Ethrien

Does anyone know if the exact subject line "words of radiance orders" is important? The post on Brandons website didn't mention a specific subject line so I went with "Brandon sanderson - words of radiance"

Sorry if this seems a little rude guys, but some people in the Stormlight Archive Forums haven't read all the books in that Other Series. I'm four books in, and don't know if what your talking about is major or not but I'd still rather not stumble upon it here.

Its a cool idea, but I've got some of the same issues as others, regarding tables not quite lining up. My main issue is with the Surgebinding table (Raw Version, Recent Update). In it we get a nice line up between Orders of Radiants and the Heralds in the border. What we don't get is a nice line up between Surges, and Heralds. We can make Jezriens Surge the left most of the two at the top or the top most of those at the far left, neither looks more correct than the other to me. How I'd approach it is to take the extra aspects from the supporting Heralds/Orders instead of Surges. So Windrunners would take both Protecting/Leading from Jezrien, their Herald; then one of Pious/Guiding from Ishar and one of Just/Confident from Nalan, the two supporting Heralds. Which leaves us with four possible combinations depending on how you want to choose the bonus attributes. 1. Protecting/Leading/Guiding/Confident; Using only the secondary attributes. 2. Protecting/Leading/Guiding/Just; My favorite for reasons given below. 3. Protecting/Leading/Pious/Confident 4. Protecting/Leading/Pious/Just I'm split between having each Order keep their primary attribute as something special to them and a pet theory I've had for a while that each secondary attribute is a lesser form of the next Order's primary. A societies Leader decides Justice for their subjects; a Confident person is ofttimes Brave; Obedience is a small part of Love, people who practice Healing need to be Learned in medicine; Giving is easy if you can Create what you give; Honest people aren't Wise but they'll still often tell you what you need to hear; a Guide Protects us by keeping us on the safe path. It's not a particularly strong theory, some of the justification above are kinda weak and I completely left out Careful-Resolute; Builder-Dependable; Resourceful-Pious; because I couldn't come up with good justifications. However I like the way it fits into this.

We've WoB that Feruchemical gold can heal Shardblade cuts, so its safe to say its not cutting the cognitive aspect. Also that cognitive healing like Feruchemical gold can heal spiritual wounds, or at least reattach two spiritual pieces separated by a Shardblade. I've just developed a strange hope, that this is the sort of thing Bridge Four covers in their 'experiments'. "Airsick lowlander, you don't need ten toes, and this will give us good information. It is important to know your limits."

I'm guessing 'PM = Prime Minister' And I'm not sure about the "there is always a Prime" justification for a PM, I read it as the more mystical version i.e. The moment the Old Prime dies, the replacement is immediately chosen by Yaezir, it just takes some time for the humans to catch up. I'd definitely say your first possibility is the more likely, that there was an obvious replacement, an Arbiter who was already instrumental to the government. The old prime dies, the week application period passes, the Arbiters spend a night reading all the last minute entries from "those fools in the gardens" as a formality, then hand it over to the man they all know deserves it. Szeth cuts his head off the next night, and two Primes have died within a week (give or take a day).

I don't see that as a separate point to number 1. While I'll freely admit to not having a lot of personal experience with torture, its use in fiction is often to get the confession you want out of the person you've decided is guilty. He heard the truth, and decided to keep applying thumb screws and hot pokers until he found a 'truth' more to his liking.

My thoughts were that since the body is using stormlight like it would use air, it would store it like air. Contain it in the lungs and filter it into the blood as needed.There is plenty of lines of description in the book comparing stormlight to blood or as being power injected into veins, however it is all similes, not really great evidence to build upon. You also make some very good points, even if stormlight is replacing the chemical reactions there is no need for it to be stored in the lungs to do so. The reason stormlight comes out Kaladin's mouth could well be because its the biggest hole in the container. The same logic could be extended to the eyes, they're holes in the skin where stormlight might escape faster and therefore would be more concentrated. @paperclip we've got WoB that when magic systems get very similar they tend to function in similar ways. So we know that Stormlight healing and ReGrowth will each probably function on the same base principle as one of the two, just don't know which.

I don't know about them holding back information, I'm assuming interrogation = torture is a fair substitute to make and I don't see the rank and file of a priesthood holding up to torture indefinitely. The way I see it "there was no visions" can be one of two things 1. What Sunmaker wanted to hear. 2. The Truth (which is still what he wanted to hear) Sunmaker needed them to confess to at least that much. It wouldn't really do for him to slaughter and torture the representatives of God on Roshar; then turn around to his people with "Hey guys, my bad. Turns out those guys really were holy. Who'd have thought it, now I'll just get back to ruling all of you I've dammed for eternity for following my orders." Edit: Just occurred to me that this doesn't really rule out 'Dark God', the priests give up the 'fabrication' line, Sunmaker gets what he whats and the priests keep their secrets.

The breath part makes a fair amount of sense, blood is infused with oxygen, and emptied of carbon dioxide as it passes through the lungs. If instead of oxygen your blood is being infused with stormlight to power your muscles, then your also not undergoing the chemical reactions that use the oxygen and produce the carbon, meaning you wouldn't need to breath. A quick trip to Wikipedia tells me eye color is decided in your stroma by two major factors, Melanin and blood vessels. Melanin is the pigment used in the human iris and is what gives us brown eyes, all other eye colors are decided by a lack of melanin. In people with less pigment in their eyes, Rayleigh* scattering (which is why the sky is blue) in their hemoglobin and blood vessels, becomes more important. People with blue eyes have very little melanin, people with green and hazel eyes have slightly more. Therefore having stormlight moving through the blood vessel in your iris could certainly explain a change in color. Though the radiant in Dalinar's vision is described as having unnaturally white but not glowing eyes, so it seems likely that using it does change the eye over time. I would suggest that stormlight slowly destroys pigment but that would just result in blue eyes thanks to scattering, so probably time to just sit back and leave the magic eyes be. *Also Tyndall and Mie scattering but to less effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iris_%28anatomy%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_color

Well if you think about it the majority of the assassinations weren't mentioned in tWoK. Around 24 names on the list and 6 countries left without leaders according to Kaladin. Of that we get three different countries and 9 confirmed targets in tWoK. The King of Jah Keved in Szeths interlude, the Emuli from Kaladin's Storm vision, and a Selay Gerontarch and 6 highprinces from Szeths summary of the list. I'd suggest its placement could have more to do with the importance of Darkness to the second book. If Lift's interlude had come in it's chronological place in tWoK's then Darkness would have been revealed as a much bigger player way too early. Plus for those people with Alcatraz's least favorite habit, who've started reading from the second book, it serves as a nice re-enforcing of 'this assassin in white guy is deadly'.

Aye, Shen was a bit of a surprise standout to me. I'm now really hoping he finds his 'music' in WoR. I wonder if there isn't something cognitive going on with the Parshmen. Everyone views them as property so it reenforces their view of themselves as property. Shen is given a name, possessions, and is thought of as a person by Bridge Four and so he begins to develop a view of himself as a person.

From Kaladin's new Steelhunt chapter:

Hmm your dead right, I think I started and finished that post in two different mind sets. 1. Darkness needs the crime to be unarguably a crime even with outside Royal opinion. i.e. If a King orders a soldier to go to another country and kill, it isn't a crime in the King's mind, it's an act of war. (which doesn't make it a war crime I'm not sure what I was thinking) 2. Darkness can only go off local laws, and can't use or be effected by other nations opinion on the crime or even true guilt. i.e. If I can get the paperwork filled, I can execute him here. My overall jumbled point was supposed to be that we don't know much about how Darkness defines he's 'justice'. However then I found that section in the Lift interlude about, 'subject yourself to their rules' and wrote my ending without changing my beginning. I still stand by the point that any deaths ordered by a King are not crimes in the King's territory, assuming their above the law. Though that certainly wouldn't protect Szeth if he was caught in any one of the places he's committed a crime.

Yes but a criminal offense under which law? I doubt Roshar has an international treaties on war crimes or that most of the countries consider Kings as subjects of their own laws. If the King of Kharbranth doesn't consider it a crime to send an Assassin against his enemies then that assassination wasn't a crime anywhere he makes the law. Whether this immunity extends to the Assassin while he is outside Kharbranth's territory is another matter. Remember Darkness's strange focus on paperwork, it's important to him and he seems to need paperwork specific to the country his target is in. There are so many questions that could be asked about Darkness's twisted sense of 'Justice'. Does he hold people to the law of the country they're currently in or all countries? When a King tries to pardon a person for crimes committed outside their territory does that stop Darkness? If it does, then does that protection end when the person leaves the King's territory? Does the person actually need to be guilty of the crime, or is it enough for them to be declared legally guilty based on false testimony? Who does he get to sign off on his paperwork, that they're willing to execute someone for theft? What if the local government has outlawed capital punishment, not likely on Roshar I know, but what if? I'm not saying this is the reason for him avoiding Szeth, I'm actually very much in favor of it being because Szeth isn't Spren Bonded. I'm just pointing out difficulties Darkness may have with going after people tied to high government positions. His not just seeking any legal justification for the deaths, he is quite insistent on staying within the laws and rule of whichever land he is currently within.

Very true and quite likely, however Darkness also seems to need legal justification for taking down his targets. Anyone like Lift, with contacts within a nation's leadership could very well be a tricky spot for him. Assassination on the orders of a nations ruler isn't really a criminal offense, just another part of war and politics. If you take it all the way back to Shinovar, Szeth's actions are a result of him following the orders and tenants given to him by the leaders of Stone Shamanism, if they represent the leaders of Shinovar then all of Szeth's actions have come about as a result of following his nations orders, just like any other soldier. Of course just because a crime was truly an act of war doesn't stop countries from putting out arrest warrants. And just because the King of Jah Keved pardons you for crimes commited in Alethkar doesn't mean your free to walk the streets of Kholinar without being arrested. We don't really know enough about how Darkness defines 'Justice', its possible Lift's pardon only protects her from crimes committed in Azish, and Darkness could still try to have her extradited to answer from crimes in other countries; not that he'd succeed while the current Prime lives.

Tranquiline Halls Hmm good point, I know Brandon RAFO'd a question about whether the Heralds started on Roshar, if they came all the way from Yolen they would possibly know about the Shards (though no guarantee). Regardless of where, if they did come from another planet you would hope they'd be aware enough to know of other worlds. Also on the rivaled in strength by enemy point. I personally wouldn't consider that strong grounds to abandon the name 'Almighty' for my God, my God is still the creator of mankind. Well except for the mankind created by those two Shards on Scadrial and the two on Sel and that one on Nalthis etc. That sort of thing would be what starts me questioning The Almighty-On-This-Planet-But-Not-Necessarily-Others. Of course what I'd call Honor if he was my God doesn't really effect how the Heralds want to call him.

Thanks for the link FireArcadia, went to check my copy after reading this and found the Gollancz edition (softcover) has the same sword (Windrunners) on every part. The third sword is almost definitely the third order (Dustbringers), its the only one to curve that way and there is a similar design at the center of the glyph and the swords pommel. The middle sword has a few possibility considering general shape, however it still best matches order two (Skybreakers) especially when you look at the design in the center of glyph and blade. Oh also the original poster did only refer to three distinct swords, even if it wasn't particularly clear.

Its probably safe to assume Hoid can manipulate the darkeyed guards into getting what he wants, he is a lighteyes on the scene, they may eventually seek/inform their actual superiors but I think Hoid can keep them dancing long enough to see Taln to safety. Remember Kaladin asked to be put outside the chain of command in tWoK for exactly this reason, so he didn't have to follow orders of any lighteyes. Our Worldhopper hasn't gone to all this effort to be stumped by a couple of tired eyed city guards working a merchants gate. Lastly even if they did get Taln in a cell and separate from his blade, he is still a Herald and quite likely a powerful Surgebinder, I doubt the Alethi keep their dungeons Stormlight free every hour of the day. EDIT: Just reread that scene, and one guard was already gone before Taln collapsed, so backup might not be that far off.

@Scott Sure they were aware of him as 'The Almighty', but the question was how aware are the Heralds of Adonalsium and the related concepts? Did they know that their 'God' was once a person called Tanavast who took up the Shard of Honor? Were they aware of the existence of the sixteen Shards or just the three Gods of Roshar? Did they feel they needed to know these things or was the fact that 'God said do this' enough for Honor to gain their cooperation? There is information in the book to indicate Roshar as being Cosmere aware. They've knowledge of the Cognitive Realm, they use the phrase 'Cosmere', and one of the Death Rattles specifically mention 3 of the 16 as having ruled (though where that information comes from...). Still we've not got much to make calls on about the Heralds actual knowledge, I know I'd have trouble calling myself 'Herald of the Almighty' knowing that there were 15 other beings of near equal power at work in the universe, some with their own planets and people.

Shadesmar is the cognitive realm not the spiritual. That said, if rocks, cups and people have cognitive aspects its probable Shardblades do too, though whether that is visible when they are stored is another matter. Shardblades bond on touch, it would be interesting if they could be bonded from contact with their cognitive form, but I'd guess it would still need to be an unowned Shardblade to work. I'm not sure if there is much information about how people can affect objects from within Shadesmar, other than Soulcasting. I'm willing to say that objects can't be picked up (i.e. teleported to hand) by contact with their cognitive forms at least not without some sort of intervening magic system. The descriptions we have of Shadesmar describe it as an ocean of spheres 'moving in an undulating swell', Shallan on her first trip flailed her arms while holding the goblets sphere but the sphere didn't move from her bedside table, and Jasnah made a raft from a group of spheres without any noticeable changes in the surrounding room. From these examples I'm willing to say that movement of the spheres doesn't affect their physical counterparts, at least not noticeably in the small scale events we've seen. Still not very much to go on yet, and since Shadesmar is used for Worldhopping there is definitely some physical translation when you work on a larger scale.

Shardlet I was pointing out that it was unlikely, given time restraints for the Prime death to come after Dalinars, I wasn't suggesting Szeth had already been to the Shattered Plains. He'd spent 'months' on the murders of the first list, and the distance from Kharbranth to the Shattered Plains and back to Azimir is massive, equal to the length of the continent. For the Primes death to occur within two months of the begining of the slaughter but after Dalinar, Szeth would have to be making a massive exageration when he says 'months' in his final chapter in tWoK.

1. Yes 3. No

I don't think this is that likely, we've got a decent time frame from both TWoK and Lift's Interlude. According to Szeth's last chapter in Way of Kings he'd spent 'months' committing these murders whilst the Vizier in Lift's Interlude has the time at two months. Assuming the Azish aren't completely out of the loop on information we can probably take this to be pretty accurate from the start of the slaughter. Even if Szeth is exaggerating and the Vizier rounding the time down, it makes the timeline ridiculously tight. Szeth would need to travel to and from the Shattered Plains and back to Azish more than halfway across the continent, in the time difference between an exaggerated 'months' and rounded down 'two months'. Also the quote gives a count of six monarchs, which could also be taken to mean before the death of the original 24ish, though since its unclear if they count Highprinces or other leaders it isn't particularly useful. Lastly we have evidence the Szeth has already been through Azish (in a geographic sense), Kaladin's Stormvision shows Szeth in Emul and from my understanding Selay is around the Purelake area, meaning he did travel through the area while working on the original list. Since he has already traveled that way it seems odd that the Primes wouldn't be on his original list, they were right in his path. Killing both the Primes seems to me like it would be part of the original list, it fits right into the "tear down to build anew" theme by undermining the Azish form of rule "What do we do when nobody wants to be Prime?"

Haha, yes and needs Dalinar's help in giving it a good scrub down and wash off. It's a 'fallen title' as in having fallen out of use among the Alethi since the last time they were united under one King a few hundred years ago. Edit: In response to original topic. If we assume that we are in fact missing 900 blades that leaves us with a lot to account for, far more than I'd be willing to attribute to those that have been lost to the wilderness by adventurous Shardbearers or have been hidden away by common people. In both of those cases the loss is likely temporary, the legend of lost Shards would draw treasure hunters for hundreds of years, and Shards in the hands of common people would eventually pass through inheritance to people looking for fortune and glory and as such rejoin the tally of Shards. The most likely solutions is that there are a large number of shards have been removed from the count by one or more organizations. The Radiants Regardless of whether they remained so after abandoning their Shards, the Knights in Dalinar's vision were still Surgebinders when they gave them up. It is a possibility that some abandoned their Shards were normal people couldn't reach, though the idea that the Stonewards and Windrunners being outliers in abandoning theirs at the foot of a human fort is a little odd. Its been suggested elsewhere on this forum that the Shards were the construction of a single Order the Bondsmiths, if so they may have also been one of the only groups with the knowledge to destroy blades, though again with the actions of the Stonewards/Windrunners its hard to think of the Radiants as actively trying to keep blades out of unworthy hands but its not an impossibility. The Heralds Are probably the only group outside the Radiants with the knowledge to destroy Shardblades, and the ability to judge a thousand Shards as something to be removed rather than a power to be harnessed. That said those that are commonly suspected to be Heralds, Darkness, Baxil's Mistress, the drunk at the beggars feast hardly portray them as the sort to be working in secret for the good of humanity. Darkness could be argued to be working for the greater good, however a man trying to put out his own house fire isn't the best example of an altruist. All in all its possible a Herald has been collecting Shards to send floating down the Anduin into the ocean; but I wouldn't consider it that likely with the information we've been given so far. Secret Societies The Ghostbloods, the Envisagers, Shin Stone Shamans, whatever Restares calls his faction, the world of Roshar has no shortage of secret societies that might be interested in collecting Shards. The major issue with this idea is the restraint it would require of these secret societies. If these organizations could amass even a few dozen shards that would give them the power needed to take a small country; with a hundred shards and allies among existing highprinces the whole of Roshar would become a tempting prize. While not all secret societies may be collecting Shards or think of using them for conflict, what we've seen of war-torn Roshar implies they would be in the minority. For an aggressive group to collect a large number of Shards and not use them, implies they don't believe they will win, either because they think there to be other groups with similar Shard counts or they don't actually posses more than a handful of shards, which while still an incomparable fortune, wouldn't be sufficient for conquest without an army. Hmm I started writing this quite in favor of the ideas of Radiants abandoning blades beyond the grasp of mortals, Heralds dumping them by the wagon load into oceans and secret societies with more shards than some countries fighting wars of attrition for control of Roshar. Now I don't like any of them, I'll admit they're all possible and some quite likely but I can't get behind the scale required. Even all together, it doesn't seem enough, unless they can be destroyed or broken then someone has been collecting them without planing to use them, someone who is probably very aware of the coming Desolation.

The use of 'He' to represent three people seems unlikely to me, there are plenty of ways it could be reworded to be ambiguous about the number of people. As it is one person is taking up one title is my opinion. 'He' refers to Dalinar and 'title' refers to the Highprince of War. Dalinar (tower) is making a bid for the title which will only work if he has Elhokar's (Crown) support and Kaladin's (Spear) protection, the three of them are key in seeing the 'fallen title' taken up again.