his breastplate explodes? If it was a legitimate kill, he would have needed to at that moment, because with everyone there competing already for a kill, with spears at the ready for thrusting. Easier instead to kill the survivors with a Shardblade and claim the archer killed him.
Guest Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 We're not even sure that this is the first time a Shard has been stolen from a Darkeyes. I don't know about any of the rest of you, but I found one of the stories of a Shardbearer dying to be very fishy. I don't remember where it is to find the exact quote, but the story of the lighteye archer who killed the bearer at fifty paces seems to be incredibly fishy to me. How does one archer fire a perfect shot in between a mass of bodies all swarming one person, at the exact moment his breastplate explodes? If it was a legitimate kill, he would have needed to at that moment, because with everyone there competing already for a kill, with spears at the ready for thrusting. Easier instead to kill the survivors with a Shardblade and claim the archer killed him. I wouldn't be surprised if it weren't the first time. However, I still maintain it was not in Kal's right to give out his shards to another soldier. It just is not something that is done. I could see why it would be offending to the lighteyes.
Horatio Spifflewicket Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 I was thinking... Would Nalan see what Adolin did as right? Clearly, Adolin has broken A law. So, Skybreaker justice would require Nalan to disagree profoundly with what Adolin did. Could this be part of what the WoB was meaning?
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 I wouldn't be surprised if it weren't the first time. However, I still maintain it was not in Kal's right to give out his shards to another soldier. It just is not something that is done. I could see why it would be offending to the lighteyes In the Adolin situation, yes, I agree entirely. Kal had no right to give them away. But in the battle, Amaram had no rights whatsoever over that Shardblade. Amaram should've been dead. If he wanted the blade, he should have killed Kaladin, as that's the only legal recourse to take someone's blade, but he couldn't do that outside of an official duel for the blade. For all intents and purposes, Kaladin became a Lighteyes of very high rank, probably as important as Amaram. I'm not sure what Dahn specifically it would make him, a cursory search couldn't find the passage. So Amaram did not do those things to a darkeyes. He branded a lighteyes of a high dahn as a slave, stole his property, and killed his men. Kaladin would have been granted his squad for his new chunk of land, and he can appoint whomever he wants as a champion with his shards. 4
Aleksiel Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 (edited) We're not even sure that this is the first time a Shard has been stolen from a Darkeyes. I don't know about any of the rest of you, but I found one of the stories of a Shardbearer dying to be very fishy. I don't remember where it is to find the exact quote, but the story of the lighteye archer who killed the bearer at fifty paces seems to be incredibly fishy to me. How does one archer fire a perfect shot in between a mass of bodies all swarming one person, at the exact moment his breastplate explodes? If it was a legitimate kill, he would have needed to at that moment, because with everyone there competing already for a kill, with spears at the ready for thrusting. Easier instead to kill the survivors with a Shardblade and claim the archer killed him. It was a fishy story, likely a made up one. But Amaram got busted. Suspicious stories of earning Shards might be over-looked, but the murder of Kal's friends is now a public knowledge. Kal is currently Radiant, so his testimony against Amaram will have more weigh than when he was darkeyes. I was thinking... Would Nalan see what Adolin did as right? Clearly, Adolin has broken A law. So, Skybreaker justice would require Nalan to disagree profoundly with what Adolin did. Could this be part of what the WoB was meaning? The Skybreakers certainly will disapprove of what he did: Q: Are there Radiant orders that would take someone like Adolin even after what he does at the end of Words of Radiant? A: I am not going to say whether or not Adolin will become a Knights Radiant, but yes, there are several orders that would be very happy with what he did.Q: Like the Skybreakers or Dustbringers?A: The Skybreakers would probably not want him because he broke a law, but there are other orders that would think he completely did the right thing and be very happy with him. But since Adolin isn't a surgebinder, Nin won't care. He's too busy chasing dinner-stealing 12-year olds. In the Adolin situation, yes, I agree entirely. Kal had no right to give them away. But in the battle, Amaram had no rights whatsoever over that Shardblade. Amaram should've been dead. If he wanted the blade, he should have killed Kaladin, as that's the only legal recourse to take someone's blade, but he couldn't do that outside of an official duel for the blade. For all intents and purposes, Kaladin became a Lighteyes of very high rank, probably as important as Amaram. I'm not sure what Dahn specifically it would make him, a cursory search couldn't find the passage. So Amaram did not do those things to a darkeyes. He branded a lighteyes of a high dahn as a slave, stole his property, and killed his men. Kaladin would have been granted his squad for his new chunk of land, and he can appoint whomever he wants as a champion with his shards. I hadn't thought of it that way, but you are right. Have my up-vote! But it is true I blame as much Lirin as I blame Kal in this. Kal should know better, but he consistently acts above his station. He sometimes acts as if he was the Highprince himself and that is troubling. Even in our world, having the head of your security take a talking turn in a meeting with the President would never, never happened. He is lucky now that his station finally reached his attitude I keep reading people thinking Adolin needs to realized how privileged he was and become more grateful or something, but I believe Kaladin needs to learn to shut up and take his hole once in a while ........ Bottom line is Kal likes to whine and to complain on how life is unfair to him, but he some of his miseries are his doing, entirely. He stubbornly insisted on giving shards to a lowly soldier knowing full well this is not how the world works. His man were killed because Amaram is a scumbag, but what Kaladin tried to do was offending. Had he just follow the rules, none of this would have happened. When he saw how badly Amaram was reacting to his announcement, he should have backtracked. He should have give them to Amaram, excusing himself for thinking outside his station, but he insisted on being treated as an equal. Remarkable, but foolish and Lirin is to blame for most of this. That's the whole issue with Kal, he keeps thinking everyone upholds his code of honor, but they don't. I agree with almost everything here on Kaladin. However, Kal doesn't think everyone else upholds his moral, he thinks lighteyes have non at all. Also, I see no reason to give the Shards to Amaram. Even if he had done so, Amaram would have killed his men and enslave him with the same reasoning: 'You'd change your mind and I can't have that. Nobody will believe you gave the Shards away.' edit: changing disprove to disapprove Edited June 23, 2014 by Aleksiel
Guest Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 In the Adolin situation, yes, I agree entirely. Kal had no right to give them away. But in the battle, Amaram had no rights whatsoever over that Shardblade. Amaram should've been dead. If he wanted the blade, he should have killed Kaladin, as that's the only legal recourse to take someone's blade, but he couldn't do that outside of an official duel for the blade. For all intents and purposes, Kaladin became a Lighteyes of very high rank, probably as important as Amaram. I'm not sure what Dahn specifically it would make him, a cursory search couldn't find the passage. So Amaram did not do those things to a darkeyes. He branded a lighteyes of a high dahn as a slave, stole his property, and killed his men. Kaladin would have been granted his squad for his new chunk of land, and he can appoint whomever he wants as a champion with his shards. Upon becoming a shardbearer, you automatically become a lighteye of the fourth dahn. Adolin says so when he gives the shards to Moash. As for the Amaram situation, Kal did NOT take the shardblade. He refused it. He therefore did not gain any status. He left it there, on the ground. He even refuse to pick it up. Based on this, it was not his to give out as it never belonged to him in the first place. He was entitled to own it, but he would not enforce it. His lost. But the thought of touching that Blade sickened him. It represented everything he'd come to hate about the lighteyes, and it had just slaughtered men he loved dearly. He could not become a legend because of something like that. He looked at his reflection in the Blade's pitiless metal, then lowered his hand and turned away. "It's yours, Coreb, " Kaladin said. "I give it to you". "What?" Cored said from behind. Ahead, Amaram's honor guard had finally returned, apprehensively appearing at the top of the small hollow, looking ashamed. "What are you doing?" Amaram demanded as Kaladin pased him. "What - Aren't you going to take the Blade?" "I don't want it," Kaladin said softly. "I'm giving it to my men". He never hold it. He was never his. He never gained any status. He naively thought it was his to give out. This is not how it works. This is not how army works. This passage leads me to think Amaram would have let Kaladin keep the blade, but the fact Kal rejected it was too tempting. Not to forget the fact he gave it to his man, it must have felt like an insult to someone like Amaram. Amaram has good defense, I believe. I sincerely doubt he will be trialed for these events, no matter what Dalinar thinks.
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