Religious consequences[DISCUSS]

[bmcclure7]

19 hours ago, Frustration said:

You are by saying that anyone who doesn't accept the shards is an idiot.

1. I know of no such WoB, could you please provide it?

2. Even if that is true that means that there is a limit to a shards power and they are not omnipotent. 

 Couldn't find the wob I was looking for but I did find this something from row. Unfortunately I can't post it here since this is a misborn spoiler's only. 

[KaladinWorldsinger]

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Atheism, Denies supernatural authority by  Denying  The existence of the supernatural.

No, atheism does not mean the denial of the supernatural. There are many atheist who believe in ghosts, or in mind over matter or other supernatural sounding ideas. Atheism is expressly the denial of any divine authority and worship. If Zeus appeared in front of an atheist, he will only consider Zeus as a very powerful being, 'godlike' in magnitude of power but with no actual authority over the atheist(No one should worship some guy just because he has a bazooka right?). Especially in the modern age, where God now has the Abrahamic notations of omniscience, omnipotence and all-moral, many modern atheists believe in all sorts of things (even vampires) without believing in a God.

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

No, atheism does not mean the denial of the supernatural. There are many atheist who believe in ghosts, or in mind over matter or other supernatural sounding ideas. Atheism is expressly the denial of any divine authority and worship. If Zeus appeared in front of an atheist, he will only consider Zeus as a very powerful being, 'godlike' in magnitude of power but with no actual authority over the atheist(No one should worship some guy just because he has a bazooka right?). Especially in the modern age, where God now has the Abrahamic notations of omniscience, omnipotence and all-moral, many modern atheists believe in all sorts of things (even vampires) without believing in a God.

a·the·ist

/ˈāTHēəst/

Learn to pronounce

 

noun

1. a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

    

    The dictionary definite the clearly States that atheists do not believe in the existence of God. Not that they disbelieve in the legitimacy of divine authority which is what you are seem to be implying.

    

   If Zeus appeared before an atheist,  He would have himself examined by a clinical psychologist To see if he was schizophrenic. 

Edited November 23, 2022 by bmcclure7

[Koloss17]

Y’all really aren’t going to let this particular argument die will ya?

[KaladinWorldsinger]

40 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

The full quote here means a person who doesn't believe in God or gods or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods. My definition is the same as the first one. Atheists won't believe(worship or give any authority to) in the Abrahamic God or Zeus even if they saw them.

 

[bmcclure7]

5 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

The full quote here means a person who doesn't believe in God or gods or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods. My definition is the same as the first one. Atheists won't believe(worship or give any authority to) in the Abrahamic God or Zeus even if they saw them.

 

 Re read what you quoted.  You notice the word "existence". 

Your definition is not the same as what you quoted.   

Believe and worship  Are not the same thing. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in God, or gods.  What you're describing is someone who doesn't worship God.  It's a lot closer to a traditional atheist( As in the ancient Romans and Greeks)  than modern word. 

 By your logic I don't believe In the king of England.  This makes no sense.

Edited November 23, 2022 by bmcclure7

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, Ookla the Headmuncher said:

Y’all really aren’t going to let this particular argument die will ya?

When has any online argument ended with "oh wait, you were right,"?

[HSuperLee]

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

When has any online argument ended with "oh wait, you were right,"?

I've seen it happen many times, if you can believe it.

[Proletariat]

5 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 1. Hoid  Has said that he is not an atheist. And even challenges Jasnah on it. 

2. I think you're confusing the meaning of the word God.  God is a title for the supreme supernatural authority. Much like the title king  Is the supreme natural authority.  

 

 Atheism, Denies supernatural authority by  Denying  The existence of the supernatural. You may believe in the exists of animals, Jesus and Mohamad but  You don't believe there is anything supernatural about them.

The Cosmere is a place with the existence of the supernatural is easy to demonstrate and prove.

So atheism As a means to deny Supernatural authority doesn't quite make sense with their reality. It's not to say it's not possible, Flat Earther exist afteral,  But I find it unlikely that it will ever become a norm or widespread.

 

3.This doesn't mean that there aren't other ways to deny supernatural authority. Is these art strictly atheism. 

 4.Why exactly would becoming more cosmere aware make you more skeptical of the gods? Because they're flawed?  That's a very Abrahamic perspective. Apart from hoid, other preshatering imortals and the shards themselves There's no reason for anyone in the Cosmere to have this perspective. 

 

 Is it because  Some of the vessels We're original human?  Again a very Abrahamic perspective.  There are plenty of religions where great heroes become gods. 

 And even if you take  The perspective that a God must have  Not have a human origin. There was still the shards themselves,  Not to mention the aethers.

 

I feel like this is still conflating a few things.

The functional disagreement between atheism and religious doctrines comes down to two things: 

1) how you interpret the things that you can see/touch/etc.; and,

2) whether you have faith in the things that you can't prove to yourself.

 

This means an atheist in the Cosmere would understand investiture as a form of energy much like electricity or gas that can do significant things but can be understood. It is not magic, and its users are not gods. This means for atheism on Scadrial that:

a) the Lord Ruler is not god but is instead a tyrant with full access to feruchemy and allomancy due to tapping liquid investiture; 

b ) that Vin is not a goddess but instead an allomancer who managed to connect to gaseous investiture; 

c) that Kelsier is not a god but instead a cognitive shadow;

d) that Marsh is not 'death' but instead someone who's been stabbed with a lot of hemalurgic spikes and stayed alive through compounding atium; and,

e) that Sazed is a feruchemist who is trying to balance two huge chunks of investiture.

 

The difference here is not in whether you acknowledge the existence of investiture or the people who've used it for significant things, but instead the spiritual meaning that you attribute to these events and people. It's a difference in interpretation. These interactions from the Lost Metal might be helpful for understanding this:

 

“Wayne wiped his brow, leaving an unconscious gangster on the floor. “You got the magic boxes?”
“They’re not magic, Wayne,” Marasi said. “Malwish technology is just different but—”

 ...

“Wow,” Marasi whispered. “That’s … magic?”
“Is Allomancy magic?” Moonlight asked.
“Of course not,” Marasi said.
“Neither is this,” Moonlight said. “To repair something, I merely rewrite the past, making the object think it was well-maintained or never broke. Like I said, universal stamps are a new technology. I don’t have them working perfectly yet, but they’ll do for now.”
It felt magical to Marasi regardless. Allomancy was one thing—it made perfect sense to be able to use metal to Push on other pieces of metal. But rewriting the past of an object? How was that not magical?

Marasi is not insisting that allomancy isn't real when she says that it's just technology, but rather that it's not magical. It is entirely plausible that people would extend that framework to include Sazed, Kelsier etc. while accepting that they exist and are powerful.

[bmcclure7]

2 hours ago, Proletariat said:

I feel like this is still conflating a few things.

The functional disagreement between atheism and religious doctrines comes down to two things: 

1) how you interpret the things that you can see/touch/etc.; and,

2) whether you have faith in the things that you can't prove to yourself.

 

This means an atheist in the Cosmere would understand investiture as a form of energy much like electricity or gas that can do significant things but can be understood. It is not magic, and its users are not gods. This means for atheism on Scadrial that:

a) the Lord Ruler is not god but is instead a tyrant with full access to feruchemy and allomancy due to tapping liquid investiture; 

b ) that Vin is not a goddess but instead an allomancer who managed to connect to gaseous investiture; 

c) that Kelsier is not a god but instead a cognitive shadow;

d) that Marsh is not 'death' but instead someone who's been stabbed with a lot of hemalurgic spikes and stayed alive through compounding atium; and,

e) that Sazed is a feruchemist who is trying to balance two huge chunks of investiture.

 

The difference here is not in whether you acknowledge the existence of investiture or the people who've used it for significant things, but instead the spiritual meaning that you attribute to these events and people. It's a difference in interpretation. These interactions from the Lost Metal might be helpful for understanding this:

 

“Wayne wiped his brow, leaving an unconscious gangster on the floor. “You got the magic boxes?”
“They’re not magic, Wayne,” Marasi said. “Malwish technology is just different but—”

 ...

“Wow,” Marasi whispered. “That’s … magic?”
“Is Allomancy magic?” Moonlight asked.
“Of course not,” Marasi said.
“Neither is this,” Moonlight said. “To repair something, I merely rewrite the past, making the object think it was well-maintained or never broke. Like I said, universal stamps are a new technology. I don’t have them working perfectly yet, but they’ll do for now.”
It felt magical to Marasi regardless. Allomancy was one thing—it made perfect sense to be able to use metal to Push on other pieces of metal. But rewriting the past of an object? How was that not magical?

Marasi is not insisting that allomancy isn't real when she says that it's just technology, but rather that it's not magical. It is entirely plausible that people would extend that framework to include Sazed, Kelsier etc. while accepting that they exist and are powerful.

1.  I feel like you're 2 points don't reflect actual religious doctrine and more   An atheist opinion of that doctrine.

 

2. Investuir is magic by every definition of the word. 

A. It Breakers the laws of nature world.

B. It Comes from another world literally a spiritual realm.

C. It predates the national world. 

D. Is literally the body of the God that created the world. 

How can you honestly say it is not magic? What reason could you possibly have for saying that?

Yes the characters in world may not consider it magic, but that's just because of familiarity.

I noticed you didn't quote Marasi reaction to the magic of other worlders because when not blind by familiarity she recognized it as supernatural. 

Regardless of what the characters might investiture is magic objectively so.

3. The difference in between atheism and theism is not interpretation but fundamental beliefs about reality. 

So if what only is difference between this view point and religions view point is one interpretation then what you are describing is not Atheism. At least not as we know it. 

 

[Proletariat]

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

1.  I feel like you're 2 points don't reflect actual religious doctrine and more   An atheist opinion of that doctrine.

 

2. Investuir is magic by every definition of the word. 

A. It Breakers the laws of nature world.

B. It Comes from another world literally a spiritual realm.

C. It predates the national world. 

D. Is literally the body of the God that created the world. 

How can you honestly say it is not magic? What reason could you possibly have for saying that?

Yes the characters in world may not consider it magic, but that's just because of familiarity.

I noticed you didn't quote Marasi reaction to the magic of other worlders because when not blind by familiarity she recognized it as supernatural. 

Regardless of what the characters might investiture is magic objectively so.

3. The difference in between atheism and theism is not interpretation but fundamental beliefs about reality. 

So if what only is difference between this view point and religions view point is one interpretation then what you are describing is not Atheism. At least not as we know it. 

 

There's a bit of circular reasoning going on here.

There are a lot of reasons why people on Scadrial might consider Sazed to be a god, but an argument that starts with the unprovable assertion that Sazed must be a god and hence the existence of investiture is proof of gods is not conclusive. This dispute as to the unprovable question of divinity is the crux of the higher order debate between religion and atheism of which everything else is a sub-point since atheism isn't simply a rebuttal of a specific origin myth.

It isn't enough to declare that Sazed is powerful or has abilities that not everyone understand nor is it enough to say we know the origin of Scadrial. Those are common debates between atheists and Christians here due to the specific content of the Bible, but very obviously Scadrial is not the world we live in and Sazed is not Jesus. Similarly, it's not enough to declare atheism as denialism and refuse to explore or defend that outside of copy pasting a dictionary. It makes it impossible to have a conversation with a resolution, because the circular reasoning justifies itself and jams us from moving forward.

Furthermore, any sufficiently developed technology is indistinguishable from magic. This is a world where they don't just have gas, electricity, nuclear etc. but also investiture and it's reasonably explicable. It seems pointlessly insistent to declare that it must be magic when no one walks away from an X-men movie thinking mutants are magic simply because there are extraordinary traits not present in the real world. And so what if investiture is the same material that created the world? It's not like I'm gonna worship atoms and atomic bombs just because of the Big Bang, right? 

Edited November 24, 2022 by Proletariat

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Proletariat said:

There's a bit of circular reasoning going on here.

There are a lot of reasons why people on Scadrial might consider Sazed to be a god, but an argument that starts with the unprovable assertion that Sazed must be a god and hence the existence of investiture is proof of gods is not conclusive. This dispute as to the unprovable question of divinity is the crux of the higher order debate between religion and atheism of which everything else is a sub-point since atheism isn't simply a rebuttal of a specific origin myth.

It isn't enough to declare that Sazed is powerful or has abilities that not everyone understand nor is it enough to say we know the origin of Scadrial. Those are common debates between atheists and Christians here due to the specific content of the Bible, but very obviously Scadrial is not the world we live in and Sazed is not Jesus. Similarly, it's not enough to declare atheism as denialism and refuse to explore or defend that outside of copy pasting a dictionary. It makes it impossible to have a conversation with a resolution, because the circular reasoning justifies itself and jams us from moving forward.

Furthermore, any sufficiently developed technology is indistinguishable from magic. This is a world where they don't just have gas, electricity, nuclear etc. but also investiture and it's reasonably explicable. It seems pointlessly insistent to declare that it must be magic when no one walks away from an X-men movie thinking mutants are magic simply because there are extraordinary traits not present in the real world. And so what if investiture is the same material that created the world? It's not like I'm gonna worship atoms and atomic bombs just because of the Big Bang, right? 

 I am not actually debating whether Sazed is God. Merely pointing out that atheism As we know itIs a nearly impossible position to defend intellectually within the cosmere. 

1. If you don't like what atheism definition is talk to the dictionary. Don't get mad at me for pointing out that your view of atheism is not atheism according to the dictionary. 

 

2. Wrong, Sufficiently advanced technology Only applies the laws of physics, It is a part of this world.  Technology no matter how advanced only appears  As magic to  Those ignorant of the natural laws.

Magic violates laws of physics because it is not a part of this world.   Is therefore not bound by our physical laws. It is mistaken for advanced technology only by those ignorant of the natural law.

3. This has nothing to do with any real world debate. This isn't Christianity vs atheism or   buddhism vs atheism. 

This is merely a discussion Of atheism within this within this fictional universe.

 

4. Honestly if the X-Men existed in real life what they do would magical pretty much. We can talk about mutations all we want but mutations do not give you the power to shoot lasers out of your eyes. However we accept their powers as natural because we are told that their powers are within The spectrum of the natural world ( They're natural world not ours)

 We are told just the opposite about investure.  We are told very clearly that it is not natural. That comes from a different realm,  That  Pre dates this world  That it created this world.

 

5.  Investiure isn't just  The material that makes up the cosmere it's the literal  Body of the creator of the cosmere.  That's not the same thing as an atoms by any means. 

 

6.  If you could prove that Atoms  We're supernatural that they were the literal body of a God, Would you worship them?  Maybe maybe not. But You wouldn't disbelieve in them. So technically speaking you would not be an atheist. Just someone who didn't worship the Atom God. 

The only way for you to be an atheist would be to deny the existence Of these magical Atoms,  Deny that they were supernatural,  Or simply just be ignorant of the supernatural nature. 

Edited November 24, 2022 by bmcclure7

[Proletariat]

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

 I am not actually debating whether Sazed is God. Merely pointing out that atheism As we know itIs a nearly impossible position to defend intellectually within the cosmere. 

1. If you don't like what atheism definition is talk to the dictionary. Don't get mad at me for pointing out that your view of atheism is not atheism according to the dictionary. 

 

2. Wrong, Sufficiently advanced technology Only applies the laws of physics, It is a part of this world.  Technology no matter how advanced only appears  As magic to  Those ignorant of the natural laws.

Magic violates laws of physics because it is not a part of this world.   Is therefore not bound by our physical laws. It is mistaken for advanced technology only by those ignorant of the natural law.

3. This has nothing to do with any real world debate. This isn't Christianity vs atheism or   buddhism vs atheism. 

This is merely a discussion Of atheism within this within this fictional universe.

 

4. Honestly if the X-Men existed in real life what they do would magical pretty much. We can talk about mutations all we want but mutations do not give you the power to shoot lasers out of your eyes. However we accept their powers as natural because we are told that their powers are within The spectrum of the natural world ( They're natural world not ours)

 We are told just the opposite about investure.  We are told very clearly that it is not natural. That comes from a different realm,  That  Pre dates this world  That it created this world.

 

5.  Investiure isn't just  The material that makes up the cosmere it's the literal  Body of the creator of the cosmere.  That's not the same thing as an atoms by any means. 

 

6.  If you could prove that Atoms  We're supernatural that they were the literal body of a God, Would you worship them?  Maybe maybe not. But You wouldn't disbelieve in them. So technically speaking you would not be an atheist. Just someone who didn't worship the Atom God. 

The only way for you to be an atheist would be to deny the existence Of these magical Atoms,  Deny that they were supernatural,  Or simply just be ignorant of the supernatural nature. 

I'm not 'mad', but I do think this conversation can't go anywhere further so long as you keep insisting on this circular line of reasoning. And it's not the dictionary I'm disagreeing with, but your very limited interpretation of the definitions in front of you.

Edited November 24, 2022 by Proletariat

[therunner]

3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Magic violates laws of physics because it is not a part of this world.   Is therefore not bound by our physical laws. It is mistaken for advanced technology only by those ignorant of the natural law.

And natural laws of cosmere include Investiture, and Investiture is bound by certain mechanism (i.e. conservation laws https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e1649, thermodynamics https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3544) that are inviolable. Apparently there is even 4th law of thermodynamics that exists only in Cosmere due to presence of Investiture. Most in Cosmere don't yet understand those, but they exist and are relevant.
Shards for example cannot just turn-off Invested Art for someone (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171/#e8160 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/370/#e11817 ), if the person fulfills the requirements the Art will work and that is it, because that is the natural law.

3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

We are told just the opposite about investure.  We are told very clearly that it is not natural. That comes from a different realm,  That  Pre dates this world  That it created this world.

The fact that their world also has additional discrete dimensions on top of the usual space-time (with their own different physical laws, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3413 ) does not make it per se magical or not natural, hence existence of Investiture is not proof of supernatural, not in Cosmere.

On Scadrial it was used to create the planet, however claiming that is proof of divinity does not hold, it is functionally equivalent of building a Dyson swarm (or sphere) only difference is number of being involved and time scale.

EDIT: In fact Brandon considers Investiture to be just another branch of physics https://wob.coppermind.net/events/117/#e1690 .

Edited November 24, 2022 by therunner
spelling

[bmcclure7]

8 hours ago, Proletariat said:

I'm not 'mad', but I do think this conversation can't go anywhere further so long as you keep insisting on this circular line of reasoning. And it's not the dictionary I'm disagreeing with, but your very limited interpretation of the definitions in front of you.

 I'm literally reading what the dictionary says. 

 

How exactly am I circular reasoning?    I stated that Atheism is difficult to justify because of  Investiure.  What is circular about that?

 This conversation also can't go anywhere as long as you make up definitions for words.

Edited November 24, 2022 by bmcclure7

[bmcclure7]

5 hours ago, therunner said:

And natural laws of cosmere include Investiture, and Investiture is bound by certain mechanism (i.e. conservation laws https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e1649, thermodynamics https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3544) that are inviolable. Apparently there is even 4th law of thermodynamics that exists only in Cosmere due to presence of Investiture. Most in Cosmere don't yet understand those, but they exist and are relevant.
Shards for example cannot just turn-off Invested Art for someone (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171/#e8160 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/370/#e11817 ), if the person fulfills the requirements the Art will work and that is it, because that is the natural law.

The fact that their world also has additional discrete dimensions on top of the usual space-time (with their own different physical laws, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3413 ) does not make it per se magical or not natural, hence existence of Investiture is not proof of supernatural, not in Cosmere.

On Scadrial it was used to create the planet, however claiming that is proof of divinity does not hold, it is functionally equivalent of building a Dyson swarm (or sphere) only difference is number of being involved and time scale.

EDIT: In fact Brandon considers Investiture to be just another branch of physics https://wob.coppermind.net/events/117/#e1690 .

1.  Just because something is bound by certain mechanics does not mean part of the natural world. Go to someone who actually believes or practice is magic in our world they will tell you that magic is also bound by certain mechanics. 

 

2.Wrong,  Something that comes from another world And can violate the laws of our world because of that is the very definition of supernatural. 

Super definition 

over and above : higher in quantity, quality, or degree than : more than. superhuman. (2) : in addition.

 

nat·u·ral

/ˈnaCH(ə)rəl/

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See definitions in:

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adjective

1. 1.

   existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.

   "carrots contain a natural antiseptic that fights bacteria"

    
2. 2.

   of or in agreement with the character or makeup of, or circumstances surrounding, someone or something.

    

    

   supernatural

   [ soo-per-nach-er-uhl, -nach-ruhl ]SHOW IPA

    

    

   See synonyms for supernatural on Thesaurus.com

    

   ---

   adjective

   of, relating to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.

    

    

3. It's because it's a brand of physics, Also means nothing. Look at alchemist, Look at magi. If You can mix the study of science and magic even in our world and surely you can in the cosmere.

 

4.  Why do you keep comparing it to technology like Dyson swarm. All modern technology even the Dyson's swarm  Is the application of natural laws without outside interference from beyond this natural world.  Does not compare too Investiure. 

 I am posting dictionary definitions because you are trying to change the definition of things to fit your argument. You can't do that.

Edited November 24, 2022 by bmcclure7

[therunner]

3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

1.  Just because something is bound by certain mechanics does not mean part of the natural world. Go to someone who actually believes or practice is magic in our world they will tell you that magic is also bound by certain mechanics. 

 

2.Wrong,  Something that comes from another world And can violate the laws of our world because of that is the very definition of supernatural. 

Super definition 

over and above : higher in quantity, quality, or degree than : more than. superhuman. (2) : in addition.

 

nat·u·ral

/ˈnaCH(ə)rəl/

Learn to pronounce

See definitions in:

All

Music

Religion

Bridge

Cards

Gambling

Fishing

Angling

adjective

1. 1.

   existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.

   "carrots contain a natural antiseptic that fights bacteria"

    
2. 2.

   of or in agreement with the character or makeup of, or circumstances surrounding, someone or something.

    

    

   supernatural

   [ soo-per-nach-er-uhl, -nach-ruhl ]SHOW IPA

    

    

   See synonyms for supernatural on Thesaurus.com

    

   ---

   adjective

   of, relating to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.

    

    

3. It's because it's a brand of physics, Also means nothing. Look at alchemist, Look at magi. If You can mix the study of science and magic even in our world and surely you can in the cosmere.

 

4.  Why do you keep comparing it to technology like Dyson swarm. All modern technology even the Dyson's swarm  Is the application of natural laws without outside interference from beyond this natural world.  Does not compare too Investiure. 

 I am posting dictionary definitions because you are trying to change the definition of things to fit your argument. You can't do that.

And I am saying that what is natural in Cosmere is different to what is natural in our world, and that is the nature of the world per the author.
You are using definition of natural from our world, not of the Cosmere.

Since you like dictionary definitions, take a look at definition of Natural: existing in or derived from nature; not made or caused by humankind.

Investiture is existing freely in nature in Cosmere, and is neither made nor cause by humankind, hence is natural not supernatural. Application of Investiture is just technology, just like Dyson swarm would be.

And neither alchemist nor magi were working within scientific framework nor could describe and reproduce well defined results or predict new ones, unlike e.g Khriss or Silverlight university, or Navani and Raboniel, or scientist from Scadrial.

Edited November 24, 2022 by therunner
spelling

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

And I am saying that what is natural in Cosmere is different to what is natural in our world, and that is the nature of the world per the author.
You are using definition of natural from our world, not of the Cosmere.

Since you like dictionary definitions, take a look at definition of Natural: existing in or derived from nature; not made or caused by humankind.

Investiture is existing freely in nature in Cosmere, and is neither made nor cause by humankind, hence is natural not supernatural. Application of Investiture is just technology, just like Dyson swarm would be.

And neither alchemist nor magi were working within scientific framework nor could describe and reproduce well defined results or predict new ones, unlike e.g Khriss or Silverlight university, or Navani and Raboniel, or scientist from Scadrial.

1.Read lost metal again, wax plain says that Investiure breaks the laws natural laws,  there laws not ours. 

2.  Even that aside it doesn't change the fact that investure specifically said to predate the natural world and was responsible for its creation.   If it created the natural world how could it itself be Natural?

3.  Investure specifically said to come from the spiritual realm.   This is really the death nail as it is not of there world literally.  It comes from a world beyond there's.  How can you with a straight face called part of the natural world when it comes from a completely different world. By definition it's not natural it's spiritual as it comes from the spiritual world. 

 

It may exist in nature, But it is not a part of nature. 

 

I don't see how method you use to study something can change what that thing is.  Just because I use the scientific method to study investure does not change its nature. 

[Koloss17]

Folks, folks, are we really having an argument of definitions? 

[therunner]

11 hours ago, Ookla the Headmuncher said:

Folks, folks, are we really having an argument of definitions? 

Apparently so :/

11 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

1.Read lost metal again, wax plain says that Investiure breaks the laws natural laws,  there laws not ours.

Wax is not a scientist, and he specifically means the 'seeming' laws of physical realm, i.e. coinshot can generate force 'out of nowhere', F-gold can create cells, etc.
But that is only because he does not include Investiture in his considerations, if someone in our world did not know about electricity and photoelectric effect then toy car powered by a solar cell would look like it is breaking natural laws.

11 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

2.  Even that aside it doesn't change the fact that investure specifically said to predate the natural world and was responsible for its creation.   If it created the natural world how could it itself be Natural?

Where is it stated that Investiture predates natural world? As far as we know Investiture has always been part of the star cluster that is the Cosmere.
Ruin and Preservation created a planet called Scadrial using it yes, but predating a planet is not the same as predating the natural world.

11 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

3.  Investure specifically said to come from the spiritual realm.   This is really the death nail as it is not of there world literally.  It comes from a world beyond there's.  How can you with a straight face called part of the natural world when it comes from a completely different world. By definition it's not natural it's spiritual as it comes from the spiritual world. 

Spiritual realm is just another realm of existence, one without space and time dimensions. I could call it 'dimensionless parallel universe with high potential of Investiture field' that contains excitation paralleling excitation of other two universes (physical and cognitive).
Name does not define what a thing is.

It can be looked into, it can be manipulated (hemalurgy, bondsmithing), so it is going to be subject to experimentation and description, just as any other part of reality.

11 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

It may exist in nature, But it is not a part of nature.

How does that work? If it was not created, and it exists in nature, how is it not part of nature?
I think this position is the source of the disagreement here, as we probably have wildly different positions on this.

Edit: To answer the original question of the thread, I think that some will question Harmony, and some might move to Survivorism (which would kind of strength Autonomy, as one of the cores of it is independence). Others might move beyond gods to Atheism (in the sense of not considering Shards or Slivers divine, only potential powerful) and the rest might adopt the doctrine of 'trust Harmony for they work in mysterious ways'.

Trell will continue to play role in Era 3 (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/377/#e12227), but I think it will be in position of someone who hijacks Survivorism, as 1. Autonomy is a fan of Kelsier and 2. The tenants are already pretty close to what Autonomy fosters (arguably even more independent even).

So to sum up, in my opinion the results will be diminishing of Pathism, strengthening of Survivorism and its further shift to valuing being self-reliant and independent, minor appearance of atheism. The second point will then set the stage for Trell to take over Survivorism for her own ends.

Regarding Southern Scadrial, I have no clue.

Edited November 25, 2022 by therunner
attempt at re-railing

[bmcclure7]

8 hours ago, therunner said:

Apparently so :/

Wax is not a scientist, and he specifically means the 'seeming' laws of physical realm, i.e. coinshot can generate force 'out of nowhere', F-gold can create cells, etc.
But that is only because he does not include Investiture in his considerations, if someone in our world did not know about electricity and photoelectric effect then toy car powered by a solar cell would look like it is breaking natural laws.

Where is it stated that Investiture predates natural world? As far as we know Investiture has always been part of the star cluster that is the Cosmere.
Ruin and Preservation created a planet called Scadrial using it yes, but predating a planet is not the same as predating the natural world.

Spiritual realm is just another realm of existence, one without space and time dimensions. I could call it 'dimensionless parallel universe with high potential of Investiture field' that contains excitation paralleling excitation of other two universes (physical and cognitive).
Name does not define what a thing is.

It can be looked into, it can be manipulated (hemalurgy, bondsmithing), so it is going to be subject to experimentation and description, just as any other part of reality.

How does that work? If it was not created, and it exists in nature, how is it not part of nature?
I think this position is the source of the disagreement here, as we probably have wildly different positions on this.

Edit: To answer the original question of the thread, I think that some will question Harmony, and some might move to Survivorism (which would kind of strength Autonomy, as one of the cores of it is independence). Others might move beyond gods to Atheism (in the sense of not considering Shards or Slivers divine, only potential powerful) and the rest might adopt the doctrine of 'trust Harmony for they work in mysterious ways'.

Trell will continue to play role in Era 3 (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/377/#e12227), but I think it will be in position of someone who hijacks Survivorism, as 1. Autonomy is a fan of Kelsier and 2. The tenants are already pretty close to what Autonomy fosters (arguably even more independent even).

So to sum up, in my opinion the results will be diminishing of Pathism, strengthening of Survivorism and its further shift to valuing being self-reliant and independent, minor appearance of atheism. The second point will then set the stage for Trell to take over Survivorism for her own ends.

Regarding Southern Scadrial, I have no clue.

1.

"coinshot can generate force 'out of nowhere', F-gold can create cells, etc.
But that is only because he does not include Investiture in his considerations, if someone in our world did not know about electricity and photoelectric effect then toy car powered by a solar cell would look like it is breaking natural laws."

 

A. Wax may not be a scientist but he knows the scientific method and he knows scientific laws. He Clearly has a scientific education,  Even if hes not expert in any scientific field. He recognizes that investiture  Violates natural law. And so doesn't consider it part of the natural world governed by scientific law.

B. Electricity is part of the natural world investure is not.  Electricity doesn't come from another plane of existence. Electricity is not the body of a being predated the world and was responsible for its creation.

C.  Electricity  Is limited it cannot violate other natural laws . I can use electricity to power my house. But I can't lose electricity to grow back my heart, I can use electricity to fly, But I can't use it to transport me to another dimension. I may power my car with your Electricity,  But I cannot create the universe with electricity.

 

This is in contrast to investure,  Brandon Sanderson has implied in several occasions that with enough investure you can do pretty much anything.   Even over writing its own laws.

 

2."Spiritual realm is just another realm of existence"

 You could say the same thing about hell,  Heaven, Mount Olympus,  Asgard,  Or literally any other spiritual world from any other religion. 

 

Giving it a fancy more Modern sounding name does not change what it is.  It is a dimensional realm outside of the natural world. 

 

 And just because you can use the scientific method on something doesn't change its nature.   If were are transported to Asgard or Mount Olympus.  And we're able to then use the scientific method to  On Asgard And mountain olympus, Would that make them part of the natural world?  An absurd question,   if Asgard exist, And was accurate to what North mythology describes, Then it Could not be part of the natural world, No matter how often you use the scientific method on it. Because it is of a fundamental different nature.

3.  As I've already pointed out investure may exist in the natural world, but

 

A.  It predates the creation of natural world. 

 

B. Is not bound by the laws of the natural world.

C. Comes from another dimension not the dimension of the natural world.

3. I feel that our fundamental confusion, Is derived from the subconscious definition of reality that you're using. 

 You seem to be acquainting reality ( All  Real things) with the natural world.   Meaning that if you prove that something is real it must therefore be natural. 

 

 

So you're concluding that since investure is real it must be natural.   This is certainly a perspective, But please recognize it is only your perspective. 

 

When I and, I would say most people, use to term natural world We are referring to The world created by The "big Bang" or ( Insert deity of your choice)  Or some combination of the 2. The world composed of Atom's in the form of matter or energy, The world that follows a natural law such as gravity, Or thermodynamics.

 So at least from our perspective it is very possible for something to be a part of reality (  That is is real)   And not part of the natural world. 

 

 

From our perspective investure cannot be part of the natural world.  It comes from a different origin, Is neither matter nor energy, And openly violates the laws of a natural world.

 

I would argue that those in the Cosmere Share our perspective. Wax  Clearly views Investure as  Something that violates natural law. Something which natural law cannot apply to..

 

Edited November 25, 2022 by bmcclure7

[bmcclure7]

18 hours ago, Ookla the Headmuncher said:

Folks, folks, are we really having an argument of definitions? 

 Alass I agree,  The fundamental disagreement seems to my perspective to be on the definition of "reality " and "natural world".  It seems from my perspective that 1 side is using these words  Synonymously,  While the other is not. 

[therunner]

3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 You seem to be acquainting reality ( All  Real things) with the natural world.   Meaning that if you prove that something is real it must therefore be natural. 

So you're concluding that since investure is real it must be natural.   This is certainly a perspective, But please recognize it is only your perspective.

When I and, I would say most people, use to term natural world We are referring to The world created by The "big Bang" or ( Insert deity of your choice)  Or some combination of the 2. The world composed of Atom's in the form of matter or energy, The world that follows a natural law such as gravity, Or thermodynamics.

 So at least from our perspective it is very possible for something to be a part of reality (  That is is real)   And not part of the natural world.

From our perspective investure cannot be part of the natural world.  It comes from a different origin, Is neither matter nor energy, And openly violates the laws of a natural world.

I'll take the liberty of only responding to this part, as I feel that is the actually crucial part of the discussion. And thank you for taking the time to elaborate on your thinking and position on this.

You are correct, I do equate those two things (nature and reality). My position would be that if Investiture (and associated realms) have been created by the same big bang (or deity of choice) then they are equally natural.
I would further argue that if it is not originating from the same 'origin' (be it big bang or deity), but an event further in past can be traced as the driving agent of both Investiture creation and e.g. big bang, then Investiture is again natural.

I do recognize it is only a perspective, and am willing to continue this discussion/debate while doing my best to acknowledge this difference in perspective.

I freely admit that the position you are stating is quite alien to my thinking, however that alone does not make it invalid and so I should not be dismissing it.

3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

I would argue that those in the Cosmere Share our perspective. Wax  Clearly views Investure as  Something that violates natural law. Something which natural law cannot apply to..

Here I would argue that while some (e.g. Wax) do share your perspective, others (e.g. Khriss) are more closely aligned to mine (as she spends pretty much her entire life categorizing Investiture and treating it as "just" another natural aspect of reality, albeit complicated).

So I would suggest we could try and answer the original question of this thread (religious impacts of the TLM events) from both of these differing positions that can be taken, acknowledging that parts of those differing reactions would be driven by this philosophical (? I guess) difference.

[alder24]

3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

From our perspective investure cannot be part of the natural world.  It comes from a different origin, Is neither matter nor energy, And openly violates the laws of a natural world.

The problem is, in Cosmere Investiture is another state of matter and energy:

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner

Your magic systems are very structured, and specific rules that dominate them. But are there any universal laws that apply to all of the magic systems in the cosmere together?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there's several of them. Basically, the most important one and relevant to people who enjoy real physics is that I consider something called Investiture to be a third state of matter and energy. So, instead of e=mc^2, we have a third thing, Investiture, in there. And you can change Investiture to matter or to energy. And so, because of that, that law that you can do this, is where we see a lot of the cosmere magics living.

We also have a kind of rule that beings all exist, everything exists on three different levels. The Physical, the Spiritual, and the Cognitive. And, like we have DNA for our Physical self, we also have Mental DNA and Spiritual DNA, and all three influence one another. For instance, you couldn't test an Allomancer's blood and find the Allomancy gene, because it is in a different set of their DNA. You just have three sets. You could compose a test that could test it on the Spiritual Realm, but you're gonna have to use a different branch of physics to do that and determine who was an Allomancer. And so they all work on this kind of fundamental rules of: your Identity, your Connection, and being part of your soul, and the magics working through those things.

So there's some fundamental rules about this, about changing forms from energy to matter, and you having this Identity, Investiture, and Connection stored in your Spiritual DNA that are really relevant to everything.

ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019)

 

In Cosmere Investiture is inseparable part of natural world, described by laws and set of rules. That however does not mean everyone in Cosmere knows and discovered all those laws. Wax tried to describe mechanisms of Investiture using laws and understanding he possessed at that time - which might not be correct ones.

And here I use a real life example - search for planet Vulcan. Scientists using Newton's law of gravity were calculating and predicting orbits of planets, they observed that the real orbit of Mercury was different than predicted one, and they speculated wrongly that there must be another planet in between Sun and Mercury, that disturbes Mercury's orbit (similar to how they discovered Neptun). They'd been searching for that planet until Einstein's theory of general relativity explain why Mercury's orbit departs from previously predicted one. They were wrong, because Newtonian physics is not precise enough.

Understanding of nature on Scadrial right now is simply not advanced enough to link Investiture with matter and energy and described it as a natural phenomena. The same goes for Cognitive and Spiritual Realms - they are both integral part of Cosmere governed by sets of specifics rules. People like Wax just don't understand that yet.

 

And to get back on tracks - I think that the events of TLM will even increase the numbers of Pathism's followers as people could clearly witness god's divine intervention (even if very restricted) and Kandra presence that saved them, and religion doctrine might simply add Authonomy as a rival to Harmony wanting to destroy Scadrial. People just got the proof that Harmony is a real, powerful god, caring for Scadrial, and they just might ignore implications of existence of other gods - if that information will be shared to public (unlikely, I must say), as for now only selected few (mostly Kandra and Ghostbloods) knows what really was happening and why. For most people it was "just" culmination of the plot against Elendel resolved again by Wax and Wayne and few others - not divine battle over Scadrial existence. So nothing will really change.

[bmcclure7]

4 hours ago, therunner said:

I'll take the liberty of only responding to this part, as I feel that is the actually crucial part of the discussion. And thank you for taking the time to elaborate on your thinking and position on this.

You are correct, I do equate those two things (nature and reality). My position would be that if Investiture (and associated realms) have been created by the same big bang (or deity of choice) then they are equally natural.
I would further argue that if it is not originating from the same 'origin' (be it big bang or deity), but an event further in past can be traced as the driving agent of both Investiture creation and e.g. big bang, then Investiture is again natural.

I do recognize it is only a perspective, and am willing to continue this discussion/debate while doing my best to acknowledge this difference in perspective.

I freely admit that the position you are stating is quite alien to my thinking, however that alone does not make it invalid and so I should not be dismissing it.

Here I would argue that while some (e.g. Wax) do share your perspective, others (e.g. Khriss) are more closely aligned to mine (as she spends pretty much her entire life categorizing Investiture and treating it as "just" another natural aspect of reality, albeit complicated).

So I would suggest we could try and answer the original question of this thread (religious impacts of the TLM events) from both of these differing positions that can be taken, acknowledging that parts of those differing reactions would be driven by this philosophical (? I guess) difference.

I agree this topic has drifted to far a field from the original topic.