Who would win, the Ultimate Cosmere free for all.

[lacrossedeamon]

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

And no invested abilities so you can't use any Dawnshard.

Dawnshards grant their own abilities and Investiture so I don’t need anything separate from that.

[alder24]

12 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Dawnshards grant their own abilities and Investiture so I don’t need anything separate from that.

Dawnshards are commands, they invest their vessels, but they do not come with invested abilities. They can't be used without some form of surgebinding or any other invested art.

Spoiler

Mycroft_canner

Did she use the command to manipulate the Sleepless? He seems pretty surprised it worked...

Brandon Sanderson

Rysn did not use the Dawnshard in this story, and indeed is incapable of it.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

From Coppermind about Dawnshard:

Quote

At their core, Dawnshards are nothing more than Commands of enormous power, but on their own they seem to be nearly useless. As all applications of Investiture require a Command and Intent, these Dawnshards cannot be used without a person that has access to Investiture trying to carry out some task. [...] In a person with no access to Investiture or an inanimate object, the Dawnshard's most dangerous powers are rendered useless and they are unable to truly present a threat to the lives of anyone. [...]
That being said, Dawnshards do confer a certain amount of Investiture on the person that holds them. Each Dawnshard grants both distinct abilities and shared Heightening-like attributes, such as an increased depth in color and sound perception.These Heightening-like effects can be achieved using any Dawnshard and are granted because they are great concentrations of Investiture [...]

 

[lacrossedeamon]

On their own… cannot be used without a person…

The Dawnshard is not on its own as I am providing the person.

In a person with no access to Investiture… Dawnshards do confer a certain amount of Investiture…

Negating the first part.

Each Dawnshard grants both distinct abilities and shared Heightening like attributes…

Sounds like Invested abilities to me.

As I am providing the Intent I can utilize the Command without needing any external ability. To extrapolate your WOB to anyone outside of Rysn is unsubstantiated.

[Tglassy]

This is Dragonball Z levels of insane, lol.  

If we're cheating the system, then I'm a 10th heightening Awakener even though I only took 1 point of Awakening.  Feels contrary to the spirit of the game, however.  

Everyone's a Fullborn Elantrean Radiant, because why wouldn't you?  

Question: if I wore Dead Plate, would that interfere with my own abilities?  

[alder24]

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

On their own… cannot be used without a person…

The Dawnshard is not on its own as I am providing the person.

Without the person that has access to investiture trying to carry out some task, not just a person. You providing the person with no access to investiture, and no task. Investiture that you already hold can't perform any task. 

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

In a person with no access to Investiture… Dawnshards do confer a certain amount of Investiture…

Negating the first part.

Each Dawnshard grants both distinct abilities and shared Heightening like attributes…

Sounds like Invested abilities to me.

Heightening-like attributes are passive, not active. And they are the result of great concentrations of Investiture. They don't perform any active tasks. At best you could supercharged one ability of one Dawnshard with another Dawnshard, but that's passive one, not active, this won't do much in a fight. You need kinetic investiture, you provide only static investiture. So yes, you would be invested via static investiture, and that would create Heightening-like attributes. But no kinetic investiture. You need invested arts to use Dawnshard full potential.

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

As I am providing the Intent I can utilize the Command without needing any external ability. To extrapolate your WOB to anyone outside of Rysn is unsubstantiated.

And Rysn can't provide the intent? She can. But she has no investiture that allows her do perform tasks. Your line of argumenting "Dawnshards provide investiture therefore I can use them with full power" are not what we see in books, and what we know from WoBs, as that would mean that Rysn also has investiture from Dawnshard that she can use fully, she can't and there are WoBs to prove that, and book says that she can't use it and she is not allowed to bond a spren. 

Spoiler

tskyeguye

From Rysn's observations in the epilogue, it seems like she has a lot of the same aspects of a Fifth Heightening/Returned at the least. Is this because her Dawnshard is particularly connected to Endowment or because the effects of a certain level of Investment result in similar effects?

Brandon Sanderson

The latter.

Skrimyt

Interesting. So are actively Surgebinding Radiants or metal-burning Allomancers just not Invested enough to gain those passive effects, or do they not experience perfect pitch/color/etc. because their Investiture is just not as tightly bound to their Spiritweb as Endowment's Breaths or a Dawnshard would be?

Brandon Sanderson

Be aware that the two groups you mention don't generally hold much Investiture themselves, at least not in large quantities over time. More in Surgebinding. Almost none in Allomancy.

But RAFO to specifics.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

 

4 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

If we're cheating the system, then I'm a 10th heightening Awakener even though I only took 1 point of Awakening.  Feels contrary to the spirit of the game, however.  

Everyone's a Fullborn Elantrean Radiant, because why wouldn't you?  

Question: if I wore Dead Plate, would that interfere with my own abilities?  

I don't know if regular Breaths can be stored in Nicrosil, as it stores ability to use investiture, Divine Breath can be, but regular I don't know.
I cheated the system while following its rules! I use hemalurgy in its intended way Hemalurgy is for cheating the system, to get something that you shouldn't have.

I don't think so - Coppermind WoK prolog - "It is also not possible for a wielder of an Honorblade to Surgebind while wearing Plate, due to interference from the gemstones." But you can remove gauntlet or very tip of your finger.

[Tglassy]

Yeah, but I'm wanting to be an edgedancer with my enetire body immune to wind resistance.  I think Dead Plate would nix that. 

So imma nix the dead plate and switch a few things up. 

Dead Plate is 24.  

Imma go from Lerasium Mistborn to regular, which is an additional 108 for a total of 132  points. 

As cool as Midnight Essence is, I think I'll nix being Aetherbound.  That's another 24 points for a total of 156. 

I will also give up my Aviar and my Larkin.  I feel like I went too broad the first time around.  So 173, now

Go big or Go Home.  Imma spend 150 to up my Radiant Oath to 5th lvl.  No idea what that entails, but I have Living Plate, and my Surges should be top notch.  I was going to do Edgedancer, but I realized Dustbringers also have Abrasion, as well as Division, and this is a fight, afterall.  So Imma change my order to Dustbringer. 

That gives me 23 points to work with.  I willl spend 20 on another Surge Fabriel, this one for Regrowth.  And I have 3 points.  I'll put them in with my Breaths, to up it to the 2nd Heightening, so 200 Breaths.  I still believe I can compound them, as Brandon RAFO'd when someone asked if that was possible.  But for now, this works.  

So now I am a Returned (5) Fullborn (384) Elantrean (200), and a 5th ideal Dustbringer (350).  This is a total of 935.  I have a Primer Cube (5), a Steelpushing Hemalurgic Spike (12), a Soulcaster and a Regrowth fabriel (40), and 200 breaths minimum, if not compounding thousands more. 

I think that works.  All my shenanigans from before are still there, and  I still have a lessor form of Regrowth. But I also have Division, Living Plate, and whatever else the 5th ideal gives.  I'm losing out on the Aether and some pets, but that's fine.    

 

[The Unknown Ajah he/him]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

I'm doing the same with @The Known Novel to get rid of Dawnshard users

I'm guessing the aforementioned no spikes WoB means I can't be Aluminum spiked properly, plus I am the same speed as you but I also have rioting Primer cubes plus extra tapping my speed while filling Brass allowing me to rewrite Soulstamps with changes to my cremlings and other various things at insane speeds.

Battle plan without Dawnshard because Dawnshards are boring:

Super-speed really fast and send out Cremlings with Steelminds and Ettmetal cubes, which can be charged with Division or Chromium and Lashed at enemies to make bombs. Since I have forty, they will be pretty hard to avoid and easy to retrieve. If possible I will put Aons on them so they explode more if someone tries to steal them. By the way, all of my Cremlings are outfitted in living plate, and my designated forger Cremling are inside of a circular shardblade. If you somehow kill all of them and survive my bombs, I just use soulstamps to make it so that I bred more earlier. I can also use A-gold to assist my forgeries. If I ever need to break out of my cage, I will just litter the walls of it with Aons to kill anything outside in a myriad of ways. 

[alder24]

1 minute ago, The Known Novel said:

I'm guessing the aforementioned no spikes WoB means I can't be Aluminum spiked properly,

Oh, yeah, I forgot you took a Sleepless.

How would Sleepless feruchemist work? Does every single hordling have to has its own metalminds or, just one of them? Probably everyone need its own. But zinc, copper or chromium etc? All cremlings combined makes up mind of a Sleepless, so does everyone needs zincmind of its own, or one is enough? Cremlings in living plates must look funny.

[The Unknown Ajah he/him]

26 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Oh, yeah, I forgot you took a Sleepless.

How would Sleepless feruchemist work? Does every single hordling have to has its own metalminds or, just one of them? Probably everyone need its own. But zinc, copper or chromium etc? All cremlings combined makes up mind of a Sleepless, so does everyone needs zincmind of its own, or one is enough? Cremlings in living plates must look funny.

I don't know, I'm kinda assuming both are individual, but Zinc might be weird. Actually, I think Zinc boosts a single hordeling, but in conglomerate raises overall mental speed.

Indeed, that's why I needed living plate instead of dead.

[lacrossedeamon]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Without the person that has access to investiture trying to carry out some task, not just a person. You providing the person with no access to investiture, and no task. Investiture that you already hold can't perform any task. 

I have access to Investiture via the Dawnshard and I have a task, win the competition.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Heightening-like attributes are passive, not active. And they are the result of great concentrations of Investiture. They don't perform any active tasks. At best you could supercharged one ability of one Dawnshard with another Dawnshard, but that's passive one, not active, this won't do much in a fight. You need kinetic investiture, you provide only static investiture. So yes, you would be invested via static investiture, and that would create Heightening-like attributes. But no kinetic investiture. You need invested arts to use Dawnshard full potential.

Do you have citations for static vs kinetic Investiture being a thing? Because it sounds like something you are making up just to win an argument. Any a Command like “Change” and whatever the other three would be sound like an active abilities to me. We know a Command acts just like a metal or Aon being a key to guide how Investiture acts.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

And Rysn can't provide the intent? She can. But she has no investiture that allows her do perform tasks. Your line of argumenting "Dawnshards provide investiture therefore I can use them with full power" are not what we see in books, and what we know from WoBs, as that would mean that Rysn also has investiture from Dawnshard that she can use fully, she can't and there are WoBs to prove that, and book says that she can't use it and she is not allowed to bond a spren. 

We don’t know the specific surrounding why Rysn can’t use the Dawnshard and if that carries over to other people so it can’t be used to refute points.

But honestly if you want on top of being a Sho Del (or Kandra would provide the extra arms I guess) with all 4 Dawnshards I can still use another 120 points and could give myself the Surge of Gravitation or Iron Compounding and just become a supermassive black hole but I don’t find that necessary. Having all 4 Dawnshards if possible will be like having the Infinity Gauntlet.

[alder24]

15 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

I have access to Investiture via the Dawnshard and I have a task, win the competition.

Investiture isn't equal to investiture. Soul is investiture, can it power Surgebinding? No. It already has different purpose. Task is work, winning the competition is not work, it's a goal. Task is active use of investiture, like e.g. soulcasting. Dawnshards act by supercharging that task. Dawnshard is investiture and investiture is what makes Dawnshard, you can't take it away, as it will stop being Dawnshard. The same way you can't take part of your soul and fuel Surgebinding. Or like you can't take part of the Spren and use it to fuel Surgebinding.

Quote

The most powerful forms of Surgebinding transcend traditional mortal understanding. All their greatest applications require Intent and a Command. Demands on a level no person could ever manage alone. To make such Commands, one must have the reasoning—the breadth of understanding—of a deity - Dawnshard ch 19

Dawnshard is not form of Surgebinding, is a Command and Command only. Dawnshard's holder provide intent, Dawnshard provide commnad, Surgeninding provides investiture performing task.  https://coppermind.net/wiki/Dawnshard

18 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Do you have citations for static vs kinetic Investiture being a thing? Because it sounds like something you are making up just to win an argument. Any a Command like “Change” and whatever the other three would be sound like an active abilities to me. We know a Command acts just like a metal or Aon being a key to guide how Investiture acts.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Investiture

Spoiler

The term Investiture^[2] has only seen in-world use by cosmere aware individuals or groups. Most who refer to Investiture use terminology specific to the world in which they reside; Feruchemists refer to the process of Investing a Metalmind as 'filling' or ‘storing’ and Windrunners refer to the process by which they create Lashings as 'infusing'.^[3] Most characters using this term understand more cogently that the cosmere encompasses worlds and systems of magic other than their own.

Kinetic Investiture is a term used for Investiture that is being used or expressed.^[4][5][6][7] This is the form of Investiture that is able to be detected by Seekers or absorbed by white sand.^[8][4][6]

Static Investiture is a term used for Investiture that is held within a sphere or other vessel, therefore not being in use.^[4][7] An object containing, or being made up of, Static Investiture is referred to as being Invested.^[9] Invested objects, such as Metalminds or Shardplate, resist being affected by Invested Arts.^[10]

Innate Investiture is a term used to refer to added Investiture to a being from birth, not including the natural Investiture that makes up the soul.^[11][2] Examples of Innate Investiture include the fragment of Preservation in all Scadrians, or BioChromatic Breath on Nalthis.^[12][13][2]

Unkeyed Investiture refers to Investiture that is unkeyed from any Connection or Identity to any Shard.^{[14][15][16][17][expand]}

 

22 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

We don’t know the specific surrounding why Rysn can’t use the Dawnshard and if that carries over to other people so it can’t be used to refute points.

We do know why, she doesn't have access to surges or any other invested arts. She can't use investiture. That's it. Sleepless specifically forbade her Surgebinding, so she couldn't use full power of the Dawnshard.

Spoiler

DracostarA

When the Sleepless refer to 'Surgebinding' with the Dawnshards do they mean it specifically in the Rosharan sense, or just because that is the word Roshar has for magic.

I.e. if this occurred on Scadrial would they still call it 'Surgebinding' or something else?

Brandon Sanderson

Surgebinding is kind of a catch-all for cosmere magic here, as you're assuming. Literally binding (using) surges (a word for what we would call types of magic.)

FirebreatherRay

So, Rosharans would look at an Allomancer or Feruchemist and say, "Yep, that there is a Surgebinder," correct?

Brandon Sanderson

Many Rosharans. Many would also just think of them as some kind of voidbringer or other mythological figure, from local lore.

HORSEthe

Wait, have mistborn been to roshar or am I reading this wrong?

Brandon Sanderson

What I mean is that someone like from, say, Bavland might have different stories they tell about creatures in the night than someone from Rira. So while they might call someone who uses strange abilities a surgebinder, they are probably more likely to talk about the local equivalent of something like a fae creature from local British lore.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

 

23 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

But honestly if you want on top of being a Sho Del (or Kandra would provide the extra arms I guess) with all 4 Dawnshards

Dawnshards are not a orbs you hold in hands. You become a Dawnshard when it chooses you and you accept it. It expands your spiritual web and soul. You don't hold them, you are them. I don't know if you could be more than 1 Dawnshard, but I don't think there is any WoB on that.

[Frustration he/him]

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

Atium spike to steal Bondsmith 5th ideal power from Stormfather! I cheated the system for 312 points! (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/135/#e3347)

Can you even stab the stormfather? And even if you could, I doubt a single spike can hold enough investiture for that.

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

I'm gonna use my first aluminum spike and steel compounding to spike @Frustration with the intent to remove his Bondsmithing powers but not Dawnshard (so I'm not triggering Dawnshard self-protection, if that's possible)

I'd doubt it, I don't think you can target specific powers with aluminum spikes. But who knows, maybe ypu can with the right technique.

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

Hmm can I steal the Dawnshard with Bondsmith connection?

Maybe?

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

I'm targeting you Frustration.  

Good luck then, Bondsmiths can naturally compress time 15 to one, with a Dawnshard I'm going to easily outpace even compounded steel with savanted bendalloy.

*Exists hyperspace behind you* "Nothing personal."

8 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Sho Del oddly missing from the list but probably 5 points (dragon is missing as well probably a lot more points).

We don't know enough to include them yet.

8 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Dawnshards grant their own abilities and Investiture so I don’t need anything separate from that.

Dawnshards require another set of invested abilities to work, while they will give some benefits, like noticing colors or tastes better, on their own you can't do things like crack planets or whatnot.

[alder24]

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Can you even stab the stormfather? And even if you could, I doubt a single spike can hold enough investiture for that.

Odium could be stabbed. Sprens too. Stormfather should work the same, he's still spren, and in that vision-like place, it might be possible. I'm not taking whole Stormfather, just tiny bit of him, this one ability. It can be a big spike, or if two are nesseserry, I can still fit it, by losing some other powers - and I still am net positive with points. However I don't think there is anything indicating that more spikes would be reqired. 

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Good luck then, Bondsmiths can naturally compress time 15 to one, with a Dawnshard I'm going to easily outpace even compounded steel with savanted bendalloy.

That spren's ability, so I can't do it with stolen power. Can you use Dawnshard on it? It's Stormfater doing it, not you, and that's effect of huge amounts of investiture focused in one place. But zinc compounding would easily keep up with regular compression, and you can't move or react to PR in the meantime, I can.

13 minutes ago, Frustration said:

*Exists hyperspace behind you* "Nothing personal."

I can boost my soulcasting and create wall behind me in just right time so you crush into it! Boosting soulcasting maybe even powerful enough to just soulcast invested people without any troubles. Not a Dawnshard, but all others. But dueling with Dawnshards is hardly possible, so Dawnshard probably wins this.

[Frustration he/him]

13 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That spren's ability, so I can't do it with stolen power. Can you use Dawnshard on it? It's Stormfater doing it, not you, and that's effect of huge amounts of investiture focused in one place. But zinc compounding would easily keep up with regular compression, and you can't move or react to PR in the meantime, I can.

No, that's a Bondsmith ability.

Spoiler

Questioner

At the end of Rhythm of War, we see Shard-induced time dilation; you bring a lot of Investiture into a place, and it slows down time.

Brandon Sanderson

It can also speed it up.

Questioner

How much Investiture would it take to dilate an area so that one area moves forward about fifteen years into the future while everything else remains? Like, they have ten minutes, everyone else goes fifteen years?

Brandon Sanderson

There’s a couple variables here. Number one is the length of the area, and how fast that fifteen years passes. If we want us to jump forward fifteen years, in how much time? Fifteen years compared to one year? Fifteen years compared to one minute? Fifteen years compared to one second? These are all different things. And, of course, the more you’re compressing and the larger the area, the more Investiture you’re requiring.

Questioner

Could two unchained Bondsmiths in the course of a duel do it?

Brandon Sanderson

Fifteen years? Fifteen years is gonna be a stretch for what they can get a hold of, but it depends. Unchained Bondsmith, unchained to (for instance) a deity that there is no longer a Vessel controlling that power in the way that it needs to have the limits on it is going to be able to access more than one where there was some Vessel there saying “no.” So there’s one factor in it. A Bondsmith can access a lot of power, as evidenced by the migration. The migration from Ashyn to Roshar happened with a Bondsmith powering some Elsecalling. And that allowed for some pretty crazy things. Getting an entire population moved through a portal across that much space is a lot of work and a lot of energy.

So what you’re asking, I think that’s stretching. Depends, again, on how long. Fifteen to one, not so hard. Fifteen years in a second is really hard and probably beyond what they have capacity to do.

I see what you’re doing there. You saw me talk around it.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

[lacrossedeamon]

Nothing presented has convinced me that Dawnshards can’t be used by themselves. But I guess that is a question for a spoiler stream.

[Gnmish]

Could a Sleepless hold a nahel bond? and if so, could every hordeling get a tiny set of plate and a tiny shard weapon?

I suspect fighting off a swarm of 1000 tiny Plated Windrunner hordelings with Shard tipped claws would be the end of pretty much anyone

So 

Sleepless (10), 5th Oath Windrunner (350)

Make him an Elantrian (200) and give him a Larkin (5) to ride and you still have enough for the 9th heightening (400) just for fun.

One note, I suspect you need to either state that the Larkin is a baby one, or increase the cost significantly. Dawnshard suggests the Larkin/Lancer will get to GOT-Dragon sized based on the skulls at the end.

"Chiri-Chiri will need to return every few years until she is fully grown"
"Fully grown?" Rysen said, turning again toward those skulls. "Oh storms..."

 

[The Unknown Ajah he/him]

5 minutes ago, Gnmish said:

Could a Sleepless hold a nahel bond? and if so, could every hordeling get a tiny set of plate and a tiny shard weapon?

I'm guessing Shardplate yes, Shardblade no. Although I think any hordeling could summon the Shardblade.

@lacrossedeamon I think you're just refusing to believe the obvious. All the evidence is against Dawnshards being usable on their own, including the in-book behavior of the Sleepless.

Edited January 9, 2023 by The Known Novel

[lacrossedeamon]

19 minutes ago, The Known Novel said:

 

@lacrossedeamon I think you're just refusing to believe the obvious. All the evidence is against Dawnshards being usable on their own, including the in-book behavior of the Sleepless.

And I think y'all're inferring too much into statements from Brandon that don't fully support your positions.

[Tglassy]

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

And I think y'all're inferring too much into statements from Brandon that don't fully support your positions.

The short story explicitly states that Rysn can't actually use the Dawnshard because she has no access to Investiture, and she was forbidden to have access to Investiture because of this.  It's right there, in the book.  You can choose to ignore what's right there in the book, thereby destroying the integrity of this mental exersize, or you can pick some kind of surgebinding or access to Investiture.  It's really a simple fix.

As for the Hordling thing...I honestly don't think they could even have a Nahel bond.  They could maybe have Allomancy, as each hordling is technically a descendant, so one eats a Lerasium bead and every one after has it.  Maybe they could have Feruchemy, though we still don't know where that came from.  But even something like Breaths would be hard.  But it's an option, so whatevs.

The problem with being able to choose Dawnshards is we don't know what it means.  We know "Powerful", but have absolutly no idea what that actually means.  Sure, a Bondsmith Dawnshard destroyed a planet.  But how?  What did he do?  How did he do it?  How did it look?  We don't know, so it becomes another force field dog eating dinosaur.

 

Ok.  Strategy.  I mean, it's not difficult to see.  A Fullborn with near infinite attributes coupled with the protection of Plate and the offense of a Blade, using Abrasion to increase speeds past what would otherwise be safe.  I would have a frick ton of Steel and Zinc on my body to act as metalminds, Invested to the hilt and looking for somewhere to stick it.  Speed would be my go to, but I wouldn't neglect the others.  I wish I knew how Division worked, because from what the Coppermind says, it's basically artilary.  It's pure destruction, and I'd have full access, being 5th Ideal.  

I'd have a number of Aons etched in small squares that would be a part of my clothing under my Plate.  Their primary purpose would be teleportation, shifting to the CR, and the like, as well as defensive shields of various kinds.  I'd rather my Plate be a last resort.  

I'm really enjoying this.  I'm going to make a secondary character just to see what happens.  

[Ashbringer he/him]

I think there’s a WoB that Sleepless can (and in the past, maybe even did) have Nahel bonds. Something implied from the back cover summaries.

 

My Floor-Fused is lacking in the living shardplate department, but I’m not entirely sure what I’d change. Could maybe drop Lerasium Mistborn for just normal Mistborn, but it makes a good edge for things. Seems everyone’s a Fullborn these days 

[lacrossedeamon]

12 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

The short story explicitly states that Rysn can't actually use the Dawnshard because she has no access to Investiture, and she was forbidden to have access to Investiture because of this.  It's right there, in the book.  You can choose to ignore what's right there in the book, thereby destroying the integrity of this mental exersize, or you can pick some kind of surgebinding or access to Investiture.  It's really a simple fix.

It actually doesn't explicitly state that but anyways:

7 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

But honestly if you want on top of being a Sho Del (or Kandra would provide the extra arms I guess) with all 4 Dawnshards I can still use another 120 points and could give myself the Surge of Gravitation or Iron Compounding and just become a supermassive black hole but I don’t find that necessary. Having all 4 Dawnshards if possible will be like having the Infinity Gauntlet I believe.

 

[alder24]

14 hours ago, Frustration said:

No, that's a Bondsmith ability.

I don't know how to interprete that WoB. It's vague on purpose. What I know is that time dilation is effect of investiture and it works like gravity. So technically speaking, every Bondsmith can access a lot of investiture to make this effect - but he would just hold it, not use it. So i'm not sure if Dawnshard would multiply that effect. Again, that WoB is just vague for me. 

10 hours ago, Tglassy said:

As for the Hordling thing...I honestly don't think they could even have a Nahel bond.  They could maybe have Allomancy, as each hordling is technically a descendant, so one eats a Lerasium bead and every one after has it.  Maybe they could have Feruchemy, though we still don't know where that came from.  But even something like Breaths would be hard.  But it's an option, so whatevs.

The problem with being able to choose Dawnshards is we don't know what it means.  We know "Powerful", but have absolutly no idea what that actually means.  Sure, a Bondsmith Dawnshard destroyed a planet.  But how?  What did he do?  How did he do it?  How did it look?  We don't know, so it becomes another force field dog eating dinosaur.

I treated Dawnshard as a surge multiplier, so every regular action can just be much more powerful. But you're right, we don't know what Dawnshards can do, we know one can destroy a planet with some surges.
How Sleepless soul works? Do they have one soul spread over multiple hordelings, or each hordling has its own soul? I do think they have one, therefore if Sleepless is a mistborn, all hordlings can use it if each of them have access to metals.
But Sleepless can form Nahel Bond. 

Spoiler

alercah

The Sleepless presumably do not want her to swear a Radiant oath because she would be able to use the Dawnshard in conjunction with Surgebinding, and we know that that combination already destroyed one planet in the system so it's pretty understandable.

But there were a bunch of Soulcasters lying around and they didn't seem bothered. So is this one of the differences between Radiant Soulcasting and Soulcasting via the fabrial? That the Dawnshard cannot be used alongside the fabrial?

Brandon Sanderson

So, the Sleepless ARE capable of Radiant bonds. (I believe the back jacket of the first book implies as much, if I remember correctly.) However, things they at first thought were great are making them increasingly worried, for reasons that will come up (not related to them specifically) in this book and the next.

Soulcasting via a fabrial is way, way less dangerous than Radiant Soulcasting--which is in turn far less dangerous than unbound Soulcasting (meaning without oaths.)

FirebreatherRay

We've seen that the interpretation of the oaths is largely up to each individual spren (to the point that we've seen an entire Order of Radiants change their allegiance). Would it be possible for there to be a "sociopathic spren" that has interpreted the oaths so radically differently from the rest of their kind that it appears, to an outsider, that they are unbound in the same way the wielder of an honorblade is unbound? Or is there something essential about the nature of spren that prevents this?

Brandon Sanderson

I think that spren could go further than we've seen so far, and indeed, many of the older Skybreakers might be horrified by how far their order has gone. However, there are SOME fundamentals that even a spren with a very different interpretation wouldn't be able to abandon.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

 

9 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Seems everyone’s a Fullborn these days 

Why wouldn't you choose speed, mental, strength, fortune, health compounding? It's so powerful and so cheep

 

13 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Nothing presented has convinced me that Dawnshards can’t be used by themselves. But I guess that is a question for a spoiler stream.

So why can't Rysn use Dawnshard, why was she forbidden from bonding and acquiring surges, why was she allowed to have a Dawnshard if she could use it like you suggesting? How would Command on its own be able to act and do task, it's only Command? That's what Dawnshard is, powerful Command. 

[lacrossedeamon]

26 minutes ago, alder24 said:

So why can't Rysn use Dawnshard, why was she forbidden from bonding and acquiring surges, why was she allowed to have a Dawnshard if she could use it like you suggesting? How would Command on its own be able to act and do task, it's only Command? That's what Dawnshard is, powerful Command. 

We don’t know. The book just states it’s beyond her capacity but doesn’t state why. Only inferences can be made and a lot have on top of extrapolating them to hypothetical people that aren’t Rysn without much support.

A Command on its own can’t but it’s not on it own in this case. It has a wielder. It’s like asking how can a Shard do anything if it’s just a powerful Intent.

[alder24]

1 minute ago, lacrossedeamon said:

A Command on its own can’t but it’s not on it own in this case. It has a wielder. It’s like asking how can a Shard do anything if it’s just a powerful Intent.

Shard is not just an Intent. It's a power shaped by its Intent. Dawnshard is a Command, lacking power. Vessel is just a vessel. It provides mind for a Shard but mind and an Intent for that Command. But where does investiture comes from? You still need Surgebinding. Dawnshard is investiture in form of a powerful Command. You can't split it from it and to something with it, as you would lose the Dawnshard in process. Dawnshard merges with your soul and expands it. Can you just take part of your soul and fuel surgebinding with it? You need investiture from other source to use Dawnshard. You need Surgebinding.

In Dawnshard novel, ch 19, Nikli specifically talks about Surgebinding, which reqires both Intent and Command. To use the most powerful forms of Surgebinding, you need to achieve the level of understanding comparable to deity. That's what Dawnshard is for, to give that understanding to you, so you can use the most powerful forms of Surgebinding. Dawnshard is not a Surgebinding, nor does it provide Surgebinding. It's only a Command.  Surgebinding is all invested arts.

Quote

The most powerful forms of Surgebinding transcend traditional mortal understanding. All their greatest applications require Intent and a Command. Demands on a level no person could ever manage alone. To make such Commands, one must have the reasoning—the breadth of understanding—of a deity. And so, the Dawnshards. The four primal Commands that created all things. And then eventually, they were used to undo Adonalsium itself. - Dawnshard ch 19

Again, you refuse to accept books and WoBs as evidence while they specifically talks about it. 

[lacrossedeamon]

13 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Again, you refuse to accept books and WoBs as evidence while they specifically talks about it. 

I’m not refusing. I’m just taking everything said at only facevalue instead of drawing more inference or extrapolating. We haven’t seen enough of Dawnshards to know if Rysn is the norm or an outlier or if Dawnshards do grant access to more Investiture or Surges on their own that she just can’t utilize for whatever reason at the moment.