Dalinar, Sadeas's murder and public opinion

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

Upon becoming a shardbearer, you automatically become a lighteye of the fourth dahn. Adolin says so when he gives the shards to Moash.

 

As for the Amaram situation, Kal did NOT take the shardblade. He refused it. He therefore did not gain any status. He left it there, on the ground. He even refuse to pick it up. Based on this, it was not his to give out as it never belonged to him in the first place. He was entitled to own it, but he would not enforce it. His lost.

 

But the thought of touching that Blade sickened him. It represented everything he'd come to hate about the lighteyes, and it had just slaughtered men he loved dearly. He could not become a legend because of something like that. He looked at his reflection in the Blade's pitiless metal, then lowered his hand and turned away.

 

"It's yours, Coreb, " Kaladin said. "I give it to you".

"What?" Cored said from behind.

 

Ahead, Amaram's honor guard had finally returned, apprehensively appearing at the top of the small hollow, looking ashamed.

 

"What are you doing?" Amaram demanded as Kaladin pased him.

"What - Aren't you going to take the Blade?"

"I don't want it," Kaladin said softly. "I'm giving it to my men".

 

He never hold it. He was never his. He never gained any status. He naively thought it was his to give out. This is not how it works. This is not how army works. This passage leads me to think Amaram would have let Kaladin keep the blade, but the fact Kal rejected it was too tempting. Not to forget the fact he gave it to his man, it must have felt like an insult to someone like Amaram.

 

Amaram has good defense, I believe. I sincerely doubt he will be trialed for these events, no matter what Dalinar thinks.

 

 

He didn't have to take the Shards to own them. He killed the Shardbearer, he owns the Shards. Because Kal didn't pick them up, or take them right there does not give Amaram any right to it either way. 

[Guest]

I agree with almost everything here on Kaladin. However, Kal doesn't think everyone else upholds his moral, he thinks lighteyes have non at all. Also, I see no reason to give the Shards to Amaram. Even if he had done so, Amaram would have killed his men and enslave him with the same reasoning: 'You'd change your mind and I can't have that. Nobody will believe you gave the Shards away.' 

 

Well he does. When he started his journey, he thought nobody was more honorable than a lighteye. Even after Tien's death, he still though Amaram was a honorable man. He lost all faith in them after being made a slave.

 

I don't think Amaram would have enslaved Kaladin had he given him the shards. Why would he? Kal would have publicly declared to yield his shards to the mighty Amaram, just like Dalinar gave out shards to Elhokar. No need to kill him, really. Once given, you can't change your mind. Besides, Amaram would have had scribes take note of the event.

[Aleksiel]

Well he does. When he started his journey, he thought nobody was more honorable than a lighteye. Even after Tien's death, he still though Amaram was a honorable man. He lost all faith in them after being made a slave.

 

I don't think Amaram would have enslaved Kaladin had he given him the shards. Why would he? Kal would have publicly declared to yield his shards to the mighty Amaram, just like Dalinar gave out shards to Elhokar. No need to kill him, really. Once given, you can't change your mind. Besides, Amaram would have had scribes take note of the event.

 

Kaladin giving the Shards to Amaram willingly wouldn't have changed a thing Amaram did:

 

 

“You could have asked me for them! Storm you!”

“And when news got around camp?” Amaram said grimly. “That you’d killed the Shardbearer but I had the Shards? Nobody would believe that you’d given them up of your own free choice. Besides, son. You wouldn’t have let me keep them.” Amaram shook his head. “You’d have changed your mind. In a day or two, you’d have wanted the wealth and prestige—others would convince you of it. You’d have demanded that I return them to you. It took hours to decide, but Restares is right— this is what must be done. For the good of Alethkar.”

[Guest]

He didn't have to take the Shards to own them. He killed the Shardbearer, he owns the Shards. Because Kal didn't pick them up, or take them right there does not give Amaram any right to it either way. 

 

Killing a shardbearer does not make you one: he makes you entitled to own the blade of the decease. He never owned them, he owned a claim to them, but he lost it the second he walked away. Sure Amaram has to right to pick them up: he is the ranking officer. Shards always go to ranking officers. Given his position, he is in his right to expect the shards to go to him proving the soldier does not want them.

 

I still maintain, you cannot waste such valuable weapons on an untrained soldier. You cannot let a lowly squadleader make that decision. Since when does low ranked soldiers make the decision on who carries the most deadly weapon owned by the army? At best, he gets to make a recommendation. Being a hero gave Kal the privilege to raise his station and become a shardbearer himself, but it did not give him the right to bestow this privilege onto another man of his choosing.

 

Amaram is terribly wrong in his actions, but Kal was terribly out of place in his.

[Guest]

Kaladin giving the Shards to Amaram willingly wouldn't have changed a thing Amaram did:

 

Oh forgot about that one. Amaram is a scumbag, but Kal was still out of his place.

[kaellok he/him]

1.  Killing a shardbearer does not make you one: he makes you entitled to own the blade of the decease. He never owned them, he owned a claim to them, but he lost it the second he walked away. Sure Amaram has to right to pick them up: he is the ranking officer. Shards always go to ranking officers. Given his position, he is in his right to expect the shards to go to him proving the soldier does not want them.

 

2.  I still maintain, you cannot waste such valuable weapons on an untrained soldier. You cannot let a lowly squadleader make that decision. Since when does low ranked soldiers make the decision on who carries the most deadly weapon owned by the army? At best, he gets to make a recommendation. Being a hero gave Kal the privilege to raise his station and become a shardbearer himself, but it did not give him the right to bestow this privilege onto another man of his choosing.

 

Amaram is terribly wrong in his actions, but Kal was terribly out of place in his.

1.  To defeat a Shardbearer is to win their Shards.  That's what is 'known.'  Think of it this way.  A friend stops by Wendy's and buys two hamburgers, one for you and one for him.  When he comes by your house, he tries to give the one to you, but you're all, "Nah man, give it to Bob here.  I already ate, but he's hungry."  You're saying that that is wrong, and can't be done.  Which is ridiculous.  Think of it another way; your wealthy grandmother dies, and leaves you as sole inheritor to her vast fortune.  You actually don't have to take the money in most cases; you can donate it to charity, or to Bob, or Jane, or the drug dealer down the street if you wanted.  Possession is not required to determine if you have the right to give something away or not, only if you have a legal claim to it.  You agree that Kaladin had a claim to the Shards, and passed that claim to Coreb.  That's as legal and legit and right as it gets--only an inherently corrupt system would say that's not allowed.  Further, Adolin tries to give Kaladin a set of Shards, and Kaladin gives them to Moash instead.  Adolin's reaction is one of shock at the Shards being turned down because it's ridiculous to refuse such a vast wealth, not because it wasn't Kaladin's right to do so.  If you win a prize or are given a gift, there's very little others can say if you immediately give it away to someone else.

 

2.  Renarin is untrained and unskilled in swordsmanship and fighting or being a soldier at all.  Are you really arguing that it was a crime for Dalinar to give the Plate to Renarin?  No.  Because the Shards belonged to Dalinar, and so he has the legal right and responsibility to use them as he sees fit.  There's an entire set of Shards, Plate and Blade both, that are deliberately held separate and not used except in cases of a challenge against those with Shards.  How criminal is it for Elhokar to reserve those Shards, instead of putting them into use against foe that the Alethi are currently engaged in war against?  Again, it's not wrong--it's bad strategy, it might even be stupid, but it's not wrong.  And what, exactly, was Amaram doing with his Shards after he stole them from Kaladin?  Oh, right--fighting border skirmishes against other Alethi.  Definitely putting them to good use there!

 

The tradition of the Blades going to whoever defeats a Shardbearer is so strongly ingrained in the Alethi that it likely has a sanctity far more important than Vorinism to the soldiers.  How else are you going to get people motivated to face death incarnate on the battlefield?  There's a chance that your battlelines will last longer if the people involved think they have an honest chance of winning Shards of their own, should a miracle occur.  There is literally no reason at all to stand against a Shardbearer otherwise.  And this tradition isn't that whoever defeats them gets "dibs" on the Shards, but that the Shards belong to whoever defeats a Shardbearer.  If I give my cousin my car (which belongs to me) then it would belong to him; if he immediately sold it or gave it away or wrecked it, then there's not a damnation thing I could do about it--because at the moment it became his, he was free to do with it whatever he wanted.  And it becomes his when I sign the Title over to him, not after he's driven it for Five Days and Bonded with the car.

[Guest]

...

Gee you sound angry in this... but I'll respond anyway.

 

Kaladin did have a claim on those shards, but he lost it the minute he refuse to take them. You have to pick up the shard to claim it, you have to make it your own, to bond it. He left it there. He never claimed ownership, he never enforced it. If my grand-mother dies, as you say, I have the right to accept or to refuse the inheritance. Worst, I have to say so BEFORE I get to see what it contains. As long as I do not claim it, it is not mine to dispose. I believe the same applies to Kaladin. He never enforced his claim, worst he disregarded it. Based on that logic, the shards never really were his. He saw his price and he said "I won't claim it, I won't take it, but give to this man". To me it is the same as legally refusing the inheritance from my dead grand-mother, but at the same time granting it to my best friend. I can do this, but only after I accept the inheritance and what he implies. Kal never did this.

 

Worst giving them to a simple spearman must have been a great offense to the lighteyes. They must have seen it as a waster and they are not too far from the truth. Shards are highly powerful weapon, you just do not give them to anyone. The only exception made to that rule is the case were a common soldier gets to have the privilege to keep them providing he wins them. Kal refused that privilege, but I do not think it was his choice to decide who they go to afterwards.

 

I never said what Kaladin did was a crime. I said he acted out of his station and that he did not technically have the right to give them to some random man. He had the PRIVILEGE to carry them due to the fact he won them, but he certainly did not have the right to bestow them onto anyone. Now the Kohlins saw it differently and Kal acted somewhat smarter. He gave them to a man who has been training with Zahel, who was learning about swordmanship. Moash was not untrained. He was a bad choice due to his allegiances, but not due to his skills or potential. The Kohlins let Kaladin give them away, but Adolin could have very well so no thank you, you don't want them, I'll give them to someone else and he would have been in his right. He accepted Kal's gesture, but he certainly did not have to.

 

Moreover, yes I do believe Dalinar's plate is indeed wasted on Renarin. Renarin is not a soldier and he does not have the capacity to become one. After weeks of training, he still had trouble moving with his plate. Moash mastered more movements then him within a few days. Dalinar got emotional. He wanted to give his son a last chance, out of love. It is not a crime, but it is a waste of resources.

 

As for you car analogy, think of it this way: you give your car to your cousin, he says no thank you, but I may want to give to my friend. How are you going to react? You may say fine do what you want, but you may also say no I wanted you to have it, but if you won't then I'll find someone else. If your cousin becomes angry and claims but the car belongs to me, you said you give it to me, would he be right? NO. He didn't accept the gift, therefore it is not his to dispose unless YOU agree. Now, if your cousin accepts the gift only to give it away a day later, than it is a new matter entirely. That is the whole issue with Kal and shards. He refused his price, but them claimed ownership so he could give it to who he wants. The Kohlins accepted Kal's recommendation, but they certainly did not have to.

 

As this does not make what Amaram did right, but I still maintain Kal acted out of line on that one. It does not excuse murder, but I certainly think it will weight heavily on Amaram's process and I do think most Highprinces will see it this way, bar Dalinar.

[kaellok he/him]

Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as angry.  Maybe it's because I was at work, and I'm always annoyed when that happens haha

 

It's obvious that we fundamentally disagree at a very, very basic level on what it means to "win Shards" from a Shardbearer in a fight.  Kaladin won the right to do whatever in Damnation's name he wanted to do with them by doing the impossible.  To take that from him is to deny the foundation of the myth itself.  What you are saying implies that the Shards aren't really his until he's done bonding with them.  If that were really the case, then I would expect to see far more duels immediately after someone got Shards but before they were done bonding with them.  Or straight up assassinations for them.  That's what I would do if I were an Alethi lighteyes with money but no Shards, and I know that there are those are smarter and more ruthless than me that would see the exact same opportunity. 

 

The importance of the tradition for maintaining discipline and hope amongst the darkeye soldiers is immense.  If you were in the army and expected to use spears and arrows to try and bring down a modern day battle tank, would you?  Hell no! No one would!  What if you managed to get the 'killing blow' on it?  Well, at that point then maybe you would--still only a 1% chance of holding your line and maintaining discipline, but better than 0%.  And in the Alethi army, they rely on formation fighting, which means they rely on discipline.  Once troops start scattering, they all lose.

 

Maybe the lighteyes actually see it as you do; it's possible.  But I guarantee that the darkeyes wouldn't, because it doesn't make sense.  He killed a Shardbearer, by himself, and then couldn't give the Shards to his friend?  Once that becomes public knowledge, Amaram won't have an army anymore.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

You have to pick up the shard to claim it, you have to make it your own, to bond it.

 

 Sorry, but I disagree with you 100%. When a Shardbearer is killed, there's no formal ceremony where the Shards go to the Commanding Officer first to be awarded to the man who killed the bearer, it just belongs to the soldier. Amaram had no claim whatsoever. In fact, if that were the case, Amaram is doubly wrong, because then the shards should go above him either to Sadeas or to the king, since you're implying if it's refused it needs to go where it's useful. 

The situation kind of mirror's one my girlfriend was in a couple years ago. Her Biological father owed a lot child support. A few years ago, her mom died. Now like any decent human being, she didn't worry about going to file paperwork on it to put her claim on the child support because she was grieving for her mother. Neither did her brother or her step dad. Not too long later, she gets summoned into court for a child support hearing. Her biological father was passing a motion to dismiss the debt because the mom had died, and no one else had claimed the money. She had shown up to make her claim of course, but before the judge even asked for it, he put a stop to that line of thinking.

 

I can't remember exactly what it was he said, but it really seems to mirror this situation for me. It was something along he lines of: "Just because no one stepped up and has said "I want the money" does not give you any claim to it. These are your children that you're supposed to be supporting. Even if they don't press the claim, you'll pay back the money, and it will go to [some state fund that helps children I think.]"  Her dad has no claim on that money. My girlfriend could walk in there and say "I don't want this, I want it to go towards cancer research instead in honor of my mom," and there's nothing that her Dad could say about it, even if he were to pull an Amaram, in the eyes of the law, he has no claim whatsoever to that money, and Amaram similarly had no claim on the shards. 

 

Legality of Ownership just is, it doesn't need anyone's consent, other than to transfer that ownership. That consent was made to Coreb, not to Amaram. It shouldn't matter if Kaladin had picked up the sword and handed it to Coreb, or if he had had it packed in nice neat boxes to present to Coreb in a surprise party three months later. There's no fine print that says you have to pick up the sword to claim it. If you inherit the dog, and just say "I don't want it," you're still going to get charged with animal abuse if you don't feed it, no matter how many times you tell the court "I didn't pet the dog, I didn't want it, it's not mine."

Edited June 24, 2014 by EMTrevor

[Aleksiel]

While I agree with both kaellok and EMTrevor that Kaladin had the right to do as he saw fit with the Shards, I can also see where maxal is coming from.

 

Kaladin did leave the Shards on the battlefield and walked away. Is that the same as renouncing the right to the Shards? Amaram thought the Shards were still Kaladin's even after he left them on the battlefield. That, combined with Dalinar's reaction and Amaram's confession makes it fairly clear Amaram wasn't exploiting a loophole in the law, but indeed committed a crime.

[Guest]

Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as angry.  Maybe it's because I was at work, and I'm always annoyed when that happens haha

 

Hey it's OK    I'm on vacations. I must admit the bottle of wine my husband and I opened yesterday evening was quite good I may have over-reacted.

 

 

 

It's obvious that we fundamentally disagree at a very, very basic level on what it means to "win Shards" from a Shardbearer in a fight.  Kaladin won the right to do whatever in Damnation's name he wanted to do with them by doing the impossible.  To take that from him is to deny the foundation of the myth itself.  What you are saying implies that the Shards aren't really his until he's done bonding with them.  If that were really the case, then I would expect to see far more duels immediately after someone got Shards but before they were done bonding with them.  Or straight up assassinations for them.  That's what I would do if I were an Alethi lighteyes with money but no Shards, and I know that there are those are smarter and more ruthless than me that would see the exact same opportunity.

 

I agree we disagree. I don't think you have to finish bonding a blade to assert your claim on it, but I do think Kaladin specific reaction of disgusted rejection nullified whatever claim he may have. The best analogy I have would be the person who receives a gift, rejects it automatically, but insists on giving it to someone else.... Doesn't the gift giver have a say if the receiver blatantly rejects the said gift on the spot? Basically, if Kal had taken up the shards, give it some thoughts and THEN decide to give to his man, then he would have been in his right.

 

I agree it would probably not have changed the final outcome, but Kal would have acted in a more proper way. I must also add how shocking his entire reaction must have been to pretty much everyone. We know Kal rejects the blade because he feels uncomfortable around them due to forming bond with Syl, but the open disgust he has for these marvelous weapons is troubling. I get it, they are dead spren, but still.... if he could puke when he sees one, he would. Were I a shardbearer, I would seriously be offended by that attitude. Dalinar and Shallan did not react this badly to shards. Fine they hear them scream, but they don't just look at every shardbearer as if he were an atrocity like Kal does.

 

 

The importance of the tradition for maintaining discipline and hope amongst the darkeye soldiers is immense.  If you were in the army and expected to use spears and arrows to try and bring down a modern day battle tank, would you?  Hell no! No one would!  What if you managed to get the 'killing blow' on it?  Well, at that point then maybe you would--still only a 1% chance of holding your line and maintaining discipline, but better than 0%.  And in the Alethi army, they rely on formation fighting, which means they rely on discipline.  Once troops start scattering, they all lose.

 

I absolutely agree with you there. My whole point is Kaladin, how he reacted, how he literally spurned such a mighty gift.

 

 

Maybe the lighteyes actually see it as you do; it's possible.  But I guarantee that the darkeyes wouldn't, because it doesn't make sense.  He killed a Shardbearer, by himself, and then couldn't give the Shards to his friend?  Once that becomes public knowledge, Amaram won't have an army anymore.

 

Actually I think they would. Lighteyes politic is not about fairness, but about appearances. I agree the darkeyes would be offended. In fact, I am hoping the darkeyes rebellion will pick up and I also believe the unity Dalinar tries so much to have is not unity between the princedom, but unity between light and dark eyes.

 

 

 Sorry, but I disagree with you 100%. When a Shardbearer is killed, there's no formal ceremony where the Shards go to the Commanding Officer first to be awarded to the man who killed the bearer, it just belongs to the soldier. Amaram had no claim whatsoever. In fact, if that were the case, Amaram is doubly wrong, because then the shards should go above him either to Sadeas or to the king, since you're implying if it's refused it needs to go where it's useful. 

The situation kind of mirror's one my girlfriend was in a couple years ago. Her Biological father owed a lot child support. A few years ago, her mom died. Now like any decent human being, she didn't worry about going to file paperwork on it to put her claim on the child support because she was grieving for her mother. Neither did her brother or her step dad. Not too long later, she gets summoned into court for a child support hearing. Her biological father was passing a motion to dismiss the debt because the mom had died, and no one else had claimed the money. She had shown up to make her claim of course, but before the judge even asked for it, he put a stop to that line of thinking.

 

 

It is not about a ceremony and Kaladin certainly did not needed Amaram to give him the shards to own them, but he left them there. That is the whole issue I have with this story. I does not want them, he does not make any claim to them. In this specific case, yes I do believe the shards go to the army and the army shall decide what to do with them. And yes, the army was Sadeas himself or the King as Dalinar is trying to enforce.

 

Your example is not well chosen as one person cannot derogated itself from childcare support: it is against the law. However, in the case of an inheritance, laws are different. According to my country's civil law, you have to formally ACCEPT the inheritance before having a claim to do as you wish with it. If you refuse or if you fail to fill-out the proper paperwork in time, you lose it. The inheritance goes to the government to dispose as he sees fit. This is exactly why I think Kal refusal to acknowledge the shards on the ground deprived him of his right to do as he wished with them. I also believe many lighteyes will see it this way which is why I think Amaram will not suffer consequences for his actions.

 

 

Legality of Ownership just is, it doesn't need anyone's consent, other than to transfer that ownership. That consent was made to Coreb, not to Amaram. It shouldn't matter if Kaladin had picked up the sword and handed it to Coreb, or if he had had it packed in nice neat boxes to present to Coreb in a surprise party three months later. There's no fine print that says you have to pick up the sword to claim it. If you inherit the dog, and just say "I don't want it," you're still going to get charged with animal abuse if you don't feed it, no matter how many times you tell the court "I didn't pet the dog, I didn't want it, it's not mine."

 

Actually no. You do have to accept your claim and to fill-in the paperwork or well we do here, where I live. If my parents die, I am the legal heir, but if I do not assert my claim on the money, it won't go to me: it will go to friendly government. If my mother-in-law wants to give me her house, I have to assert my claim as well by signing the ownership papers: if I don't then the house does not really belong to me. You always have to assert your consent for pretty much everything, except perhaps child support. You made a child: you have to take your responsibilities and pay for it. If you refuse, then it becomes a court matter.

 

 

While I agree with both kaellok and EMTrevor that Kaladin had the right to do as he saw fit with the Shards, I can also see where maxal is coming from.

 

Kaladin did leave the Shards on the battlefield and walked away. Is that the same as renouncing the right to the Shards? Amaram thought the Shards were still Kaladin's even after he left them on the battlefield. That, combined with Dalinar's reaction and Amaram's confession makes it fairly clear Amaram wasn't exploiting a loophole in the law, but indeed committed a crime.

 

Exactly my point: he renounced them and by doing so he lost claim on them. Aramam's reaction is understandable as it IS foolish to reject such weapons, it has never been seen. Dalinar is a bad example: the man got more pious than the ardents themselves. He wants to be fair and he imposed this high morality code on himself and his family. I bet other lighteyes will see it differently. What Amaram did was immoral, but he could defend himself by proclaiming the said soldier refused to take the shards.

 

Bottom line is I seriously doubt we are going to see Amaram bite the dust because of the events in WoK. He'll sneak out of it. More-over since the Kohlins will have their hands full dealing with Adolin. As I said in another post, the two houses could strike a deal in order to protect Adolin.

[Aleksiel]

Exactly my point: he renounced them and by doing so he lost claim on them. Aramam's reaction is understandable as it IS foolish to reject such weapons, it has never been seen. Dalinar is a bad example: the man got more pious than the ardents themselves. He wants to be fair and he imposed this high morality code on himself and his family. I bet other lighteyes will see it differently. What Amaram did was immoral, but he could defend himself by proclaiming the said soldier refused to take the shards.

 

Bottom line is I seriously doubt we are going to see Amaram bite the dust because of the events in WoK. He'll sneak out of it. More-over since the Kohlins will have their hands full dealing with Adolin. As I said in another post, the two houses could strike a deal in order to protect Adolin.

 

 

Amaram admitted he stole the Shards and murdered his own men, thus leaving the Shards on the battlefield wasn't a loophole for him to exploit and get them legally; not physically taking the Shards didn't count as Kaladin losing the claim to them. Amaram didn't deny he committed a crime. 

 

While I agree leaving the Shards for good could be read as losing the claim, that wasn't the case even in Amaram's own eyes and I think he knows Alethi law better than us. 

[Guest]

Amaram admitted he stole the Shards and murdered his own men, thus leaving the Shards on the battlefield wasn't a loophole for him to exploit and get them legally; not physically taking the Shards didn't count as Kaladin losing the claim to them. Amaram didn't deny he committed a crime. 

 

While I agree leaving the Shards for good could be read as losing the claim, that wasn't the case even in Amaram's own eyes and I think he knows Alethi law better than us. 

 

Well Amaram is a strange character. He does work hard to maintain his reputation. I believe, at the time, he felt coming clear to Dalinar was the better option. He was surprised at Dalinar's accusations as he did not think Dalinar would pursue this.

 

The lighteyes are, in general, not very nice nor ethical people. They follow the rules only when people are watching, in the shadow, they do as they wish. Dalinar is an exception and his change is recent. As the Blackthorn, Sadeas mentioned how Dalinar could kill up to 10 innocent persons in one evening for no other reason they talked badly to him. Elhokar did his share of "crimes" by pronouncing bad decrees and sentencing innocent people on whims. Jasnah is not a nice person: she manages a team of assassins and she ruthlessly killed those thugs to demonstrate a point. We don't know about Navani, but I wouldn't be surprised if she had a skeleton or two in her cupboard. Adolin just jump the fence and committed a horrible crime. Renarin is the only Kohlin who appears crime free so far.

 

All this is why I think not many people will react as Dalinar did upon finding Amaram's deeds providing Dalinar do come forward with the info. He may not, to protect his son.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

 

 

Kaladin stepped forward, dazed, raising his hand toward the hilt of the Blade. He hesitated just an inch away from it.

. . . 

. . .

. . .He looked at his reflection in the Blade's pitiless metal, then lowered his hand and turned away. 

"It's yours Coreb." Kaladin said. "I give it to you." 

"What?" Coreb said from behind.

. . .

"What are you doing?" Amaram demanded as Kaladin passed him. "What-aren't you going to take the Blade?"

"I don't want it," Kaladin said softly. "I'm giving it to my men."

WoK Chapter 47 Stormblessings

 

 

Kaladin dictated exactly what was to be done with the Shards after they became his. Heck, Adolin locked himself and his newly acquires shards in a prison cell, but Kaladin isn't allowed to choose where the Shards he undoubtedly won go? This isn't like he walked away ignoring everyone and leaving the Shards there. He had his hand an inch from the Blade, which I would say indicates his ownership of them, whether or not he touched them, and then clearly states that he gives them to Coreb.  He doesn't renounce them, he dictates what's done with his property. 

 

We have different inheritance laws then here. There's a ton of services for finding out if you've got unclaimed inheritance just lying around. I really don't think the Child Support analogy is that different though. As for the Gift Giver analogy you're using, I  think it's off base as well. First, Kaladin didn't reject it right off, he gave it to Coreb right off. Second, Amaram didn't give the gift. Amaram is absoultely not involved in what should happen to those shards. The tradition exists entirely outside of the army command structure. But even if that was the case, as soon as you give a gift, it's given. Yes, it's rude to immediately give it away, but there's nothing you can do about it, because the gift is no longer yours. As soon as you try to take that gift back from whomever it was given to, that's theft. 

 

Everything that Kaladin does exists independantly of how improper or rude it is. It may be rude and improper, but it doesn't change the fact that Amaram murdered and stole to get those Shards. It doesn't matter how people perceive it, it does not, absolutely does not change the crimes that Amaram committed. If he goes to trial there's no avoiding that. Now he might be able to pull together enough alliances before the trial to ensure he never stands trial for it, but public opinion shouldn't change the outcome of the trial. 

Edited June 24, 2014 by EMTrevor

[Aleksiel]

 

All this is why I think not many people will react as Dalinar did upon finding Amaram's deeds providing Dalinar do come forward with the info. He may not, to protect his son.

 

I don't understand this last part. Which son is Dalinar protecting by not trialing Amaram and why? 

[Guest]

 

 

 

I don't understand this last part. Which son is Dalinar protecting by not trialing Amaram and why? 

 

 

Oh it is this theory of mine that Dalinar may let go of the charges against Amaram if the Sadeas let go of the charges against Adolin. I mentioned it a few times in this thread.

[Guest]

 

Everything that Kaladin does exists independantly of how improper or rude it is. It may be rude and improper, but it doesn't change the fact that Amaram murdered and stole to get those Shards. It doesn't matter how people perceive it, it does not, absolutely does not change the crimes that Amaram committed. If he goes to trial there's no avoiding that. Now he might be able to pull together enough alliances before the trial to ensure he never stands trial for it, but public opinion shouldn't change the outcome of the trial. 

 

But Alethki society is ALL about perceptions. They are highly hypocrites when it comes to lawful matters. You can kill, you can steal, you can do whatever you want as long as you are not seen holding the knife. I never said Kaladin behavior excuses Amaram's actions. I am saying Amaram will be able to built himself a defense by working around that fact. He will use Kaladin inappropriate behavior against him. He will mention the man discarded the shards. He will claim the shards should go to trained soldier and not lowly darkeyes. He will use the Moash case, endorse by the very same Kaladin, to validate his point. He will defend himself and he may very well win!

 

What Kaladin did is not technically included within any jurisdiction. Darkeyes are not supposed to win shards, they are supposed to dream of doing it on the basis it happened 2 or 3 times over the last thousand of years, but they are not supposed to. Where does it say Kal even had the right to disposed on those shards as he wished? As I said, the law of property was not properly enforced by Kaladin. What he did falls outside the law. It never happened and when something never happened, then the jury has to decide how to deal with it.

 

We must not forget that Kaladin is a DARKEYE. He does not have the same rights as PRINCE Adolin. Adolin can do whatever he wants most of the time on the basis of his rank.

 

The gift analogy is a good one, I think. I voice my desire to give something very valuable to a friend and that friend respond by not wanting it, but desiring to instead give to someone else. I have not given the gift yet. I can still change my mind. Now in the context where the gift was really given, then I agree it is not mine to manage anymore. This is how I see the Kal case. He has a claim to those shards, but he refused them. He gave them to his man naively thinking the lighteyes would agree. Of course they don't, for all the reasons I mentioned, some are good, some are less good, but it does not change the fact that, from a lighteyes point-of-vue, Kal was way out of his place.

 

I am not excusing Amaram's actions, but I do not think he will get punished for them. I do not think most lighteyes will not frown so much on his behavior. Hell, Sadeas abandoned Dalinar and is single-handed responsible for the death of 6000 men and he is not held accountable. How can Amaram, a well respected and liked, high ranked lighteye be held accountable for stealing a discarded shardblade his man had stupidly given to a lowly spearman? At worst, he'll get a stain on his reputation, but based on what I have seen of Alethki justice, he will walk out of it unscathed.

Edited June 24, 2014 by maxal

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

But Alethki society is ALL about perceptions. They are highly hypocrites when it comes to lawful matters. You can kill, you can steal, you can do whatever you want as long as you are not seen holding the knife. I never said Kaladin behavior excuses Amaram's actions. I am saying Amaram will be able to built himself a defense by working around that fact. He will use Kaladin inappropriate behavior against him. He will mention the man discarded the shards. He will claim the shards should go to trained soldier and not lowly darkeyes. He will use the Moash case, endorse by the very same Kaladin, to validate his point. He will defend himself and he may very well win!

 

This point applies to a good number of societies. "Innocent until proven guilty."  If Sadeas had confessed to abandoning Dalinar on purpose in front of other Highprinces, there's no way he could get away with it. There's no defense for "yeah, I did it, but I thought it would be better for everyone. 

 

 

What Kaladin did is not technically included within any jurisdiction. Darkeyes are not supposed to win shards, they are supposed to dream of doing it on the basis it happened 2 or 3 times over the last thousand of years, but they are not supposed to. Where does it say Kal even had the right to disposed on those shards as he wished? As I said, the law of property was not properly enforced by Kaladin. What he did falls outside the law. It never happened and when something never happened, then the jury has to decide how to deal with it.

 

The fact that Kaladin owns the Shards by the tradition of killing the bearer. He killed the bearer, those are Kaldin's shards. No arguing about it.  But it did happen because Amaram confesses it happened. 

 

 

 

 

 

We must not forget that Kaladin is a DARKEYE. He does not have the same rights as PRINCE Adolin. Adolin can do whatever he wants most of the time on the basis of his rank.

 

 

False, as soon as Kaladin killed the Shardbearer, he became a Lighteyes of the 4th Dahn. Amaram ignored that fact.

 

 

 

 

The gift analogy is a good one, I think. I voice my desire to give something very valuable to a friend and that friend respond by not wanting it, but desiring to instead give to someone else. I have not given the gift yet. I can still change my mind. Now in the context where the gift was really given, then I agree it is not mine to manage anymore. This is how I see the Kal case. He has a claim to those shards, but he refused them. He gave them to his man naively thinking the lighteyes would agree. Of course they don't, for all the reasons I mentioned, some are good, some are less good, but it does not change the fact that, from a lighteyes point-of-vue, Kal was way out of his place.

 

 

 

Amaram never had a claim to the Shards. He never had the authority to 'give' Shards. He can't 'take them back' because they were never his in the first place. The shards were not a gift from Amaram to Kaladin. The shards became Kaladin's as soon as he killed the bearer. That's how the tradition works. The lighteyes shouldn't have anything to do with it. Amaram had power and abused it. He disagreed, had no legal recourse, and so he had to murder, enslave, and conspire to hide the deeds he did. It doesn't matter if the Lighteyes think Kaladin was out of place, they had nothing to do with it. It was Kaladin's blade. 

 

 

I am not excusing Amaram's actions, but I do not think he will get punished for them. I do not think most lighteyes will not frown so much on his behavior. Hell, Sadeas abandoned Dalinar and is single-handed responsible for the death of 6000 men and he is not held accountable. How can Amaram, a well respected and liked, high ranked lighteye be held accountable for stealing a discarded shardblade his man had stupidly given to a lowly spearman? At worst, he'll get a stain on his reputation, but based on what I have seen of Alethki justice, he will walk out of it unscathed.

 

The passage shows that the Blade was not discarded, it was given. Sadeas never confessed to abondoning Dalinar, Amaram confessed to murder and false enslavement. There's no proof in the Sadeas case, and a full confession in the Amaram, those comparisons are incongruous. Amaram can be held accountable because he had to murder and steal and he confessed to doing it. 

[Guest]

This point applies to a good number of societies. "Innocent until proven guilty."  If Sadeas had confessed to abandoning Dalinar on purpose in front of other Highprinces, there's no way he could get away with it. There's no defense for "yeah, I did it, but I thought it would be better for everyone. 

 

He does not need to confess to be proven guilty. His actions were witness by thousand of people. Everyone knows he is guilty and there is ample proof. However, the Alethki society is built in a way such betrayal are acceptable and thus Sadeas is not held accountable.

 

 

The fact that Kaladin owns the Shards by the tradition of killing the bearer. He killed the bearer, those are Kaldin's shards. No arguing about it.  But it did happen because Amaram confesses it happened. 

 

And he can still tell a different story during his process. He was not prepared to face Dalinar's accusations of the end of WoR: now he will be, he will craft himself a defense. He will use Kaladin dismissal of the blade as an argument for himself.

 

Those were Kaladin's shards up until he turned them down. My whole point is I do not think he has the right to give them to just anybody. Adolin does it because he is a prince, because he is the son of a famous Highprince, because he is of the second dahn, but Kaladin? Can the two lower ranked lighteyes who received the plates Adolin won give them to somebody else? Can Moash? It is debatable and unprecedented. It could be the law will decide Kaladin did not have that right. It does not mean the blades should have gone to Amaram. In fact, they should have gone to the army's higher authority, namely Sadeas of even the King and they should decide who to give them to, either to Amaram himself or someone else.

 

 

Amaram never had a claim to the Shards. He never had the authority to 'give' Shards. He can't 'take them back' because they were never his in the first place. The shards were not a gift from Amaram to Kaladin. The shards became Kaladin's as soon as he killed the bearer. That's how the tradition works. The lighteyes shouldn't have anything to do with it. Amaram had power and abused it. He disagreed, had no legal recourse, and so he had to murder, enslave, and conspire to hide the deeds he did. It doesn't matter if the Lighteyes think Kaladin was out of place, they had nothing to do with it. It was Kaladin's blade. 

 

The passage shows that the Blade was not discarded, it was given. Sadeas never confessed to abondoning Dalinar, Amaram confessed to murder and false enslavement. There's no proof in the Sadeas case, and a full confession in the Amaram, those comparisons are incongruous. Amaram can be held accountable because he had to murder and steal and he confessed to doing it. 

I never said Amaram had a claim to the shards, nor that he was the one giving them, but as the highest ranked officer of his army, he should have had a word as to who gets to keep the shards now the foolish darkeye does not want them. Sure creed got in the way, sure he is a scumbag, but at the time of the encounter, Kal had already forfeit his claim on the blade. The whole question remains, in Kal's specific case, did he really have the right to chose who to give the blade he discarded on the floor? Did he really? I do not believe Alethki law is clear on the matter and I still maintain Amaram could get away by playing with the semantics.

 

Sadeas does not need to confess: he is guilty. There is ample proof, but what he did is considered acceptable. Technically, he was not the one slaying those soldiers, the Parshendi were. His hand did not held the knife, which is why Adolin's murder will have huge repercussions compared to none for Sadeas's much worst betrayal: Adolin was the one holding the knife. The same logic could be applied to Amaram. He did not personally slay those men. He ordered it, but he did not held the knife. Alethki society is twisted in such weird ways. Sure he confess, but he can still change his version of the story or embellished it or add more details to it providing it goes as far as a trial, which it may very well not.

[kari-no-sugata]

Old reply time...
 

Shallan once reacted poorly to Adolin's promise of protection and thought of her father, despite all differences. This make me think she'll overreact to Adolin's crime. We just read her character differently on the matter.

 
Well, what she's thinking of in that part is how she hates being "hidden away" (ie locked up / restricted). She says she appreciates the sentiment though - it's not like she has a sense of "Adolin is like my father".

 

I wonder if we'll ever see Shallan get locked up for real. I don't think she'd handle it any better than Kaladin.

 

Also, Brandon said he's fond of conflicts in relationships and I think Shadolin is going to fall apart next book.

 

While he does look for how to create/add conflict in general, including inner-conflict, that doesn't mean all characters have to be in conflict though. Actually, I'd much rather see something different - I think Shallan and Dalinar being in conflict over Adolin would be much more interesting than Shallan and Adolin in conflict directly.

 

Given that Shallan can detect lies more easily than most, it could easily be subverted instead, eg:

Adolin behind bars: It's just as well you visited since I didn't want you to hear from someone else: the causal's off, obviously. Being a Radiant and all, it's better you don't associate with the likes of me anyway.

Shallan looks shocked/surprised for a second, briefly shifting into anger... but suddenly she has a different look of surprise... then understanding.

Shallan, smiling a quiet smile: Being a Radiant and all, you shouldn't try to lie to me, even if it's for my own good. I appreciate the sentiment though.

Shallan puts a hand on Adolin's cheek, through the prison bars.

Shallan: It's not like I don't understand what you were going through with Sadeas either. Did you forget who came up with the plan with the duel?

Shallan continues: You did commit a crime but you might be surprised how popular it made you. If the law has to be followed then why was Sadeas allowed to break it with impunity? I'll see what I can do...

[Aleksiel]

Well, what she's thinking of in that part is how she hates being "hidden away" (ie locked up / restricted). She says she appreciates the sentiment though - it's not like she has a sense of "Adolin is like my father".

 

She was reminded of her childhood, she could't help it. The point isn't that someone will remind her directly of her father ('Almighty, he's just like my father!'), but something Kaladin or Adolin might do will remind her of unpleasant memories, just like it happened ('Storm it, my father would have done just that, I don't like it'). So, I think you misunderstood me because I meant what you said.

 

I wonder if we'll ever see Shallan get locked up for real. I don't think she'd handle it any better than Kaladin.

 

I don't know if I agree here. She won't be depressed about it, I doubt we'll see Shallan depressed anytime soon. She doesn't want to be locked up for her own safety, which is different than being imprisoned for a crime. The way I read her character, she's more likely to serve her time without much complaining or Lightweave her way out, depending on the circumstances.

 

While he does look for how to create/add conflict in general, including inner-conflict, that doesn't mean all characters have to be in conflict though. Actually, I'd much rather see something different - I think Shallan and Dalinar being in conflict over Adolin would be much more interesting than Shallan and Adolin in conflict directly.

 

Well, I think they'll break up in the next book. If you don't, that's fine. We'll wait and see.

 

But anyone having problem with Dalinar automatically has a problem with Adolin as well, I don't see Shallan standing between father and son.

 

Or may be you mean they'll have opposite reactions to Sadeas's murder? Well, I think Shallan will be the one who reacts worse. Dalinar loves Adolin too much, he'll forgive him almost everything. I expect Shallan to be repulsed by Adolin's action; I expect her to be reminded of her father and how he killed on a whim. I'm not saying she'll think Adolin is the same as her father, but that she'll think Adolin did what her father would have done. And their relationship will start to crumble. 

Edited June 30, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Guest]

 

But anyone having problem with Dalinar automatically has a problem with Adolin as well, I don't see Shallan standing between father and son.

 

Or may be you mean they'll have opposite reactions to Sadeas's murder? Well, I think Shallan will be the one who reacts worse. Dalinar loves Adolin too much, he'll forgive him almost everything. I expect Shallan to be repulsed by Adolin's action; I expect her to be reminded of her father and how he killed on a whim. I'm not saying she'll think Adolin is the same as her father, but that she'll think Adolin did what her father would have done. And their relationship will start to crumble. 

 

I think we disagree here. I agree with the premise of anyone having an issue with Dalinar automatically has one with Adolin. So far, this has been true, but it may change as I do not think Dalinar will react positively upon learning Adolin's deed. We must not forget Dalinar spent a lot of energies on Adolin. He really tried to make him a better man than he ever was. Dalinar's worst nightmare would be seeing his son walking down his path: down the path of the Blackthorn. It goes against everything Dalinar has ever tried to teach Adolin. True he loves his son, but how will he react upon watching his own boy repeat his mistakes? And what mistake! A highprince, knifed in the eye! I dunno if even the Blackthorn committed such crime....

 

We know how similar Dalinar and Adolin are sometimes.... The passions, the emotions, the hatred that threatens to overrule them at times (they think with their heart, Adolin mostly as Dalinar got more thoughtful with age, he does it a lot, acts on impulsions, on feelings)... We see Dalinar still struggling to contain his own anger, at times we see Adolin struggling even more up until he cracks for good. I think it is very likely Dalinar will overreact. Worst, I think he will lash at Adolin like a wild chamsfield (figuratively speaking of course)   He may see this as the ultimate betrayal, the betrayal of his trust and losing Dalinar's trust will destroy Adolin.

 

As for Shallan, I honestly am thorn between her reacting positively or negatively. I could see her being horrified and react as you say, but I could also see her understanding and wanting to protect Adolin, somehow. I love Kari play out though. It would be so sweet

[Aleksiel]

I think we disagree here. I agree with the premise of anyone having an issue with Dalinar automatically has one with Adolin. So far, this has been true, but it may change as I do not think Dalinar will react positively upon learning Adolin's deed. We must not forget Dalinar spent a lot of energies on Adolin. He really tried to make him a better man than he ever was. Dalinar's worst nightmare would be seeing his son walking down his path: down the path of the Blackthorn. It goes against everything Dalinar has ever tried to teach Adolin. True he loves his son, but how will he react upon watching his own boy repeat his mistakes? And what mistake! A highprince, knifed in the eye! I dunno if even the Blackthorn committed such crime....

 

We know how similar Dalinar and Adolin are sometimes.... The passions, the emotions, the hatred that threatens to overrule them at times (they think with their heart, Adolin mostly as Dalinar got more thoughtful with age, he does it a lot, acts on impulsions, on feelings)... We see Dalinar still struggling to contain his own anger, at times we see Adolin struggling even more up until he cracks for good. I think it is very likely Dalinar will overreact. Worst, I think he will lash at Adolin like a wild chamsfield (figuratively speaking of course)   He may see this as the ultimate betrayal, the betrayal of his trust and losing Dalinar's trust will destroy Adolin.

 

As for Shallan, I honestly am thorn between her reacting positively or negatively. I could see her being horrified and react as you say, but I could also see her understanding and wanting to protect Adolin, somehow. I love Kari play out though. It would be so sweet

 

 

I think Dalinar will have more compassion and understanding. Adolin is his beloved son and him being a bit like the Blackthorn isn't the worst thing that could happen. However, as I said, I expect Shallan to be completely horrified, because that 'little bit like the Blackthorne' is part of her childhood nightmares.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Guest]

I think Dalinar will have more compassion and understanding. Adolin is his beloved son and him being a bit like the Blackthorn isn't the worst thing that could happen. However, as I said, I expect Shallan to be completely horrified, because that 'little bit like the Blackthorne' is part of her childhood nightmares.

 

Which is exactly why I believe he will overreact. He puts a lot of trust into Adolin. He is overly proud of his son (and with reasons so far). Dalinar is horrified by his past and does not want his sons to follow it. Just think of the talk Dalinar has with Adolin at the end of WoR, the one where he tells him to not be the Blackthorn, of how proud of him he is, of how much a better man than him he is, etc. Once Dalinar finds out, he will come down, hard. All his hopes and dreams for his elder and very beloved son, evaporated. His bright future is now grim...

 

I think this is the perfect setup for Dalinar to go ballistic over Adolin, especially considering he is almost as hot-tempered as his son. He'll probably regret it afterwards and try to make amends, if it is not too late.

 

I am not sure why Shallan should identify Adolin's actions with her father... They have so little in common... Shallan's father was angry, anti-social and made his family's life a misery. He tried to murder his son because he wanted to eloped with the woman he loved. He murdered his wife (and beaten her on an everyday basis) because she went against him... Adolin murdered a scumbag responsible for the deaths of thousands of good men. He is charming, positive and a genuinely nice open person: he even spilled his guts on the first date! I would really think it a stretch for Shallan to identify Adolin's deed to her father.

[Aleksiel]

Which is exactly why I believe he will overreact. He puts a lot of trust into Adolin. He is overly proud of his son (and with reasons so far). Dalinar is horrified by his past and does not want his sons to follow it. Just think of the talk Dalinar has with Adolin at the end of WoR, the one where he tells him to not be the Blackthorn, of how proud of him he is, of how much a better man than him he is, etc. Once Dalinar finds out, he will come down, hard. All his hopes and dreams for his elder and very beloved son, evaporated. His bright future is now grim...

 

I think this is the perfect setup for Dalinar to go ballistic over Adolin, especially considering he is almost as hot-tempered as his son. He'll probably regret it afterwards and try to make amends, if it is not too late.

 

I am not sure why Shallan should identify Adolin's actions with her father... They have so little in common... Shallan's father was angry, anti-social and made his family's life a misery. He tried to murder his son because he wanted to eloped with the woman he loved. He murdered his wife (and beaten her on an everyday basis) because she went against him... Adolin murdered a scumbag responsible for the deaths of thousands of good men. He is charming, positive and a genuinely nice open person: he even spilled his guts on the first date! I would really think it a stretch for Shallan to identify Adolin's deed to her father.

 

I'm not saying Shallan will identify Adolin as a whole with her father. But he did kill on a whim and out of anger, much like her father did and this is what I expect to remind her of her father.

 

I think a loving parent will be more forgiving and understanding than a new crush. I don't expect Dalinar to react generally well, only better than Shallan. Why would she be understanding? And understanding of what? Her father claimed all he did was for the family, what Adolin did was also for his family.

 

After Kabsal, she's extra careful not to fall easily for someone or misjudge the next guy. While Adolin is indeed a generally great guy, she has no reason to overlook the darkness that possessed him when he killed Sadeas. To Shallan, Adolin is only crush, just guy she likes. She's not smitten by him or madly inlove with him. Shallan doesn't have a strong and deep bond with Adolin, she basically just met him. What Adolin did will be a red flag to her and I see no reason for her to accept and understand that a nice guy can just snap and kill another person while blinded by anger, no matter how justified the said anger is. Her father claimed his anger was other's fault and Adolin saying Sadeas provoked him won't help. 

 

Adolin is nothing like her father, but what he did has some parallels with the angry man of Shallan's nightmares. She is very sensitive to anything that reminds her of her father even in the slightest, it's a mental scar that hasn't healed. She can't be objective when something even remotely reminds her of her father and Adolin already did that once. Shallan has many emotional issues, don't disregard them so easily.