What Might Taln Do In WOR? [Speculations]

[Fistsofrage]

It seems incredibly unlikely to me that any of the Heralds would attack Taln.  If for no other reason than they abandoned him as much as they did the Oathpact.  They would have to have fallen very far before they'd attack him.  Why would you crap on the dude that just took your licking for the last 4500 years?

 

 

Pretty sure there's a trope where allies or heroes give up while the others continue on and when those heroes return they get ambushed by the others who are trying to hide their shame. Happened in a manga called Ubel Blatt and it's pretty amazing.

 

And then we have darkness dude trying to prevent the desolation in his own way, so it might be nothing personal and he just doesn't want Taln helping people make more spren-human bonds.

 

But yeah, it just seems a little strange to me that enduring thousands of years of torment would make him look like that. I figured he'd come out looking fine but his mental aspect would be skewed. If he was really fatigued, he'd probably never make it to Kholinar, I mean its THOUSANDS of years of purgatory. Anyway that's where the question came from.

[Shardlet]

I would think that the arrival of a Herald would likely signal the inevitability of a desolation.  I also think that the Heralds, while perhaps twisted, are not depraved.  They will either be redeemed or replaced in SA.  My suspicion is that most will be redeemed.  Darkness would be the biggest impending threat, but, if he is who many here think he is, then I think it unlikely that he would seek to end Taln.  I think he would realize that his plan to stave off the desolation had failed.  The Heralds know that when the Heralds return from damnation, the desolation is knocking at the door and hiding behind the sofa and pretending not to be home will not make it go away.  Their shared history is too long and I think their internal guilt is too great for them to go hunting for Taln's head.

[Natans]

I would think that the arrival of a Herald would likely signal the inevitability of a desolation.  I also think that the Heralds, while perhaps twisted, are not depraved.  They will either be redeemed or replaced in SA.  My suspicion is that most will be redeemed.  Darkness would be the biggest impending threat, but, if he is who many here think he is, then I think it unlikely that he would seek to end Taln.  I think he would realize that his plan to stave off the desolation had failed.  The Heralds know that when the Heralds return from damnation, the desolation is knocking at the door and hiding behind the sofa and pretending not to be home will not make it go away.  Their shared history is too long and I think their internal guilt is too great for them to go hunting for Taln's head.

 

I only thing that I think would motive The heralds, (the ones that aren't psyco or droolling) is the fear to die again and go to damnation, like they dreaded enough to betray a friend to almost eternal suffering.

 

Jez even thinked that if Taln are trapped that would be enough to prevent the Everstorm. Great friend this one , "Hey Taln go to damnation and stay there alone with fire, hooks forever, so we nine can hang out in Roshar"

 

In my book all nine are in the same level of selfishness that Sadeas or Amaram, doing what is good to them and letting everyone to deal it with the problems.

 

Even Black, if he is how many say, motives look to me a selfish excuse, he doing what he is doing just because he is afraid that the last desolation occur. And to prevent that  he trod upon anyone in his path, instead of do what he had to.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Natans

[Shardlet]

I can get behind the idea that many of the nine were actively attempting to stave off the desolation any and every way they knew how.  I would not put them in the same camp as Sadeas and Amaram.  S&A have not endured torture for thousands of years and certainly not on behalf of others.  For the entire span of the Heraldic epocs, the Heralds were the embodiment of unselfishness.  They made sacrifices and endured torments that we can't even begin to fathom.  They reached a point when they just couldn't do it anymore.  I don't begrudge them that.  It is unclear how they have spent the last 4500 years.  I'm sure that along the way there have been periods of self-indulgence for each of them.  But, where did they put most of their energy? Are they still fighting the fight in their own way?  Are any of them mental jello?  I don't know.  We'll find out as SA unfolds.  I suspect that each has spent a great deal of time working against the Everstorm as best they knew how.

 

Shallash's guilt appears to be the most acute. I suspect that She will be the first to re-up and that will happen (a wild and baseless prediction) in book three.  And I think that by book 5, each of the nine will have faced Taln in some way or another. 

[Fistsofrage]

What's the phrase... "the higher they are the harder they fall"?

 

What the Heralds did was a very serious thing. By abandoning their post they have pretty much doomed humanity. And although Taln was in a physical purgatory, the others were in another of the worst kind, the emotional purgatory that stems from guilt, shame, and failure to do what's right. They could be jealous of Taln, even though he's suffered, because his spirit is still clean and whole (he's still the hero he always was).

 

Shalash may supposedly be defacing any monument that's purpose is to honor her, darkness has supposedly attached himself to a twisted version of what he thinks the law/justice is, and jezrien is supposedly a drooling mental mess. They lacked the heroic instinct to understand that by abandoning Taln they weren't really escaping anything, but making it worse for themselves. At least in purgatory they'd still be themselves and together in their pain, but now they're separated by shared guilt, and wallowing in their own self-destructive cycles.

 

Point is, they have fallen so low that I think one of them ambushing Taln is a possibility, and even if they didn't, it'll take a lot to raise them up to where they once were. It might even be impossible, and Kaladin and the rest will have to fight on their own against the worst desolation mankind has yet to face.

[Natans]

I can get behind the idea that many of the nine were actively attempting to stave off the desolation any and every way they knew how.  I would not put them in the same camp as Sadeas and Amaram.  S&A have not endured torture for thousands of years and certainly not on behalf of others.  For the entire span of the Heraldic epocs, the Heralds were the embodiment of unselfishness.  They made sacrifices and endured torments that we can't even begin to fathom.  They reached a point when they just couldn't do it anymore.  I don't begrudge them that.  It is unclear how they have spent the last 4500 years.  I'm sure that along the way there have been periods of self-indulgence for each of them.  But, where did they put most of their energy? Are they still fighting the fight in their own way?  Are any of them mental jello?  I don't know.  We'll find out as SA unfolds.  I suspect that each has spent a great deal of time working against the Everstorm as best they knew how.

 

Shallash's guilt appears to be the most acute. I suspect that She will be the first to re-up and that will happen (a wild and baseless prediction) in book three.  And I think that by book 5, each of the nine will have faced Taln in some way or another. 

 

I begrudge(nice word this one) =)

 

The Heralds betrayed the trust of a friend in the most evil way and breaked a oath that could possible have helped cause the death of their god, and other gods, and who knows how many humans in many shards are affected, by letting Odium gain space in roshar.

 

Honor said that their war in Roshar could affect the very pillar of stars (or something by this effect) needless to say that keeping the oathpact are of extreme importance.

 

Jez said that them, by free will, choiced they fate and then deserted, Taln keeped his oath by free will and for sure he is paying for the their betray, (no amount of guilt if there is any) will clean this.

 

In my opinion their treason is the thing that caused most damage in the cosmere. Jez said that better one man suffer then 10, but he forgot that is better to that 10 suffer then billions die =)

 

 

PS: I really hate traitors =)

Edited November 8, 2013 by Natans

[Daishi5]

They were being tortured, the fact they went back more than once would be amazing. Taln didn't get a choice, he died. If honor set up the oath pact and knew his heralds had to willingly go back to be tortured 100 times in order for him to win that would be the official Worst Plan Ever.

I think the torture could not have been part of the original pact, its just too unbelievably stupid for honor to have agreed to that. Which means the heralds abandoned a pact that was not what they signed up for, but only after they tried their best.

[Fistsofrage]

They were being tortured, the fact they went back more than once would be amazing. Taln didn't get a choice, he died. If honor set up the oath pact and knew his heralds had to willingly go back to be tortured 100 times in order for him to win that would be the official Worst Plan Ever.

I think the torture could not have been part of the original pact, its just too unbelievably stupid for honor to have agreed to that. Which means the heralds abandoned a pact that was not what they signed up for, but only after they tried their best.

 

Ouch.

 

Don't judge until we find out the whole story friend

 

Yes, the Heralds had every right to quit since they signed up freely (as does every other superhero/hero), but they quit for the wrong reasons? (question mark because everyone has different opinions)

 

They quit while thinking that it was best for them to do so. They valued their physical well being more than their mental/spiritual well-being (not quite sure what to call it). If you think about it, heroes are people who save others, or fight instead of fleeing because they know what effect not doing so would have on them (or their psyche or w.e). There are many reasons why people do things, but heroes do what they do because they want to be true to themselves. The Heralds "gave up" when they put down their blades. They probably didn't realize it but among the list of things they "gave up", they gave up on themselves as well. Which is why their current situation reflects that decision...

[name_here]

Abandoning their post wasn't the right thing to do, but enduring thousands of years of torture is more than anyone can expect of a human. They did what was right for far longer than could be expected, and I for one cannot condemn them for eventually breaking.

 

The Heralds ultimately failed as heroes, but that just makes them ordinary, not vile, despite the cost of their failure. We praise heroes because they aren't ordinary, they do what we can't.

 

As for why Honor would create the Oathpact if it put such a burden on the Heralds, I believe he wasn't exactly spoiled for choice. My theory is that Honor, thanks to his Intent, was too weak to match Odium directly but able to force Odium to be bound by an agreement. He declared that control of Roshar and possibly Odium's freedom to move about the Cosmere as a whole would be decided by proxy; if the Heralds endured and won for enough Desolations Honor would be the victor. The Oathpact was the deal he could force and the alternative was that Odium would kill him and everyone.

Edited November 8, 2013 by name_here

[Fistsofrage]

I really wonder how the Heralds were chosen. Most people wouldn't do what they did so where did Honor find people of their caliber anyway?

[Gloom]

I agree that it is hypocritical to hold the Heralds to a standard that we would almost certainly fail to meet, but I find it interesting to see how people are responding to these fallen heroes. It's been said that the only real hero is a dead hero, and this is ample evidence of that. Talns death allows him to remain a hero, while those that lived are seen as flawed and vile creatures. The reality is that they were human. They had the same foibles and weaknesses that the rest of us do. I believe they performed admirably for an incredibly long period of time, but they are not judged by those looking in from the outside on what they accomplished, they are judged on how they failed.

[Daishi5]

I wonder why honor couldn't just best odium. He would have had cultivation's help considering they were so close. Why would two shards versus one go so poorly?

[Moogle]

I wonder why honor couldn't just best odium. He would have had cultivation's help considering they were so close. Why would two shards versus one go so poorly?

 

Somehow, I doubt Cultivation was much of a help. Some Shards just don't have an Intent suited for combat, much like Preservation. What's Cultivation going to do to Odium, make him grow? She seems to be into giving both a curse and a blessing and ultimately changing things, not necessarily culling anything. I suspect her part was 'cultivating' the Knights Radiant, who could then fight Odium.

 

Honor would be similar, though his Intent would allow him to bind Odium to a deal of some sort... which is probably what happened with the Oathpact.

 

Really, all the 'evil' Shards (a poor word for forces of nature) get the cool destructive stuff. It's a shame.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Moogle

[Gloom]

I wonder why honor couldn't just best odium. He would have had cultivation's help considering they were so close. Why would two shards versus one go so poorly?

 

I would suggest asking Devotion and Dominion...oh wait, they're both dead.

 

Odium wasn't invested in Roshar or any other planet. This means he had access to all his power, while Honor and Cultivation were heavily invested in Roshar. As far as I'm concerned, the question should really be, 'How did Honor convince Odium to invest himself in Roshar instead of having Odium kill him outright?'

 

I think there was something on Roshar that Odium wanted. I think Honor convinced Odium to fight for it, I don't know how he did this, maybe he had a way of destroying or hiding what Odium was after. Regardless, he somehow convinced Odium to fight him on more even terms.

[Fistsofrage]

I agree that it is hypocritical to hold the Heralds to a standard that we would almost certainly fail to meet, but I find it interesting to see how people are responding to these fallen heroes. It's been said that the only real hero is a dead hero, and this is ample evidence of that. Talns death allows him to remain a hero, while those that lived are seen as flawed and vile creatures. The reality is that they were human. They had the same foibles and weaknesses that the rest of us do. I believe they performed admirably for an incredibly long period of time, but they are not judged by those looking in from the outside on what they accomplished, they are judged on how they failed.

 

 

It's true that in this fantasy genre the characters can somewhat be seen as human, but we're all used to them overcoming great odds or doing things that normal humans don't usually do. We can exaggerate and say that there are great people in real life who would do the same thing given the chance, but to be honest we don't really know that. The people in these stories constantly make decisions that I doubt a lot of "normal" people would make. Kaladin's stint as a bridgeman...I seriously doubt there is a human being in this world that would do what he did. Probably someone in <5% of human beings on the planet. People are weak/soft, naturally selfish, and usually have an agenda. I'm sorry to say it, but it is what it is.

 

Most of us read these books because they have a standard that we wish humanity held. We really wish people were good like that. But for the most part they are not. People who are "different" and try to hold a better standard are usually beaten down out of jealousy or some other base emotion. If we had "real" people in instead of these fantasy chars in those positions, Odium would have won thousands of years ago, maybe at the beginning. The desolation would have killed everyone while all the world governments fought wars over the power of surgebinding.

 

Yeah...so...I don't really hold the characters in stories to a "human" standard, I just look at what's expected to be morally right and if they didn't do it, I point it out. Especially if at least one dude did the right thing. Because you can't become better until you accept that something went wrong or that there is a problem, and I sincerely wish for all the Heralds to one day stand again in the light together. Probably, because it'd be impossible in real life.

 

 

Note: If I was in that purgatory, I'd probably have given up after a second.

[Gloom]

I disagree. We have had real heroes. We don't now, because our lives are, in comparison to those lived in prior ages, easy and soft. We don't have the challenges necessary to build the level of character required to reach that level. We don't have the culture that would appreciate that level of self sacrifice. But real people can and have achieved amazing things. Alexander the Great, Joan of Arc, etc.

 

We don't like to believe this is true, and when such people do reach those heights, it is out fondest wish to tear them down, to prove they aren't any better then we are. The proof is in the pudding. How did Joan of Arc die?

[Natans]

It's true that in this fantasy genre the characters can somewhat be seen as human, but we're all used to them overcoming great odds or doing things that normal humans don't usually do. We can exaggerate and say that there are great people in real life who would do the same thing given the chance, but to be honest we don't really know that. The people in these stories constantly make decisions that I doubt a lot of "normal" people would make. Kaladin's stint as a bridgeman...I seriously doubt there is a human being in this world that would do what he did. Probably someone in <5% of human beings on the planet. People are weak/soft, naturally selfish, and usually have an agenda. I'm sorry to say it, but it is what it is.

 

Most of us read these books because they have a standard that we wish humanity held. We really wish people were good like that. But for the most part they are not. People who are "different" and try to hold a better standard are usually beaten down out of jealousy or some other base emotion. If we had "real" people in instead of these fantasy chars in those positions, Odium would have won thousands of years ago, maybe at the beginning. The desolation would have killed everyone while all the world governments fought wars over the power of surgebinding.

 

Yeah...so...I don't really hold the characters in stories to a "human" standard, I just look at what's expected to be morally right and if they didn't do it, I point it out. Especially if at least one dude did the right thing. Because you can't become better until you accept that something went wrong or that there is a problem, and I sincerely wish for all the Heralds to one day stand again in the light together. Probably, because it'd be impossible in real life.

 

 

Note: If I was in that purgatory, I'd probably have given up after a second.

 

Upvote for you.

 

I agree we are only human. But in fiction and an reality there are people how do what is right because someone was to do it.

 

Call me a fool but, This idea present in the book, of self-sacrifice and moral duty, is one of the High point to me.

 

The Heralds do the exact oposite of what was expected of them, they betrayed a friend to suffer what they didn't wanna suffer. And the consequence of they acts are disastrous.

 

 

 

Just saying

 

http://www.theage.com.au/world/philippine-man-loses-own-life-after-saving-dozens-from-floods-20090928-g8o4.html

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/aurora-shooting-died-bullets-sweeties-article-1.1119395#ixzz21TPAUdXi

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20060704165450/http:/www.house.gov/sherman/press_room/press/pr_020501_medalofhonor.htm

 

[Fistsofrage]

Upvote for you.

 

I agree we are only human. But in fiction and an reality there are people how do what is right because someone was to do it.

 

Call me a fool but, This idea present in the book, of self-sacrifice and moral duty, is one of the High point to me.

 

The Heralds do the exact oposite of what was expected of them, they betrayed a friend to suffer what they didn't wanna suffer. And the consequence of they acts are disastrous.

 

 

 

Just saying

 

http://www.theage.com.au/world/philippine-man-loses-own-life-after-saving-dozens-from-floods-20090928-g8o4.html

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/aurora-shooting-died-bullets-sweeties-article-1.1119395#ixzz21TPAUdXi

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20060704165450/http:/www.house.gov/sherman/press_room/press/pr_020501_medalofhonor.htm

 

 

 

I will agree that some people do the right thing, but it's usually in the moment. It's easy to be good for a moment but not make it a lifestyle. That's where the problem lies. If a child is gonna be hit by a car will I attempt to save him/her? The answer is yes (or at least I hope so , I haven't been tried yet). But will I go out of my way to help the thousands of children starving in third world countries and lacking a education? I might throw some money at the problem and then focus on myself and succeeding in life.

 

It's easy to do good for a moment or in the instant something bad happens but it's difficult to make it a lifestyle like Kaladin and Dalinar are attempting. I doubt many of us would have been as good as Adolin at following the Code even though we wanted to party, or drink or whatever else interests us.

 

I'm sorry to say it but the world right now is all about doing what is best for "you", and to be honest, most people don't know what is best for them and end up hurting themselves in the process. People "care" about others but never really in the way that matters. Almost everyone is terribly indifferent to what they don't think concerns them. The world as we know it seems to be rotting I'm rotting too but at least I know it and perhaps I have a chance lol.

[Moogle]

I'm sorry to say it but the world right now is all about doing what is best for "you", and to be honest, most people don't know what is best for them and end up hurting themselves in the process. People "care" about others but never really in the way that matters. Almost everyone is terribly indifferent to what they don't think concerns them. The world as we know it seems to be rotting I'm rotting too but at least I know it and perhaps I have a chance lol.

 

At the risk of going really off topic, the world has always been viewed as being 'rotten'. I believe you can trace it way back to the Greeks, if not farther. Socrates once noted “Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”

 

We're finally in an age where things are getting better at an astronomical rate. Thanks to communication technology advances, we now know more about our elected officials than ever. This might make you think there's more corruption than ever, but it's just that we finally know about it and can change it. People have never cared for people far away. It's a well studied phenomenon that the farther away a person is, the less we care about their suffering. You can blame evolution for that. Despite that, we're still helping and billionaires have pledged their fortunes to charity.

 

More healthy food than ever is being produced. We can cure diseases which would previously cripple you for life. Child mortality keeps going down, crime keeps going down, and technology keeps getting more awesome. If we're lucky, we'll even fix death and may be the first generation to not have to worry about old age. The GDP per capita of the US is 50k, which means if America taxed everything at 20% higher, it could give every citizen a 'free' $10000 a year. We are rolling in wealth previously imagined to be impossible and which would make kings envious. Things are great. Naturally, we have a ways to improve, but it seems like we're going to get there (unless we kill ourselves off and/or die to a meteor or something). Don't let nostalgia blind you to the horrors of the past: a simple flu killed tons of people, child mortality was ridiculous, and people starved in droves, rather than just in certain areas of the world now. (As it turns out, charity has hurt rather than help in the area of free food. It means African farmers are basically put out of business.) I wouldn't want to live on Roshar for all the money in the world. I recommend ignoring the constant doom and gloom of the news.

 

Actually on topic: I don't blame the Heralds one bit. I blame Honor for setting up such a ridiculous system where 9/10 of the population is slaughtered every once in a while. That's probably victim blaming, and the real fault lies with Odium, but still. C'mon Honor. Taravangian for Emperor!

Edited November 9, 2013 by Moogle

[DragonReborn]

I thought Taln died at the end of the book

[deddinty]

I thought Taln died at the end of the book

It's a common assumption, but Herald's blades work differently from regular blades, they only disappear when the herald dies.  So Taln is quite alive and confirmed to be a future viewpoint character though given the Word of Brandon that flashbacks can happen after death I guess that's not a guarantee.  And I suppose viewpoints are different from book focus characters as well.

Edited November 9, 2013 by deddinty

[Shardlet]

Criticism of Honor and the Heralds is premature.  We don't know what the Oathpact was, how it came to be, what the goal was, what the victory conditions are, the stakes, what Honor's expectations were, what the Herald's roles were, how they were chosen, the effect of the nine abandoning the Oathpact, how much time they spend on Roshar v. in Damnation, whether Taln would not have made the same choice if he survived, how Taln feels about the nine abandoning him, or really much of anything.

 

If the Herald's screwed everything over and they will not and cannot be redeemed in some fashion, then there is little point of them still existing in the story unless they will be key antagonists.  And I don't think that that will be likely.  I also think it is unlikely that all nine will make it back, as it were.  I personally suspect that Dalinar is being groomed to become a replacement Herald rather than just a KR.

[ADIMORTIS]

 What's Cultivation going to do to Odium, make him grow? 

 

 

Just for that, I'm going to give you an upvote...  

[Natans]

Criticism of Honor and the Heralds is premature.  We don't know what the Oathpact was, how it came to be, what the goal was, what the victory conditions are, the stakes, what Honor's expectations were, what the Herald's roles were, how they were chosen, the effect of the nine abandoning the Oathpact, how much time they spend on Roshar v. in Damnation, whether Taln would not have made the same choice if he survived, how Taln feels about the nine abandoning him, or really much of anything.

 

If the Herald's screwed everything over and they will not and cannot be redeemed in some fashion, then there is little point of them still existing in the story unless they will be key antagonists.  And I don't think that that will be likely.  I also think it is unlikely that all nine will make it back, as it were.  I personally suspect that Dalinar is being groomed to become a replacement Herald rather than just a KR.

 

True, but for what we know now, there is litle space to say that the Heralds gonna redeem themselves.

 

Now they are pictured as traitors and deserts, maybe you are right and there is a motive(what I think that isn't the case for jez and kelek), but even in this is the case what they had done cannot be put as a good or normal thing. Because Isn't normal let everyone suffer so you escape, this is a really selfish thing.

 

They could have at least tried tell the true look for a alternative, a replacement like you sugested but Jez said that they would simplely let everyone think that they won. not a nice thing in my book  =)

 

In my country someone that desert in the face of the enemy receive was punishiment death(the one case where such punishiment is used), and the Heralds deserted when all the wolrd needed them, so the damnation looks the right place to them go =)

Edited November 9, 2013 by Natans

[Dros]

It's possible Taln doesn't know he was screwed over by the nine other Heralds either. We don't know if they had any contact in between Desolations. He seemed confused that people didn't know who he was and confused as to why they aren't preparing for the Desolation. Perhaps he thought since he is alone upon arriving, the other Heralds were already out and ahead of him in the world (I guess, technically he's right) or he maybe he thinks he's late to the party. Perhaps that's why Hoid calls him his "confused friend," i.e. Hoid is saying, "Sorry, Taln, you're the only one left and you don't even know it."