Electrochemistry and implications[Discuss]

[+Oltux72 he/him]

Kelsier gave us a major hint when he mentioned their method of making aluminium. Somebody has had to develop it. That likely means there is an unknown major industrialized world out there, unless Sel has changed beyond recognition. Now it could be Taldaine. But the Ghostbloods imported aluminium. It looks likely that the source of the aluminium and their knowledge of electrolysis is one and the same. Autonomy is unlikely to allow large scale trade with Ghostbloods. Silverlight also looks unlikely, as this is industrial technology and they are living a long way away from mines.

So Mythos? Bjendahl?

[NameIess]

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Kelsier gave us a major hint when he mentioned their method of making aluminium. Somebody has had to develop it. That likely means there is an unknown major industrialized world out there, unless Sel has changed beyond recognition. Now it could be Taldaine. But the Ghostbloods imported aluminium. It looks likely that the source of the aluminium and their knowledge of electrolysis is one and the same. Autonomy is unlikely to allow large scale trade with Ghostbloods. Silverlight also looks unlikely, as this is industrial technology and they are living a long way away from mines.

So Mythos? Bjendahl?

Is there any reason that the Ghostbloods couldn’t make aluminum I’m their own? They have scholars among their ranks, couldn’t they have discovered the secret?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

59 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Is there any reason that the Ghostbloods couldn’t make aluminum I’m their own? They have scholars among their ranks, couldn’t they have discovered the secret?

They could. But it is unlikely. They are not better in that regard than anybody else and they'd have more trouble running engineering experiments than a noble house. And you cannot easily run such research off world either. You need people and equipment.

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

They could. But it is unlikely. They are not better in that regard than anybody else and they'd have more trouble running engineering experiments than a noble house. And you cannot easily run such research off world either. You need people and equipment.

They have both and more 

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

They could. But it is unlikely. They are not better in that regard than anybody else and they'd have more trouble running engineering experiments than a noble house. And you cannot easily run such research off world either. You need people and equipment.

Kelsier could have some leftover knowledge from holding Preservation, or they could have used fortune or tapped large amounts of zinc.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

14 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

They have both and more 

Not outside an industrialized world.

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Kelsier could have some leftover knowledge from holding Preservation, or they could have used fortune or tapped large amounts of zinc.

Possible, but then they would not refer to another scientist, who understands the issues and hence comes from a scientifically advanced world, taking us back to the original issue..

[HavingTheHasHoidAPurpose?]

It seems that Taldain is by far the most advanced Cosmere world, probably at modern or near futuretech at the moment. Given Autonomy's intent, It's highly likely that While the system isn't conducive to cosmere immigration, individuals on taldain with grit, and determination, can probably bypass whatever is making offworld travel difficult. It's definitely possible since, I'm pretty sure Hoid was in white sand, and besides we've seen, white sand(The substance) offworld, with odium's forces, and I think in mraize's office.

Thus I think It's more thank likely that technical and scientific knowledge has been leaking out of taldain, And The GB are likely privy to such discoveries. 

[Isilel]

13 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Possible, but then they would not refer to another scientist, who understands the issues and hence comes from a scientifically advanced world, taking us back to the original issue..

 

I really don't see why the scientist can't be a Scadrian who has been nudged in the right direction by Kelsier's ex-Shardic information. Kelsier can be aware that some things are possible without knowing the details and it is always easier to figure out something that you already know is feasible. Honestly the side-lining of Scadrians among the Ghostbloods in TLM doesn't make a lot of sense even as is, whithout adding even more theoretical worldhoppers into the mix.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

I really don't see why the scientist can't be a Scadrian who has been nudged in the right direction by Kelsier's ex-Shardic information. Kelsier can be aware that some things are possible without knowing the details and it is always easier to figure out something that you already know is feasible.

Because you'd have to construct prototypes. Which would require components and workers. The components need to come from other houses. Your workers will talk. Do you really think the noble houses don't do industrial espionage? They have private armies. They'll look at the market and they'll notice that there's more aluminium around than official figures can explain. They'll dig around.
Nor can you build your prototype factory on some godforsaken world. You'll need lots of electricity and parts.

Yet without having seen the transition, even the best single scientist will not give you good estimates.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Honestly the side-lining of Scadrians among the Ghostbloods in TLM doesn't make a lot of sense even as is, whithout adding even more theoretical worldhoppers into the mix.

If you want your organization to stay secret, putting the local offworld makes sense. People have relatives and lovers. They tend to talk. Plainly removing the opportunity to slip up makes sense.

[lacrossedeamon]

On 12/29/2022 at 6:28 AM, Oltux72 said:

Kelsier gave us a major hint when he mentioned their method of making aluminium. Somebody has had to develop it. That likely means there is an unknown major industrialized world out there, unless Sel has changed beyond recognition. Now it could be Taldaine. But the Ghostbloods imported aluminium. It looks likely that the source of the aluminium and their knowledge of electrolysis is one and the same. Autonomy is unlikely to allow large scale trade with Ghostbloods. Silverlight also looks unlikely, as this is industrial technology and they are living a long way away from mines.

So Mythos? Bjendahl?

You think Silverlight MERCANTILE would have trouble obtaining bauxite?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 8.1.2023 at 7:04 AM, lacrossedeamon said:

You think Silverlight MERCANTILE would have trouble obtaining bauxite?

Trouble obtaining it? No.

Trouble transporting it over land via a non-mechanized caravan and still make it at cheaper cost than processing the ore on site? Yes, they would. In fact they would fail. People just forget how expensive land transport was in preindustrial times.

[lacrossedeamon]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Trouble obtaining it? No.

Trouble transporting it over land via a non-mechanized caravan and still make it at cheaper cost than processing the ore on site? Yes, they would. In fact they would fail. People just forget how expensive land transport was in preindustrial times.

We haven’t seen Silverlight so we can’t judge their tech (mundane or Invested) levels in order to know if that would be an obstacle or not. Also what would stop them from processing it on site?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

We haven’t seen Silverlight so we can’t judge their tech (mundane or Invested) levels in order to know if that would be an obstacle or not. Also what would stop them from processing it on site?

The problem is not Silverlight. The problem is the caravans. And yes, we know their level of technology based on travel times through the CR.

If they chose to process it on site they need

1. power plants
2. electrical equipment to make it DC at the correct voltage
3. factories for graphite electrodes
4. factories for kryolithe
5. ore processing plants

and the factories you need to make those in turn. There is a reason aluminium became cheap only at the end of the 19th century.

[Ashbringer he/him]

I was under the impression the Ghostbloods were performing their electrolysis for creating aluminum on Scadrial. They have cars and electricity now, they're most of the way through the Industrial Revolution. The Ghostbloods should have enough presence to get a factory on Scadrial able to produce it, and they definitely can have enough control to keep it a secret, especially if the Set can pull off similar things. 

Where that method was originally developed, that's interesting. Sazed could have told Kelsier directly, or it could have come from Autonomy's planet (presumably Taldain) or another. Taldain is supposedly closed, but that doesn't seem to be perfect as a few worldhoppers have shown up from there. We also haven't seen other planets for a while, mostly Sel and Nalthis, that could have advanced to that point. Scadrial might be the second most advanced planet industrially, but the others might not be too far behind.

[lacrossedeamon]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The problem is not Silverlight. The problem is the caravans. And yes, we know their level of technology based on travel times through the CR.

Are you basing that on MeLaan’s epilogue from TLM? Because I think you might be inferring too much. We don’t know if the letter was sent immediately after Wayne’s death or if Harmony sat on it for a while for whatever reason. We don’t know the distance needed for it to travel to her. We don’t know if the problems the Ghostbloods talked about could have caused delays.

[Frustration he/him]

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The problem is not Silverlight. The problem is the caravans. And yes, we know their level of technology based on travel times through the CR.

We do not have a single datapoint on the time it takes Silverlight scholars to go any particular distance in the CR.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

9 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The problem is not Silverlight. The problem is the caravans. And yes, we know their level of technology based on travel times through the CR.

Transport will mainly go with ships, only the shortest part between planets will be caravans. Anyway, I dont think Silverlight produces its own alumnium.

We know most advanced world in Cosmere is Taldain, Scadrial is second. So I think Ghostbloods recriuted scientist witch electrochemy specialisation on Taldain, and smuggled him to Scadrial, when they set him somewhere in the Roughs near bauxite mine.

[cometaryorbit]

On 1/10/2023 at 4:19 AM, Ashbringer said:

I was under the impression the Ghostbloods were performing their electrolysis for creating aluminum on Scadrial. They have cars and electricity now, they're most of the way through the Industrial Revolution. The Ghostbloods should have enough presence to get a factory on Scadrial able to produce it, and they definitely can have enough control to keep it a secret, especially if the Set can pull off similar things.

Yeah if the Set can hide huge things, hiding these things is probably not as hard as all that.

Which makes sense. Even the Basin is thinly populated, the Roughs more so, and the North lacks aviation ... and this isn't a society where everyone has IDs, people who aren't nobles probably aren't tracked. This is probably pre driver's license.

[Isilel]

On 30 December 2022 at 2:41 PM, Oltux72 said:

Because you'd have to construct prototypes. Which would require components and workers. The components need to come from other houses. Your workers will talk. Do you really think the noble houses don't do industrial espionage?

As has been already mentioned above the Set had thousands of people working on their secret projects with very little information leakage. It took Harmony actively steering his chosen tools to uncover their operations. Alone what happened in Dulsing demonstrates that it is quite possible to hush down the most sensational things in the Basin with uninvolved noble Houses being none the wiser.

Kelsier used to be good at such things in MB1 despite higher level of surveillance  - there were hundreds involved in staffing Renoux's residence,  lots of outside talent brought in by Breeze and Ham, etc. And nobody ratted him out. Granted, he appears much less competent in TLM, but setting up a secret aluminum processing plant somewhere in the Roughs still should have been within his capabilities.

 

On 10 January 2023 at 7:15 PM, Bzhydack said:

So I think Ghostbloods recriuted scientist witch electrochemy specialisation on Taldain, and smuggled him to Scadrial, when they set him somewhere in the Roughs near bauxite mine.

I really don't see why the electrochemical aluminum purification process couldn't have been invented on Scadrial? I mean it was invented iRL in the late 19th century and one of the 2 guys who independently discovered it was working out of a shed on his parents property, with tools that he built himself. Kelsier had a nose for talent in the past - I don't see why he couldn't have found a talented inventor and maybe helped him out a bit with his vestiges of Preservation's knowledge?

[+Bzhydack he/him]

On 13.01.2023 at 6:58 PM, Isilel said:

I really don't see why the electrochemical aluminum purification process couldn't have been invented on Scadrial? I mean it was invented iRL in the late 19th century and one of the 2 guys who independently discovered it was working out of a shed on his parents property, with tools that he built himself. Kelsier had a nose for talent in the past - I don't see why he couldn't have found a talented inventor and maybe helped him out a bit with his vestiges of Preservation's knowledge?

This is possibility, in fact Scadrians will invent this in very near future, but but from way Ghostbloods were talking I was assuming they brought this idea from somwhere else. Also, if someone would invent this on Scadrial, why he/she is not famous and superrich already? Aluminium has in Cosmere additional value in comparison to our world.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

Keep in mind that the ghostbloods probably have access to awakaning, and can therefore power there operations descretely.

[Isilel]

On 15.1.2023 at 5:11 AM, Bzhydack said:

This is possibility, in fact Scadrians will invent this in very near future, but but from way Ghostbloods were talking I was assuming they brought this idea from somwhere else. Also, if someone would invent this on Scadrial, why he/she is not famous and superrich already? Aluminium has in Cosmere additional value in comparison to our world.

 

Why is whoever made Gavilar's sphere of anti-voidlight not famous and super-rich? For the same reason, I imagine - they had been working for a secret worldhopper org, most likely the Ghostbloods. If the Ghostbloods or similar groups help you with a breakthrough invention, they are ultimately in control of how it gets used and whether your contribution is publicly aknowledged at some point or not.

@IlstrawberrySeed: excellent point - we already know that the Ghostbloods have Awakened items, so why not an Awakened electricity generator? In addition, southern tech is farther along, so it may have been used too. Another advantage that they could give their prospective inventor is access to southern knowledge. Or vice versa. For all we know their chemical engineer is a southerner, but they keep the process secret from both sides, to protect their funding. At some point soon they'll have to  patent it or let somebody else reap the rewards.