Religious consequences[DISCUSS]

[Elder]

On 11/22/2022 at 2:05 PM, bmcclure7 said:

 Shards don't die vessels die but shards don't. Yes, shards are omnipotent.  Harmony  Vision is only blocked because of another Shard who is also omnipotent.

Shards are demonstrably less than omnipotent.

Preservation and Ruin couldn’t create Scadrial individually.   They had to team up.  Storms, none of the other Shards created their worlds, they just picked up after Adonalsium left off.

  Honor is bad at Fortune, thus showing a certain lack of omniscience, but Odium and Cultuvation are good at it, though they both have to contend with uncertainties, both brought about by each other, and their own power (see Renarin).

Don’t even get me started on Harmony.  In some ways, he’s less omnipotent than other shards.  He literally gets in his own way.

The shards are limited by their intent, and possibly their portfolio.  

Beyond that, I’d argue there’s room and even ample justification for a completely different kind of atheism in the Cosmere: one born of knowledgeable disgust.  A rejection of the shards as children playing with powers beyond their comprehension, or powers beyond comprehension playing with children.  Given how Shards have demonstrated little influence on what happens after death, beyond a send-off and the occasional cognitive shadow creation, the mortals of the Cosmere are free to reject the Shards with little consequence, if any.

 

[bmcclure7]

6 hours ago, Elder said:

Shards are demonstrably less than omnipotent.

Preservation and Ruin couldn’t create Scadrial individually.   They had to team up.  Storms, none of the other Shards created their worlds, they just picked up after Adonalsium left off.

  Honor is bad at Fortune, thus showing a certain lack of omniscience, but Odium and Cultuvation are good at it, though they both have to contend with uncertainties, both brought about by each other, and their own power (see Renarin).

Don’t even get me started on Harmony.  In some ways, he’s less omnipotent than other shards.  He literally gets in his own way.

The shards are limited by their intent, and possibly their portfolio.  

Beyond that, I’d argue there’s room and even ample justification for a completely different kind of atheism in the Cosmere: one born of knowledgeable disgust.  A rejection of the shards as children playing with powers beyond their comprehension, or powers beyond comprehension playing with children.  Given how Shards have demonstrated little influence on what happens after death, beyond a send-off and the occasional cognitive shadow creation, the mortals of the Cosmere are free to reject the Shards with little consequence, if any.

 

1.  Incorrect, Preservation and ruin couldn't create themselves because of their intent not because they lack the power. Other shards of equal power but with different intent can create demonstrating that It is well within there capabilities. 

 

2.  We don't know why he was bad at fortune, The vessel is a limit on The Shard, So it could be that this was just Something unique to the vessel. Alternatively his intent could make it difficult,  Either way I don't see how this detracts from the omniscience of the shard. 

3. I agree but what you are describing isn't atheism but it's not how we know it. I'm not saying everyone will follow the shards or worship them.  But that's not the same as disbelief in the existence of.  Satan is by definition not an atheist. 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by bmcclure7

[Frustration]

48 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

2.  We don't know why he was bad at fortune, The vessel is a limit on The Shard, So it could be that this was just Something unique to the vessel. Alternatively his intent could make it difficult,  Either way I don't see how this detracts from the omniscience of the shard.

We do know, while the vessel has an impact, some shards are just qualitatively better

Spoiler

Questioner

Is the ability to foretell the future, we know that some Shardholders are better at that than others, is that dependent on the Shard or the holders.

Brandon Sanderson

On the Shards. No, let me say both.

Questioner

Both?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Because your own-- yeah.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/21/#e4552

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Elder]

58 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1.  Incorrect, Preservation and ruin couldn't create themselves because of their intent not because they lack the power. Other shards of equal power but with different intent can create demonstrating that It is well within there capabilities. 

 

2.  We don't know why he was bad at fortune, The vessel is a limit on The Shard, So it could be that this was just Something unique to the vessel. Alternatively his intent could make it difficult,  Either way I don't see how this detracts from the omniscience of the shard. 

3. I agree but what you are describing isn't atheism but it's not how we know it. I'm not saying everyone will follow the shards or worship them.  But that's not the same as disbelief in the existence of.  Satan is by definition not an atheist. 

 

 

1.  Name one Shard that’s actually a creator.  They’ve all either taken over a limited portion of Adonalsium’s creation, or it’s Preservation a Ruin’s combined attempt. Omnipotence means no limits.  If the Intent (an inherent part of the Shard, not the vessel) is limiting them, they’re not omnipotent.

2.  If Honor couldn’t reliably know the future, he wasn’t omniscient.  Omniscience knows the future by plain definition.

3.  You need to talk to more Atheists.  Many don’t reject God because of science.  They reject God because they can’t accept God having created an imperfect world.  Ironically, most Satanists are actually Atheists.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Elder

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

We do know, while the vessel has an impact, some shards are just qualitatively better

  Hide contents

Questioner

Is the ability to foretell the future, we know that some Shardholders are better at that than others, is that dependent on the Shard or the holders.

Brandon Sanderson

On the Shards. No, let me say both.

Questioner

Both?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Because your own-- yeah.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/21/#e4552

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In that case it's probably a limited imposed by the entent of the shard.

[bmcclure7]

5 hours ago, Elder said:

1.  Name one Shard that’s actually a creator.  They’ve all either taken over a limited portion of Adonalsium’s creation, or it’s Preservation a Ruin’s combined attempt. Omnipotence means no limits.  If the Intent (an inherent part of the Shard, not the vessel) is limiting them, they’re not omnipotent.

2.  If Honor couldn’t reliably know the future, he wasn’t omniscient.  Omniscience knows the future by plain definition.

3.  You need to talk to more Atheists.  Many don’t reject God because of science.  They reject God because they can’t accept God having created an imperfect world.  Ironically, most Satanists are actually Atheists.

1. Endowment

 

2. no the vessel couldn't  reliably see the future.  As I have already stated vessel are limiters of there shard as well as their intents. 

 

3. You seem to have multiple misunderstandings about atheist in your statment I need to break it down in order to explain 

 

 

A. Some Atheists reject the EXISTS of the  abrahamic God for because of our imperfect world. They Argue that our imperfect world is proof that God does EXIST. That is not what your discibing. No one is saying that the shards don't really exist.

 

B. Never said anything about atheism having anything to do with science.

C. Atheist reject more than just the abrahamic God so they'll of course have more reasons than just this to justify Atheism.

E. I said Satan not Satanist.

 

Satan of Christianity not only knows God exists he lives in  terror of him. He is clearly no atheist. 

Edited February 5, 2023 by bmcclure7

[Elder]

5 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. Endowment

 

2. no the vessel couldn't  reliably see the future.  As I have already stated vessel are limiters of there shard as well as their intents. 

 

3. You seem to have multiple misunderstandings about atheist in your statment I need to break it down in order to explain 

 

 

A. Some Atheists reject the EXISTS of the  abrahamic God for because of our imperfect world. They Argue that our imperfect world is proof that God does EXIST. That is not what your discibing. No one is saying that the shards don't really exist.

 

B. Never said anything about atheism having anything to do with science.

C. Atheist reject more than just the abrahamic God so they'll of course have more reasons than just this to justify Atheism.

E. I said Satan not Satanist.

 

Satan of Christianity not only knows God exists he lives in  terror of him. He is clearly no atheist. 

1.  I wasn’t aware of any indication that Nalthis wasn’t a world of Adonalsium.  As far as I was aware, Scadrial was the only one.  By creator, I meant creator of worlds if I wasn’t clear.  As far as I know, it took two shards to make one world.  Two to create one sentient life form on that world.

2.  If the Shard limits itself due to intent, then the Shard isn’t omnipotent. 
Are you sure it was Tanavast who had a problem with Fortune?  Or Honor?  when he confessed that Cultivation was better at it than he was, he didn’t call her Koravellium.  Either way, he was expressly not omniscient.  Cultivation admitted to not knowing things, making her by definition not omniscient.

3.  I would point to John Fry’s atheism as a refutation of this. 
 

in the Cosmere:  Era 1 Kelsier.  Obviously doesn’t believe in the god placed before him.  Through no small amount of deception, he puts himself up as an alternative god.  Upon death, the first thing he does is punch Preservation in the face, and gets front row seats to just how not omnipotent Leras has become.  Even in era two, bring much more Cosmere aware, he’s a friend to Sazed, not a worshipper by any stretch of the imagination.

By this point I’d say Jasnah believes in a similar sort of atheism, and Kaladin is agnostic.

The Shards are just shy of perfect, clearly not omniscient or omnipotent.  They’re powerful enough to be worshipped as gods, but not enough to really be God, despite what they may think of themselves.

Getting back on track.

Harmony isn’t widely worshipped on Scadrial.  Kelsier is worshipped on two continents under different names, for all he cares.  Nor is Harmony’s power dependent on worship.  I can’t say anything has changed in that regard.  Might change in the future though.  Discord is supposed to be the beloved god.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Elder

[Frustration]

6 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

In that case it's probably a limited imposed by the entent of the shard.

That seems like a cop out.

Brandon has stated that no future sight is perfect, like at all.

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

That seems like a cop out.

Brandon has stated that no future sight is perfect, like at all.

Of course not but what's that have to do with it? I already state that shards are limited by vessels. 

The vessel while fused with a god, he was once human. A human mind even a the superhuman mind of a vessel can not comprehend infinite possible future.  That why they act limiters to shards. The power of infinite god melded with flawed humanity.  

As for intent with have seen already that they limited shards I don't see why you have a problem with it. 

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by bmcclure7

[bmcclure7]

8 hours ago, Elder said:

1.  I wasn’t aware of any indication that Nalthis wasn’t a world of Adonalsium.  As far as I was aware, Scadrial was the only one.  By creator, I meant creator of worlds if I wasn’t clear.  As far as I know, it took two shards to make one world.  Two to create one sentient life form on that world.

2.  If the Shard limits itself due to intent, then the Shard isn’t omnipotent. 
Are you sure it was Tanavast who had a problem with Fortune?  Or Honor?  when he confessed that Cultivation was better at it than he was, he didn’t call her Koravellium.  Either way, he was expressly not omniscient.  Cultivation admitted to not knowing things, making her by definition not omniscient.

3.  I would point to John Fry’s atheism as a refutation of this. 
 

in the Cosmere:  Era 1 Kelsier.  Obviously doesn’t believe in the god placed before him.  Through no small amount of deception, he puts himself up as an alternative god.  Upon death, the first thing he does is punch Preservation in the face, and gets front row seats to just how not omnipotent Leras has become.  Even in era two, bring much more Cosmere aware, he’s a friend to Sazed, not a worshipper by any stretch of the imagination.

By this point I’d say Jasnah believes in a similar sort of atheism, and Kaladin is agnostic.

The Shards are just shy of perfect, clearly not omniscient or omnipotent.  They’re powerful enough to be worshipped as gods, but not enough to really be God, despite what they may think of themselves.

Getting back on track.

Harmony isn’t widely worshipped on Scadrial.  Kelsier is worshipped on two continents under different names, for all he cares.  Nor is Harmony’s power dependent on worship.  I can’t say anything has changed in that regard.  Might change in the future though.  Discord is supposed to be the beloved god.

 

 

 

 

1.hoa states pretty clearly that the reason for there inability was there intent not lake of power.

2. RoW harmony clear states that the power of a shard is infinite so have two of them would given much of a advantage. So lack of power should keep a shard from being able to make a planet.

 

3.Wrong you can have limited omnipotents otherwise the Yhwy would not be considered omnipotent.  So long as the limiter isn't lake of power, then it works.

4. If John Fry’s is as you described then he is not a atheist, at least not a modern atheist, perhaps he is using the original classical meaning, or simply using the word wrong.

5.Jasnah is not atheist in the way we use the term. Perhaps she could be considered a cosmere equivalent.

6. So what? Agnostic is not an atheist 

7.  Well kel very much believed in the Lord ruler.  Why else would you try to kill something you don't believe exist?

8. Kel was also ingnorate at the time, so that just goes back to my original statement. 

9. Also not believe in × god doesn't make you atheist.  

10.  Punching god  in the face is not make you an atheist. 

11.  Being disrespectful, or Disobedient,  to God  Does not make you an atheist. 

12.  Being God's friend doesn't not mean you do not worship him. 

13.  Not worship of God doesn't not make you atheist.  

14. Kel is not an atheist 

15. Even if leras is impotent that means nothing. There are plenty of religions were gods are not all power. The fact the you assume that someone would see that and become an atheist show that must be only familiar with abrahamic religions. 

Not all religious come from Judaism.  Not all religious expect there Gods to be good, wise or all powerful.  

16. Repeat Kel is not an atheist. He literally punch his creator in the face.  How could he do that yet doubt preservations existence?

a·the·ist

/ˈāTHēəst/

Learn to pronounce

 

noun

1. a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

   "he is a committed atheist"

 

As for his religion, we know he believes himself a god from his words to the southerners like the RL before him, hes a survivalist 

Own the original topic. 

I wonder how the sliverist  will react to all the sightings of marsh?

 I suspect that what's the war of the shards start Harmony will receive more influence. 

Edited February 5, 2023 by bmcclure7

[alder24]

7 hours ago, Elder said:

The Shards are just shy of perfect, clearly not omniscient or omnipotent.  They’re powerful enough to be worshipped as gods, but not enough to really be God, despite what they may think of themselves

Not every god needs to be omniscient or omnipotent. Polytheism of ancient times is great a example of it. Nobody would say that Zeus is omniscient or omnipotent, many others aren't even omnipresent. 

[Elder]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Not every god needs to be omniscient or omnipotent. Polytheism of ancient times is great an example of it. Nobody would say that Zeus is omniscient or omnipotent, many others aren't even omnipresent. 

True, but such gods can be quite safely ignored or rejected.  Especially in the Cosmere.  It is quite acceptable even to some of the shards to look at them, consider them unworthy of worship, less than godly, and move on.  Granted, Harmony is new.  I can’t find any particular reference to anyone worshipping or even knowing about Endowment on Nalthis, (that may be due to the unselfish intent of her shard).  While I can’t speak for the ones we haven’t seen, The ones who reign by fear might take issue with it.  
 

I suppose @bmcclure7 that is where we differ on the definition of Atheism.  For me, Faith in or belief in God is more than mere acknowledgment of his existence.  When my wife says she believes in me, she’s not acknowledging my existence.  In a fantasy world like the Cosmere, where physical evidence of the Shards is there to be found, such acknowledgement is just as meaningless.  It would require a belief that such gods are worthy of worship and devotion as gods.  That these gods are worth believing in.  That remains a personal choice, in both this world and the Cosmere.  In my estimation, most if not all Shards in the Cosmere are not.

In regards to your definition of Omnipotence, as I understand it, you see it as infinite power.  I’ve been defining it as limitless power.  I can acknowledge yours as being valid, but I don’t have to agree with it.  Nothing in religion has just one definition.  I would suggest that there’s one more definition of omnipotence that I think we could agree on: supreme power.  None of the Shards have quite established that, though a couple seem to be trying.  Their failures seem to be telling.  

One more indicator that the Shards aren’t omniscient:  you can’t lie to a an Omniscient being.  You can’t hide things.  You can’t fool them.  Mortals have been doing that a lot in these books.  Lack of lack of Omniscience is a bigger disqualification for me.  I’d be even more bothered by an omnipotent being who doesn’t have commensurate knowledge and wisdom than an omniscient being with less power.

and of course there’s omnipresence, which we haven’t bothered discussing.  None of the Shards are.

Jasnah is exactly the sort of Atheist I’d expect in the Cosmere.  In regards to Kelsier, I’d argue that many RL atheists would say they believe in themselves instead of God.  That would describe Kelsier quite well.  Especially in everything he’s done.

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Elder

[bmcclure7]

18 minutes ago, Elder said:

True, but such gods can be quite safely ignored or rejected.  Especially in the Cosmere.  It is quite acceptable even to some of the shards to look at them, consider them unworthy of worship, less than godly, and move on.  Granted, Harmony is new.  I can’t find any particular reference to anyone worshipping or even knowing about Endowment on Nalthis, (that may be due to the unselfish intent of her shard).  While I can’t speak for the ones we haven’t seen, The ones who reign by fear might take issue with it.  
 

I suppose @bmcclure7 that is where we differ on the definition of Atheism.  For me, Faith in or belief in God is more than mere acknowledgment of his existence.  When my wife says she believes in me, she’s not acknowledging my existence.  In a fantasy world like the Cosmere, where physical evidence of the Shards is there to be found, such acknowledgement is just as meaningless.  It would require a belief that such gods are worthy of worship and devotion as gods.  That these gods are worth believing in.  That remains a personal choice, in both this world and the Cosmere.  In my estimation, most if not all Shards in the Cosmere are not.

In regards to your definition of Omnipotence, as I understand it, you see it as infinite power.  I’ve been defining it as limitless power.  I can acknowledge yours as being valid, but I don’t have to agree with it.  Nothing in religion has just one definition.  I would suggest that there’s one more definition of omnipotence that I think we could agree on: supreme power.  None of the Shards have quite established that, though a couple seem to be trying.  Their failures seem to be telling.  

One more indicator that the Shards aren’t omniscient:  you can’t lie to a an Omniscient being.  You can’t hide things.  You can’t fool them.  Mortals have been doing that a lot in these books.  Lack of lack of Omniscience is a bigger disqualification for me.  I’d be even more bothered by an omnipotent being who doesn’t have commensurate knowledge and wisdom than an omniscient being with less power.

and of course there’s omnipresence, which we haven’t bothered discussing.  None of the Shards are.

Jasnah is exactly the sort of Atheist I’d expect in the Cosmere.  In regards to Kelsier, I’d argue that many RL atheists would say they believe in themselves instead of God.  That would describe Kelsier quite well.  Especially in everything he’s done.

1.  I  See what you mean, I think that's what I would call faith in God As opposed to merely believing in God.

 

2.  I've always considered sovereignty as a separate issue from omniscience. That does change the perspective a bit I suppose.

3. I agree Jasna is the type of atheist I'd expect in the cosmere.

4. I see what you mean however I would disagree this is not quite the same thing. When an atheist says that they believe in themselves It's a statement merely of arrogance And self confidence, and self reliance.

 

And while  I would say that kelsier  Has all 3 of these,  However I would argue that his words To the southerners betray that  These things are not why he considers himself a God. 

 

His words to them seem to indicate that he considers himself a God for the same reason that the Lord ruler considered himself a God his connection to preservation. His reasoning comes from more than just arrogance ( Though that too)  But also wrapped in a theological framework. 

 

I would think that by that mindset he probably views harmony as a God as well. 

[Elder]

I’d say Sliverists don’t lack for validation of their God’s existence.  Everyone believes in iron eyes.  People simply take issue as to whether he should be revered.

I’d still point to the prophecy regarding Harmony’s influence expanding:

Spoiler

“He shall defend their ways, yet shall violate them. He will be their savior, yet they shall call him heretic. His name shall be Discord, yet they shall love him for it.”

The Final Empire Ch8 Epigraph

Harmony isn’t exactly beloved.  He takes such a hands off approach that most revere Kelsier over Harmony.

If he becomes less harmonious, apparently he’ll be more beloved.  

 

 

[Frustration]

6 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Of course not but what's that have to do with it? I already state that shards are limited by vessels. 

The vessel while fused with a god, he was once human. A human mind even a the superhuman mind of a vessel can not comprehend infinite possible future.  That why they act limiters to shards. The power of infinite god melded with flawed humanity.  

As for intent with have seen already that they limited shards I don't see why you have a problem with it. 

My problem is that all evidence points to shards not being omnipotent, but anytime that's brought up you just come up with some explanation that isn't supported by the evidence.

They can die, they only have access to a limited amount of Investiture, they cannot see the future with perfection, and so much more. This is true of the shards themselves.

 

If you want an Abrahamic God in the Cosmere, look to the God Beyond

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Not every god needs to be omniscient or omnipotent. Polytheism of ancient times is great a example of it. Nobody would say that Zeus is omniscient or omnipotent, many others aren't even omnipresent. 

That's not the discussion though, @bmcclure7 is claiming that Shards are omnipotent

[Elder]

Actually, my grasp of Sliverism is weak here.   Do they worship Rashek?  Or Marsh?  Obviously they don’t use either of those names.  The irony that Ironeyes is associated with the religion he specifically set out to destroy.

[bmcclure7]

39 minutes ago, Frustration said:

My problem is that all evidence points to shards not being omnipotent, but anytime that's brought up you just come up with some explanation that isn't supported by the evidence.

They can die, they only have access to a limited amount of Investiture, they cannot see the future with perfection, and so much more. This is true of the shards themselves.

 

If you want an Abrahamic God in the Cosmere, look to the God Beyond

That's not the discussion though, @bmcclure7 is claiming that Shards are omnipotent

 We literally have a  Harmony telling us that a shard has infinite power.  What do you mean they're not omnipotent?  Name something they  Don't have the power to do?

1.  No they can't die for already explained that's the vessel. Preservation and ruin were not destroyed when Ati  And leras died.

 

2.  Read rhythm of war harmony says they have access to infinite investiture. Brandon Sanderson has said himself that The universe will be completely destroyed long before the shard run out of investure.  And that's after creating the universe. That sounds pretty infinite to me.

 You're the one ignoring the evidence not me. 

 

 

3.  Actually I think that not the God beyond but, Adualsium is  The closest thing to an Abraham a God in the cosmere.

 

 

[Elder]

Both Adonalsium and the God Beyond need more explanation before I comment on whether they correspond very well to the Abrahamic God.  Both seem to be monotheistic, but that’s all I got.

Adonalsium is credited as the Creator of the Cosmere.  God beyond seems to be the one who has an all-encompassing plan for the Cosmere.

I’m also not entirely sure where the concept of the God Beyond came from.  Is this Dalinar’s faith that if Honor wasn’t truly God then there must be someone somewhere who is?  Could the people of Threnody have a similar faith sustaining them through the fallout of Ambition’s death?  Is it a shared speculative faith by those who feel there must be something better than the Shards?

 

 

[cometaryorbit]

Shards are not omnipotent.  Even if they have an infinite amount of Investiture (WoBs are possibly inconsistent on this*) they have very definite limitations even beyond their Intent - being opposed by another Shard, and needing Connection to act on some things even if unopposed.

*The fact that a finite amount of atium was key to the balance between Preservation and Ruin IMO confirms that they're not truly mathematically infinite. Subtracting a finite quantity from infinity doesn't change it.

1 hour ago, Elder said:

I’m also not entirely sure where the concept of the God Beyond came from.  Is this Dalinar’s faith that if Honor wasn’t truly God then there must be someone somewhere who is?  Could the people of Threnody have a similar faith sustaining them through the fallout of Ambition’s death?  Is it a shared speculative faith by those who feel there must be something better than the Shards?

It might be a simple extrapolation - Adonalsium wasn't truly omnipotent or infinite either, because he was killed. If you've already accepted that the Shards come from Adonalsium, another level of being seems a fairly natural idea. And it seems that this has been connected with the idea of the "Beyond" as where souls go after the Cognitive Realm.

Now, people we've seen mention the God Beyond aren't that cosmere aware, but that could be the original source of the idea. Or it might just be philosophical thought about a more perfect divinity, the same way some of the Greek philosophers felt about the very finite & flawed Olympians and suggested a higher level of being (the Stoics' pantheistic Divine Mind or Plato's Form of the Good for example).

Edited February 5, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Elder]

12 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Shards are not omnipotent.  Even if they have an infinite amount of Investiture (WoBs are possibly inconsistent on this*) they have very definite limitations even beyond their Intent - being opposed by another Shard, and needing Connection to act on some things even if unopposed.

*The fact that a finite amount of atium was key to the balance between Preservation and Ruin IMO confirms that they're not truly mathematically infinite. Subtracting a finite quantity from infinity doesn't change it.

It might be a simple extrapolation - Adonalsium wasn't truly omnipotent or infinite either, because he was killed. If you've already accepted that the Shards come from Adonalsium, another level of being seems a fairly natural idea. And it seems that this has been connected with the idea of the "Beyond" as where souls go after the Cognitive Realm.

Now, people we've seen mention the God Beyond aren't that cosmere aware, but that could be the original source of the idea. Or it might just be philosophical thought about a more perfect divinity, the same way some of the Greek philosophers felt about the very finite & flawed Olympians and suggested a higher level of being (the Stoics' pantheistic Divine Mind or Plato's Form of the Good for example).

Worth pointing out, Atium was a renewable resource, if only an extremely slowly renewed resource.  After being expended,   It reformed in geodes at the Pits of Hathsin. Even when Kelsier broke the pits, it was noted that this would set back Atium production by centuries, not destroy it forever.  Sazed’s ascension did that.  Same deal with Preservation’s power.  It could be used and exhausted, but over the centuries it would be renewed at Ati’s prison.  I suppose that’s the purpose of Perpendicularities:  to recover power after it’s been expended.  

[Frustration]

3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 We literally have a  Harmony telling us that a shard has infinite power.  What do you mean they're not omnipotent?  Name something they  Don't have the power to do?

There is a finite amount of Investiture.

Spoiler

chasmfriend's son

Is there a finite amount of Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

chasmfriend's son

So is Nightblood consuming it?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Very, very slowly.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/96/#e3188

 

 

 

 

Therefore shards do not have infinite power.

3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

1.  No they can't die for already explained that's the vessel. Preservation and ruin were not destroyed when Ati  And leras died

Honor, Ambition, Devotion, and Dominion are all dead.

3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

.  Actually I think that not the God beyond but, Adualsium is  The closest thing to an Abraham a God in the cosmere.

Brandon says otherwise

Spoiler

Questioner

In Stormlight, Dalinar mentioned that <if he can die, he's no longer a god>, so to speak. And throughout the cosmere, gods died *inaudible*. Is there an omniscient, omnipotent, actual God in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Is there an omniscient, omnipotent God in the cosmere? Some people believe that there is. You guys laugh about this, but I don't mean it to be a laughing thing. There are certain questions I will not answer in the cosmere, specifically because it would too much undermine some of the characters' beliefs. And I want to treat characters respectfully. So whether there is life after you pass into the Beyond, and whether there is a God of gods, an omnipotent, as we would define "monotheistic God," are questions that I don't answer, and I let the characters deal with. Because if I answer that, then the character discussions about this are meaningless. Not really, but they kind of are. So there are a couple things I won't answer about the cosmere, because the characters don't have these answers.

Questioner

<Do you know the answer>?

Brandon Sanderson

I know the answer, yes.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e1733

 

 

 

 

 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Honor, Ambition, Devotion, and Dominion are all dead.

Not dead, Splintered. The power is still there. Investiture, like energy, can't be destroyed. Vessels are dead.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Not dead, Splintered. The power is still there. Investiture, like energy, can't be destroyed. Vessels are dead.

When you die your body will still be there.

Doesn't change the fact that you're dead.

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

When you die your body will still be there.

Doesn't change the fact that you're dead.

Tell that to Kelsier.

[+Oltux72]

12 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Of course not but what's that have to do with it? I already state that shards are limited by vessels. 

Because they are also limited by laws of nature. Apparently there are limits in observing the future of an uncooperative entity which is also observing the future.
And Shards are affected by it. This being the same issue users of atium and electrum have when meeting and

(Roshar)

Spoiler

can be seen in the case of Renarin Kholin

we need to assume that it is independent of the vessel.

Now, I personally would not say that this precludes being a deity, but the distinction is real.