dyring Posted July 1, 2014 Posted July 1, 2014 1. Why is everyone so sure it will be public knowledge that Adolin killed Sadeas?  2. Sadeas is not held accountable for betraying Dalinar because Dalinar chooses not to do anything about it, as it would rip alethkar apart.  3. I think Amaram might be a tad shocked that Dalinar, and even worse, Kaladin, is a radiant now. He might had been able to get away with it if it was just a darkeye. But now its the radiant who saved the king, and defeated the assasin in white. Big diff. He´s stormed. Kaladin would get his duel now if he asked. Good luck to Amaram.  4. Maxal - your countries inheritance laws are weird. In mine, I could actually not even deny my inheritance if I did not want it. I could give it away after the fact yeah, but I´d haveto take it. Also, the parent cannot deny giving 50% of his property to his child when he dies(or divided among them if there are several).
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted July 1, 2014 Posted July 1, 2014 1. Why is everyone so sure it will be public knowledge that Adolin killed Sadeas?   Motive means and opportunity. While it doesn't seem like anyone can place Adonin at the scene of the crime, there's a chunk of time missing between when he's with one scouting party, and then with the other. He also didn't do much to cover it up very well:   Thoughts coming more clearly, Adolin picked up the weapon and stumbled away. He ditched the Blade out a window, dropping it down into one of the planterlike outcroppings of the terrace below. It might be safe there. After that, he had the presence of mind to cut of his cuffs, remove his chalk mark on the wall by scraping it free with his own Blade, and walk as far away as he could before finding one of his scouting parties and pretending he'd been in that area all along.  The most critical piece of evidence is still there-Adolin's knife, which, being the side knife of the heir to a princedom, is bound to be pretty recognizable, or at least fancy. At the very least Dalinar should be able to recognize his sons knife. There's also the strange scraping on the wall which could be linked to a Shardblade being used to scrape. That could narrow the suspect field down considerably. If oathkeeper is found, then you've got another puzzle. Sadeas wasn't killed for the Blade, so it would have to be someone who wants him dead. The Kholins have motive in spades. Finally there's the cuffs. Adolin is obsessed with fashion. Even though he wears the uniform all the time, it's described as more stylish than a regular uniform. So how will he explain the missing cuffs? He didn't go straight back to change, and I doubt there's too many more uniforms for him to have. I doubt a lot of their supplies from the excursion made its way onto the Oathgate, and they'd be too worried about more important supplies to worry about bringing it with them from the Shattered Plains warcamps. I'd be surprised if one of the uniforms wasn't destroyed in the battle on the plateaus earlier as well.  Beyond that, who else is everyone going to assume it is? Adolin itches to attack Sadeas every time they come into contact with each other. It's only the presence of others that stops him. Usually Renarin, but even Amaram once. There's also that challenge that was issued to Sadeas from Adolin. If I was starting the investigation, he's my prime suspect right off the bat. Who else would you investigate when someone had just issued a challenge to fight to the death to your murder victim? The Alethi aren't very bright if they can't figure this one out.Â
dyring Posted July 1, 2014 Posted July 1, 2014 (edited) Well, Did Sadeas have any children? Clear heirs? Remember his wife being mentioned but cant think of any heirs right now. Â A powerstruggle might make it way less of a priority who killed sadeas, and a way bigger one to grab power. Not to mention that there is a worldchanging desolation coming, everyones most trusted babysitters are turning murderous, and they are in a mythical city led by the heretical turned maybe savior radiants. Â Alot of things are happening. Its not exately a good time for an ordered investigation. Edited July 1, 2014 by dyring
adbf he/him Posted July 1, 2014 Posted July 1, 2014 Shallan once reacted poorly to Adolin's promise of protection and thought of her father, despite all differences. This make me think she'll overreact to Adolin's crime. We just read her character differently on the matter.  Also, Brandon said he's fond of conflicts in relationships and I think Shadolin is going to fall apart next book. I would be very very dissapointed if Shallan did so. And I don't beieve she will. Because it is too much out of her character, too much against something she built in herself to amazing measure and proved several times under most horrible conditions. Shallan is extremely stubborn in her devotion, once she grows such. I don't know what should happen for her to "overreact" to a misstep from somebody, to whom she is comitted. And exaclty the comparison with her father is a proof against the option of her starting an angry fuss about Adolin's crime. The point is - she still feels compassion and devotion to her father. Even during the very process of killing her father she still feeled so. And not just some curious feeling eerily resembling devotion, mind you, noq it's a deep devotion (and the more it hurt her to kill him after all, after so many years desperately struggling to get him out of the hell he drove himself in, after sacrificing so much in thah fight). Or how much she still never lets anybody say anything bad about her mother, remember - the one who went to kill her own little daughter coldly denouncing her as a monster who never should have lived. She doesn't hate or curse a single time her parents, or even Kabsal or Tyn, to whom her affection was much more superficious, their assassination attempts notwithstandong. (And it's not because she cannot curse - she can be very inventive and passionate in this art to strangers who don't truly deserve it). She's just like that. One Adolin reminded her about her father, you say? Well, we do have another example of somebody who reminded her much more about her father - Nan Balat with his nice habit of torturing crabs. She's truly devoted to her brothers despite all their missgivings (which missgivings all three of them really do have). I say: exacty the comparison to her father can actually add deepness to Shallan's relationship to Adolin. Having in mind that in this comparison Adolin would appear rather good. Shallan had nothing against Heralan threatening her father with killning him, if you want a character witness. I do agree with Alexiel, that until now Shallan is lacking deepness in her relationship to Adolin, I agree that it could eventually lead to her dropping him. I also agree, that she might decide that Adolin the murderer is not exacly the man she would want as her beloved. But I disagree that it would happen as angry hysterical confrontation. More likely of Shallan it would be her feeling guilty quitting him, similar to how she felt uncomfortable quitting Kabsal. And, IMHO, I guess there would be better chances for her breaking with Adolin if this happens before the truth about Sadeas' death comes out. After that, I doubt Shallan will be blinded by Adolin's deed, and it would give a much needed for their relations opportunity for them to communitate about truly deep and serious matters (especially while Kaladin is conveniently away struggling with the impulse to let Roshone be literally struck by meeting a most beautiful and articulate young lady). I think a loving parent will be more forgiving and understanding than a new crush. I don't expect Dalinar to react generally well, only better than Shallan.The problem is that Dalinar is quite a particular loving father, and Shallan is quite a particular crush. Dalinar truly loves his son, and very deeply indeed, but Dalinar is too much of the conviction that personal happyness is lower in priority than honor. A Iunius Brutus reincarnate. Like all he didi to resist his feelings to Navani for all those years. And Adolin's deed is so much against the rules of honorable conduct he fought so much to bring into being. No, Dalinar will react very very bad. It will kill him to do so, but he will be exemplary harsh to Adolin for it. Everything in his way to behave untli now to his closest and beloved proves so.While Shallan has also a long story of reacting to very unpleasant loses of self-control by her closest relatives, and she invarianlty and far over the limits of endurance of an average person reacted with most astounding compassion. Judging from past behavior, she would most likely act like kari-no-sugata said (and yes, I would like that very much). And, even if I say this myself, I'm against Sadeas's murder acusing Shalan's breaking with Adolin, it's not because I'm generally in favor of the continuing of Shallan-Adolin ship. But it's because of how exacly this ship is to be broken. Similarilly, I would be very much against a number of hypothetical reasons for Adolin and Shallan going closer (e.g. if both grow to share taking with whole hearth the teachings of the Ghostbloods) - no matter how I would enjoy a relationship, it would be bad for it to happen in a dissapointing manner. And there are ways for the relationship Shallan - Adolin to break, I would like. E.g., based on how confronting Dalinar would mean confronting Adolin, I can imagine how Dalinar gets very harsh to Adolin and Shallan confronts passionately Dalinar because of it (I'm very much in agreement with kari-no-sugata, about it's being the most likely outcome), only for Adolin to ... rebuke his crush in defence of his father. 1
Chrono she/her Posted July 1, 2014 Posted July 1, 2014 Well, Did Sadeas have any children? Clear heirs? Remember his wife being mentioned but cant think of any heirs right now.  A powerstruggle might make it way less of a priority who killed sadeas, and a way bigger one to grab power. Not to mention that there is a worldchanging desolation coming, everyones most trusted babysitters are turning murderous, and they are in a mythical city led by the heretical turned maybe savior radiants.  Alot of things are happening. Its not exately a good time for an ordered investigation.  I'm pretty sure it mentions that Sadeas had no children, just Ialai. He could have some heirs in his army, but I doubt it.  As for the power struggle thing, I think you're totally right. We now have a massive power vacuum open for anyone who's crazy enough to try and take it. Some people will undoubtedly be clamoring for justice (Dalinar, Ialai, supporters of Sadeas, supporters of Adolin), but I think that will be secondary to most lighteyes. Who cares how it happened, we just got a new availability for Highprince! Anyone who think's they're a somebody will be trying everything they can to sneak into the position. It will be absolute chaos. Even if Sadeas has a clearly defined successor, people will be clamoring to get into his good graces, become sycophants, try and earn themselves positions of power, etc.  I think there will be a trial, but with all the craziness going around, it won't get much emphasis.
Aleksiel Posted July 1, 2014 Posted July 1, 2014 .... Â Â We definitely read her character differently, because I don't see how Shallan is devoted to Adolin. She's devoted to the idea of marring him, which is something entirely else. She has a crush on him and nothing more. Shallan is devoted to her family, but Adolin isn't part of it. Of course she'll forgive her brothers more than she'd forgive others. Your example with Nan Balat isn't suitable, because Shallan doesn't love Adolin nearly as much and I frankly don't think she loves Adolin at all.
Guest Posted July 1, 2014 Posted July 1, 2014 (edited) Oh crap, my laptop battery ran out and I lost my very lengthy message    Edited July 1, 2014 by maxal
Pathfinder Posted July 1, 2014 Posted July 1, 2014 (edited) I think one issue with all of this is (correct me if I am wrong), but we never see the actual law regarding winning shardblades/plate in battle regarding dark eyes. All we have is stated rumors. If the rumors are to be taken as the law, then based on what is written verbatim Kaladin got the shardblade/armor. There is no clause stating about bonding being necessary. There is no clause stating one must physically pick up the blade/plate and there is no clause stating one must say "mine!". Now at least regarding US law, if this was a case regarding a gift, then you are right Maxal, one must receive the gift to be in ownership of it. But I do not believe the shardbearer that is killed, is considered as gifting the shardblade/plate to his or her killer. It is spoils of war.  edit: and i did actually find law (in the US at least), regarding spoils of war when it pertains to law:  Spoils of war in the possession, custody, or control of the United States may be transferred to any other party, including any government, group, or person, by sale, grant, loan or in any other manner, only to the extent and in the same manner that property of the same type, if otherwise owned by the United States, may be so transferred.  Emphasized by me. Kal was in control of the shards the moment he killed the shardbearer based on the rumor as written. He then chose to give control to his friend. Edited July 1, 2014 by Pathfinder
Guest Posted July 2, 2014 Posted July 2, 2014 (edited) Sorry all for my rant against my computer, my router and Windows in general.....  Here it goes *again* for the FOURTH time...   I think a loving parent will be more forgiving and understanding than a new crush. I don't expect Dalinar to react generally well, only better than Shallan. Why would she be understanding? And understanding of what? Her father claimed all he did was for the family, what Adolin did was also for his family.  It is difficult to be a loving parent. You want what is best for your children and moreover, you do not want them to repeat your own mistakes. There is nothing worst than seeing your own faults into your own kids. It hurts. You hurt for them because you know they will struggle with this and yes I can see how a loving parent could go mad (or at least very vocal) about some bad choice one of his kid is taking. As a loving parent, you often end up knowing your kid better than he knows himself and it is hard to watch them chose a path you know is wrong for them. You may get very vocal about it because, as a loving parent, you feel it is your duty to educate your kid even if it means going against them.Ultimately, every loving parent must realize their children's mistake are their own and not theirs. However, being a loving parent myself, I must say it is easier said then done.Bottom line is I believe Dalinar may be a loving father but he will not be fine at all with Adolin's deed. It is too reminiscent of his days as the Blackthorn, a life style that brought Dalinar a lot of pain. Why would he want his son to suffer? He has spent years trying to teach better morality to his son and he was succeeding. Adolin may have been quite vocal about his discontent at times, but in the end, he is a good kid. He is not the bloodthirsty warrior his father once was. He does not rejoice in the killing of living creatures for sport. He joined the war not because he wanted to become a soldier, unlike Dalinar who chose soldering as a career, but because he wanted to protect his father.In the end, Adolin is a nice kid and seeing such as he going down is hard. You are never much surprised to see you wayward rebellious drugged addict kid turn bad, you sort of made you mind about it: but the straight A grade student? Ouch. You don't want him to turn bad, you want him to understand, so you go down on him, hard and this is exactly how I think Dalinar will react.There is also the whole "unite Alethkar" issue.... Dalinar has been trying to enforce this very high standard morality code upon everyone. How can he defend going easy on his son while promoting the former? He can't. He just can't. Either he let go of his morality or he prosecutes his son. What is more important for Dalinar? Galivar and unitying Alethkar or Adolin's faith? I fear Dalinar will feel he needs to make an example out of Adolin, to go especially hard on him to prove his point. He will most likely suffer all the way through, it will probably break his heart, but he'll do it. For Galivar. For Alethkar. But he will regret it. It won't work. You can't be the Bondsmith, work towards unity and at the same time destroy your family. Conflict will arise there.  1. Why is everyone so sure it will be public knowledge that Adolin killed Sadeas?  2. Sadeas is not held accountable for betraying Dalinar because Dalinar chooses not to do anything about it, as it would rip alethkar apart.  3. I think Amaram might be a tad shocked that Dalinar, and even worse, Kaladin, is a radiant now. He might had been able to get away with it if it was just a darkeye. But now its the radiant who saved the king, and defeated the assasin in white. Big diff. He´s stormed. Kaladin would get his duel now if he asked. Good luck to Amaram.  4. Maxal - your countries inheritance laws are weird. In mine, I could actually not even deny my inheritance if I did not want it. I could give it away after the fact yeah, but I´d haveto take it. Also, the parent cannot deny giving 50% of his property to his child when he dies(or divided among them if there are several).  1. Because Adolin did a poor job of hiding the facts. Because Adolin is not a murderer at heart, he is a straight-forward guy and he won't be able to keep it to himself. Because being Dalinar's pride, he will feel overly guilty and someone is bound to notice he is not feeling right. Add that to his lack of alibi, well someone is bound to add one and one, either that or Adolin will come clear to clean his conscience.2. Yes and ultimately it destroyed his son. Dalinar put Alethkar's unity before everything, before rightness. Letting Sadeas walk free was not right, but Dalinar is able to make such choices, for what he thinks is the greater good. Adolin thinks with his heart and he cannot let that go away and, in the end, he explodes.3. True, but I still think Amaram will wiggle out of this one, somehow.4. Sorry   The most critical piece of evidence is still there-Adolin's knife, which, being the side knife of the heir to a princedom, is bound to be pretty recognizable, or at least fancy. At the very least Dalinar should be able to recognize his sons knife. There's also the strange scraping on the wall which could be linked to a Shardblade being used to scrape. That could narrow the suspect field down considerably. If oathkeeper is found, then you've got another puzzle. Sadeas wasn't killed for the Blade, so it would have to be someone who wants him dead. The Kholins have motive in spades. Finally there's the cuffs. Adolin is obsessed with fashion. Even though he wears the uniform all the time, it's described as more stylish than a regular uniform. So how will he explain the missing cuffs? He didn't go straight back to change, and I doubt there's too many more uniforms for him to have. I doubt a lot of their supplies from the excursion made its way onto the Oathgate, and they'd be too worried about more important supplies to worry about bringing it with them from the Shattered Plains warcamps. I'd be surprised if one of the uniforms wasn't destroyed in the battle on the plateaus earlier as well.  Infamous knife. I wouldn't be surprised to learn the knife has the Kohlin's glyphard stamped on it.............. Good point about the clothes. How dramatic would it be if it turns out Adolin does not have a suitable change of clothe? The uniform he wore during the battle is definitely trashed: it was described as thorn and bloody.  Edit: FYI, missing your cuff id pretty obvious, no? Adolin went to join his searching party: someone will notice. It is impossible for no one to see that. Wasn't Navani also part of the scouting effort? Surely she will noticed..... I have never thought of this before, but what if it were Navani that uncover the whole thing? And how about the blood on his hands? How did he washed that out? Did he have any water on him? Surely he must have stained his hands, his nails.... and I cannot believe he didn't get any other drop of blood anywhere else.......... and you know tossing and turning on the ground is not so good for uniform: his is bound to look a little weathered and battered, no?   I would be very very dissapointed if Shallan did so. And I don't beieve she will. Because it is too much out of her character, too much against something she built in herself to amazing measure and proved several times under most horrible conditions.Shallan is extremely stubborn in her devotion, once she grows such. I don't know what should happen for her to "overreact" to a misstep from somebody, to whom she is comitted. And exaclty the comparison with her father is a proof against the option of her starting an angry fuss about Adolin's crime.The point is - she still feels compassion and devotion to her father. Even during the very process of killing her father she still feeled so. And not just some curious feeling eerily resembling devotion, mind you, noq it's a deep devotion (and the more it hurt her to kill him after all, after so many years desperately struggling to get him out of the hell he drove himself in, after sacrificing so much in thah fight). Or how much she still never lets anybody say anything bad about her mother, remember - the one who went to kill her own little daughter coldly denouncing her as a monster who never should have lived. She doesn't hate or curse a single time her parents, or even Kabsal or Tyn, to whom her affection was much more superficious, their assassination attempts notwithstandong. (And it's not because she cannot curse - she can be very inventive and passionate in this art to strangers who don't truly deserve it). She's just like that.One Adolin reminded her about her father, you say? Well, we do have another example of somebody who reminded her much more about her father - Nan Balat with his nice habit of torturing crabs. She's truly devoted to her brothers despite all their missgivings (which missgivings all three of them really do have). I say: exacty the comparison to her father can actually add deepness to Shallan's relationship to Adolin. Having in mind that in this comparison Adolin would appear rather good. Shallan had nothing against Heralan threatening her father with killning him, if you want a character witness.I do agree with Alexiel, that until now Shallan is lacking deepness in her relationship to Adolin, I agree that it could eventually lead to her dropping him. I also agree, that she might decide that Adolin the murderer is not exacly the man she would want as her beloved. But I disagree that it would happen as angry hysterical confrontation. More likely of Shallan it would be her feeling guilty quitting him, similar to how she felt uncomfortable quitting Kabsal.And, IMHO, I guess there would be better chances for her breaking with Adolin if this happens before the truth about Sadeas' death comes out. After that, I doubt Shallan will be blinded by Adolin's deed, and it would give a much needed for their relations opportunity for them to communitate about truly deep and serious matters (especially while Kaladin is conveniently away struggling with the impulse to let Roshone be literally struck by meeting a most beautiful and articulate young lady).  I agree about Shallan feeling compassionate about her father. However, her compassion was mostly triggered by her guilt as she feels responsible for her father's break down. She most certainly not feel responsible for whatever befalls on Adolin, but she may be moved by guilt over-ridden Adolin. Can she? Will it be enough? She likes him, but does she like him enough for this?  I agree with Aleksiel that Shallan is not in love. She has a crush on him, so far and whereas I do think Adolin IS falling in love with her, I am not sure the same could be said about Shallan. So far, she has treated her relationship with Adolin as something she needed in order to save her family. Her strategy to tame the wild bachelor was to become so irresistible he wouldn't let go and it worked. Now her family is safe, will she feel compel to continue? For the short term, I think she will as she does like him, but she won't put much effort into it. I believe the main struggle within the relationship will come from Adolin himself who will struggle to find his place in this new world. He will feel he does not deserve Shallan, after all, he did not deserve a spren, he did not deserve to be a Radiant (unlike everyone else in his family) and of course he is undeserving: he is a murderer (does not matter than everyone else in his family is one as well). This is exactly the line of thought we may see with Adolin and it would lead him to abruptly break up with Shallan, not because he wants to, but because he feels he has to.  Sadeas's murder implication would probably come after. Can Shallan be understanding enough to take Adolin's side even if they broke up? If Dalinar comes down hard on his son, will she feel sorry for her once betrothed or will she feel he deserved it?    The problem is that Dalinar is quite a particular loving father, and Shallan is quite a particular crush. Dalinar truly loves his son, and very deeply indeed, but Dalinar is too much of the conviction that personal happyness is lower in priority than honor. A Iunius Brutus reincarnate. Like all he didi to resist his feelings to Navani for all those years. And Adolin's deed is so much against the rules of honorable conduct he fought so much to bring into being. No, Dalinar will react very very bad. It will kill him to do so, but he will be exemplary harsh to Adolin for it. Everything in his way to behave untli now to his closest and beloved proves so.  Agree. It is exactly how I see it being played out. However, I am unsure as to how far Dalinar will be able to bring it. Will he outlaw his own son? Trial him? Put him for execution? Disinherited him? Strip him of name and titles? Take his shards away? All of the above? Or will he realize he is breaking down his family over Toroll Sadeas and that his son needs his help, not his anger before it is too late? Does he love Adolin enough to see past his crime? Edited July 2, 2014 by maxal
Aleksiel Posted July 2, 2014 Posted July 2, 2014  Infamous knife. I wouldn't be surprised to learn the knife has the Kohlin's glyphard stamped on it.............. Good point about the clothes. How dramatic would it be if it turns out Adolin does not have a suitable change of clothe? The uniform he wore during the battle is definitely trashed: it was described as thorn and bloody.  Edit: FYI, missing your cuff id pretty obvious, no? Adolin went to join his searching party: someone will notice. It is impossible for no one to see that. Wasn't Navani also part of the scouting effort? Surely she will noticed..... I have never thought of this before, but what if it were Navani that uncover the whole thing? And how about the blood on his hands? How did he washed that out? Did he have any water on him? Surely he must have stained his hands, his nails.... and I cannot believe he didn't get any other drop of blood anywhere else.......... and you know tossing and turning on the ground is not so good for uniform: his is bound to look a little weathered and battered, no?  Did Adolin really did a poor job hiding his tracks?   Adolin stumbled back to not get blood on his clothing, though his cuffs were already stained. ...... Thoughts coming more clearly, Adolin picked up the weapon and stumbled away. He ditched the Blade out a window, dropping it down into one of the planterlike outcroppings of the terrace below. It might be safe there. After that, he had the presence of mind to cut off his cuffs, remove his chalk mark on the wall by scraping it free with his own Blade, and walk as far away as he could before finding one of his scouting parties and pretending he’d been in that area all along.  The way I read it, he got his knife and ditched the Blade outside; he didn't leave his knife with the body. The only suspicious thing he did was scrapping the mark with his Blade, so that might look like an obvious work of Shardblade. Adolin's clothes weren't stained and he was missing for only a few minutes. I think he did a fine job and is more likely to confess than have his crime revealed. Though it depends on what he did with the cuffs. If he ditched them there, then that's bad. If he took them with him, noone is going to look through his clothes anytime soon and he has enough uniforms to hide the fact one of them was suspiciously damaged. Or he could make a story about it. At any rate, most people wouldn't be asking about his cuffs unless they are on the crime scene.   It is difficult to be a loving parent. You want what is best for your children and moreover, you do not want them to repeat your own mistakes. There is nothing worst than seeing your own faults into your own kids. It hurts. You hurt for them because you know they will struggle with this and yes I can see how a loving parent could go mad (or at least very vocal) about some bad choice one of his kid is taking. As a loving parent, you often end up knowing your kid better than he knows himself and it is hard to watch them chose a path you know is wrong for them. You may get very vocal about it because, as a loving parent, you feel it is your duty to educate your kid even if it means going against them. Ultimately, every loving parent must realize their children's mistake are their own and not theirs. However, being a loving parent myself, I must say it is easier said then done. Bottom line is I believe Dalinar may be a loving father but he will not be fine at all with Adolin's deed. It is too reminiscent of his days as the Blackthorn, a life style that brought Dalinar a lot of pain. Why would he want his son to suffer? He has spent years trying to teach better morality to his son and he was succeeding. Adolin may have been quite vocal about his discontent at times, but in the end, he is a good kid. He is not the bloodthirsty warrior his father once was. He does not rejoice in the killing of living creatures for sport. He joined the war not because he wanted to become a soldier, unlike Dalinar who chose soldering as a career, but because he wanted to protect his father. In the end, Adolin is a nice kid and seeing such as he going down is hard. You are never much surprised to see you wayward rebellious drugged addict kid turn bad, you sort of made you mind about it: but the straight A grade student? Ouch. You don't want him to turn bad, you want him to understand, so you go down on him, hard and this is exactly how I think Dalinar will react.  That's a very good argument, however that's still a better reaction than I expect Shallan to have, which was technically my main point. Guess we'll see. I just want things to be ok between Adolin and Dalinar and prefer to overlook a thing or two... or three     However, I am unsure as to how far Dalinar will be able to bring it. Will he outlaw his own son? Trial him? Put him for execution? Disinherited him? Strip him of name and titles? Take his shards away? All of the above? Or will he realize he is breaking down his family over Toroll Sadeas and that his son needs his help, not his anger before it is too late? Does he love Adolin enough to see past his crime?  I don't see disowning Adolin as an option because it's against his Oath. I expect Elhokar to step in here. See, Dalinar can't prosecute Adolin, that's the king's job. So, regardless of any personal issues between son and father, Adolin's crime will have the legal consequences Elhokar decides, despite Dalinar's wishes. So, our dear Bondsmiths won't make a choice between Alethkar and his son, because it's not for him to decide how Adolin will be punished.Â
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted July 2, 2014 Posted July 2, 2014 (edited) I see no support to say he took the blade.   Sadeas shook for a moment, blood pooling around the blade as Adolin worked it to be certain. A second later, a Shardblade appeared beside Sadeas-his father's Shardblade. Sadeas was dead.  Adolin stumbled back to not get blood on his clothing, though his cuffs were already stained. ......[Dazed, he stared at the weapon [shardblade.] Neither man had summoned his Blade for the fight. The weapnos might be worth of fortune, but thy'd do less good than a rock is such a close quarters fight.] Thoughts coming more clearly, Adolin picked up the weapon and stumbled away. He ditched the Blade out a window, dropping it down into one of the planterlike outcroppings of the terrace below. It might be safe there. After that, he had the presence of mind to cut off his cuffs, remove his chalk mark on the wall by scraping it free with his own Blade, and walk as far away as he could before finding one of his scouting parties and pretending he’d been in that area all along.  That says to me he worked the blade, Sadeas dies, he jumps back to avoid blood. If he pulls that knife out, he's going to get blood on him again.  The section you omitted is important to the interpretation of the section. The knife hasn't been referred to for several paragraphs, but it references the Shardblade as 'weapon' immediately before that paragraph, and the use of 'weapon' again is used to describe the Shardblade. It's logical flow of action as well. He picks up the Blade, then throws the Blade.   I don't want to rehash all my points in threads that are right next to each other at the moment, but there's some good discussion about this going on here: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/12758-the-biggest-challenge-facing-the-new-knights-radiant/ Edited July 2, 2014 by EMTrevor
Guest Posted July 2, 2014 Posted July 2, 2014 (edited) Did Adolin really did a poor job hiding his tracks?   The way I read it, he got his knife and ditched the Blade outside; he didn't leave his knife with the body. The only suspicious thing he did was scrapping the mark with his Blade, so that might look like an obvious work of Shardblade. Adolin's clothes weren't stained and he was missing for only a few minutes. I think he did a fine job and is more likely to confess than have his crime revealed. Though it depends on what he did with the cuffs. If he ditched them there, then that's bad. If he took them with him, noone is going to look through his clothes anytime soon and he has enough uniforms to hide the fact one of them was suspiciously damaged. Or he could make a story about it. At any rate, most people wouldn't be asking about his cuffs unless they are on the crime scene.  There is good discussion about the knife in the other thread. I see you joined, so I won't make further comment on the knife. I'll only state I do not believe Adolin hid the fact as well as we think.   That's a very good argument, however that's still a better reaction than I expect Shallan to have, which was technically my main point. Guess we'll see. I just want things to be ok between Adolin and Dalinar and prefer to overlook a thing or two... or three   I do not think Shallan will react as badly as Dalinar simply because, for Shallan, Adolin going murderer on Sadeas has much less impact than on Dalinar. What is at stake for her? The betrothal to the nice handsome guy she does not need anymore? She does not have to marry him, nobody will force her. She may end the relationship any time she wants and knowing Adolin's track record in the matter, no one will look into it if it happens. Bottom line is, besides thinking at how bad she is at choosing guys, Adolin's deed is of no consequences to Shallan. I fail to see how she would get pissed out angry at him. Perhaps if she really was in love with him, but so far it looks more like a crush. So her crush falls apart. Move on to the next one, you are 17 after all.  Dalinar however.... Adolin's actions will have huge repercussions on Dalinar. He will see it as a failure, as a father. When your kid goes this bad, as a parent, you can't help but wonder what you did wrong. Dalinar will be seriously hampered by these news. His initial reaction will be harsh and authoritative.  I want things to be OK between Dalinar and Adolin as well... which is why I am secretly hoping Dalinar will back down on Adolin Or that Dalinar will be very hard, Adolin will go an do something unbelievably stupid because after being told by his hero is now is a liability to the family, he cannot think straight anymore (something like trying to take down a whole army of Voidbringers, shardless, by himself ), Dalinar will realize his son is going crazy and it is his fault, he will go to his son's rescue (but Adolin will somehow have managed to actually take down half the army by himself ) and we will have a very tearful family reunion...... :ph34r: :ph34r:   I don't see disowning Adolin as an option because it's against his Oath. I expect Elhokar to step in here. See, Dalinar can't prosecute Adolin, that's the king's job. So, regardless of any personal issues between son and father, Adolin's crime will have the legal consequences Elhokar decides, despite Dalinar's wishes. So, our dear Bondsmiths won't make a choice between Alethkar and his son, because it's not for him to decide how Adolin will be punished.  He may not have the authority to banish him or to execute him, but he certainly can chose to disown him. As head of the Kohlin's household, he can decide to make Renarin the next Highprince instead of Adolin. He can also obliged Adolin to give out his shards. Dalinar has a lot of power towards Adolin's faith. I agree however, the worst may come from Elhokar and I have no idea how this one feels about his young cousin............... Do they even like each other? Edited July 2, 2014 by maxal
Aleksiel Posted July 2, 2014 Posted July 2, 2014 .... Â Disown him, because he killed Sadeas? Now, that's some over-reaction. I don't agree Dalinar will react that bad. It's not like Adolin went on a killing spree, murdering civilians and torturing puppies. Â I want Jasnah to be back when this resolves. She'll be like 'Adolin, I am disappointed. Don't you know there are professionals for those kind of things?'Â 4
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted July 2, 2014 Posted July 2, 2014 (edited) I want Jasnah to be back when this resolves. She'll be like 'Adolin, I am disappointed. Don't you know there are professionals for those kind of things?'Â THIS! Edited July 2, 2014 by EMTrevor 1
Guest Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 Disown him, because he killed Sadeas? Now, that's some over-reaction. I don't agree Dalinar will react that bad. It's not like Adolin went on a killing spree, murdering civilians and torturing puppies. Â I want Jasnah to be back when this resolves. She'll be like 'Adolin, I am disappointed. Don't you know there are professionals for those kind of things?'Â Â Yes but he went and did the worst possible crime for a lighteye his rank: he killed one of his own. Disowning him sounds very plausible. How else can Dalinar effectively punish Adolin? Ask for a banishment? Is that better? It is worst! He'll lose his son for good if he is banished. Take his shards? Yes, it will most likely happened, but it would impaired the Kohlin's greatly: Adolin is their best fighter. Â I wonder, do Alethkar have trials by combat, GRRM style? Could we see Adolin being forced to fight against another impossible foe to save his skin? Some long lost hidden law saying he can claim justice through it? Â Love Jasnah. I hope she comes back. I am dying to read her reaction to her cousin's misgivings.
kari-no-sugata Posted July 3, 2014 Author Posted July 3, 2014 But anyone having problem with Dalinar automatically has a problem with Adolin as well, I don't see Shallan standing between father and son.  Or may be you mean they'll have opposite reactions to Sadeas's murder? Well, I think Shallan will be the one who reacts worse. Dalinar loves Adolin too much, he'll forgive him almost everything. I expect Shallan to be repulsed by Adolin's action; I expect her to be reminded of her father and how he killed on a whim. I'm not saying she'll think Adolin is the same as her father, but that she'll think Adolin did what her father would have done. And their relationship will start to crumble.  Just a quick reply but:  The "conflict" I'm envisioning between Shallan and Dalinar would boil down to arguments about morality and law, similar (though angrier) to the ones between Shallan and Jasnah in tWoK - except that it's Shallan telling Dalinar that his view of the world is too simple. I would actually expect this to help Dalinar long term.  Depending on how she hears about it and with what details, Shallan could certainly react badly at first but if she hears Adolin describe it I would expect her to compare his situation to when Nan Balat finally stood to his father (and got his leg broken) - there's actually some interesting parallels there between the situation with Adolin/Sadeas and Balat/Lin, though obviously Adolin is a much more skilled fighter so the end result is different.
Aleksiel Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 Yes but he went and did the worst possible crime for a lighteye his rank: he killed one of his own. Disowning him sounds very plausible. How else can Dalinar effectively punish Adolin? Ask for a banishment? Is that better? It is worst! He'll lose his son for good if he is banished. Take his shards? Yes, it will most likely happened, but it would impaired the Kohlin's greatly: Adolin is their best fighter. Â I wonder, do Alethkar have trials by combat, GRRM style? Could we see Adolin being forced to fight against another impossible foe to save his skin? Some long lost hidden law saying he can claim justice through it? Â Love Jasnah. I hope she comes back. I am dying to read her reaction to her cousin's misgivings. Â Is that really the worst possible crime a lighteyes of his rank can do? I don't remember anyone saying so. Â Â Just a quick reply but: Â The "conflict" I'm envisioning between Shallan and Dalinar would boil down to arguments about morality and law, similar (though angrier) to the ones between Shallan and Jasnah in tWoK - except that it's Shallan telling Dalinar that his view of the world is too simple. I would actually expect this to help Dalinar long term. Â Depending on how she hears about it and with what details, Shallan could certainly react badly at first but if she hears Adolin describe it I would expect her to compare his situation to when Nan Balat finally stood to his father (and got his leg broken) - there's actually some interesting parallels there between the situation with Adolin/Sadeas and Balat/Lin, though obviously Adolin is a much more skilled fighter so the end result is different. Â Hmm, I haven't thought about it that way. Adolin could play the Balat/Lin card, but he'd have to very careful of his wording. He doesn't know enough about Shallan and might miss the opportunity. However, I wonder if he and Balat would get along, that could soften Shallan's reaction. Â So long as Balat doesn't burn any of Adolin's clothes, otherwise Adolin will kill him too, and that'll be how his relationship with Shallan ends and he gets exiled. Â
Guest Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 Is that really the worst possible crime a lighteyes of his rank can do? I don't remember anyone saying so. Â Â Honestly, I don't know, but seeing how the lighteyes generally behaved I would think they'd consider murdering a highprince as a worst crime than murdering a darkeye.... Just look at Roshone, We had a whole argument on Roshone and Dalinar's potential guiltiness in Kal's family misgivings. Dalinar was ready to demote Roshone the tenth dahn and have him work as a tener. He didn't do it because of Elhokar. Â What was Roshone's crime again? He was indirectly responsible for the death of two darkeyed people by unjustly imprisoning them. He did not held the knife nor did he killed them himself. Â Adolin stabbed a knife into one of the most important person on Roshar. Â That is a much more worst crime than Roshone. So of course, Dalinar will most probably disown Adolin. I would be so bold as to say he may strip him of his rank and titles, demote him to the tenth dahn. After that Elhokar would outright banish him. Awfully sad, but it still remains the most probable outcome, unless events happen to change this course, which I hope they will because I do not want Adolin to be banish all the way across Roshar, alone. Â Â Â Hmm, I haven't thought about it that way. Adolin could play the Balat/Lin card, but he'd have to very careful of his wording. He doesn't know enough about Shallan and might miss the opportunity. However, I wonder if he and Balat would get along, that could soften Shallan's reaction. Â So long as Balat doesn't burn any of Adolin's clothes, otherwise Adolin will kill him too, and that'll be how his relationship with Shallan ends and he gets exiled. Â Â I don't know.... Adolin does not know about Balat and based on what we know of him, I think he would be more prone to take full responsibilities for his actions. Â I have been wondering about the brothers... I think Adolin will be very excited to meet his future brothers in laws: more kid brothers to tease. I would love to see Jushu trying to teach Adolin all about his gaming and his vices....
Aleksiel Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 Honestly, I don't know, but seeing how the lighteyes generally behaved I would think they'd consider murdering a highprince as a worst crime than murdering a darkeye.... Just look at Roshone, We had a whole argument on Roshone and Dalinar's potential guiltiness in Kal's family misgivings. Dalinar was ready to demote Roshone the tenth dahn and have him work as a tener. He didn't do it because of Elhokar. Â What was Roshone's crime again? He was indirectly responsible for the death of two darkeyed people by unjustly imprisoning them. He did not held the knife nor did he killed them himself. Â Adolin stabbed a knife into one of the most important person on Roshar. Â That is a much more worst crime than Roshone. So of course, Dalinar will most probably disown Adolin. I would be so bold as to say he may strip him of his rank and titles, demote him to the tenth dahn. After that Elhokar would outright banish him. Awfully sad, but it still remains the most probable outcome, unless events happen to change this course, which I hope they will because I do not want Adolin to be banish all the way across Roshar, alone. Â I guess we read Dalinar differently then, because I don't see him disowning Adolin and stripping him of his title. Â As for the crime - I might agree killing your own highprince could be the worst possible crime to lighteyes, but killing a rival highprince is politics. Preferably done in secret and by professionals, but so long as Adolin doesn't officially admit, it's acceptable. If Adolin refrains from making a public confession, he should be fine even if everybody knows he did it.
Guest Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 I guess we read Dalinar differently then, because I don't see him disowning Adolin and stripping him of his title. Â As for the crime - I might agree killing your own highprince could be the worst possible crime to lighteyes, but killing a rival highprince is politics. Preferably done in secret and by professionals, but so long as Adolin doesn't officially admit, it's acceptable. If Adolin refrains from making a public confession, he should be fine even if everybody knows he did it. Â I am honestly thorn between thinking Dalinar will act as you suggest or as I suggest. I agree it would be unbelievably harsh of Dalinar to do this to his own son, but it is not so much out of character... He does put Alethkar before all and he has been known to put his heart's desires last. Â Let's say Dalinar does not go ballistic on Adolin, he still has to punish him... What would be a fitting punishment you think? Â I agree that as long as Adolin does not admit to anything, he won't be trialed, unless evidences are found to link him to the crime. I think Ialai will try VERY hard to do just so. If it fails, then she will try to undermine (kill) Adolin one way or another. Sadeas was unto him afterall... It is only logical for her to continue.
Aleksiel Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 I am honestly thorn between thinking Dalinar will act as you suggest or as I suggest. I agree it would be unbelievably harsh of Dalinar to do this to his own son, but it is not so much out of character... He does put Alethkar before all and he has been known to put his heart's desires last.  Let's say Dalinar does not go ballistic on Adolin, he still has to punish him... What would be a fitting punishment you think?  I agree that as long as Adolin does not admit to anything, he won't be trialed, unless evidences are found to link him to the crime. I think Ialai will try VERY hard to do just so. If it fails, then she will try to undermine (kill) Adolin one way or another. Sadeas was unto him afterall... It is only logical for her to continue.  I think reward would be more fitting than a punishment  Well, there's no trial by combat since shardbearers are either executed or let free. So no prison either. I don't think Adolin will be executed, so he'll suffer no legal punishment imo. I don't see Adolin running away, nor Dalinar exiling him... Honestly, I don't know. I'm gonna have to think about it some more. Or may be I'm wrong and Elhokar will sentence Adolin to death? But Renarin will bust him out Radiant style. That would be cool.
Guest Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 I think reward would be more fitting than a punishment  Well, I hate to disagree with you but... Not going to happen I think however the common people will rejoiced upon hearing the news. It may propel Adolin to the status of near hero for being brave enough to defy law and rightly knife the guy, with his own hand as opposed to hiring assassins.   Well, there's no trial by combat since shardbearers are either executed or let free. So no prison either. I don't think Adolin will be executed, so he'll suffer no legal punishment imo. I don't see Adolin running away, nor Dalinar exiling him... Honestly, I don't know. I'm gonna have to think about it some more. Or may be I'm wrong and Elhokar will sentence Adolin to death? But Renarin will bust him out Radiant style. That would be cool.  Which is why I think Dalinar will take Adolin's shards from him to serve both as a punishment and as protection. He can easily escape the death sentence if he is not a shardbearer anymore.  I do see Adolin running away, so I guess we disagree there. It wouldn't be out of character. Adolin does what he believes is right. He follows his heart, but what is there to follow when his entire being is in turmoil? We know one of his main motivation is to protect Dalinar, as all cost. So what if he comes to the conclusion his presence endangers Dalinar by putting blame on the Kohlin's household? What if he convinces himself he is expendable? The scapegoat unto which Dalinar may assert his authority. It would be in character for him to go down this line of thought. And it would propel him to do something as stupid as running away, although there is not much to run to in Urithiru  Elhokar is a whinny temperamental over-grown teenager that lacks a personality. I don't know how he feels about his little cousin, so proeminient with the sword, so well liked/loved by most people... We see how jealous he was of Kaladin. Could he muster the same feeling for one of his family? I guess I could see Elhokar ordering such a thing, but Dalinar will never go for this. No matter how mad he is, he will not stand while his son is being executed. I agree it would be nice if Renarin turns out being the one "saving" his brother.
Aleksiel Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 Which is why I think Dalinar will take Adolin's shards from him to serve both as a punishment and as protection. He can easily escape the death sentence if he is not a shardbearer anymore.  Adolin didn't kill Sadeas with his Blade, how would taking away  Adolin's shards protect anyone? He'd stay in prison if Dalinar commands him to.
Guest Posted July 3, 2014 Posted July 3, 2014 Adolin didn't kill Sadeas with his Blade, how would taking away  Adolin's shards protect anyone? He'd stay in prison if Dalinar commands him to.  Because if Dalinar takes his shards away, he is not a shardbearer anymore. Therefore, he can be trial like a normal men. Sharbearers are not trialed nor put into prison: they are executed. By removing them, Dalinar protects Adolin.
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