Dalinar, Sadeas's murder and public opinion

[Guest]

Continuing with my previous line of thought, I actualy would prefer that if Adolin got exiled and eventualy found a new life for himself, he wasn't forced to reconcile with his father. Any reconciliation and reunion should happen only because both wish it, after the action. It annoys me when all important character development happens because of some immediate danger forcing it(AKA:"You must find the words, Kaladin")

 

Interesting idea. Except it has been stated Dalinar only managed to learn lessons through hardships.. I thus think losing his son will make him move forward... and I am all for a very teary father/son reunion       I am a sucker for those and I want it to be Dalinar/Adolin mostly because Adolin still has the little boy watching his father with awe eyes in him... I don't want that boy to die 

[DreamEternal]

Interesting idea. Except it has been stated Dalinar only managed to learn lessons through hardships.. I thus think losing his son will make him move forward... and I am all for a very teary father/son reunion I am a sucker for those and I want it to be Dalinar/Adolin mostly because Adolin still has the little boy watching his father with awe eyes in him... I don't want that boy to die

Interesting, because I think Dalinar has to relearn how to learn, or learn how to change even when he is not forced to. Slowly coming to regret having banished his son is going to help that.

Adolin, on the other side, needs to lose some of the little boy in him, always in awe if his father. He is already one of the few people capable of standing up to Dalinar, and whatever he becomes his father heir or takes another path, it will only do good to both him and Dalinar if he sees his father as his equal.

In my opinion, an ideal reunion after exile would have Dalinar welcoming his son, glad to see he is well but devastated by guilty, and Adolin convincing his father he did nothing wrong by banishing him, and that he found himself wiser, and perhaps happier, after all he went throught.

And I personaly like the idea of Adolin renouncing his place as a prince to live a simplier life, dedicated to helping others and giving them hope in a more personal way, since he never expressed any desire for power to change the world, visionary dream, wish of stabity or even thought much about the future of his princedom, but he does express great immediate concern for those beneath him, a strong sense of morality and does not realy care about acting like a member of the royal family.

Edited August 23, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Amanuensis he/him]

And I personaly like the idea of Adolin renouncing his place as a prince to live a simplier life, dedicated to helping others and giving them hope in a more personal way, since he never expressed any desire for power to change the world, visionary dream, wish of stabity or even thought much about the future of his princedom, but he does express great immediate concern for those beneath him, a strong sense of morality and does not realy care about acting like a member of the royal family.

 

This correlates pretty well with his Edgedancer-esque attributes. I think if he were exiled (but allowed) to keep his shards for protection, then it's very possible these events could lead to him reawkening his blade as well. Personally I would much rather see Adolin leave but continue to have his own POVs as frequently as in the current releases. Though WoR was great, I preferred how WoK had characters all over the place, allowing a wider variety of settings and consequently worldbuilding. I would be happy to see simultaneously occurring plotlines in Urithiru, Hearthstone, Kholinar, and wherever else Brandon decides.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Alvom

[Guest]

Interesting, because I think Dalinar has to relearn how to learn, or learn how to change even when he is not forced to. Slowly coming to regret having banished his son is going to help that.

 

I think Dalinar needs to learn to be more flexible, to be guiding instead of unforgiving. In other words, whatever means he uses, he needs to forgive his son for having broken the code he created for him. He needs to acknowledge the world is not white or black, but grey and that whereas Adolin did break the law, he did good, in his own way.

 

Somehow, I also think the Dalinar/Adolin relationship has an unhealthy component... as whereas the son is in complete awe of his father, the father seems to completely disregard his own child's safety.  Dalinar seems more concerned with Elhokar, Jasnah and Renarin's well being than Adolin. He seems to harbor a softer spot for them then for his eldest son... There is something here and I think Dalinar needs to lose his perception Adolin is a younger him. He is very strict with is eldest, but I think he needs to learn to be more... Loving? Carrying? Guiding?

 

He loves Adolin and I think he needs to remember it.

 

 

Adolin, on the other side, needs to lose some of the little boy in him, always in awe if his father. He is already one of the few people capable of standing up to Dalinar, and whatever he becomes his father heir or takes another path, it will only do good to both him and Dalinar if he sees his father as his equal.

 

Personally, I love the little boy in Adolin... It is one of the character traits that makes him so endearing... I sincerely wish Adolin will keep his inner child, even it fades a little, I still want to see him, because he is part of what Adolin is. I also think Adolin needs to learn he is the son and it is not his task to protect his father. I feel as if he had decided it was his duty to stand for his family and to die for them if need be. I think he needs to understand he is as important as Dalinar and his life is not for waste. How many quotes do we have of Adolin stating his father is the most important person in the whole universe? Adolin needs to lose some of that and Dalinar needs to stop letting his son behave this way. It is true their relationship has to evolve to a more egalitarian one, but somehow I do not wish for the child to be completely gone. 

 

I have a lot of theories concerning Adolin and many have to do with the past we are not going to get... Many things happened in his young life and whereas we do know (or guess) how it affected Renarin/Dalinar, we have no idea what it did to Adolin. There is something there, buried and I want to read about it.

 

I agree Adolin has to keep on standing up to his father, to voice his opinion and eventually, I do think he'll become the leader his father wants him to be. He has the capacity, he has the inner strength: it is just a matter of learning how to use it and whereas it does pass by losing some of his hero worship complex, I do not want to see all of it die.

 

 

In my opinion, an ideal reunion after exile would have Dalinar welcoming his son, glad to see he is well but devastated by guilty, and Adolin convincing his father he did nothing wrong by banishing him, and that he found himself wiser, and perhaps happier, after all he went throught.

 

I do not see this happening... I do not think Adolin will ever be able to absolve his own guilt until Dalinar openly forgives him. He will probably think Dalinar was right, but he will never be able to regain his position until his father becomes a father again. For me, a reunion after an exile would be a highly emotive moment, the kind Adolin does not deal well with.

 

However, I do not think Adolin would ever be happier while away from his loved ones. Never. This, I do not see. Being exiled, if it comes to that, would destroy him. Perhaps he may manage to care for a few random people, but his family.... this is what he has stand for for so long.. I do not see him losing that easily. He won't be happy exiled: broken, sad, heart-broken, but not happy.

 

I thus absolutely do not see happy, cheering Adolin coming back, hugging his father with a huge smile and stating how glad he is he was banished as it turned out just perfect.............. as if the ordeal has not affected him... No. I see Adolin understanding, but being heart-broken Sadeas's life was deemed more important than his. He won't be sorry he killed him, but he won't be able to forgive himself for the harm it brought to Dalinar unless Dalinar manages to forgive him. A huge part of him will disagree with his father's take on the matter and it will war with the other part of him who would understand. 

 

Adolin coming back would be reluctant, would think he should not be there, would think he needs to do his business and be gone as soon as possible... He may even call his father "Highprince" as opposed to "Father". Adolin coming back won't step into his previous position unless he has a strong incentive to do so... but whatever happens, Dalinar needs to forgive his son and this will be a highly emotion filled moment.

 

And I personaly like the idea of Adolin renouncing his place as a prince to live a simplier life, dedicated to helping others and giving them hope in a more personal way, since he never expressed any desire for power to change the world, visionary dream, wish of stabity or even thought much about the future of his princedom, but he does express great immediate concern for those beneath him, a strong sense of morality and does not realy care about acting like a member of the royal family.

 

It could happen... There is one speculative future for Adolin I have made where he does just that... but it is a sad one. He has renounced to his family, to everything he loved and cared in order to care for others. He finds some peace in it, some happiness even, but he is never fulfill... his heart yearns for his family, the one he lost. He is broken and he remains broken. This is a future where he does not become a Radiant and he never crosses Dalinar's path again. Quite sad indeed. 

 

I am not exactly sure how the Blade revival story could fit in any plot I have come up with, but I like the idea of Adolin being cared for by his family, for a change. It probably won't happen, but I love the idea Renarin, for instance, will finally figure out how to do something for his brother. I also love the idea Dalinar would open up and tell his son the truth about his past. 

 

It's kinda hard... all this speculation, but I am rather convinced Adolin if exiled, won't come back happy and unbroken.

 

 

This correlates pretty well with his Edgedancer-esque attributes. I think if he were exiled (but allowed) to keep his shards for protection, then it's very possible these events could lead to him reawkening his blade as well. Personally I would much rather see Adolin leave but continue to have his own POVs as frequently as in the current releases. Though WoR was great, I preferred how WoK had characters all over the place, allowing a wider variety of settings and consequently worldbuilding. I would be happy to see simultaneously occurring plotlines in Urithiru, Hearthstone, Kholinar, and wherever else Brandon decides.

 

I do not think Adolin would get banish with his Shards... He would have no means to carry his Plate, so forget about that. As for the Blade, I am convinced he would be asked to leave it behind.

 

I agree that whatever happens, I want Adolin to keep his POV. I am all in for any story line having him keep his POV and my father/son teary moment. I so want THIS. Sorry 

[Amanuensis he/him]

I do not think Adolin would get banish with his Shards... He would have no means to carry his Plate, so forget about that. As for the Blade, I am convinced he would be asked to leave it behind.

 

Considering how many shards Adolin won for his family during WoR, I don't think Dalinar would have any issue letting him take his blade with him at the very least, especially given his relationship with it. If someone attempted to take it from him, I could see him arguing vehemently and perhaps even disappearing (maybe with the help of Shallan and/or Kaladin) in the night. Besides, it's bonded to him, so the only way it could be taken is if he willingly gave it up or was executed, and I don't really foresee either of those things happening. I doubt it would come to this extreme, however. Adolin understands what he did and although it was an action of passion, I believe he is mature enough to accept responsibility. I could equally see Dalinar agreeing with the exile from Urithiru/the Warcamps, but also give him a task to fulfill in the process. Now that the conflict in the Shattered Plains has been significantly lessened, Dalinar is going to have to start turning is attention elsewhere in the world, and there's a lot going on / he can't be everywhere at once.

 

 

EDIT: Also, there's nothing saying he has to leave alone. Though he might be exiled, whose to say someone can't leave with them of their own accord? In that case he could have a squire to help with his armor (though I agree chances are he won't be able to go with that too) or even a small retinue.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Alvom Halbin

[Guest]

Considering how many shards Adolin won for his family during WoR, I don't think Dalinar would have any issue letting him take his blade with him at the very least, especially given his relationship with it. If someone attempted to take it from him, I could see him arguing vehemently and perhaps even disappearing (maybe with the help of Shallan and/or Kaladin) in the night. Besides, it's bonded to him, so the only way it could be taken is if he willingly gave it up or was executed, and I don't really foresee either of those things happening. I doubt it would come to this extreme, however. Adolin understands what he did and although it was an action of passion, I believe he is mature enough to accept responsibility. I could equally see Dalinar agreeing with the exile from Urithiru/the Warcamps, but also give him a task to fulfill in the process. Now that the conflict in the Shattered Plains has been significantly lessened, Dalinar is going to have to start turning is attention elsewhere in the world, and there's a lot going on / he can't be everywhere at once.

 

 

EDIT: Also, there's nothing saying he has to leave alone. Though he might be exiled, whose to say someone can't leave with them of their own accord? In that case he could have a squire to help with his armor (though I agree chances are he won't be able to go with that too) or even a small retinue.

 

Not impossible, but I still think he would be asked to give up his shards... If Dalinar asks, I do think Adolin would unbound his Blade, even if it breaks his heart to do so.

 

It is not impossible he would be banish with a mission or send away with guards and a retinue, but I have somehow more envision the plot line where he is dropped alone, in the middle of nowhere to fend for himself     

 

I guess it could go all the ways... I see many possible scenarios for Adolin: he is quite the wildcard at the moment which makes him very interesting. Try as much as we can: we don't know what is going to happen with him.

[DreamEternal]

Maxal, I did not imply he would be happier during his exile, just that he wpuld be happier after his exile and reunion with his family, because of all he learned. Maybe I value independence too much, maybe I don't know how it is to be attached to someone the way Adolin is to his family, but I do think that should he learn how to live away from them and don't succumb to despair, but find new strenght and purpose, it would make their reunion much more powerful. I do not see Adolin coming back from exile laughing, but I want to see him coming back with newfound confidence, neither the young duelist so eager to help his father, nor the furious man who killed Sadeas in the dark. Yes, Adolin would be broken by being forced to part ways with his family, but perhaps he would have some consolation in knowing they were safe. And maybe after recovering from despair he could start to slowly rebuild, maybe even find people he can trust almost as much as his family, and when he or his father is ready, they could meet again. And this time, I feel Dalinar will be the one broken by guilt, and Adolin will be there to help him.

Edited August 24, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Guest]

Maxal, I did not imply he would be happier during his exile, just that he wpuld be happier after his exile and reunion with his family, because of all he learned. Maybe I value independence too much, maybe I don't know how it is to be attached to someone the way Adolin is to his family, but I do think that should he learn how to live away from them and don't succumb to despair, but find new strenght and purpose, it would make their reunion much more powerful.

 

I understand where you are coming from. It is sometimes hard to picture how characters who widely differ from ourselves would behave in a given situation. However, I do think Adolin is not someone to value independance above all, quite the contrary. He seems quite content to remain cloistered within his family warm cocoon. He is also pictured as someone who values stability and he does get distressed when things fall out of their usual routine.

For instance, we have already established Adolin is a very emotional young man who's response to new unpredictable situations tends to be emotional as opposed to rational. That being said, we have seen three kind of spontaneous reaction from Adolin in front of various events:

1) When the event is one he feels he has no control over and limited power to change (Dalinar's visions, being named Highprince, the countdown, the glyphs on the wall, highstorms, the Assassin in White, Radiants, Urithiru), his reaction always is one of stress, nervousness and perhaps some anxiety.

2) When the event is one he feels he could act on, but it prevented to do so by laws or rules (everything pertaining Sadeas, insults to his father), his reaction is one of anger.

3) When the event is one he can act on, he knows what to do and has the latitude to do so (dueling, war, meeting Eshonai), his reaction is completely emotionless: there we see rational, thoughtful and cold-headed Adolin.

My point is, his reaction in front of events he can't control and has little power to change always is distressful. In other words, Adolin does not like change (and it fits brilliantly with is MBTI personality type). Towards the end of the book, his entire being converges to a state of complete unease at seeing the world he knows change towards something he: 1) do not understand, 2) do not control, 3) is powerless to change.

So, based on all this, I'd say Adolin wouldn't rejoiced in finding a new independence, as Shallan did. He would be seriously distressed at being thrown out of the world he knows, from the people he loves. It is quite probable he would try to built it back, with other people, but it would never close-out the wound he received by being ejected from everything he knew. His heart would yearn to go back to those he loves and whatever happiness he may find out there will always be tainted by this.

 

 

I do not see Adolin coming back from exile laughing, but I want to see him coming back with newfound confidence, neither the young duelist so eager to help his father, nor the furious man who killed Sadeas in the dark. 

 

The eager young duelist and furious man are simply the products of Adolin emotive side. Eager is what he feels when he is helping his father, when he is doing his part, when he is fulfilling what he believes has to be his purpose. As for anger, well, he will always react with anger towards situations he can't control and he can't act on. It will always be a part of him. This, never ever goes away, but with the years, it's probable he'll learn how to deal with it better. However, this is the work of a lifetime, not something he'll overcome within a few months, but with the decades, he'll get sufficient experience to stop being so distressed over new situations and enough to also temper himself down, much like Dalinar.

 

In other words, Adolin won't stop being sensitive and emotionally driven. He will always struggle to control himself, to keep his emotions reign in and to prevent himself from acting too brashly when they kick in. This is part of who he is in the same way depression is part of Kaladin's. Upon being exiled, he will most likely be overcome by many strong negative emotions and going through those will be extremely hard. Shallan, Kaladin, Dalinar, Renarin, Jasnah all required years and years and years of work to deal with their respective issues, why is it Adolin would sort through himself within a few weeks/months? He won't. He'll struggle immensely.

As for his confidence level, I do not think exile would do much for it... Adolin is not someone who has been trying to prove himself, to prove he can exist on his own: he won't find any pride in that, but he'll find pride and making Dalinar proud of him again. So confidence wise, far from his family, I see it remaining static: confident when in his element, non-confident when in the unknown.

 

Yes, Adolin would be broken by being forced to part ways with his family, but perhaps he would have some consolation in knowing they were safe. 

 

He is more likely to angst over what threat they are facing without him to protect them... Why would they suddenly be safe?

 

And maybe after recovering from despair he could start to slowly rebuild, maybe even find people he can trust almost as much as his family, and when he or his father is ready, they could meet again. And this time, I feel Dalinar will be the one broken by guilt, and Adolin will be there to help him.

 

Dalinar is a parent and as a parent, when one of your children goes bad, your first impulse is always to blame yourself. Dalinar won't feel guilty he punished Adolin, he will feel guilty he has failed at being a father and in order to feel right about this, he will need to be a father again to his misguided son. Dalinar also is much more resistant then Adolin... I doubt he'd break over this.

However, once his anger vanishes, Dalinar's next impulse may very well be to try to locate and bring back his son. The instinct to protect one's children, even when they have grown into adults, is very very strong. Dalinar has also sworn to unite and not divide: it is impossible he will sit down, reflect on his son's banishment and simply wait the boy magically finds in him the strength to come back on his own, because chances are he won't. He was banished, exiled, why would this situation change? His father was right to act this way, why would he change his mind? I doubt Adolin would readily come back, not after many, many, many years and even then. As long as he does not get forgiveness from Dalinar, thoughts over the situation would bring him pain, sadness, despair. Either he'll block them all or he'll plunge furthermore.

I thus do not see Dalinar breaking further down over the ordeal: if anything, he'll find another oath relating to being guiding, to giving some latitude or something along those lines. We should not forget the hardship is on Adolin's shoulders, not Dalinar. Adolin is the one who'll suffer the most through it. I thus don't see him coming back, reforged and ready to support his father... I see it the other way around. Any reconciliation must come from Dalinar: he is the one who broke it, he is the parent, he has to fix it.

 

Adolin won't reforge himself this easily and this quickly: none of them did. If anything, the process will kick-start when he and Dalinar make peace.

As for Dalinar, well, when your runaway rebellious child finally comes back home, you hug him thigh, you tell him you love him and you promise you'll make everything all right. This is how a parent absolves his guilt: by being a parent... again and trying to fix the broken pieces. When a child runs away, it is terrible for the parent, but the one suffering is the child.

All in all, Adolin is the one who need help in all this, not Dalinar.

[DreamEternal]

Maxal, thank you for your great and well thought reply. I agree with most of what you said, but I just wanted to clear up some possible misunderstandings:

First, I don't think Adolin will be generaly happy when away from his family, or that he will let it go and forget his exile, I just think learning to not let change and separation destroy him will be an important part of his journey.

Second, yes, I believe Dalinar will need the most conforting. The impacts of exile on Adolin will be immediate, he will mourn the loss of all he loved, he will blame himself, he will be broken and he will never fully heal. But Dalinar won't be there to help him throught the worst of it, he will need help from someone else or to find hidden strenght inside himself so he won't be instantly destroyed in a maybe unreversible way.

Dalinar, on the other side, is able to keep a cool head and a stony heart at first. But then, he mulls thinks over, reconsiders them. He holds on to grudges and debts. He still worshiped his brother enough to keep him from Navani, and told her he would never banish the guilt. He must enforce his honor on all around him, because he is still guilty from what he did before he found it. He feels guilty about being a tyrant, when the more immediate threat of the end of all things forced him to. He is the one who will cry the most when Adolin comes, not because his wounds were deeper, but because they opened later and didn't have time to heal.

[Guest]

Maxal, thank you for your great and well thought reply. I agree with most of what you said, but I just wanted to clear up some possible misunderstandings:

 

Thanks  I think with this last post we are pretty much in close agreement.

 

 

First, I don't think Adolin will be generaly happy when away from his family, or that he will let it go and forget his exile, I just think learning to not let change and separation destroy him will be an important part of his journey.

 

Learning how to deal with change will be part of his journey, whether he is exiled or not. The exile may be a more drastic experience which would mirror Dalinar's past needs to have strong events shape his future. Already, he has set foot into a world he does not know nor understand and prior to killing good old Sadeas, he was distressed about it.

 

Even without the murder, it would be easy for him to spiral downward. He has more than enough on his plate to crack down.

 

It is not impossible Adolin would later reflect back on his exile and think it was for the best, but I believe this reflection won't happen until many more years. Not immediately. Immediately, I think he'd still struggle to keep himself together while trying to find a path in this new world.

 

 

Second, yes, I believe Dalinar will need the most conforting. The impacts of exile on Adolin will be immediate, he will mourn the loss of all he loved, he will blame himself, he will be broken and he will never fully heal. But Dalinar won't be there to help him throught the worst of it, he will need help from someone else or to find hidden strenght inside himself so he won't be instantly destroyed in a maybe unreversible way.

 

I have imagined Dalinar would mourn his lost son in the same way Navani is mourning her daughter: quietly. He'll probably find comfort in his other son, the one he has always had a soft spot for. As for Adolin, I do think Dalinar would go for him, eventually. Perhaps both father and son will go each other simultaneously  but I am quite sure part of Dalinar's growth is to forgive his son, accept him back into the family and embrace his role as a guide.

 

I don't think Adolin would destroyed himself in an irreparable way... that would be a rather boring story, but I do think he'll go down quite deep, especially since he won't have the luxury of having a spren to help him through the worst parts. It's probable he'll find help along the way... one of my speculative future has starving him stumble on a certain Lift in Azir.... I can definitely see the broken cast-away prince and the orphan teaming up to form an extended family of sorts... it would befit both characters, I think.

 

 

Dalinar, on the other side, is able to keep a cool head and a stony heart at first. But then, he mulls thinks over, reconsiders them. He holds on to grudges and debts. He still worshiped his brother enough to keep him from Navani, and told her he would never banish the guilt. He must enforce his honor on all around him, because he is still guilty from what he did before he found it. He feels guilty about being a tyrant, when the more immediate threat of the end of all things forced him to. He is the one who will cry the most when Adolin comes, not because his wounds were deeper, but because they opened later and didn't have time to heal.

 

I agree with this.

 

There is one other thing about parents with runaway rebellious children who finally come back home not too molested: they hug them, they say they love them, they promise to make things right and.... they often cry which usually bring tears out the child himself. Quite the tear jerkier but if we are to have one with the Kholins, it's got to be this one.

 

Also, I cannot imagine a deeper wound than losing a child, but it's Dalinar, he may be twisted into still thinking losing Galivar was worst... 

[Malim he/him]

One thing that I find interesting is how vague the WoB is on "ramifications".  While the discussion on social/legal ramifications is very interesting, I began to wonder if there are not darker ones as well.  This has lead me down a dark line of thought.  Here it is.

 

"It is the nature of the magic.  A broken soul has cracks into which something else can fit.  Surgebindings, the powers of creation themselves; they can brace a broken soul, but they can also widen its fissures."  WoR back dust jacket, my bolding.

 

I see the murder of Sadeas as the point where Adolin starts to break.  The fissures will only widen if Dalinar or Shallan, or even public opinion turns against him.  At the very least, the thought of the problems that this will cause may lead his own guilt into widening them.  This can lead down two paths.  Either the fissures will be filled with a Nahel bond, or something else.  The something else is what scares me.  Odium knows that surgebindings are returning.  He knows that the best way to bind him is to force a duel of champions.  Probably, then he is looking to create his own champions.  What would happen if Odium filled the cracks in Adolin's soul?

 

Personally, I believe he did this with Shallan's father.  In that case we all saw what it turned him into.  Could the "ramifications" of Adolin's action be that Odium can now get a hold of him too?  Instead of going down the path of Radiancy, could he instead be forced down the same dark hole as Shallan's father?  Personally, I really don't want to see this happen, but I fear that it could.