Twinborn Combos

[IndigoAjah]

Tricky to resource it, but A Atium and F Steel. Future sight allows you to minimalise use of speed and Speed allows to minimalise use of Atium, even if they burn Atium too you can move too fast for them to react for one instant. Marsh and TLR both underused this combo

[Pathfinder]

Exactly.

And, with the brass, even if you didn't have flaming armor, you could still light your hands on fire, which would be AWESOME in a fist-fight.

Sorry to burst your bubble more, but unless you are referring to martial arts that involve grappling, having heated hands would not matter much in a fist fight. When you punch someone, you aren't leaving your fists connected to their face long enough for the heat to burn them.

[ChickenPlague]

I have a suspicion that Chromium stores intuition. Luck just seems too random. To function properly the ability would have to decide what the best possibility is (or worst if you're storing) and then cause that to happen through probability.

[The_Dark_Fungi]

Sorry to burst your bubble more, but unless you are referring to martial arts that involve grappling, having heated hands would not matter much in a fist fight. When you punch someone, you aren't leaving your fists connected to their face long enough for the heat to burn them.

Is punching the only method of fighting in hand-to-hand combat? I don't think anyone rational is going to fight someone who can light their hands on fire, even if, logically, it won't burn them. Part of the advantage is fear factor, but their clothes can light on fire, which is the real advantage. And their hair. And not to mention that if you do grab them, their skin will burn and it will hurt a ton, incapacitating them. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that in a fistfight you would have a different technique because all it takes is sustained contact, not brute force.

[Pathfinder]

Is punching the only method of fighting in hand-to-hand combat? I don't think anyone rational is going to fight someone who can light their hands on fire, even if, logically, it won't burn them. Part of the advantage is fear factor, but their clothes can light on fire, which is the real advantage. And their hair. And not to mention that if you do grab them, their skin will burn and it will hurt a ton, incapacitating them. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that in a fistfight you would have a different technique because all it takes is sustained contact, not brute force.

You literally said fist fight. That is why unless we are including a martial arts focused on grapples, which would maximize the surface body contact to cook the foe in your arms, it wouldn't be of much use. The whole point of boxing is to throw your fist out for either quick jabs, or heavy slugs. Both involve extending the arm, contacting the enemy, retracting said arm, and reasserting the defensive posture to prevent the returned attacks. If the hands were hot enough to harm someone just by being close to the face, it would also heat the air enough for the air to burn the firesoul. he is immune to his own heat, but as pointed out, superheating the air around it would burn you. 

Edited April 7, 2016 by Pathfinder

[IndigoAjah]

I have a suspicion that Chromium stores intuition. Luck just seems too random. To function properly the ability would have to decide what the best possibility is (or worst if you're storing) and then cause that to happen through probability.

I have a suspicion that Chromium stores intuition. Luck just seems too random. To function properly the ability would have to decide what the best possibility is (or worst if you're storing) and then cause that to happen through probability.

Or it can be manipulated by the user, who has to consciously decide what the "lucky outcome" is? Think he's been inspired by Matrim Cauthon on this particular ability, though probably less OP than that.

Khriss thinks it is Luck that is stored, right? But apparently, she can be wrong, think yhere is a WOB on that to be fair

 

You literally said fist fight. That is why unless we are including a martial arts focused on grapples, which would maximize the surface body contact to cook the foe in your arms, it wouldn't be of much use. The whole point of boxing is to throw your fist out for either quick jabs, or heavy slugs. Both involve extending the arm, contacting the enemy, retracting said arm, and reasserting the defensive posture to prevent the returned attacks. If the hands were hot enough to harm someone just by being close to the face, it would also heat the air enough for the air to burn the firesoul. he is immune to his own heat, but as pointed out, superheating the air around it would burn you.

Would it, technically? If the air were ablaze, you would get the chemical reactions that high temp oxygen has and this could cause harm. If it's merely very hot (and hot enough to burn skin doesn't need to be that hot), then all you have is hot air rather than oxidation reactions. The only way this is causing harm is by transfer of heat. The air can only transfer heat to something less hot. By definition the fire soul is more hot than the air, in order to heat it (plus the hot air rises and thus the air around the fire soul is constantly replaced by cooler air). The hot air cannot pass heat towards the firesoul to cause harm until the firesoul starts to cool. As long as he doesn't do this, no external heat could possibly harm him, only the indirect reactions of external heat. The only thing that I can see being an issue is 1) dehydration- depending how the body reacts to the power this could be a limiter 2) cooling the firesoul too quickly- if they don't cool VERY gradually, as the air around them rises away, they could be burnt by the air

 

 

Though to be fair, it's been a while since Physics has been something I do properly, so it's possible that I might have misapplied the Laws of Thermodynamics. If I have, or someone thinks I have, I'm sorry

Edited April 7, 2016 by IndigoAjah

[The_Dark_Fungi]

Sorry to burst your bubble more, but unless you are referring to martial arts that involve grappling, having heated hands would not matter much in a fist fight. When you punch someone, you aren't leaving your fists connected to their face long enough for the heat to burn them.

Is punching the only method of fighting in hand-to-hand combat? I don't think anyone rational is going to fight someone who can light their hands on fire, even if, logically, it won't burn them. Part of the advantage is fear factor, but their clothes can light on fire, which is the real advantage. And their hair. And not to mention that if you do grab them, their skin will burn and it will hurt a ton, incapacitating them. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that in a fistfight you would have a different technique because all it takes is sustained contact, not brute force.

[The_Dark_Fungi]

Sorry to burst your bubble more, but unless you are referring to martial arts that involve grappling, having heated hands would not matter much in a fist fight. When you punch someone, you aren't leaving your fists connected to their face long enough for the heat to burn them.

Is punching the only method of fighting in hand-to-hand combat? I don't think anyone rational is going to fight someone who can light their hands on fire, even if, logically, it won't burn them. Part of the advantage is fear factor, but their clothes can light on fire, which is the real advantage. And their hair. And not to mention that if you do grab them, their skin will burn and it will hurt a ton, incapacitating them. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that in a fistfight you would have a different technique because all it takes is sustained contact, not brute force.

[Pathfinder]

Or it can be manipulated by the user, who has to consciously decide what the "lucky outcome" is? Think he's been inspired by Matrim Cauthon on this particular ability, though probably less OP than that.

Khriss thinks it is Luck that is stored, right? But apparently, she can be wrong, think yhere is a WOB on that to be fair

 

Would it, technically? If the air were ablaze, you would get the chemical reactions that high temp oxygen has and this could cause harm. If it's merely very hot (and hot enough to burn skin doesn't need to be that hot), then all you have is hot air rather than oxidation reactions. The only way this is causing harm is by transfer of heat. The air can only transfer heat to something less hot. By definition the fire soul is more hot than the air, in order to heat it (plus the hot air rises and thus the air around the fire soul is constantly replaced by cooler air). The hot air cannot pass heat towards the firesoul to cause harm until the firesoul starts to cool. As long as he doesn't do this, no external heat could possibly harm him, only the indirect reactions of external heat. The only thing that I can see being an issue is 1) dehydration- depending how the body reacts to the power this could be a limiter 2) cooling the firesoul too quickly- if they don't cool VERY gradually, as the air around them rises away, they could be burnt by the air

 

 

Though to be fair, it's been a while since Physics has been something I do properly, so it's possible that I might have misapplied the Laws of Thermodynamics. If I have, or someone thinks I have, I'm sorry

Having played with fire myself, it takes five seconds of sustained exposure to a standard flame to get a second degree burn. To clarify, a first degree burn, is when you have a flare of flame, that burns away your hair and the dead layer of skin of your flesh. You are fine and suffer no damage except singed hair. That is how fire throwers play with fire without getting burned. The only flammable substance is the stimulant. Flesh itself isn't "flammable". People are set on fire because of gasoline, clothes, etc. You would have to hold fire to flesh for an extended period of time to burn it enough to do damage, or to ignite it. That is why I said you would have to make your hands hot enough that it heats the air around the hands. You touch a red hot poker, it is going to take away some skin. Now take a red hot poker, and place your hand next to it. Not on it. near it. The radiating heat will burn you. So my point is, to get your hands hot enough that you would do damage purely on contact for the second your fist contacts another's face, it would have to be hot enough to be damaging to you based on what we know regarding the power. Now I don't have a degree in physics myself, so it could be given the size of the area, the heat transfer would not be enough, or a host of other things. I am just going on my own experience handling fire, and spending time with fire throwers. 

Edited April 7, 2016 by Pathfinder

[The_Dark_Fungi]

Sorry I posted that three times. I lagged and spammed the post button.

You literally said fist fight. That is why unless we are including a martial arts focused on grapples, which would maximize the surface body contact to cook the foe in your arms, it wouldn't be of much use. The whole point of boxing is to throw your fist out for either quick jabs, or heavy slugs. Both involve extending the arm, contacting the enemy, retracting said arm, and reasserting the defensive posture to prevent the returned attacks. If the hands were hot enough to harm someone just by being close to the face, it would also heat the air enough for the air to burn the firesoul. he is immune to his own heat, but as pointed out, superheating the air around it would burn you.

Yeah, that was my fault. I meant to say hand-to-hand combat. Poor choice of words on my part.

Would it, technically? If the air were ablaze, you would get the chemical reactions that high temp oxygen has and this could cause harm. If it's merely very hot (and hot enough to burn skin doesn't need to be that hot), then all you have is hot air rather than oxidation reactions. The only way this is causing harm is by transfer of heat. The air can only transfer heat to something less hot. By definition the fire soul is more hot than the air, in order to heat it (plus the hot air rises and thus the air around the fire soul is constantly replaced by cooler air). The hot air cannot pass heat towards the firesoul to cause harm until the firesoul starts to cool. As long as he doesn't do this, no external heat could possibly harm him, only the indirect reactions of external heat. The only thing that I can see being an issue is 1) dehydration- depending how the body reacts to the power this could be a limiter 2) cooling the firesoul too quickly- if they don't cool VERY gradually, as the air around them rises away, they could be burnt by the air

 

 

Though to be fair, it's been a while since Physics has been something I do properly, so it's possible that I might have misapplied the Laws of Thermodynamics. If I have, or someone thinks I have, I'm sorry

No, you got it right. However, you forgot about something very important that I explained in my first post. If the Firesoul heats up, he also heats up the air around him. Because of the Laws of Thermodynimics, the heat would also go to the air around the air. If the Firesoul taps one vessel and fills another at the same time, he should create an aura of heat slightly above the skin and sustain it much longer.

I have a suspicion that Chromium stores intuition. Luck just seems too random. To function properly the ability would have to decide what the best possibility is (or worst if you're storing) and then cause that to happen through probability.

I agree that it probably isn't luck. (I don't believe in it). But, I have a theory of my own. I propose that when one uses chromium, they very slightly adjust the molecules around them in their favor. This is all subconscious, and can only change things slightly, but the more you use, the more it can change. This would explain why people thought it was luck, because it couldn't stop someone stabbing you, but it could slightly change air currents to avoid being hit by bullets. Furthermore, this would also slightly alter your decisions so that you could bet on things. Rather than stop a train before it hits you, this power might instead cause the train conductor to go 1% slower so you could get out of the way, or cause a delay so the train would leave late.

Or it can be manipulated by the user, who has to consciously decide what the "lucky outcome" is? Think he's been inspired by Matrim Cauthon on this particular ability, though probably less OP than that.

Khriss thinks it is Luck that is stored, right? But apparently, she can be wrong, think there is a WOB on that to be fair.

I have no idea who Matrom is, but I'm assuming he's in one of the later novels (I've only read to AofL). But I think it would be subconcious thing, as explained above.

[The_Dark_Fungi]

Having played with fire myself, it takes five seconds of sustained exposure to a standard flame to get a second degree burn. To clarify, a first degree burn, is when you have a flare of flame, that burns away your hair and the dead layer of skin of your flesh. You are fine and suffer no damage except singed hair. That is how fire throwers play with fire without getting burned. The only flammable substance is the stimulant. Flesh itself isn't "flammable". People are set on fire because of gasoline, clothes, etc. You would have to hold fire to flesh for an extended period of time to burn it enough to do damage, or to ignite it. That is why I said you would have to make your hands hot enough that it heats the air around the hands. You touch a red hot poker, it is going to take away some skin. Now take a red hot poker, and place your hand next to it. Not on it. near it. The radiating heat will burn you. So my point is, to get your hands hot enough that you would do damage purely on contact for the second your fist contacts another's face, it would have to be hot enough to be damaging to you based on what we know regarding the power. Now I don't have a degree in physics myself, so it could be given the size of the area, the heat transfer would not be enough, or a host of other things. I am just going on my own experience handling fire, and spending time with fire throwers.

Kinda concerned for your mental health, but thanks for the clarification. I was actually just wondering a heat/time ratio. So HA! Punching would be sufficient. Although I feel nobody is reading my explanation on why the Firesoul WOULDN'T get burned.

[Eki]

I have no idea who Matrom is, but I'm assuming he's in one of the later novels (I've only read to AofL). But I think it would be subconcious thing, as explained above.

Matrim is from The Wheel of Time.

[Pathfinder]

Kinda concerned for your mental health, but thanks for the clarification. I was actually just wondering a heat/time ratio. So HA! Punching would be sufficient. Although I feel nobody is reading my explanation on why the Firesoul WOULDN'T get burned.

Lol I have always been curiouser than a cat, but harder to kill than a cockroach. It has certainly has expanded my horizons over the years. Picked up some tricks on a drive across country to Burning Man in Black Rock City, Nevada 6 years ago. 

 

Now as to your point regarding the firesoul not getting burned. It is a very clever idea, so upvote and props on that. But I am unsure if it is possible for a ferring/feruchemist to tap and store the same ability at the same time even if it is separate metal minds. At least I do not recall it ever happening in the books. That does not necessarily mean it is impossible. Just I haven't seen any application to say it is possible. 

Edited April 7, 2016 by Pathfinder

[IndigoAjah]

Having played with fire myself, it takes five seconds of sustained exposure to a standard flame to get a second degree burn. To clarify, a first degree burn, is when you have a flare of flame, that burns away your hair and the dead layer of skin of your flesh. You are fine and suffer no damage except singed hair. That is how fire throwers play with fire without getting burned. The only flammable substance is the stimulant. Flesh itself isn't "flammable". People are set on fire because of gasoline, clothes, etc. You would have to hold fire to flesh for an extended period of time to burn it enough to do damage, or to ignite it. That is why I said you would have to make your hands hot enough that it heats the air around the hands. You touch a red hot poker, it is going to take away some skin. Now take a red hot poker, and place your hand next to it. Not on it. near it. The radiating heat will burn you. So my point is, to get your hands hot enough that you would do damage purely on contact for the second your fist contacts another's face, it would have to be hot enough to be damaging to you based on what we know regarding the power. Now I don't have a degree in physics myself, so it could be given the size of the area, the heat transfer would not be enough, or a host of other things. I am just going on my own experience handling fire, and spending time with fire throwers. 

But if your hands are the source of heat for the other person's skin/the air/whatever, you CANNOT according to the Laws of Physics be damaged directly by it, because the heat cannot transfer back towards you. Heat cannot move to something hotter, and your body is de facto hotter than what it is heating, so even if they would be hot enough to kill you, they cannot because the heat cannot go towards you. 

[Pathfinder]

But if your hands are the source of heat for the other person's skin/the air/whatever, you CANNOT according to the Laws of Physics be damaged directly by it, because the heat cannot transfer back towards you. Heat cannot move to something hotter, and your body is de facto hotter than what it is heating, so even if they would be hot enough to kill you, they cannot because the heat cannot go towards you. 

But that is where this stuff gets wonky. So you are only immune to your own body heat, but because your own body heat heats the air, as long as your own body is hotter than the air, then no heat is transfered back to you as exterior and then damaging. But then what would happen if you reach a temperature in body heat in lets say an enclosed room, so then hypothetically the room reaches the same temperature as your body (assuming you have some means to still breathe). Then still nothing would happen because it would reach homestatis? But what keeps coming into my head is the surrounding head is cognitively separate from you. But based on what you said, that still doesn't matter. So then hypothetically in order to not be burned, it would be similar to what fungi said, just not at the same time. You would tap till your heated up. Heat up whatever you heat up, resulting in air around you heating up. Then quickly switch to storing, so the resulting heated air around you would store instead of burn you till it cools down too, and then you could go back to normal. Though there would be still the whole breathing problem, and also worrying about your metalminds melting off your body to a puddle on the floor. 

Edited April 7, 2016 by Pathfinder

[IndigoAjah]

There would definitely be problems and indirect damage, and the metalminds would be one of those, as would breathing and hydration. But not direct damage. ANd in that room, heat would leak out so it SHOULD never reach the point of homeostasis

[Pathfinder]

So this made me think of another idea. Assuming I understand correctly, then just selectively heading your hands would be a problem because your wrists or holding them any where near your body would cause burns right? Since the other parts of your body are cooler. So if that is true, here is another thought I had. Your body isn't heated evenly over its entire length. Your core has a higher temperature than your extremities for instance. So increasing your body heat would probably hold the same distribution right? Which at a certain temperature would result in the same issue as heating up just one part of your body with training. Or you would have to train to learn how to heat every inch of yourself the same amount at the same time.but would that even work? I know a skilled ferring could just increase their strength in theirnarm, but our body heat originates from our core and circulates out. So how would heating just your hand while your core stays comparatively cool even work?

[The_Dark_Fungi]

The breathing problem keeps coming up, but what if you were a full Feruchemical and you used Cadmium and Brass? Problem solved.

[The_Dark_Fungi]

You're all missing the point of 98F. If the body gets too hot, it doesn't work. No, you wouldn't burn, you would overheat. It's like a car engine. That's why you would also need to fill your brass: to not overheat.

Edited April 8, 2016 by The_Dark_Fungi

[Pathfinder]

The breathing problem keeps coming up, but what if you were a full Feruchemical and you used Cadmium and Brass? Problem solved.

If it was a full feruchemist, then there would be no problem at all as any damage could be healed from gold, and as you said he could tap breath

 

You're all missing the point of 98F. If the body gets too hot, it doesn't work. No, you wouldn't burn, you would overheat. It's like a car engine. That's why you would also need to fill your brass

But like I said, to the best of my recollection (correct me if I am wrong), but we have not seen anywhere where a ferring or feruchemist could tap an attribute from one metal mind, and immediately store it in another at the exact same time. So we do not even know it is possible to accomplish. Now if you tapped only, till you heated up your whole body (which potentially could be still be a problem as, as I said, your body does not evenly distribute your body heat since it starts from your core and extends out, check out a heat camera and you will see what I mean) then you would have to switch to storing only till you cooled down and then you could return to normal. Though the sudden changes in temperature could lead to a whole other host of issues. 

 

edit: but this is me looking at the issue intuitively. If there is someone with more knowledge in physics like IndigoAjah, or more knowledge in biology that can say why it wouldn't work that way, then I defer to you. 

Edited April 8, 2016 by Pathfinder

[The_Dark_Fungi]

Um... I understand Sanderson wants to include as much real science as possible, but who's saying that Feruchemical heating and cooling is the same as real cooling and heating. Copperminds can store specified memories. Can brass not store specified heat?

Now to my original idea. Camacazi. I mean, you would need ton of brass to store the heat, but it seems like a glass cannon.

Some people are saying to use duralumin to make you socially invisible, but you would need a lot of duralumin to store it. That wouldn't work, but what about the opposite? Making yourself so likable that nobody cares what you do? A duralumin compounder would not only make you 9x more likable, you could also use allomantic duralumin to multiply your social standing. You could beat anyone in a fight because they would join you.

[Pathfinder]

Um... I understand Sanderson wants to include as much real science as possible, but who's saying that Feruchemical heating and cooling is the same as real cooling and heating. Copperminds can store specified memories. Can brass not store specified heat?

Now to my original idea. Camacazi. I mean, you would need ton of brass to store the heat, but it seems like a glass cannon.

Some people are saying to use duralumin to make you socially invisible, but you would need a lot of duralumin to store it. That wouldn't work, but what about the opposite? Making yourself so likable that nobody cares what you do? A duralumin compounder would not only make you 9x more likable, you could also use allomantic duralumin to multiply your social standing. You could beat anyone in a fight because they would join you.

Thing is I cannot say yes or no. We just haven't seen it to know if it could. And we also haven't seen signs to say it couldn't. The only thing supporting it, is a WoB which admitted if a ferring or feruchemist trained enough, he or she could use pewter to tap or store strength from just their arm. Now is this restricted to certain attributes? Just like how there is an entire thread trying to figure out why copper theoretically works differently than every other attribute. A person could exercise their arm, and only their arm, making it more muscular than the rest of their body, so for me at least, storing and tapping just the arm isn't far fetched. But unless you wear a T shirt, with heavy gloves, your core is not going to be cooler than your hands. I dunno. It runs into the same problem as, as you brought up, duralumin. No one knows yet how it works. People assume by storing connection people don't notice you and by tapping it everyone loves you, but we haven't seen it actually used yet. The only place we have seen it yet is:

 

In Bands of Mourning, where it is used in order to understand another cultures language. That was an application I didn't see anyone on the boards think of. Meanwhile the more Realmatic savy on the boards saw the use of nicrosil long before it was ever shown in book

 

So basically what I am trying to say is this. If you like the idea and think it is cool, enjoy. I do not know that it works the way you think, but geek out on your head canon till we see otherwise 

[The_Dark_Fungi]

Woah! That's a cool use for duralumin. Never thought of it. Maybe the babel fish have Feruchemy. XD. Seriously though, duralumin might be the third best compounder.

[Pathfinder]

Woah! That's a cool use for duralumin. Never thought of it. Maybe the babel fish have Feruchemy. XD. Seriously though, duralumin might be the third best compounder.

Just keep in mind that is a rather big spoiler in Bands of Mourning, and this is the general mistborn thread. Which is why I spoiler tagged it. 

[The_Dark_Fungi]

K. Is it a problem that I've only read the first four books? I don't want any spoilers that are TOO big.