What Might Taln Do In WOR? [Speculations]

[Guest Alaxel]

I did a rough search through the forums and didn't really find any topic devoted to this particular problem.

Let me start by saying that Taln reappearing just might be the most significant thing that happened in Way of Kings.

Okay, so Taln has a couple courses of action available to him, I'll outline a few.

First, his mind is broken by all the torture he's been subjected. He might then proceed to act erratically, irrationally, and unpredictably. There's not much to speculate about if this is the case.

Second, he returned with a deep, abiding hatred of the other Heralds and has resolved to find and kill them all. I think that would be a pretty reasonable reaction to being betrayed the way he had been. In fact, he just might be the victim of the worst betrayal in all the Cosmere. So let's say he does decide to make finding and killing Heralds his sole objective. It might not hurt Roshar in its struggle against Odium, depending on just what the other Heralds are doing, but it almost certainly won't help anything.

Third, he may just abandon the Oathpact as well. That could be absolutely DEVASTATING to Roshar. Taln being stuck bearing the whole of the Oathpact by himself all these years just might be the only reason Roshar hasn't already been destroyed. If Taln abandons the Oathpact now, which is likely a tempting prospect for him, it could mean that there would be no way to survive the True Desolation. Let's hope he doesn't do that.

Fourth, Taln as described as being prone to attach himself to hopeless causes and turn the tides, even if he dies in the process. So he might help restore the Radiants and provide critical information about how to survive the coming Desolation as well as shed some light on the Oathpact. I think a lot of us take it for granted that this is what Taln intends to do. I think that's a hasty assumption to make. And even if this his iintention, there are a few ways he could go about it. He could help restore the Knights Radiant and try and convince the Heralds return to the Oathpact. He could help restore the Knights Radiant and denounce, maybe even fight against, the Heralds. Maybe he knows how new people can take the place of the old Heralds and become new Heralds. He has no shortage of ways to react to the world here.

Fifth, maybe he's Odium's Champion now. Millennia of torture can do that to a guy.

Anyway, I'm curious to hear other peoples thoughts on the subject.

[marianmi]

1) not likely, he's been through that torture multiple times

 

2) why would he hate the other heralds? they broke, he didn't... with the others in damnation or without, he would have suffered the same... contrary, he might want to convince them to come back in the oathpact, if possible, or help humanity in the coming war. e.g. Nalan/Darkness would be convinced now that his efforts were futile, and will start training the surgebinders instead of killing them...

 

3) why would he do that? even if he would not want to go back, he would abandon it after the fighting... I don't think he has it in him to abandon a fight, this is contrary to all we know about him - that is, looking for where the fighting is more intense...

 

4) if he dies, the oathpact still stands...

 

5) this would not explain his words at the end of the book. and  he would not go the the kholin place, he would go to one of odium's places...

[Guest Alaxel]

I agree with your 5th speculation especially. I mostly just through that out there to stir the pot.

Anyway, he exclaims that he's failed. What has he failed? Maintaining the Oathpact? If so, that's bad. Perhaps Odium offered to let him leave Damnation at any time, if he would just abandon the Oathpact. Maybe he finally broke, and that's his failure. Just because he survived centuries of torture doesn't mean he could keep it up indefinitely. I know from personal experience that with comrades you love and trust, mutual suffering is something that you help each other overcome. But to do it alone...that's a much different story.

[marianmi]

There are lots of things unclear in the epilogue....

 

1) Wit saying: "Welcome, lost one" 

2) Talenel saying: "And I have failed" 

3) Wit: "I fear you might be too late, my confused, unfortunate friend"

 

Why lost? What did Talenel failed to do? Why does Wit say he's too late? too late for what? Since radiants appear when a desolation starts, why is then Talenel too late? Why does Wit say Talenel is confused?

 

My impression is that Talenel thinks Almighty died because of him... or he's confused about Almighty being dead... something along this lines...

[Gloom]

I believe that Talenel will do his duty. He will attempt to prepare those he can to face the final desolation. If in the process he comes across the other Heralds he may take action against them, try to reason with them, or pity them. It really depends on Talns character. We know almost nothing about him.

 

I do believe that Taln will be the one that stops Darkness. Whether this means he kills him, or not I'm not sure, but it seems reasonable to me that he is the most capable of putting an end to his butchery.

[Argent]

I am in Team Taln's camp. I haven't the slightest why he thinks he is late (and that should terrify me), but his mannerism in the epilogue suggests that he hasn't gone bad. Broken though, that's a different issue... At least we'll get an interlude of his, that should help clear things up. Somewhat. 'cause you know, Szeth's interludes explain so much...

 

This had me thinking though. One of the epigraphs reads approximately "the burdens of nine become mine." Damnation must have a very interesting torture mechanisms, if the absence of the other Heralds somehow amplifies Taln's pain. If that's what this is referring to.

[Fistsofrage]

I think that Taln's presence is evidence that darkness dude's attempts to prevent the final desolation have failed.

I don't really see Taln playing a huge role in WOR, like helping Kaladin because it seems to be too early in the series for our MCs to be getting easy answers. Their struggles to find the truth is our entertainment, and as badass as it would be for Kaladin to learn from the last honorable and legitimate Herald, it seems too much too soon.

[hoser]

I believe that there is WoB  that there is more to the prelude than we see. 

 

In a horrible desolation, the survival of 9 heralds is suspicious. 

• Did Odium make his minions let the heralds survive? 
• Did Taln volunteer to suffer without some others? 
• Did Odium or Honor communicate with Jezrien? 

I can only guess, but if Taln understood more than Kalak, it could affect his reaction. 

 

When he says that he has failed, it follows his announcement that the desolation has come.  The obvious thought is that if he hadn't failed, the desolation wouldn't be here.  His phrasing says "and I have failed," which could indicate that he had another purpose entirely, as the "and" would otherwise be superfluous. 

 

It seems that he is still fighting Odium and the Desolation, or he wouldn't have warned the guards of the impending disaster, so the only outcomes I can envision are some combination of the first and the fourth options of the OP. 

 

The only meaning I can discern for the tardiness is that there isn't enough time to defeat the Desolation, but there could be some other, more specific understanding of Wit's. 

[marianmi]

I understand Wit's tardiness and confusion remarks as "you're too late, Tanavast is already dead..., you're confused if you think you're a Herald of the Almighty, since the Almighty is dead... you're unfortunate because things have already played out, and you're alone in this, the others have abandoned you"...

[Guest Alaxel]

@marianmi, I like your explanation of Wit's remarks. They're certainly plausible and it raises an interesting question. Does Taln even know that the Almighty is dead? How Cosmere aware are the Heralds? Do they understand that the Almighty was Honor, a Shard of Adonalsium?

I wish I knew more about Hoids end game. Is he optimistic or is he having secret panic attacks like, "Shards are being splintered left and right. The Cosmere is doomed, why do I even try?"

[Scott]

I'd assume the Heralds are pretty aware of who Tanavast and what Honor was.  They were his champions, and they suffered horrifying torture for millennia.  They wouldn't have done so without a compelling reason, and what more compelling a reason is "God said do this".

[Ethrien]

@Scott Sure they were aware of him as 'The Almighty', but the question was how aware are the Heralds of Adonalsium and the related concepts? Did they know that their 'God' was once a person called Tanavast who took up the Shard of Honor? Were they aware of the existence of the sixteen Shards or just the three Gods of Roshar? Did they feel they needed to know these things or was the fact that 'God said do this' enough for Honor to gain their cooperation?

 

There is information in the book to indicate Roshar as being Cosmere aware. They've knowledge of the Cognitive Realm, they use the phrase 'Cosmere', and one of the Death Rattles specifically mention 3 of the 16 as having ruled (though where that information comes from...). Still we've not got much to make calls on about the Heralds actual knowledge, I know I'd have trouble calling myself 'Herald of the Almighty' knowing that there were 15 other beings of near equal power at work in the universe, some with their own planets and people.

[The Count]

Well, initially I think he will have trouble doing anything much..

 

From the guards perspective, he is a darkeyes with a shardblade who just attacked Kholinar (albeit very briefly).

 

Since his blade did not dissappear, I imagine it will be taken from him and he will be dissmissed as a crazy darkeyes and thown in a dungeon until they figure out what to do This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules him.

 

It reamins to be seen what game Wit / Hoid is playing here but I doubt the Queen will have much time for him to influence how to treat a mad man of low birth (at least as she will see it).

Edited November 6, 2013 by MadRand

[Gloom]

I don't think so. Honorblades are a type of Shardblade. You can't just take them away from the person they are bonded to. A Shardblade has to be willed to another if it is bonded (as Dalinar did when he thrust his Shardblade into the ground) or it's holder has to die for possession of the blade to transfer. So unless Taln is executed before he wakes up, it's unlikely that they will be able to take his Blade.

[The Count]

Maybe separated from it would have been better wording.

 

If they are both in the physical realm, I see no barrier to placing him in a separate room from his blade. Maybe Taln can still summon his blade, wherever he is... but maybe not.

 

We have no current knowledge on weather Honorblades behave like Shardblades in this respect.

[Ethrien]

Its probably safe to assume Hoid can manipulate the darkeyed guards into getting what he wants, he is a lighteyes on the scene, they may eventually seek/inform their actual superiors but I think Hoid can keep them dancing long enough to see Taln to safety. Remember Kaladin asked to be put outside the chain of command in tWoK for exactly this reason, so he didn't have to follow orders of any lighteyes. Our Worldhopper hasn't gone to all this effort to be stumped by a couple of tired eyed city guards working a merchants gate.

 

Lastly even if they did get Taln in a cell and separate from his blade, he is still a Herald and quite likely a powerful Surgebinder, I doubt the Alethi keep their dungeons Stormlight free every hour of the day.

 

EDIT: Just reread that scene, and one guard was already gone before Taln collapsed, so backup might not be that far off.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Ethrien

[Argent]

I imagine the Heralds are pretty aware. When Kaladin rides the storm, Jezrien (presumably) shows that he knows who Honor is - in both senses of the word.

[dyring]

I´v always been inclined to believe the heralds actually followed all the way from Yolen to begin with. Or at the very least, followed from "tranquelin halls"(wich I am uncertain on if I think is Yolen or another planet in Roshar´s system(or if Yolen _is_ another planet in Roshar´s system;) but thats prolly unlikely.

 

So they propably know a fair bunch. And at the very least, they knew that the "almighty" was rivaled by his enemy, the one who supported those driving them from the tranquelin halls

 

(ooc - how is tranq halls spelled again?

[Ethrien]

Tranquiline Halls

 

Hmm good point, I know Brandon RAFO'd a question about whether the Heralds started on Roshar, if they came all the way from Yolen they would possibly know about the Shards (though no guarantee). Regardless of where, if they did come from another planet you would hope they'd be aware enough to know of other worlds.

 

Also on the rivaled in strength by enemy point. I personally wouldn't consider that strong grounds to abandon the name 'Almighty' for my God, my God is still the creator of mankind. Well except for the mankind created by those two Shards on Scadrial and the two on Sel and that one on Nalthis etc. That sort of thing would be what starts me questioning The Almighty-On-This-Planet-But-Not-Necessarily-Others. Of course what I'd call Honor if he was my God doesn't really effect how the Heralds want to call him.

[WeiryWriter]

or if Yolen _is_ another planet in Roshar´s system

 

Just so you know, Yolen and Roshar are not in the same solar system.  The Greater Roshar system has three planets Roshar (obviously), Braize (where Odium is currently  hanging), and Ashyn (which has its own Shard and is the setting for The Silence Divine).

[Gloom]

I never knew Ashyns name, or that it had a Shard of its own, or that this was to be the location of The Silence Divine.

[marianmi]

Just so you know, Yolen and Roshar are not in the same solar system.  The Greater Roshar system has three planets Roshar (obviously), Braize (where Odium is currently  hanging), and Ashyn (which has its own Shard and is the setting for The Silence Divine).

 

Wait, what? Where is this coming from?

I thought BS said Odium is on Roshar, and pretty invested...

[hoser]

Wait, what? Where is this coming from?

I thought BS said Odium is on Roshar, and pretty invested...

Here, although I believe Odium is somewhat invested in Roshar also. 

Edited November 6, 2013 by hoser

[WeiryWriter]

Here, although I believe Odium is somewhat invested in Roshar also. 

 

Correct Odium is invested in Roshar but it isn't his "home-base."

[marianmi]

Thanks, hoser.

 

 

There are 2 Shards on Roshar, however Honor is dead.

 

 

Am I the only one to interpret this as we actually have another shard besides Honor an Cultivation? That is still alive?

 

Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns

 

What if this is *before* Odium came? If Brayse is his home-base, he never technically "ruled" on Roshar.

 

Yesterday I advanced a theory that the 4 corners of the KR chart belong to 4 types of spren: windrunners have honorspren, edgedancers have cultivationspren, lightweavers have cryptics, and stonewardens have another 100% spren. Cryptics and the stonewardens spren are 100% Ado-spren and the unamed shard, respectively. These are the 4 "pillars", the other orders have "mixed" spren.

Edited November 6, 2013 by marianmi