Roshar deserves to lose

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

How in the heck do the radiants suck so bad at eliminating their targets and vanquishing their foes?  From my understanding browsing these forums I am led to believe that: 

Nothing can penetrate living plate.

Everything short of gold compounding or being a radiant will die instantly to zigzaging magical blades of death.

Elsecallers and Lightweavers can turn the floor into lava and the air into poisonus vapor around battle fields.  

Skybreakers and Dustbringers can fly and skate in circles through enemy ranks incinerating everything that they pass... while being invunlerable in plate and having a self thinking buzz saw of a weapon to sever any obsticle in their way or instantly healing any damage they take including but not limited to having their entire head turned into ground beef and scattered behind them.

Bondsmiths... well they just open a perpendicularity and drain the entire enemy army of all of their innate investiture killing them at a spiritual level while sticking them to the ground so they cant even jump before being sapped of all life.  

Literally don't have to go into mass rez abilities or the field of choke roots grabbing / grappling and suffocating vines from truthwatchers and edge dancers.  Nor do I have to start with the quicksand, earth opens up and swallows the enemy whole that is possible from stonewards and willshapers.

Stormlight as a resource is a lie.  Because stormlight exists in precisely the amount needed at the push of a button.  

How then is there a story?  How have radiants failed so miserably to win?  You have demigods with weapons and armor shaped from smaller parts of gods.  These demigods have the ability to turn their entire planet to dust and then grow it back again. 

The people who are supposed to be protecting others get into 1v1s and watch armies die below them while the people who should where and when they are needed havent shown up yet.  

If this power set hasn't won the war yet it never will.  

 

Okay okay okay.  Perhaps I am being to harsh on the system here and I admit 100% that I have a bias that will and has shone through here.  I have been trying to make it through stormlight hard but in the last 4 months still havent finished Oathbringer.  SO I know that some of what I have said and am going to say may not be accurate for those who are finished with the series up till now and I am totally open to hearing any spoilers about my future readings anyways.  So I welcome spoilers here.  Don't worry about ruining the book for me.  

Now that the disclosure is finished here is my thought process both of what we see in the books and my reasoning for why I just can't get into Stormlight archives.   

#1:  Power creep is boring...

Superman is boring.  I know that is only an opinion but where is the danger?  That his city might crumble and even if the world was destroyed he would just be floating there in space alone?  Emotionally traumatic sure but armies can fight and die underneath him having an epic fight in the skies and it wouldn't be spooky for the viewer or reader.  

When every season of dragon ball is "WOAH that guys power level 9000!  I guess I need to quickly level up to 9001 so I can save the world again" it is just dry.  

Likewise, I stopped putting any validity in MMO races and ranking because the power creep of gear farming just got way to out of hand (I wouldn't know where that is now as my only gaming in the last 2 years is boardgames with the wife and kid but that is why I started to shift away from everything anyway).  

I feel like the protagonists in stormlight are like my 11 year old when he says "whatever you say plus one."  It makes for cute fantasy but not really great story telling.

#2:  Healing everything is just a boring as power creep...

My buddy is an author and we just discussed one of his books and how I enjoyed reading the characters thought process and angle of attacks.  The character never brute forced anything and even though she had access to healing magic we were shown in the first scenes of his series that it was tuned back away from gold compounding which was nice.  I LOVED Miles and the way gold compounding was demonstrated to be imba beyond belief in AoL but I would have hated reading about him as a protagonist.  

Working in trauma centers ramps up the costs for me.  I have seen and worked on the broken and bloodied.  It is hard for me to picture certain traumas as being brushed away as easily as others.  There needs to be a point where you can die.  Again power creep and the impossible balancing act of keeping your characters human dont really work well together.  There is a limit to stormlight healing but we are just waiting to see it and truly digest it.  

#3:  Stormlight is Brandon's Harry Potter...

As I watched Brandon's creative writing class I remember parts talking about hard systems vs soft systems.  How it bothers me when hand waiving and "because magic" is used to overcome obstacles.  I feel like Stormlight has SOOOO much of that.  Unlike other cosmere books I feel like there is a lot more "discovering" new powers at the very last moment.  That digging down out of deep desperation knowing that this is the end and then suddenly power explodes out of your body and the bad guy loses.  This is totally not limited to just the stormlight archives.  It was a big issue I had with mistborn as well and I think Vin had both the best examples of how to introduce magic and the worst of unexplained previously undiscovered power level achievments as well, but stormlight takes the cake.  I like bridge 4 and their constant practice and limit testing.  That is fun discovery that doesn't take away from the risks when in those high risk situations. 

Again maybe this is engrained in my thought process as a result in my work but who wants to be taken care of by the person who, rather than drilling and proficiency, is just waiting for that eurika moment to have some magical hand waiving save their patient?  

I thought that warbreaker was a softer system but I actually think that stormlight while potentially having more rules attached, is written in a way that it feels like the softest system yet.  You might not be able to do everything but it's okay because your immortality will make up for it anyways. 

 

In summary:

I know not everyone has the same taste and I get that Brandon has said he doesn't intend for the cosmere magic systems to be balanced against one another but I figure Roshar deserves to lose because even though they have seemingly everything they can't win a fight.  For the 126 hours or so I have listened to so far the side with the most powerful being in the cosmere short of shards have lost miserably.  

If Stormlight has anything going for it I would say that is it.  Even through all of the power creep and infinity healing they can't win a battle.  Stormlight is like the exact opposite of most D&D campaigns.  The big bad guy loses and runs and loses and runs and loses and runs until a final fight when he finally loses or wins for good.  Except in this case it is what we are reading as the protagonists.  Maybe Brandon will shock us all and we will find out that Odium's forces were the good guys and we were reading from the bad guys POV for a change.  

I have been wondering why I have such a hard time making it through all of my families and friends favorite cosmere books and I think this sums it up pretty well.  

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by Tamriel Wolfsbaine

[S. Stormy]

Well, I think something you might be forgetting is similar to something in Harry Potter where the Muggle prime minister is like "you're so powerful! how could you ever struggle in a war?" and Fudge is like, "well, it's because the other side has magic too."

The Fused also have these powers. They're also immortal and have more experience than the budding Radiants. The Radiants are struggling to find the needed people, there aren't enough Radiants and they just got the powers that year, most of them. The Radiants may be powerful, but there are so few of them and they're very inexperienced, as opposed to the millenia-old immortal Fused, who have the same powers, even though it's just one, but they are so much more experienced.

Along with that, there's the fact that the characters may have healing powers for their physical wounds, they still have struggles that are more internal, that make these incredibly strong power-wise characters seem vulnerable. Also about your second-to-last paragraph... well...

Keep reading. Don't give up yet.

 

[Frustration]

58 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Okay okay okay.  Perhaps I am being to harsh on the system here and I admit 100% that I have a bias that will and has shone through here.  I have been trying to make it through stormlight hard but in the last 4 months still havent finished Oathbringer.  SO I know that some of what I have said and am going to say may not be accurate for those who are finished with the series up till now and I am totally open to hearing any spoilers about my future readings anyways.  So I welcome spoilers here.  Don't worry about ruining the book for me. 

The funny thing is everything you said above is 100% true.

and let's not even get started on the interplanetary portals, and the ability to create nukes on demand.

58 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

#2: Healing everything is just a boring as power creep

Agreed, there aren't any stakes anymore.

And while I think the powers are all consistent, that might be because of how much time I spend studying this.

If it makes you feel better Brandon did introduce ways to drain stormlight and kill spren, but he also let Kaladin beat everyone he fought despite losing most of his powers in the same book so...

32 minutes ago, Shallan Stormblessed said:

Well, I think something you might be forgetting is similar to something in Harry Potter where the Muggle prime minister is like "you're so powerful! how could you ever struggle in a war?" and Fudge is like, "well, it's because the other side has magic too."

 

The Fused also have these powers. They're also immortal and have more experience than the budding Radiants. The Radiants are struggling to find the needed people, there aren't enough Radiants and they just got the powers that year, most of them. The Radiants may be powerful, but there are so few of them and they're very inexperienced, as opposed to the millenia-old immortal Fused, who have the same powers, even though it's just one, but they are so much more experienced.

They are less powerful and don't have shards. I don't feel like they were ever threats in the first place.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Ookla the Frustrated.
Stupid strikethough

[nyxvoid]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Nothing can penetrate living plate.

there are many things that can penetrate plate, living or dead. brute force and heavy blows can shatter plate in one strike. shard blades can also some times pierce plate in first strike  depending on part of plate .

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Skybreakers and Dustbringers can fly and skate in circles through enemy ranks incinerating everything that they pass... 

 

dustbringers dont fly. their surges are division and abrasion. division is to break things by touch and abration is manipulation of friction like we see mostly Edgedancers do.

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Bondsmiths... well they just open a perpendicularity and drain the entire enemy army of all of their innate investiture killing them at a spiritual level while sticking them to the ground so they cant even jump before being sapped of all life.  

 

when did that happen in oath bringer. at most there can only be three bond smiths . and fourth one that holds bondsmith honorblade, herald issik. 

bondsmiths need to touch their subject to manipulate their soul's connections .and dalinar hasn't even figured out how to do that . only bondsmith who could do such feats is a potential bad guy ( Issik).

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

 people who are supposed to be protecting others get into 1v1s and watch armies die below them while the people who should where and when they are needed havent shown up yet.  

If this power set hasn't won the war yet it never will.  

 

 

like @shallan stormblessed said that other side also has wizards. and other side has more surge binders . they consume their fule - voidlight- much more slowly . and stormlight is not available on pressing any buttons .

 

My point is that good guys are way weaker than bad guys . 

 

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Working in trauma centers ramps up the costs for me.  I have seen and worked on the broken and bloodied.  It is hard for me to picture certain traumas as being brushed away as easily as others.  There needs to be a point where you can die.  

It is a theme that magic in cosmere comes at a cost : cost being trauma mental or physical ,any kind of trauma.

i think sylphrena in "way of kings" tells kaladin that all radiants are broken in some way.  again in" rythem of war" ,i think, it is elaborated that spern need cracks in soul to form nahel bond with humans . cracks beigs mental traumas .

i dont think brandon is joking with mental health.

 

 

Misborn , warbreaker and elantris are set on earth like planets with humans as primary ( only?) sapient , sentient species . in mistborn we have some others like koloss and kandra but that are human derived beings. 

Roshar is so alien . It is a sand box of different species each, having their own culture and agenda. Humans and singers being centeral species .then their are sleepless and siah aimians . i would even argue that humans of shinovar are a separate species . horneaters , herdazian both races have human and singer blood. then there are people of natan with blue skin and  another western city with people having deep blue vains that are visible through skin. they have siah aimian and human blood. 

Geographically Roshar is so much different then other planets . it is one solid chunk of rock . then there is weather . dont get me started on why highstorms are essential for roshar. roshar atmosphere is oxygen rich. people grow taller there average being near 6 feet by our standards. 

Look at echology of roshar their fauna and flora is so unique and alien. explaining them is too time consuming . all gient species need high oxygen in atmosphere and bonds with ' lesser spren' (luck spren) to survive their massive weight and move about .every thing on roshar requires investiture to live , directly or indirectly .

then there are spren . there are unique to roshar- as of yet- throughout the cosmere .

In short roshar is a sandbox of cosmere . playground of secret organizations . battle ground of gods. most importantly , prison of ODIUM. 

it is understandable if Stormlight archive is overwhelming . there is so much detail . i have read it four times and i still found new  details in my fourth reading . for me , it was too big and heavy in first read. i didn't read most of interludes  and skimmed through few portions . 

Stormlight archive reminds me of farseer trilogy   , in terms of being long and slow. But it is not dull. quite opposite , it is overwhelming . so colorful .

Still i think Stormlight archive needs multiple reads to digest it. Give it your unbiased attention . Start from beginning and try to read it on weakeneds when you have lot of time .

It is amazing .

 

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by nyxvoid

[StormingTexan]

 

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

How then is there a story?  How have radiants failed so miserably to win?  You have demigods with weapons and armor shaped from smaller parts of gods.  These demigods have the ability to turn their entire planet to dust and then grow it back again. 

Because the enemy never really dies and now because of the Everstorm the Fused do not have to stay on Braize essentially creating a perpetual stalemate.  I know you said you do not care about spoilers but I cannot bring myself to outright spoil this. I will say you will see something in RoW that will change the balance. 

[HOID WANTS INSTANT NOODLES]

The Radiants are inherently limited by their oaths. They have to follow their own Geneva Convention. They have limits caused by internal struggles. The reason they are powerfull is they are using honors investiture w/o honors restrictions. On the other hand the enemy has a functioning god and they dont. You dont get plate until 4th ideal(correct me if im wrong on that one.) And no shardblades at first. Fused arrive with all of their powers and they know how to use them. The radiants cant win unless the fused stop coming. Its like trying to win a shooter game where you have one life and a powerfull weapon but your enemy has a good but not great weapon and infinite respawns. Doesnt matter if you are better than the enemy you just cant win

[alder24]

I will say, you nailed it - that's how Radiants look like judging from discussions on this forum. But that's what we do here - we're discussing the ultimate limits, thinking of masters of their surges, we cross the line between believable and possible, we explore the theoretical possibilities to extreme. All of that is just for fun, and frustration when we disagree all the times.

But that what is happening on this forum not in the books. I really encourage you to finished SA, as this will erase your doubts. The heroes struggles with themselves and their enemies, they have limits and weaknesses. They are decades away from being masters, but separated only by thin red line and collapsing from their trauma and depression. Their actions are determined by what's moral and right to do, and align with their Oaths. And all skills and proficiency with surges are lost when they die.

On the other hand they are fighting enemy that is immortal, and can't be killed. Every Fused that they kill will come back and they will have to fight with them again. How to you fight with forces that ignore death? They had 7000 years to master their skills and surges, Radients have at best few months. There is hundreds of them, and still more is coming, Radiants at best 100. And Fused are surrounded by thousands of Regals, that can summon lightning and can also use other powerful abilities. 

When Radient dies, the one that takes his place has to start from beginning, all the training, all the learning, everything has to be acquired again. When Fused dies, he just comes back during next Everstorm.

And Fused have a living god standing behind them and guiding them, all Radiants have is shattered memony of one.

 

And draining out light is a more and more common, you've seen it before, larkin that Nale used on Lift. But there are other ways to do it. 

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, nyxvoid said:

dustbringers dont fly. their surges are division and abrasion. division is to break things by touch and abration is manipulation of friction like we see mostly Edgedancers do.

He said skate for that reason.

2 hours ago, nyxvoid said:

My point is that good guys are way weaker than bad guys

No they really aren't. 1 Windrunner, who was barely conscious, and had lost most of his power routinely beat multiple fully powered opponents, including a guy who could teleport. Given what we see 4th oath Kaladin on his own has the power to stop Odium's entire force, it isn't even close.

1 hour ago, HOID WANTS INSTANT NOODLES said:

The Radiants are inherently limited by their oaths. They have to follow their own Geneva Convention. They have limits caused by internal struggles. The reason they are powerfull is they are using honors investiture w/o honors restrictions. On the other hand the enemy has a functioning god and they dont. You dont get plate until 4th ideal(correct me if im wrong on that one.) And no shardblades at first. Fused arrive with all of their powers and they know how to use them. The radiants cant win unless the fused stop coming. Its like trying to win a shooter game where you have one life and a powerfull weapon but your enemy has a good but not great weapon and infinite respawns. Doesnt matter if you are better than the enemy you just cant win

Pretty much any philosophy or worldview is compatible with the oaths.

 

If fused are so much more dangerous than Radiants, why have radiants killed upwards of thirty of them while only losing 3 in the process?

[StormingTexan]

5 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

If fused are so much more dangerous than Radiants, why have radiants killed upwards of thirty of them while only losing 3 in the process?

Yeah I wouldn't say more dangerous but 3 KR deaths is way more detrimental to their war effort than the 30 or so temporary Fused deaths to theirs. In a way it is all pretty balanced and that is the problem and why we see the new thing in RoW (trying to keep it spoilerish free for the OP). 

[Frustration]

8 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

Yeah I wouldn't say more dangerous but 3 KR deaths is way more detrimental to their war effort than the 30 or so temporary Fused deaths to theirs. In a way it is all pretty balanced and that is the problem and why we see the new thing in RoW (trying to keep it spoilerish free for the OP). 

Fused souls wear out after each rebirth. Spren don't, so killing then is making progress.

Not to mention they have virtually no way to counter a radiant once they reach 4th ideal.

[StormingTexan]

9 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Fused souls wear out after each rebirth. Spren don't, so killing then is making progress.

Wear out or get crazier? I thought it was the latter. Spren do not wear out but when a KR gets killed you start over from the beginning. Loose all the training and previous oath levels plus just the process of a Spren bonding with a new KR and the emotional damage it does to them loosing their KR. To me it is part of the balance. KR are more powerful but when one dies it hurts their ranks more. The balance is the issue. I cant remember if it was in OB or RoW but Kaladan spells out the issue pretty clearly. 

[Letryx13]

4 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

How in the heck do the radiants suck so bad at eliminating their targets and vanquishing their foes?  From my understanding browsing these forums I am led to believe that: 

Nothing can penetrate living plate.

Everything short of gold compounding or being a radiant will die instantly to zigzaging magical blades of death.

Elsecallers and Lightweavers can turn the floor into lava and the air into poisonus vapor around battle fields.  

Skybreakers and Dustbringers can fly and skate in circles through enemy ranks incinerating everything that they pass... while being invunlerable in plate and having a self thinking buzz saw of a weapon to sever any obsticle in their way or instantly healing any damage they take including but not limited to having their entire head turned into ground beef and scattered behind them.

Bondsmiths... well they just open a perpendicularity and drain the entire enemy army of all of their innate investiture killing them at a spiritual level while sticking them to the ground so they cant even jump before being sapped of all life.  

Literally don't have to go into mass rez abilities or the field of choke roots grabbing / grappling and suffocating vines from truthwatchers and edge dancers.  Nor do I have to start with the quicksand, earth opens up and swallows the enemy whole that is possible from stonewards and willshapers.

Stormlight as a resource is a lie.  Because stormlight exists in precisely the amount needed at the push of a button.  

How then is there a story?  How have radiants failed so miserably to win?  You have demigods with weapons and armor shaped from smaller parts of gods.  These demigods have the ability to turn their entire planet to dust and then grow it back again. 

The people who are supposed to be protecting others get into 1v1s and watch armies die below them while the people who should where and when they are needed havent shown up yet.  

If this power set hasn't won the war yet it never will.  

 

Okay okay okay.  Perhaps I am being to harsh on the system here and I admit 100% that I have a bias that will and has shone through here.  I have been trying to make it through stormlight hard but in the last 4 months still havent finished Oathbringer.  SO I know that some of what I have said and am going to say may not be accurate for those who are finished with the series up till now and I am totally open to hearing any spoilers about my future readings anyways.  So I welcome spoilers here.  Don't worry about ruining the book for me.  

Now that the disclosure is finished here is my thought process both of what we see in the books and my reasoning for why I just can't get into Stormlight archives.   

#1:  Power creep is boring...

Superman is boring.  I know that is only an opinion but where is the danger?  That his city might crumble and even if the world was destroyed he would just be floating there in space alone?  Emotionally traumatic sure but armies can fight and die underneath him having an epic fight in the skies and it wouldn't be spooky for the viewer or reader.  

When every season of dragon ball is "WOAH that guys power level 9000!  I guess I need to quickly level up to 9001 so I can save the world again" it is just dry.  

Likewise, I stopped putting any validity in MMO races and ranking because the power creep of gear farming just got way to out of hand (I wouldn't know where that is now as my only gaming in the last 2 years is boardgames with the wife and kid but that is why I started to shift away from everything anyway).  

I feel like the protagonists in stormlight are like my 11 year old when he says "whatever you say plus one."  It makes for cute fantasy but not really great story telling.

#2:  Healing everything is just a boring as power creep...

My buddy is an author and we just discussed one of his books and how I enjoyed reading the characters thought process and angle of attacks.  The character never brute forced anything and even though she had access to healing magic we were shown in the first scenes of his series that it was tuned back away from gold compounding which was nice.  I LOVED Miles and the way gold compounding was demonstrated to be imba beyond belief in AoL but I would have hated reading about him as a protagonist.  

Working in trauma centers ramps up the costs for me.  I have seen and worked on the broken and bloodied.  It is hard for me to picture certain traumas as being brushed away as easily as others.  There needs to be a point where you can die.  Again power creep and the impossible balancing act of keeping your characters human dont really work well together.  There is a limit to stormlight healing but we are just waiting to see it and truly digest it.  

#3:  Stormlight is Brandon's Harry Potter...

As I watched Brandon's creative writing class I remember parts talking about hard systems vs soft systems.  How it bothers me when hand waiving and "because magic" is used to overcome obstacles.  I feel like Stormlight has SOOOO much of that.  Unlike other cosmere books I feel like there is a lot more "discovering" new powers at the very last moment.  That digging down out of deep desperation knowing that this is the end and then suddenly power explodes out of your body and the bad guy loses.  This is totally not limited to just the stormlight archives.  It was a big issue I had with mistborn as well and I think Vin had both the best examples of how to introduce magic and the worst of unexplained previously undiscovered power level achievments as well, but stormlight takes the cake.  I like bridge 4 and their constant practice and limit testing.  That is fun discovery that doesn't take away from the risks when in those high risk situations. 

Again maybe this is engrained in my thought process as a result in my work but who wants to be taken care of by the person who, rather than drilling and proficiency, is just waiting for that eurika moment to have some magical hand waiving save their patient?  

I thought that warbreaker was a softer system but I actually think that stormlight while potentially having more rules attached, is written in a way that it feels like the softest system yet.  You might not be able to do everything but it's okay because your immortality will make up for it anyways. 

 

In summary:

I know not everyone has the same taste and I get that Brandon has said he doesn't intend for the cosmere magic systems to be balanced against one another but I figure Roshar deserves to lose because even though they have seemingly everything they can't win a fight.  For the 126 hours or so I have listened to so far the side with the most powerful being in the cosmere short of shards have lost miserably.  

If Stormlight has anything going for it I would say that is it.  Even through all of the power creep and infinity healing they can't win a battle.  Stormlight is like the exact opposite of most D&D campaigns.  The big bad guy loses and runs and loses and runs and loses and runs until a final fight when he finally loses or wins for good.  Except in this case it is what we are reading as the protagonists.  Maybe Brandon will shock us all and we will find out that Odium's forces were the good guys and we were reading from the bad guys POV for a change.  

I have been wondering why I have such a hard time making it through all of my families and friends favorite cosmere books and I think this sums it up pretty well.  

 

There's a reason why the Radiants never lost a Desolation before.

[alder24]

39 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Fused souls wear out after each rebirth

But the crazy one are still fighting.

12 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

There's a reason why the Radiants never lost a Desolation before.

And there is a reason why before Aharietiam people go back to primitive copper and bronze.

[king of nowhere]

while the op takes it a bit too far, i am also worried about radiant power creep. especially their healing ability; in his first fight, szeth thinks he can heal broken bones in hours. the fist he takes to the face is severely debilitating, and he was at serious risk of losing. that's a good power level to have.

now radiants can be skewered by multiple spears and aren't even being slowed by it, regenerating the worst wounds in seconds. it removes a lot of suspence from the fights

[Werewolff Studios]

12 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

while the op takes it a bit too far, i am also worried about radiant power creep. especially their healing ability; in his first fight, szeth thinks he can heal broken bones in hours. the fist he takes to the face is severely debilitating, and he was at serious risk of losing. that's a good power level to have.

now radiants can be skewered by multiple spears and aren't even being slowed by it, regenerating the worst wounds in seconds. it removes a lot of suspence from the fights

While the power creep is a valid concern, the reason Szeth's healing isn't that good is because he's using an honorblade. Relevant WOB below

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

A full-blown Radiant can heal almost anything (cut from a Shardblade included) because of the way the magic works--their soul is literally bonded to Investiture, and it suffuses them in such a way that even the soul is very resilient to damage.

Honorblades are what you'd consider a "prototype" for what eventually happened with Shardblades. An Honorblade can be used by anyone, without need for oaths, which makes them very dangerous--but since the bond isn't as deep, they are far less efficient. They use more Stormlight, for example, and can't heal to the extent that a Radiant can.

So the difference is not in the device that did the damage, but in the method using to heal. Over the course of the first two book, the reader should be able to subtly pick out differences from what Szeth says is possible (in more than just healing) and what Kaladin experiences.

General Reddit 2017 (Sept. 8, 2017)

 

[Letryx13]

26 minutes ago, alder24 said:

And there is a reason why before Aharietiam people go back to primitive copper and bronze.

I think that’s his point. The Radiants are so powerful that they never lost a desolation before, despite that drawback. Now we have a much more advanced civilization backing the Radiants, and the two sides are about even. 
 

If I had to put it to a specific reason, it’s that the Singers are so unified by their anger at humans that they’re almost entirely on Odium’s side. The humans are far less united. Combine that with the fact that the current generation of Radiants were largely untrained in their powers at the beginning of this Desolation, and it’s easier to understand their struggle. Numbers and experience matter in war. 
 

And you know, one side has a Shard directly backing them and the other doesn’t. 

[StanLemon]

There is definitely power creep, but even more importantly for me the Fused ended up being...disappointing. They are supposed to be these ancient immortals who have honed their Surge and are meant to be a real threat to the Radiants, yet what we've gotten are enemies with a singe gimmick use of their Surges who despite their age aren't monsters at fighting despite literal millenia of fighting. 

[alder24]

7 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

There is definitely power creep, but even more importantly for me the Fused ended up being...disappointing. They are supposed to be these ancient immortals who have honed their Surge and are meant to be a real threat to the Radiants, yet what we've gotten are enemies with a singe gimmick use of their Surges who despite their age aren't monsters at fighting despite literal millenia of fighting. 

I agree, the Heralds are shown to be masters at fighting, beyond any human capability, and yet Fused seems to be too normal, despite having the same time to master their skills as Heralds. They are a threat, but they are lacking as a fearful enemy.

[Werewolff Studios]

20 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

There is definitely power creep, but even more importantly for me the Fused ended up being...disappointing. They are supposed to be these ancient immortals who have honed their Surge and are meant to be a real threat to the Radiants, yet what we've gotten are enemies with a singe gimmick use of their Surges who despite their age aren't monsters at fighting despite literal millenia of fighting. 

9 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I agree, the Heralds are shown to be masters at fighting, beyond any human capability, and yet Fused seems to be too normal, despite having the same time to master their skills as Heralds. They are a threat, but they are lacking as a fearful enemy.

If I may add my two cents, I feel that the balancing factor of the Fused is that most are insane. They've honed their Surges and combat abilities, but it's mostly instinctual now. Many of them don't think rationally or logically, and we've seen that the ones that do (Leshwi, Rabonial and the Pursurer) are indeed quite powerful. Likewise, the Heralds are masters of combat, but they too lack much of their mental capability.  

Now, does that make up for their overall threat level? Not sure - I feel that ultimately comes down to opinion. I will say I felt plenty terrified when they came through Urithiru in ROW. 

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by Werewolff Studios
Grammar

[rabidhexley]

I guess it's just a matter of opinion but I'll offer my perspective. I do think there are valid critiques to be made about SLA, but I think this critique is more of a personal view on what kind of stories someone likes.

 

Stormlight Archive is a story that involves incredibly powerful magic users, this was always going to be the case. Kaladin's current power level was always implied, he's able nearly hold off an army with just Stormlight and a regular spear. The only Radiant power that striked me as surprisingly strong is Radiant healing (Renarin surviving getting crushed was probably the first instance of me being surprised by how strong the magic was), but even that was established fairly early on. Otherwise it always seemed to me that 4th ideal Radiants were going to be beings of incredible power. That's just the kind of world this is.

 

With regards to the Heralds and the Fused, to me it seems that very few Radiants are actually capable of fighting the strongest Fused. Kaladin is meant to be the high-bar we measure (non-Herald) Radiant combat capability against. And the legions of Fused we have in the story are not the Fused of old, it's been thousands of years and they've felt the tole of time the same as the heralds. And this is the most humanity has been able to build up in the history of Roshar even if they'd lost the Radiants.

 

The plot also isn't really about how weak or strong the relative characters are, like whether or not Kaladin can beat X fused in a fight. It's about the overall conflict and the interplay of power across a large scale conflict between not just armies but gods, and on a personal level our main casts' struggles with who they are.

 

If the Radiants weren't powerful humanity would never have survived the Desolations in the first place. Having these incredibly powerful magic-users was their one saving grace. Humanity couldn't afford to lose even once, while the Singers sent Humanity back to the bronze-age from repeated apocalypse-level wars.

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

Wear out or get crazier? I thought it was the latter. Spren do not wear out but when a KR gets killed you start over from the beginning. Loose all the training and previous oath levels plus just the process of a Spren bonding with a new KR and the emotional damage it does to them loosing their KR. To me it is part of the balance. KR are more powerful but when one dies it hurts their ranks more. The balance is the issue. I cant remember if it was in OB or RoW but Kaladan spells out the issue pretty clearly. 

Spren aren't hurt by their knight dying, and find bonding again therapeutic, so that's not an issue at all.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

But the crazy one are still fighting.

The less crazy ones. The others just stare at walls.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

3 hours ago, rabidhexley said:

I guess it's just a matter of opinion but I'll offer my perspective. I do think there are valid critiques to be made about SLA, but I think this critique is more of a personal view on what kind of stories someone likes.

 

Stormlight Archive is a story that involves incredibly powerful magic users, this was always going to be the case. Kaladin's current power level was always implied, he's able nearly hold off an army with just Stormlight and a regular spear. The only Radiant power that striked me as surprisingly strong is Radiant healing (Renarin surviving getting crushed was probably the first instance of me being surprised by how strong the magic was), but even that was established fairly early on. Otherwise it always seemed to me that 4th ideal Radiants were going to be beings of incredible power. That's just the kind of world this is.

 

With regards to the Heralds and the Fused, to me it seems that very few Radiants are actually capable of fighting the strongest Fused. Kaladin is meant to be the high-bar we measure (non-Herald) Radiant combat capability against. And the legions of Fused we have in the story are not the Fused of old, it's been thousands of years and they've felt the tole of time the same as the heralds. And this is the most humanity has been able to build up in the history of Roshar even if they'd lost the Radiants.

 

The plot also isn't really about how weak or strong the relative characters are, like whether or not Kaladin can beat X fused in a fight. It's about the overall conflict and the interplay of power across a large scale conflict between not just armies but gods, and on a personal level our main casts' struggles with who they are.

 

If the Radiants weren't powerful humanity would never have survived the Desolations in the first place. Having these incredibly powerful magic-users was their one saving grace. Humanity couldn't afford to lose even once, while the Singers sent Humanity back to the bronze-age from repeated apocalypse-level wars.

Definately a huge part of the aches and pains I find while reading is that I sort of just feel like these books are a chore.  And they become more of a chore the further I get into them.  

I truly hope the last 30 hours of oathbringer are just an unfortunately dull point in the story.  Kind of feels like Brandon perhaps wanted this epic thriller mashing up all the good stuff from his other stories but has 100% missed on any jaw dropping moments. 

Spoilers aside, when a certain returned met an unfortunate end my jaw hit the floor.  That was so out of left field and highlighted beautifully just how mortal they were.  

I haven't had any of that yet in stormlight.  The most significant death so far was Sadeas and I almost miss him as a villain because in 32 hours of listening I have yet to see a comparable obstacle pop up.  Sure there is this whole thing with the dawnchant happening and the big reveal that Taravangian just dropped but the loss of armies to back up the war effort just doesn't hit you in the feels when Superman is fighting Goku.  

I am glad to hear that Brandon has realized the corner he is in and things have changed.  I would love to see some non Roshar specific counters introduced in book 5 as well to level the field a bit.  Its like going from wrath of the lichking to Cata in world of warcraft. 

 

[nyxvoid]

betrayal of sadeas army in oathbringer was bad . It made alithi as nation look bad. they were on verge of losing support of rest of kingdoms .

 

Knights Randiant were to preserve knowledge throughout desolation and then help humans build up every thing from ashes. End of desolations was duty of heralds . as soon as one of them died , fused would stop re birthing . then rest of heralds and humans can finish off.

7 hours ago, alder24 said:

I agree, the Heralds are shown to be masters at fighting, beyond any human capability, and yet Fused seems to be too normal, despite having the same time to master their skills as Heralds. They are a threat, but they are lacking as a fearful enemy.

 

what about thunderclasts. they are huge and . huge. and there are lot of thunderclasts. that  we have yet to see.

 

you know , in ROW , rabonial tells venli that most powerful of their ranks were yet to awaken. something to do with deepsleep or something ...... AND then there is a point that odium can convert any singer into brand new fused and they will be new brains that could survive madness for next thousand year or so. true , new fused would have to learn from scratch ,but each fused has one surge. it would be easier to learn one surge than it is to learn two surges and their combinations . Odium did'nt want to make new fused in past but,,, you guys know that  odium has  changed his mind till the end of ROW and he could bring new fused at any time . and then there is matter of gods .

 

6 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Spren aren't hurt by their knight dying, and find bonding again therapeutic, so that's not an issue at all.

It does become issue at the end of ROW. Enemy found a way to prevent spren from bonding. that means no new radiants , while enemy can add as much fused as he wants. 

 

only solution i see is a mutual agreement between humans and singers but fused and most regals would never do that. 

Edited December 22, 2022 by nyxvoid

[therunner]

1 hour ago, nyxvoid said:

It does become issue at the end of ROW. Enemy found a way to prevent spren from bonding. that means no new radiants , while enemy can add as much fused as he wants.

No they did not? What are you referring to?
The only thing they found is a way to kill spren permanently, which however also works against Fused.

[alder24]

3 hours ago, nyxvoid said:

what about thunderclasts. they are huge and . huge. and there are lot of thunderclasts. that  we have yet to see.

You mean the huge monsters being scared of a Radient? They cool and scary, but not that powerful tbf. 

9 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

The less crazy ones. The others just stare at walls.

Taln is in the same state and he still was able to catch the dart with impossible speed.  Even the craziest Fused would most likely still be able to fight - muscle memory 

7 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I truly hope the last 30 hours of oathbringer are just an unfortunately dull point in the story.  Kind of feels like Brandon perhaps wanted this epic thriller mashing up all the good stuff from his other stories but has 100% missed on any jaw dropping moments. 

Spoilers aside, when a certain returned met an unfortunate end my jaw hit the floor.  That was so out of left field and highlighted beautifully just how mortal they were.  

I haven't had any of that yet in stormlight.  The most significant death so far was Sadeas

The Oathbringer starts slowly, but in the second half it's full of great moments, even the most jaw droping, and emotional moment from SA for me is from OB. And if you like Vasher you will get more of Awakening in OB.