Dalinar, Sadeas's murder and public opinion

[kari-no-sugata]

For all that's been written about it, I don't think the aftermath of Sadeas's murder will be a big part of book 3. It will be important for some characters but there'll be much more important things going on. But I have some thoughts on this I'd like to share.

 

Two quotes from chapter 50 "uncut gems":

Adolin took a gulp of wine, not trusting himself to reply. I should just get up and walk away. But he didn't. A small part of him wished for Sadeas to provoke him, push away his inhibitions, drive him to do something stupid. Killing the man right here, right now, would likely earn Adolin an execution - or at least an exile. It might be worth either punishment.

"I doubt it. I'll have rammed my sword through your gut long before that, Sadeas."
  Sadeas raised his cup of wine, then walked off, joining a different group of lighteyes. Adolin let out a long sigh of exhaustion, then leaned back against the chair. Nearby, his short bridgeman guard - the one with the silver at his temples - gave Adolin a nod of respect.

 

I don't think many people are going to morn Sadeas's passing, to put it mildly. I've not seen any indication that he was popular or well liked anymore. In particular, for many people in Dalinar's camp, the reaction is more likely to be the reverse - grim joy that the bastard finally got what was coming to him. Dalinar lost several thousand soldiers at the end of tWoK, all because of Sadeas. The new bridgemen soldiers would hardly be well disposed to Sadeas either. Also, a number of lighteyes died during the bridge collapse assassination attempt.

 

Let's put it another way: most of the people in Dalinar's camp would probably think Adolin deserves a medal. Dalinar exiling Adolin (or similar) would not be popular at all with them. This could potentially open up a dangerous rift within Dalinar's camp.

 

Please note: I'm not arguing whether Adolin's actions were moral or not by our standards or that the law is a popularity contest. I'm trying to consider the likely in-world implications. Also, I'll assume for the sake of argument that Adolin is generally considered guilty and/or confesses to the murder relatively quickly and that Dalinar will come down hard on him. I'll also assume that Kaladin won't play much if any part in this (off to see parents)

 

This wouldn't be the best start for Dalinar's Oath to bind men together. I also think that Dalinar is partly to blame for giving Sadeas way too much leeway. Yes, Dalinar was in a difficult situation but I think he was partly motivated by his old friendship with Sadeas. Ditto Amaran - I suspect that letting him run free will turn out to be a big mistake. Being benevolent is all well and good but there are downsides. It also rather unfair and inconsistent if Dalinar is harsh with his allies and soft with his enemies.

 

So, what can be done? I don't think Dalinar will be willing to simply pardon Adolin and he'd certainly not want to have him executed. It seems the minimum possible punishment would normally be exile. But it would be surprising to see Adolin simply walk off the stage (let alone be executed). I suspect that Adolin will be imprisoned until a final punishment is decided.

 

So again, what can be done? Based on what we know, I think maybe the best option would be to retro-actively get Sedeas declared to have been a traitor to the Throne and have his title of Highprince stripped. I think that would help a lot - I get the impression that killing a Highprince is automatically a much bigger crime. Given the mitigating circumstances maybe Adolin's punishment will boil down to time in jail and losing a rank. Of course, there's a lot we don't know about Alethi law - maybe this would be a non-option but it seems reasonable to me currently.

 

So who is going to put together a compelling case, enough that pretty much everyone would accept it (including the other Highprinces)? My bet would be on Shallan and Renarin with some help from Navani. The main "opposition" would be Ialai.

 

So, why Shallan? For brevity's sake I'll just consider what I think is the most likely reaction: Shallan has killed people herself (Tyn the day before she met Adolin), she was very much aware that Adolin hates Sadeas since she put together a plan to have Sadeas legally killed in a duel (to help/impress Adolin). Morally, she might not see much difference between legally killing someone in a dual and what Adolin did. So, I think Shallan would be surprised but not horrified - she would understand and not condemn.

 

In a way, it could help them get closer since Shallan could feel that she could discuss her dark secrets with Adolin. The more Shallan cares about Adolin the more likely she would be to take action - if she doesn't care much about him and if supporting him would become a liability for protecting her bothers then yes she could just walk away (which would really hurt Adolin I think).

 

So, why Renarin? Certainly events in WoR clearly showed him willing to risk life and limb to help/protect Adolin. Of course, we don't know for sure how Renarin would react in these particular circumstances. I suspect he will feel quite conflicted at the beginning - he respects his father too. I could certainly see him getting behind a plan to retro-actively strip Sadeas of his title, or something along those lines.

 

So, could Shallan and Renarin work together, despite the events towards the end of WoR? I'd say so - there were mitigating circumstances on both sides and greater understanding would definitely help (and apologies). Before things got bad, Shallan and Renarin were getting along fine and Renarin was arguably more useful and faster on the uptake than the trained scholars (!).

 

 

So, in summary: Adolin spends a lot of time in the slammer with a proverbial axe hanging over him. His fiancée and brother lead the fight for him. Sadeas's widow is the "new" (public) opposition. Dalinar stews in the middle, thinking lots of deep thoughts and worries about his own people and own sons. There's lots and lots of other possibilities but this is my main prediction currently - which I expect will be utterly wrong in practice

 

[Aleksiel]

Elhokar can pardon any crime and pardoning Adolin probably won't be too much against the public opinion.

 

I think Adolin's greatest trouble will be with himself and Dalinar/Shallan. There are WoB some characters will react very poorly about what Adolin did and my spheres are on Shallan. Though it'd be very hypocritical of Shallan to judge him, but definitely not unlike her.

 

 

 

Q:  Will it have any ramifications for him down the line? With how it was handled?
A:  Oh, there are definitely ramifications. How it's handled, there's lots of ramifications. And there are certain characters who would think that what he did is totally, totally, totally wrong.

source

 

Dalinar exiling anyone is against his second Oath and I don't see him damaging his bond with the Stormfather so soon, thus I find it unlikely for Adolin to be officially exiled. May be send to Kholinar to deal with the rioters or something like that, but not permanently banished.

 

I think Kal will be one of the characters who'd strongly disapprove. What Adolin did can be viewed as what he refused to do in WoR: 'killing a man in the dark, because we find him distasteful' (or something like that when reasoning with Moash to not murder Elhokar). Now, there's a huge difference between Sadeas and Elhokar, and also between the circumstances the (attempted) murders accured, but I'm not sure Kal will see it that way.

 

I don't know how Renarin will react, may be disproving what Adolin did, but still being on his side. From the little we know about Truthwatchers, I'd say they tend to stay away from public affairs. Though it'd be quite the (unlikely) plot twist for Renarin to be against Adolin.

 

Since Brandon says there will be 'lots of ramifications', I think Adolin's actions will be a significant subplot in the next book.

[kari-no-sugata]

Elhokar can pardon any crime and pardoning Adolin probably won't be too much against the public opinion.

 

Yes, but he won't. Or rather, Dalinar won't. (hmm, interesting thought - what if Elhokar sides with Adolin and issues his own pardon, ignoring Dalinar?)

 

I guess I needed to explain my expectation for Dalinar's POV more: If Dalinar has Adolin pardoned it would be terrible politics with the other Highprinces. He would also be a hypocrite. While the other Highprinces wouldn't morn Sadeas that doesn't mean they'll now simply do whatever Dalinar wants. I could also imagine them reacting like this: "Oh, so now that you're a Radiant you've going to have your son assassinate those who disagree with you then pardon him huh? The Radiants betrayed us before - I guess it's just to be expected".

 

I don't think Dalinar would react like a Skybreaker but I think he would be close - I think he would see Adolin's actions as a crime that need to be punished but find it really hard to decide the "right" punishment. He would also need to balance public opinion and the Highprinces (and even other nations).

 

I think Adolin's greatest trouble will be with himself and Dalinar/Shallan. There are WoB some characters will react very poorly about what Adolin did and my spheres are on Shallan. Though it'd be very hypocritical of Shallan to judge him, but definitely not unlike her.

You mean that being hypocritical is typical for Shallan?

Either way, I disagree. She does not see Adolin as perfect and wouldn't want him to be perfect either - remember her talk in the chasms about a masterpiece painting showing the flaw/vulnerability in the hero? So, I don't think she'd feel that her expectations were betrayed. She certainly wouldn't care for Sadeas - she has seen how Adolin reacts to Sadeas like when she was at the Pinnacle she saw angerspren pooling under Adolin when Sadeas was talking and in a later chapter Adolin explained what happened in tWoK. It's after that that Shallan came up with a plan that should have resulted in Adolin killing Sadeas - in the duelling arena.

 

In short, I have trouble thinking what Shallan would react badly to. The way I see it the more she cares for Adolin the less likely she'll react poorly. Maybe you see it the other way around?

 

Maybe I'm reading her wrong but she already sees him as someone she wants to help and assist - someone like her brothers. Rather than her blowing up against Adolin I think we'll see her blow up against Dalinar - which would be much more fun

 

She did react badly to Jasnah killing those thieves, which we have WoB on is worse than what Adolin did. Shallan was there and saw which seems to be most of the reason why she reacted so badly. She got over that and by WoR is thinking of Jasnah as someone practically "divine".

 

Dalinar exiling anyone is against his second Oath and I don't see him damaging his bond with the Stormfather so soon, thus I find it unlikely for Adolin to be officially exiled. May be send to Kholinar to deal with the rioters or something like that, but not permanently banished.

Hmm, sending Adolin to Kholinar to deal with the riots is a really good idea!

 

I think Kal will be one of the characters who'd strongly disapprove. What Adolin did can be viewed as what he refused to do in WoR: 'killing a man in the dark, because we find him distasteful' (or something like that when reasoning with Moash to not murder Elhokar). Now, there's a huge difference between Sadeas and Elhokar, and also between the circumstances the (attempted) murders accured, but I'm not sure Kal will see it that way.

I generally agree. I'm expecting Kaladin not to be around so kinda ignored him.

 

I don't know how Renarin will react, may be disproving what Adolin did, but still being on his side. From the little we know about Truthwatchers, I'd say they tend to stay away from public affairs. Though it'd be quite the (unlikely) plot twist for Renarin to be against Adolin.

There's all sorts of possibilities for sure, since we know little about Renarin. It's high time he got some POVs, particularly since he's come out as a Radiant - the more proactive he is (ie trying to achieve something) the more likely we are to see his POVs.

 

If there's going to be a "twist" of some kind with Renarin I think it would be something like this: he finds out about Sadeas death like everyone else but at the time the murderer is unclear. He uses his Radiant powers to investigate and realises it was Adolin, which unintentionally goes public. Effectively he betrays Adolin, even though it was accidental and this hurts both brothers. To try to make amends, Renarin tries to do what he can to help...

 

[Aleksiel]

 

Yes, but he won't. Or rather, Dalinar won't. (hmm, interesting thought - what if Elhokar sides with Adolin and issues his own pardon, ignoring Dalinar?)

 

I guess I needed to explain my expectation for Dalinar's POV more: If Dalinar has Adolin pardoned it would be terrible politics with the other Highprinces. He would also be a hypocrite. While the other Highprinces wouldn't morn Sadeas that doesn't mean they'll now simply do whatever Dalinar wants. I could also imagine them reacting like this: "Oh, so now that you're a Radiant you've going to have your son assassinate those who disagree with you then pardon him huh? The Radiants betrayed us before - I guess it's just to be expected".

 

Well, Dalinar can't really pardon anyone since he isn't the king. I'm hoping Elhokar already had enough of being ordered around by his uncle and does what he thinks best in the situation regardless of Dalinar. It's about time for him to man up and be a better person and king.

 

 

 

You mean that being hypocritical is typical for Shallan?

 

I think Shallan is hypocritical at times, but it isn't just that.

 

We do have WoB what Jasnah did is worse according to Brandon, but we don't know what Shallan will think. She might very well make a twisted parallel between Adolin, being a nice guy, but killing someone in anger much like her father went from a loving and caring person to a....

 

Adolin isn't like her father, but I can see how what he did might remind Shallan of her father and scare her. I don't expect her to react well when she finds out. All the people Shallan killed were actively trying to kill her, whereas Sadeas was being passive aggressive/threatening Adolin, so this I think will make a huge difference in her mind and this is where I expect the said hypocrisy to kick in. 

 

I mentioned Kal, because I think he'll be back before the Sadeas's murder subplot gets resolved and I expect all major characters to participate when that happens. May be it won't be that big of a deal, it's just that WoB about the 'many ramifications' for Adolin make me think it'll be a significant part of Adolin's story arc and thus the next book. 

[Localconfusi0n]

For some reason my computer isn't letting me paste the quote I'm trying to, but Aleksiel, I disagree with you about Kaladin frowning upon what Adolin did for a couple reasons.

 

Personally Kaladin will probably be fairly relieved that Sadeas is dead since he caused Kal so much grief. But in another since, in a way killing Sadeas was what was right to do. Sadeas was murdering and attempting to murder some of the people that will save the most lives. His plotting, had it come to fruition, would have had devastating effects on all of life on Roshar and by killing him Adolin removed a threat to all the people who live on Roshar. And about the killing a man quietly in the dark reference, that seems to be about assassination, so since Adolin didn't really assassinate Sadeas Kaladin probably wont disagree with anything Adolin did.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

I think that the biggest consequences will come from Amaram. Amaram was bound to Sadeas, and was just publicly humiliated/denounced by the Kholinar family. As far as succession goes, Amaram seems fairly likely to step up and take over Sadeas' princedom, especially being a full shardbearer (IIRC, Sadeas did not have any other Shardbearers under himself in his princedom, other than Amaram, but I'm not entirely sure on that.) So how will Amaram react to this?

 

I personally see Amaram using Sadeas' death to turn him into a martyr. He will rally all of Sadea's allies, and a there will be a civil war of sorts between the two sects for control of Urithiru. Dalinar will be hesitant to use his new Proto-Radiants against other Alethi humans, and the war will go badly for him. That's when Szeth shows up, after having dealt with whatever he's going to do in Shinovar, and Szeth will be the one to remedy things, earning him a pardon and acceptance in the new Radiants. I really like this because it mirrors the Skybreaker's epigraph in a small way. Especially if Kaladin shows up, and they ensue in a great debate over whether or not Adolin is guilty. 

[Aleksiel]

For some reason my computer isn't letting me paste the quote I'm trying to, but Aleksiel, I disagree with you about Kaladin frowning upon what Adolin did for a couple reasons.

 

Personally Kaladin will probably be fairly relieved that Sadeas is dead since he caused Kal so much grief. But in another since, in a way killing Sadeas was what was right to do. Sadeas was murdering and attempting to murder some of the people that will save the most lives. His plotting, had it come to fruition, would have had devastating effects on all of life on Roshar and by killing him Adolin removed a threat to all the people who live on Roshar. And about the killing a man quietly in the dark reference, that seems to be about assassination, so since Adolin didn't really assassinate Sadeas Kaladin probably wont disagree with anything Adolin did.

 

Adolin committed a crime, he assassinated Sadeas and we know Kal's opinion on assassination. What Adolin did wasn't honorable and I don't think it was what a Windrunner would do, thus I suspect Kal won't be happy about it. I don't think he'll openly stand against Adolin, but Kal will disapprove of what Adolin did. Kal himself not only stopped Elhokar's assassination, but also never tried to kill Amaram outside the law - he challenged him to a duel and didn't go to his camp to murder him in the night, despite thinking about it.

 

 

I think that the biggest consequences will come from Amaram. ....

 

 Wouldn't Amaram be trialed for killing his own men and stealing Shards? He confessed and there were witnesses outside Dalinar's camp - at least one other highprince and some of his men. I can't imagine Amaram getting away and openly seizing power in the next book.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

Adolin committed a crime, he assassinated Sadeas and we know Kal's opinion on assassination. What Adolin did wasn't honorable and I don't think it was what a Windrunner would do, thus I suspect Kal won't be happy about it. I don't think he'll openly stand against Adolin, but Kal will disapprove of what Adolin did. Kal himself not only stopped Elhokar's assassination, but also never tried to kill Amaram outside the law - he challenged him to a duel and didn't go to his camp to murder him in the night, despite thinking about it.

 

 

 

 Wouldn't Amaram be trialed for killing his own men and stealing Shards? He confessed and there were witnesses outside Dalinar's camp - at least one other highprince and some of his men. I can't imagine Amaram getting away and openly seizing power in the next book.

 

He will be, but that won't stop him from plotting and securing alliances before then. Especially when there also will have to be a trial for Adolin. 

 

 

"And we will try him fairly." Dalinar said, "once I return. I can't imprison him-Shardbearers are above that, and he'd cut his way out anyway. Either you execute a Shardbearer or you leave him free." 

WoR Chapter 76

[kari-no-sugata]

Well, Dalinar can't really pardon anyone since he isn't the king. I'm hoping Elhokar already had enough of being ordered around by his uncle and does what he thinks best in the situation regardless of Dalinar. It's about time for him to man up and be a better person and king.

Yep. Though I think the problem he's had to date is that any time he tries he's screwed it up.

 

We do have WoB what Jasnah did is worse according to Brandon, but we don't know what Shallan will think. She might very well make a twisted parallel between Adolin, being a nice guy, but killing someone in anger much like her father went from a loving and caring person to a....

 

Adolin isn't like her father, but I can see how what he did might remind Shallan of her father and scare her. I don't expect her to react well when she finds out. All the people Shallan killed were actively trying to kill her, whereas Sadeas was being passive aggressive/threatening Adolin, so this I think will make a huge difference in her mind and this is where I expect the said hypocrisy to kick in.

 

Shallan's father wasn't trying to kill her at any time. He did knock her to the ground, but otherwise showed no indication that he intended to hurt her directly. Of course, he had just killed her step-mother in cold blood and was killing Balat in front of her.

 

Shallan was also prepared to pre-emptively kill Mraize at the end of WoR for threatening her brothers. It's basically the same as what Adolin was facing with Sadeas but with less personal history involved... and Shallan stopped when Mraize made it clear there's no immediate danger.

 

I don't think Adolin's actions would remind her of her father, unless Adolin suddenly changes. A more likely scenario would be equating him with Kabsal - "nice guy I've been semi-dating turns out to be a killer". However, I still don't see that being the most likely scenario since Shallan has already tried to help Adolin kill Sadeas. If it was someone other than Sadeas then maybe.

 

Of course, it's also possible that Adolin might decide to break things off with Shallan for her own good...

 

I mentioned Kal, because I think he'll be back before the Sadeas's murder subplot gets resolved and I expect all major characters to participate when that happens. May be it won't be that big of a deal, it's just that WoB about the 'many ramifications' for Adolin make me think it'll be a significant part of Adolin's story arc and thus the next book.

Hard to predict how long Kaladin will be away for. He might want to escort his parents to safety (ie Urithru) which would take some time even assuming nothing much happens (which is unlikely). 1-2 months I'd figure.

I agree it's highly likely that the ramifications for Adolin himself will dominate the book. It would be awfully boring if he's basically just sitting in prison the whole time though.

[Aleksiel]

Yep. Though I think the problem he's had to date is that any time he tries he's screwed it up.

 

 

Shallan's father wasn't trying to kill her at any time. He did knock her to the ground, but otherwise showed no indication that he intended to hurt her directly. Of course, he had just killed her step-mother in cold blood and was killing Balat in front of her.

 

Shallan was also prepared to pre-emptively kill Mraize at the end of WoR for threatening her brothers. It's basically the same as what Adolin was facing with Sadeas but with less personal history involved... and Shallan stopped when Mraize made it clear there's no immediate danger.

 

I don't think Adolin's actions would remind her of her father, unless Adolin suddenly changes. A more likely scenario would be equating him with Kabsal - "nice guy I've been semi-dating turns out to be a killer". However, I still don't see that being the most likely scenario since Shallan has already tried to help Adolin kill Sadeas. If it was someone other than Sadeas then maybe.

 

Of course, it's also possible that Adolin might decide to break things off with Shallan for her own good...

 

Hard to predict how long Kaladin will be away for. He might want to escort his parents to safety (ie Urithru) which would take some time even assuming nothing much happens (which is unlikely). 1-2 months I'd figure.

I agree it's highly likely that the ramifications for Adolin himself will dominate the book. It would be awfully boring if he's basically just sitting in prison the whole time though.

 

Shallan once reacted poorly to Adolin's promise of protection and thought of her father, despite all differences. This make me think she'll overreact to Adolin's crime. We just read her character differently on the matter. 

 

Also, Brandon said he's fond of conflicts in relationships and I think Shadolin is going to fall apart next book. 

[Localconfusi0n]

its still not letting me quote, but anyways, I really doubt Kaladin will have any problem with what Adolin did because, regardless of the fact that Adolin committed a crime, it was what was right and that is what Syl and Kaladin care about, Klasin is not aSkybreaker and Syl is not a Highspren, so neither of them will care that a crime was committed. All they will care about is that the death os Sadeas was necessary and now many lives will be saved from it.

[kaellok he/him]

its still not letting me quote, but anyways, I really doubt Kaladin will have any problem with what Adolin did because, regardless of the fact that Adolin committed a crime, it was what was right and that is what Syl and Kaladin care about, Klasin is not aSkybreaker and Syl is not a Highspren, so neither of them will care that a crime was committed. All they will care about is that the death os Sadeas was necessary and now many lives will be saved from it.

I really don't see Kaladin 'being ok' with it.  The greater good and saving the most lives is an argument in favor of the Diagram, which is diametrically opposed in methods to Windrunners.  That is, to a Windrunner there are some actions that are never okay, eg, assassination.  The arguments you make in favor of Sadeas's death mirror almost exactly the arguments Kaladin was using to convince himself that Elhokar was deserving of death.  I agree with Aleksiel's take, that Kaladin will see it as wrong and be silently judgmental, but not openly stand against Adolin.

 

I also think that, hopefully, Elhokar will have learned a little bit about being a leader after having spent time with Lopen's family.  Or maybe just learned about people (which is an excellent first step in learning to be a leader.)  Dalinar should not be the one effectively leading or controlling Alethkar anymore.  That time is done, and he has far more important things to worry about, like the fate of the world.  If he keeps getting dragged into local politics, then it will be a disaster.

 

Honestly, I think the largest problem that Adolin is going to have is going to occur directly because he tried to hide his involvement in the murder.  If he had, instead, concocted some story and stuck to it, (for instance, the two of them met, exchanged words, and then decided to move up the date of their duel, but without Shards or witnesses) then people would know what had happened--but quietly let it go.  The same way that they quietly let go of the way that Sadeas was directly responsible for the deaths of thousands, and the attempted wrongful deaths of a Highprince and his heir.  Hiding and skulking in shadows isn't the way of the Alethi warrior, and so the

Alethi will judge Adolin harshly for his actions.

[Guest]

Nice discussion!

 

Alright, I won't quote because there is just so much to discuss... My take.

 

1) Elhokar has the right to pardon Adolin, but will he? This is a tricky question. Dalinar has been enforcing the Way of Kings on all highprinces. He treats them as children quarreling, which is not too far from the truth. No matter what his second oath says, Dalinar cannot excuse Adolin's actions. He cannot put his son above the law and neither can Elhokar. It would set horrible precedent. Worst, I believe knowing the culprit is his own son will set Dalinar to react even more harshly then he would have had the culprit been anyone else. We know Dalinar has excused many bad actions/crimes from Elhokar out of love, but I doubt he will do the same for Adolin. He is his son, he has always put a very high standard on him, he has always gone harder on him than on any others. Once he finds out, Dalinar will go ballistic. He may enforce a harsher than usual punishment to assert his authority, to show everyone else he is serious about his new morality. However, I do believe execution is out of the way: nobody on the Kohlin's side would go for that. Exile, disinheritance, lost of shards are most likely.

 

Edit: I have thought of Dalinar sending Adolin back to Kohlinar, which would be nice as he could meet up with Kal. It could play out this way, but I doubt Ialai and her allies will let it go this easily. If Adolin is send into exile, my two cents are he won't be able to leave unharmed: his enemies will wrap around him like sharks on a fish. Many people have been wanting to get a bite at Adolin and the second his is left unprotected and shardless: he'll get into serious trouble. I guess Brandon could play it this way. However, I think number 6) is more likely to happen as it would allow Adolin to actually leave.

 

2) I do not think Kal would disapproved, on the contrary. Kal has been juggling as to whether kill or not kill Amaram throughout the whole book. I believe Kal is very well placed to understand the dilemma Adolin was facing. He would think murdering Sadeas was a bad choice, but he would not judge Adolin for it as he nearly did the same. The Elhokar subplot is an entirely different matter as Elhokar is not directly responsible for the murder of Moash's parents. He is, by pure incompetence, not by malice, much unlike Sadeas. Elhokar is trying to be a good king whereas Sadeas is trying to undermine the Kohlin as best as he can. I believe the two events are quite different. Murdering Elhokar was pure revenge, murdering Sadeas was justice, sort of.

 

3) I do not know how Shallan would react. Arguments on both side are quite strong. I think it could go either way. However, I do see Adolin falling into a self-depreciation phase and breaking up with Shallan thinking she would not want to be with him as he is not "good enough" anymore. I do see those many things happening all at once: the truth about the murder coming out, things going awry with Shallan, everyone is a Radiant, etc. I see Adolin  being completely overwhelmed by everything, not knowing who to talk to or how to react. As a result, I see him taking bad decisions above bad decisions, isolating himself from his family, being very reckless on the battle field and slowly crushing down baldy on the inside while nobody takes notice until he breaks down completely. This is how I see it being played.

 

4) I am not sure about Renarin. I think Renarin and Adloin will move apart from each other in the next book. Renarin did not telle Adolin about his surgebinding, He shuts his brother and best friend away. Knowing Adolin current state of mind after WoR, he may not react well to that. He may feel left out, hurt even, we know friendship is important to him and he has little friends as it is. Renarin will think Adolin is disapproving or judging him for his powers. He may even go into a tantrum about Adolin not being fair as he, Renarin, has always supported Adolin... I do not see him solving the murder using his Radiant powers as I believe his visions are more like prophecies then about specific day-to-day events. However, I do see him puzzling what the heck is going with Adolin, but too late.

 

5) Overall, I believe the most likely out-come is Adolin auto-banishing his own self. Once he gets to the bottom of his barrow, he will see it as the only option. The one option that would preserved his father's authority, the one option that would serve the code, the one option that is "right". Throughout both books, Adolin has consistently taken actions for what he believed was right at the detriment of his own security. This is just another one of these. In fact, if Adolin is to become KR, I see him swearing an oath such as: "I will stand for what is right, no matter the cost to myself". I would fit, I think. He'll the go on his own little "journey" across the world, the "destination" being when he finally comes home, at last, probably to stand for someone in need in his family/Shallan.

Edited June 22, 2014 by maxal

[Guest]

Honestly, I think the largest problem that Adolin is going to have is going to occur directly because he tried to hide his involvement in the murder.  If he had, instead, concocted some story and stuck to it, (for instance, the two of them met, exchanged words, and then decided to move up the date of their duel, but without Shards or witnesses) then people would know what had happened--but quietly let it go.  The same way that they quietly let go of the way that Sadeas was directly responsible for the deaths of thousands, and the attempted wrongful deaths of a Highprince and his heir.  Hiding and skulking in shadows isn't the way of the Alethi warrior, and so the

Alethi will judge Adolin harshly for his actions.

 

He panicked. He was in shock over what he did. I do not think hiding the evidence was a conscious self-reflected decision on Adolin's part. Although I agree it looks bad for him. He may also go into permanent panic mode and keep with it until it blows. I agree it is not the Alethi way, but the Alethi way is highly hypocritical: ff you are to murder someone, you should at least have the courage to look at him in the eyes and do it yourself. He may not have planed it, but it was braver for Adolin to kill Sadeas this way, then to send assassins like Jasnah does. Quite inline with the Dustbringers I think

[Sylphrena-Stormborn she/her]

Adolin may get banished from the shattered plqins and sent back home as a compromise between Dalinar and the other highprinces.However there were mentions of some major corruption of some sort going on there? So we could probaby see the political situation in the capital.

[Aleksiel]

its still not letting me quote, but anyways, I really doubt Kaladin will have any problem with what Adolin did because, regardless of the fact that Adolin committed a crime, it was what was right and that is what Syl and Kaladin care about, Klasin is not aSkybreaker and Syl is not a Highspren, so neither of them will care that a crime was committed. All they will care about is that the death os Sadeas was necessary and now many lives will be saved from it.

 

Just because Kal will understand why Adolin did it, doesn't mean he'll agree with it. kaellok said it very well - killing one to save many sounds like Vargo's reasoning on the Diagram and is how Kal tried to convince himself to participate in Elhokar's assassination. Now, there are some Orders who'd agree with Adolin like the Willshapers (WoB), may be Elsecallers (Jasnah has done worse) and probably some others. But not the Windrunners. Why? Because killing is wrong. Kaladin still struggles with what he has done, still doesn't know if one can kill to protect, he felt remorse for killing Parshendi and needed Syl's consolation. Kaladin has killed to protect, but what Adolin did can't be called protection, not in the same way Kaladin did it.

 

I do not expect Kal to judge Adolin, because Windrunners aren't judges.  I just don't think that was what a Windrunner would do or stand for. Windrunners are about doing what's right and Kal's thoughts and actions in WoR made it clear assassination and killing for the greater good aren't part of the Windrunners' philosophy.

 

 

 

I see him swearing an oath such as: "I will stand for what is right, no matter the cost to myself". 

 

 

If there was such an Oath, then T would be a Radiant 

Edited June 22, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Guest]

Just because Kal will understand why Adolin did it, doesn't mean he'll agree with it. kaellok said it very well - killing one to save many sounds like Vargo's reasoning on the Diagram and is how Kal tried to convince himself to participate in Elhokar's assassination. Now, there are some Orders who'd agree with Adolin like the Willshapers (WoB), may be Elsecallers (Jasnah has done worse) and probably some others. But not the Windrunners. Why? Because killing is wrong. Kaladin still struggles with what he has done, still doesn't know if one can kill to protect, he felt remorse for killing Parshendi and needed Syl's consolation. Kaladin has killed to protect, but what Adolin did can't be called protection, not in the same way Kaladin did it.

 

I do not expect Kal to judge Adolin, because Windrunners aren't judges.  I just don't think that was what a Windrunner would do or stand for. Windrunners are about doing what's right and Kal's thoughts and actions in WoR made it clear assassination and killing for the greater good aren't part of the Windrunners' philosophy.

 

 

it is unfair to compare the plot to assassinate Elhokar to the murder of Sadeas. Elhokar did not voluntary kill people out of cold blood: he caused the death of people out of pure ignorance/incompetence. It is why, in the end, Kal decides to protect him, because, just like Tien, Elhokar is just trying and thus cannot be blamed for failing. Sadeas (or Amaram for that matter) is an entirely different matter. The man is plain evil and he has willingly been plotting to destroy the Kohlins. He has knowingly caused the death of thousand of people and yet still planned to kill some more. The fact that Sadeas escapes justice is an awful thing, a loop-hole within the twisted Alethi laws. It is unjust such a man can be allowed to walk free while everyone knows him to be guilty.

 

Murdering Elhokar was all about vengence. Murdering Sadeas was about doing what is right and Adolin has always been about doing the "right thing". He was just lucky the "right thing" so far has not placed him into trouble.

 

I believe Kal will be able to see the distinction. His oath are to protect people and killing Sadeas does protect people, in a way. However, it is true murder cannot be condone by the Windfinders, but I believe Kal will see the necessity of this. He may very well stand behind Adolin and get his back once more. As a Radiant bond to a honor spren, his hands are tied in such matters, but it does not mean he cannot approve.

 

You cannot compare Mr T and Adolin! Mr T launches plagues and creates civil wars leaving countries in a state of utter destruction because of his Diagram... Adolin murdered a convicted criminal his country's laws allowed to unjustly walk free. Besides, by my oath, I meant coast to one-self, ie jump in front of a chasmfield to save a loved one, murder a despot to protect those you love, doing the right thing, no matter if you may end up killing yourself in the process, in a way, true bravery.

 

Edit: Mr T is willing to murder thousand of innocents to achieve his goal. I do not think Adolin, the boy who thinks hunting is a honor-less butchery, has the stomach to do the same. We cannot compare both.

Edited June 22, 2014 by maxal

[Aleksiel]

....

 

Just because they are different doesn't mean there aren't parallels. Killing Sadeas wasn't serving justice and it wasn't right in the terms of the Windrunners' philosophy, simple as that. 

 

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here since you think Kaladin will think what Adolin did was bad, but won't judge him for it, which is what I too said in a previous post, so we actually agree on this.

[Guest]

Just because they are different doesn't mean there aren't parallels. Killing Sadeas wasn't serving justice and it wasn't right in the terms of the Windrunners' philosophy, simple as that. 

 

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here since you think Kaladin will think what Adolin did was bad, but won't judge him for it, which is what I too said in a previous post, so we actually agree on this.

 

I am not sure how the Windrunners philosophy would apply in this specific case.... Both murders are so different. Kaladin's second oath is "I will protect those I hate as long as it is right". There is word right in there. It is right to protect Sadeas? Is it right to protect a criminal who managed to escape due to weak laws? Elhokar is not a criminal, a whiny incompetent, yes, but not a criminal. Sadeas is one. Period. Alethki sense of justice is horribly twisted. I thus fail to see how Kaladin would managed to react this badly upon learning Adolin's deeds. He may think, as we both say, it was a wrong way to deal with the issue that is Sadeas, but I certainly do not think the Windrunner's oaths oblige him to protect scumbags such as Sadeas...... I believe this is where our opinions diverge. I believe Kaladin does not have the liberty to deal with the Sadeas and the Amaram of this world, but I certainly do not think he would frown on Adolin's actions. He would not applaud, true, but I believe Kaladin's reaction will be among the most positive one we are bond to see in this particular matter.

 

Dalinar and co will react very badly and harshly, not Kaladin. Kaladin may very well be Adolin's only friend and ally thru the ordeal.

 

The only people I see cheering are probably all the darkeyes in Dalinar's camp and the entire bridge crews. It could cause a rift. Adolin is well liked/popular among the soldiers and they will see him murdering Sadeas as justice, finally. It may even boost his status among the common men and women. Such people do not care about the Game and the lighteyes politics, but they care about their loved ones being murdered for nothing and seeing the culprit go unpunished.

[Aleksiel]

I am not sure how the Windrunners philosophy would apply in this specific case.... Both murders are so different. Kaladin's second oath is "I will protect those I hate as long as it is right". There is word right in there. It is right to protect Sadeas? Is it right to protect a criminal who managed to escape due to weak laws? Elhokar is not a criminal, a whiny incompetent, yes, but not a criminal. Sadeas is one. Period. Alethki sense of justice is horribly twisted. I thus fail to see how Kaladin would managed to react this badly upon learning Adolin's deeds. He may think, as we both say, it was a wrong way to deal with the issue that is Sadeas, but I certainly do not think the Windrunner's oaths oblige him to protect scumbags such as Sadeas...... I believe this is where our opinions diverge. I believe Kaladin does not have the liberty to deal with the Sadeas and the Amaram of this world, but I certainly do not think he would frown on Adolin's actions. He would not applaud, true, but I believe Kaladin's reaction will be among the most positive one we are bond to see in this particular matter.

 

I don't think it will oblige Kal to protect Sadeas, but it will certainly stop him from doing what Adolin did. May be when Kal finally figures out for himself if one can kill to protect, we'll know for sure. My argument is more about how Adolin killed Sadeas, though I see I haven't really explained myself well. Killing someone without giving them a chance to defend themselves (like Adolin jumped unexpectedly on Sadeas) isn't a fair fight and thus not a Windrunners method. I don't see Kal approving of anything unWindrunner-ish, though I don't expect him to be judgmental or treat Adolin differently.

[Guest]

I don't think it will oblige Kal to protect Sadeas, but it will certainly stop him from doing what Adolin did. May be when Kal finally figures out for himself if one can kill to protect, we'll know for sure. My argument is more about how Adolin killed Sadeas, though I see I haven't really explained myself well. Killing someone without giving them a chance to defend themselves (like Adolin jumped unexpectedly on Sadeas) isn't a fair fight and thus not a Windrunners method. I don't see Kal approving of anything unWindrunner-ish, though I don't expect him to be judgmental or treat Adolin differently.

 

I agree they would disagree on the way it was handled. It would have been horribly wrong for Kaladin to deal with Sadeas this way, but not for Adolin. I disagree it was an uneven fight. Adolin was hurt: his right wrist was broken, he was tossed and thrust to the ground by Szeth just a few days ago, he hurt his head in the process (Remember all the comments on how much his head hurt afterwards? How dizzy he was? It was the second time, in a short span of time where he hurts his head: look at professional sports players, how they get taken out of the game for weeks after being hit on the head? The more hit you get, the worst it becomes.) and he was probably still black and blue all over. Sadeas is not a weakling either. He was older, but he was a good fighter and certainly not defenseless.

 

I think the fight was fair. It was one on one, they both had shardblades (which they both decided not to uses). Sadeas is an experienced fighter, older and probably weaker/slower. Adolin may be younger and stronger, but he was not at the top of his game.

 

Besides, Adolin is all about fairness in fights. He despises hunting because he thinks it is honorless, he thinks it is just butchery. He couldn't stomach the massacre of the Parshendi singers because they couldn't fight back, because it was nothing more than a blood bath. He couldn't understand the reasons behind the four on one duel because he thinks there no honor in beating a foe 4 against 1. I just do not see him entering a fight, even in the head of the moment, that would be totally unfair.

[Aleksiel]

...

 

I don't see it as a fair fight to unexpectedly jump on someone who's talking to you regardless of how hurt you were, but I won't argue about it.

 

The lack of Shardblades was a surprice to me. I can accept that Adolin wasn't thinking clearly (and thank the Almighty for that, at least noone will suspect a Shardbearer now). But how and why didn't Sadeas summon his Blade? That's the ultimate defense when you're being over-powered. Did he forget he had one? 

Edited June 22, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Guest]

I don't see it as a fair fight to unexpectedly jump on someone who's talking to you regardless of how hurt you were, but I won't argue about it.

 

The lack of Shardblades was a surprice to me. I can accept that Adolin wasn't thinking clearly (and thank the Almighty for that, at least noone will suspect a Shardbearer now). But how and why didn't Sadeas summon his Blade? That's the ultimate defense when you're being over-powered. Did he forget he had one? 

 

Well he jumped on him, true, but he was "weaponless". It is not like if his summoned his shardblade and plunged it into an unprepared Sadeas.... He could have done this had he really been wanting to kill Sadeas.  It is only once they tasseled on the ground for a while that Adolin took his knife out. As for unexpected, it leaves me to wonder how long Sadeas thought he could taunt Adolin in such way before he actually did something brash. He did comment on this at some point, so I dunno. I agree the "jumping on someone without any prior warning" is not a good way to start an even fight, but afterwards, the odds were quite the same, which is why I call an "even fight". Although I agree, a true fair fight would have been a duel where both opponents are prepared, so I can see how it could be argued differently.

 

I have wondered about the shardblades as well. Adolin mentioned they would have been pretty much useless in such close quarters. However, when someone if trying to knife you, it does not make sense to leave out your main weapon. Maybe Sadeas didn't think Adolin would go this far?

 

The whole outcome of the fight seems to indicate Adolin was everything but thinking clearly. Had he really planed this out, he would have never done it this way. He would have asked Sadeas to fight him, here and there. He would have called for proper duel, which he did try. Had he really wanted to take out Sadeas in that tunnel. he would have taken out his knife before jumping on Sadeas or better summon his shardblade. He wouldn't just jump on him like a wildcat. As Brandon said it, he snapped. Something broke on the inside, his self-control disappeared, his rational thinking as well and for a moment, he was out of control. This is bad, it could mean many things. I still believe he did a good thing, a right thing, but not in a good way for he was not in a good mental state when he did so. I dunno what it means other than Adolin is going to break down sometime in the next book.

[Aleksiel]

...

 

I agree Adolin wasn't in his best state of mind. Normally I would have guessed that in such a situation he'd go for the weapon he's most familiar with preciously because he's not thinking clearly, but he went for his knife instead of Blade.

 

I don't think Sadeas didn't summon his Blade because he didn't think Adolin would go that far. I mean, Adolin started to choke him and when they fell on the gound Adolin declared he wasn't as good as Dalinar thought him to be, then reached for his side knife and stabbed Sadeas in the eye. Adolin... uh, declared his intentions pretty clearly and Sadeas had enough time to summon his Blade. Sadeas had been a professional soldier as long as Dalinar. How could he forget his best weapon when his life was in danger? It just felt that the only reason was it was convenient for the plot. I'm not satisfied with that, honestly. 

[Guest]

I agree Adolin wasn't in his best state of mind. Normally I would have guessed that in such a situation he'd go for the weapon he's most familiar with preciously because he's not thinking clearly, but he went for his knife instead of Blade.

 

I don't think Sadeas didn't summon his Blade because he didn't think Adolin would go that far. I mean, Adolin started to choke him and when they fell on the gound Adolin declared he wasn't as good as Dalinar thought him to be, then reached for his side knife and stabbed Sadeas in the eye. Adolin... uh, declared his intentions pretty clearly and Sadeas had enough time to summon his Blade. Sadeas had been a professional soldier as long as Dalinar. How could he forget his best weapon when his life was in danger? It just felt that the only reason was it was convenient for the plot. I'm not satisfied with that, honestly. 

 

I have to agree with you on this one. It is strange Sadeas refused to summon his weapon or maybe he tried to but 10 heartbeats was too long? I mean, fights can go out fast.... As for Adolin, he did say in his POV the thought of summoning his blade did not even cross his mind as he claimed it would have been useless in such close space. He did say Sadeas knew that as well. However, I do agree with you it is strange. I would have certainly reached for my blade had I been Sadeas.