Ranged surgebinding

[Frustration]

So, we see in several places that Syl is able to use full lashings, and I found this WoB, saying that Windspren can as well

Spoiler

Darkness (paraphrased)

Was it Syl or was it Kaladin himself that made things stick to his hands in the beginning? Are honorspren able to use a rudimentary form of the adhesion surge?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, they are. Windspren are too!

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/128/#e3260

 

 

Which got me thinking, what if every set of spren is capable of using one of their surges to some extent?

If that is the case then the spren and surges would line up like so, assuming that each spren can only use one without a radiant.

 

Honorspren: Adhesion

Highspren: Gravitation

Ashspren: Division

Cultivationspren: Abrasion

Mistspren: Progression

Liespren: Illumination

Inkspren: Transformation

Lightspren: Transportation

Peakspren: Cohesion

Bondsmithspren: Tension

 

Now I don't know about Bondsmith spren, given the oddness there, but looking at the other ones they seem to make some sense with the orders theming.

 

But if this is true, that means that there is at least one surge per order that can be used and applied at a distance from the radiant themselves.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

So, we see in several places that Syl is able to use full lashings, and I found this WoB, saying that Windspren can as well

I remember it was told in books that Windspren can do it sometimes.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Now I don't know about Bondsmith spren, given the oddness there, but looking at the other ones they seem to make some sense with the orders theming.

Well, Stormfather does connection on multiple occasions, he connects to people sending them visions even before bond with Dalinar. And whatever he is doing during Listeners transformation. Not a tension but they are weird.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

But if this is true, that means that there is at least one surge per order that can be used and applied at a distance from the radiant themselves.

Keep in mind that what Syl was able to do just made a small surface a little sticky, that's not a lot.

But that's a good idea. Bond with Radiant might make spren stronger in the surge usage. But I'm more interested if Syl or Windspren can also use gravitation. Because why does spren that grants both surges can use only one of them?

 

[NerdyAarakocra]

The Lightweaver spren are Cryptics.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

The Lightweaver spren are Cryptics.

That's what they like to be called.

The scientifically accurate term is liespren.

[NerdyAarakocra]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

That's what they like to be called.

The scientifically accurate term is liespren.

According to the Coppermind: "Cryptics are the personification of the underlying mathematical truths that govern Roshar and the cosmere."

[Frustration]

Just now, NerdyAarakocra said:

According to the Coppermind: "Cryptics are the personification of the underlying mathematical truths that govern Roshar and the cosmere."

Yes, and Jasnah says they would be called Liespren in Words of Radiance.

[NerdyAarakocra]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Yes, and Jasnah says they would be called Liespren in Words of Radiance.

In all other contexts they're referred to as Cryptics. Jasnah has also referred to them as Cryptics.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

In all other contexts they're referred to as Cryptics. Jasnah has also referred to them as Cryptics.

And?

I wanted to call them that, and it's an accurate term.

[NerdyAarakocra]

Just now, Frustration said:

And?

I wanted to call them that, and it's an accurate term.

Alright, I recognize that this is a really nitpicky argument and I should just back off, but:

They're not spren of lies!

They like lies. That's not the same thing. Liespren is not an accurate term! They are spren of mathematics!

*Fades silently into shadows without contributing anything meaningful to the discussion*

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

And?

I wanted to call them that, and it's an accurate term.

Not really, any more than it would be accurate to call Honorspren Windspren or a Cultivationspren a Plantspren. It's an oversimplification.

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

Alright, I recognize that this is a really nitpicky argument and I should just back off, but:

They're not spren of lies!

They like lies. That's not the same thing. Liespren is not an accurate term! They are spren of mathematics!

*Fades silently into shadows without contributing anything meaningful to the discussion*

No spren is made of what they are.

Windspren aren't made of wind, they are attracted to it. Flamespren aren't made of fire they are attracted to it.

Liespren aren't made of lies, they are attracted to them.

5 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Not really, any more than it would be accurate to call Honorspren Windspren or a Cultivationspren a Plantspren. It's an oversimplification.

Because they don't like the term?

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

Because they don't like the term?

It's an oversimplification, because they aren't liespren. They are intrigued by truth and lies, but Honorspren are attracted to the Wind and Highstorms, yet neither the term Windspren nor the term Stormspren is ever applied to them.

[NerdyAarakocra]

Just now, Frustration said:

No spren is made of what they are.

Windspren aren't made of wind, they are attracted to it. Flamespren aren't made of fire they are attracted to it.

Liespren aren't made of lies, they are attracted to them.

 

Because they don't like the term?

Clarification: I don't mean that they're made of lies. But I'm not going to call a windspren an 'Adhesionspren' because they can use Adhesion - why should I call a Cryptic a liepsren because they're attracted to lies? They're also attracted to mathematics and King Elhokar, so maybe we should be calling them Mathspren (Do those exist, or are they just Logicspren?) or Elhokarspren.

Also, it seems that if all of the Cryptics use the term Cryptic (which they do) and all of the other spren use the term Cryptic (which they do) and all of the Radiants use the term Cryptic (yep), and most of the fandom recognizes them as Cryptics (This is true) then it seems that we should calling them Cryptics.

Related to the actual topic, I think that you have a good point. We know that Pattern can sort of carry Shallan's illusions, and one could argue that the Stormfather binds the realms during a Highstorm, similar to when Dalinar creates a perpendicularity. Food for thought.

[Frustration]

14 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

It's an oversimplification, because they aren't liespren. They are intrigued by truth and lies, but Honorspren are attracted to the Wind and Highstorms, yet neither the term Windspren nor the term Stormspren is ever applied to them.

All spren react to the Highstorm, so that's not unusual.

And while they might like the winds, ultimately they are the Spren of Honor.

8 minutes ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

Clarification: I don't mean that they're made of lies. But I'm not going to call a windspren an 'Adhesionspren' because they can use Adhesion - why should I call a Cryptic a liepsren because they're attracted to lies? They're also attracted to mathematics and King Elhokar, so maybe we should be calling them Mathspren (Do those exist, or are they just Logicspren?) or Elhokarspren.

But you do call Windspren Windspren because they are attracted to the Wind.

8 minutes ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

Also, it seems that if all of the Cryptics use the term Cryptic (which they do) and all of the other spren use the term Cryptic (which they do) and all of the Radiants use the term Cryptic (yep), and most of the fandom recognizes them as Cryptics (This is true) then it seems that we should calling them Cryptics.

I do call them cryptics. When referring to them alone.

But if I'm making a list it feels wrong to have all but one of the items in the ___spren format, when I can format all of them the same way.

 

When wind blows Windspren come, when you light fire Flamespren come, when you feel Glory, Anger, Pain, anticipation, fear etc those spren come.

When you say a lie, what spren come?

Liespren.

There's no reason for them to be the only spren that don't follow the rule.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Frustration

[Treamayne]

Re: OP - Interesting theory, but I doubt it is the case. It is likely only possible before the First Oath, or we should have seen more of this behaviour from Syl since Way of Kings (especially in RoW when opening the lamps for the gems). ANd more likely, Honorspren are a special case since they are Honor-only (so possibly Cultivation-Spren may also do this by being Cultivation-only)

I too prefer to call them Liespren when in a list of mixed spren (and Dustbringers in a list of Radiants - whether they like Releasers or not). However. . .

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

When you say a lie, what spren come?

Liespren.

Ah, that is not the case.

An attracted spren is in the Cognitive and a small portion of it is visible in the Physical when it manifests in reaction to it's attracted emotion or environment (much like the tongues of the anticipation spren appearing as what the Alethi interpret as small flags - or the heads of the Glory Spren appearing as a small golden orb). None of the Sapient Spren that form the Nahel bond do that. A Cryptic in the Physical will react to a lie - but a random non-Radiant won't attract a Cryptic by lying.

Note: A nascent radiant's lies to themselves might be part of what allows a Cryptic to start the bond (see Shallan/Elhokar) but is certainly not required (see Tien).

Edited February 12, 2023 by Treamayne
Added note

[Frustration]

24 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Re: OP - Interesting theory, but I doubt it is the case. It is likely only possible before the First Oath, or we should have seen more of this behaviour from Syl since Way of Kings (especially in RoW when opening the lamps for the gems). 

Opening the lamps was a reverse lashing, not a full lashing, which is what we've seen. But I do agree, if it is possible, it is highly under utilized.

25 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Note: A nascent radiant's lies to themselves might be part of what allows a Cryptic to start the bond (see Shallan/Elhokar) but is certainly not required (see Tien).

Tien did have honesty problems, whether you would call them lies depends on your definition,

Spoiler

Questioner

You've said before that Tien was on the track to becoming a Lightweaver, before he, you know. What lie was he telling that was attracting a Cryptic?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a very good question. Tien was hiding a lot of belief that he was not a good person. That people didn't want to be around him, and things like this. He was hiding a lot of that, and he knew that people saw him as a burst of sunshine, and he didn't ever want them to not see him that way. That was really hard on him, as it is on a lot of people who are like Tien.

Questioner 2

But did he like rocks?

Brandon Sanderson

He really liked rocks. The fact that he never got to meet Rock is... and throw a bucket of water on him!

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/479/#e15236

 

 

 

 

 

[lacrossedeamon]

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

But if this is true, that means that there is at least one surge per order that can be used and applied at a distance from the radiant themselves.

Jasnah can Soulcast at range which might work on the principle you've proposed

[in Truth,watcher of tv]

I’m not sure about them using the Radiant spren, but perhaps the lesser spren they control after the 4th Oath allow them to Surgebind at a distance. We’ve only seen Kaladin control the wind with his windspren, but maybe after his 5th Ideal he can enable them to manipulate the composite Surges.

 

As for the other discussion, iirc Cryptics don’t like being called liespren because it’s inaccurate. Windspren embody the concept of wind and are drawn to it through sympathetic connection. Cryptics are drawn to a lie due to sapient curiosity, because it seems to defy their core concept. I your going to use a -spren name for them, I think patternspren would probably be the most accurate.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

And?

I wanted to call them that, and it's an accurate term.

How could you!!! Cryptics have every right to be referred to exactly how they want to. I am shocked at such a conversation happening in our open minded forum. I am offend! Offend I say!

[lacrossedeamon]

Yeah I assume the argument is based on similarities to either deadnaming or maybe a better comparison is the use of exonyms which is increasingly seen a problematic and often devolve into being considered slurs.

[cometaryorbit]

Do lightspren/Reachers recognize the name lightspren? Are Cryptics the only one that don't have a commonly used -spren name?

I don't think "liespren" is commonly used even by non-Cryptics, and actually I don't think Jasnah meant that "liespren" was a proper name for Cryptics. I think it was something she was using to explain what they were to Shallan since every other spren type Shallan would know about is named <thing they're attracted to>-spren and Cryptics tend to be attracted to people lying to themselves. Doesn't she say something like 'you can call them liespren' or something else a bit less definitive?

The <whatever>spren naming convention does seem to be used differently, and inconsistently, for sapient spren though. Honorspren are attracted to honorable people (by their definition), but the others either don't fit the "attracted to X" scheme at all (highspren, ashspren) or only metaphorically/symbolically (cultivationspren, inkspren). Honor/cultivationspren are presumably named after the Shards primarily, anyway. Others seem named based on their appearance (highspren being sky like, ashspren being burning). The Nightwatcher has no obvious connection to either night or watching.

Edited February 16, 2023 by cometaryorbit