Chapters 5-8

[JuanMoreShard]

Ok so we have learned a good bit more with these chapters. The chapters themselves seem very short but at least that makes things feel quick.

Hoid is back to being a carriage rider for Wax which leads me to the inevitable question: Does he know? Has Hoid made himself known to Wax or is his appearance vastly different from when he was a beggar in BoM. But maybe there's a chance it's not even Hoid an maybe it just became a name that people use now. Who knows but I hope Hoid is more active because he's a really cool as a character when he is part of the plot. Love him as Wit.

The next thing that really interested me was Trellium. It seems to work a bit like Compounding (and is clearly what Tensin did at the ends of BoM) but less powerful since Miles would heal way faster. So maybe Trellium has some amplification components? Interested to hear your thoughts here. The prophecy is some scary stuff but I think it's more likely the ash would come from WMDs than Ashmounts or anything since in BoM we had this teased already.

The next really nice stuff I appreciated was Wax and Max and it really made me ask a question if Max was an allomancer/ferring/twinborn as well. We still don't know how snapping works now. Maybe we'll see it through Max? But I think it would be fun, especially loved him being a bit of a little Wayne.

And feel free to talk about anything else. Especially, what did you enjoy the most? What are you most interested in?

[teknopathetic]

4 hours ago, JuanMoreShard said:

Ok so we have learned a good bit more with these chapters. The chapters themselves seem very short but at least that makes things feel quick.

Hoid is back to being a carriage rider for Wax which leads me to the inevitable question: Does he know? Has Hoid made himself known to Wax or is his appearance vastly different from when he was a beggar in BoM. But maybe there's a chance it's not even Hoid an maybe it just became a name that people use now. Who knows but I hope Hoid is more active because he's a really cool as a character when he is part of the plot. Love him as Wit.

 

It also makes me wonder why Hoid is a carriage driver. Is he looking to overhear information? Is he waiting for the right person to be in his carriage at the right moment? Could it be Steris he is looking for or waiting for her to have the right moment? Wax often can fly away home and wont need a carriage, so maybe Wit and Steris are having conversations or are going to have important talks in the future? I for one would love it if it were Steris that saves the planet in the end through the forbidden art of contingency planning.

Edited October 3, 2022 by teknopathetic

[Requiem17]

Book 2 Hoid is a carriage driver, Book 3 he's a homeless man, and Book 4 he's back to a carriage driver. Is he hanging around because he wants to see how this Trell and Harmony stuff works out, and he figures Wax will be in the middle of it, or is he trying to get himself 10 feruchemical hemalurgy spikes or Malwish medallions? For the latter two though... I feel he'd have better luck if he weren't a carriage driver.

[+robardin]

5 hours ago, Requiem17 said:

Book 2 Hoid is a carriage driver, Book 3 he's a homeless man, and Book 4 he's back to a carriage driver. Is he hanging around because he wants to see how this Trell and Harmony stuff works out, and he figures Wax will be in the middle of it, or is he trying to get himself 10 feruchemical hemalurgy spikes or Malwish medallions? For the latter two though... I feel he'd have better luck if he weren't a carriage driver.

He was also a carriage driver at least once in Stormlight Archives, when Shallan recognizes him and hugs him, to Adolin's astonishment. Maybe he just likes driving (horses or cars).

[+Oltux72]

3 hours ago, robardin said:

He was also a carriage driver at least once in Stormlight Archives, when Shallan recognizes him and hugs him, to Adolin's astonishment. Maybe he just likes driving (horses or cars).

A carriage driver is less likely to need to explain his movements. "My boss told me to drive there and wait for him, but not the reason" is often credible.

[Sandra]

the men of Gold and Red seem interesting. Is Odium joining forces with Autonomy?

[Nathrangking]

11 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

It also makes me wonder why Hoid is a carriage driver. Is he looking to overhear information? Is he waiting for the right person to be in his carriage at the right moment? Could it be Steris he is looking for or waiting for her to have the right moment? Wax often can fly away home and wont need a carriage, so maybe Wit and Steris are having conversations or are going to have important talks in the future? I for one would love it if it were Steris that saves the planet in the end through the forbidden art of contingency planning.

I love this. She will become supreme sovereign of the cosmere by out planning everyone including the shards themselves.

[+robardin]

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

A carriage driver is less likely to need to explain his movements. "My boss told me to drive there and wait for him, but not the reason" is often credible.

Well in the case of his turn as a driver in SA (WoR), it’s not like he was unknown or unrecognized to his passengers. They all immediately identified him as “You!”

But yeah. I think he’s a driver to “overhear” conversations (and remember, as he comments to Dalinar at a lighteyed feast in TWoK he doesn’t always consciously know why he’s in a particular place; he’s moved by a Fortune-based mechanism to “be where he needs to be”). Like in “Book 2” of Era 2, he’s in a position to overhear Wax’s conversation with Sazed. Wax’s half of it, anyway.

[JuanMoreShard]

4 hours ago, Sandra said:

the men of Gold and Red seem interesting. Is Odium joining forces with Autonomy?

Interesting that it's an 'or'. Either in ash or by the hands of the men of red and gold. I believe that in a WoB Brandon said that one of Odium's next moves would have been to betray Autonomy. But right now Odium's forces are the listeners and fused which I would not call "men" exactly. I'm not sure how much can change in the (less than a decade) timing from end of SA 5 to this book to have powerful men under Taravodium. 

It very much seems to be Autonomy, Odium or both involved and I cannot wait

[+robardin]

16 minutes ago, JuanMoreShard said:

Interesting that it's an 'or'. Either in ash or by the hands of the men of red and gold. I believe that in a WoB Brandon said that one of Odium's next moves would have been to betray Autonomy. But right now Odium's forces are the listeners and fused which I would not call "men" exactly. I'm not sure how much can change in the (less than a decade) timing from end of SA 5 to this book to have powerful men under Taravodium. 

It very much seems to be Autonomy, Odium or both involved and I cannot wait

And while you're waiting to catch the pop-up falling in center field, ... here comes something to blindside you from out of left field.

It's gonna be our first glimpse of Whimsy. LOL. Who pulls a Shard Ex Machina to pitch in behind Harmony and make it a 3-on-2 game of Scadrialball.

 

Epilogue

But... Why? Why would Whimsy suddenly interfere with our plans?

You are a new Vessel to Odium, and do not remember what Luni was like before Ascending. She was already erratic. Taking up Whimsy has made her even more unpredictable.

Her name was Luni? Seriously?

We tried really hard to get Cephandrius to take it. At least he would have had a purpose to his tomfoolery, infuriating as it would have been. But he refused.

And her odd stutter as she left. Shouldn't Ascending have fixed it?

It's... A reference. Th-th-th-th-that's All Folks! Something else only Rayse would have... Appreciated.

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by robardin

[JuanMoreShard]

In general I do think Autonomy need be involved, the theme of Era 2 in general has been about self-volition. Bloody Tan's comments always ring in my head. The mention of "someone else moves us" is a really great quote indicating ideas of why we do what we do and also how Wax's life has been manipulated by Harmony without his consent. Is it ok for Harmony to essentially groom Wax into being his sword? Who will Wax side with in the end?

[+robardin]

37 minutes ago, JuanMoreShard said:

In general I do think Autonomy need be involved, the theme of Era 2 in general has been about self-volition. Bloody Tan's comments always ring in my head. The mention of "someone else moves us" is a really great quote indicating ideas of why we do what we do and also how Wax's life has been manipulated by Harmony without his consent. Is it ok for Harmony to essentially groom Wax into being his sword? Who will Wax side with in the end?

The question is to what degree Harmony can "manipulate" Wax's character, his nature. He can present Wax with environmental pressures and controls, but not how he reacts to them, is how I see it.

It feels to me very similar to what Gaotona reflects upon at the end of The Emperor's Soul, with respect to Shai's "modifications" to her soulstamp of Ashravam, which were 100% stable:

Quote

This isn't changing his soul. This isn't making him a different person. It is merely nudging him toward a certain path, much as a con man on the street will strongly nudge his mark to pick a certain card. It is him. The him that could have been.

Who knows? Perhaps it is the him that would have been.

Harmony, of course, has a much better idea of "the him that would have been" than Shai or Gaotona while doing his "nudging". The principle is the same, though. Unless Harmony actually "checkmates" Wax into a no-choice position, he's simply "arranging things" so that Wax can - and if he's the man Harmony thinks/hopes he is, will - go in a certain direction.

You could say His "arranging" for Wax's chest with his Sterrion guns to end up in the Vanishers' stolen cargo container at the end of Alloy of Law as fulfilling Wax's plea for "a little help" was much more of a tangible act of "divine interference".

[teknopathetic]

The without consent thing bothers me.  Wax worshipped Harmony as a god, so I think there was a bit of deitific consent there. Wax just misunderstood what his religion might ask of him. As an atheist, to me it seems fair that if someone worships and prays to a deity, that the deity might utilize you for the greater good. 

Edited October 9, 2022 by teknopathetic

[JuanMoreShard]

But the Path isn't about worshipping Harmony himself. He is their God and creator but their religion is about simply trying to do more than good. It stipulates that subjects should seek "their" path, it does not hold that they should do Harmony's will. I'm atheist too btw, but I don't think anyone should be driven in a certain direction in bad ways, I especially refer to Paalm. That was some messed up stuff, I think. 

Harmony talks about noninterventionism often on why he can't solve every problem, and yet, he torture's this man in a way that is directly in conflict with the main tenants of his own theology (that he created). 

And his nudges are a bit more than nudges I'd say.

[Johnny Silverlight]

“The ash comes again,” the man said through bloody lips, his voice strangely grating. “The world will fall to it. You will get what you deserve, and all will wither beneath a cloud of blackness and a blanket of burned bodies made ash.”.....

“Your end,” the voice whispered. “Your end comes. Either in ash, or at the hands of the men of gold and red. Gold and—”

This is definitely another Death Rattle.

[JuanMoreShard]

3 minutes ago, Johnny Silverlight said:

“The ash comes again,” the man said through bloody lips, his voice strangely grating. “The world will fall to it. You will get what you deserve, and all will wither beneath a cloud of blackness and a blanket of burned bodies made ash.”.....

“Your end,” the voice whispered. “Your end comes. Either in ash, or at the hands of the men of gold and red. Gold and—”

This is definitely another Death Rattle.

I thought that too! But I think it's more likely it's just Trell talking since the voice is different. And it would be interesting to see if the unmade could leave Roshar. Could be cool in order to have more magical interactions

[Little_Dagger]

29 minutes ago, Johnny Silverlight said:

“The ash comes again,” the man said through bloody lips, his voice strangely grating. “The world will fall to it. You will get what you deserve, and all will wither beneath a cloud of blackness and a blanket of burned bodies made ash.”.....

“Your end,” the voice whispered. “Your end comes. Either in ash, or at the hands of the men of gold and red. Gold and—”

This is definitely another Death Rattle.

I hope it is not a death rattle, since those have a tendency to come true! Though it would kind of make sense for Odium to bring his "officers" - the Unmade - to a new war

[Hoids Imaginary Friend]

Well if that's our Hoid he'd still be a lightweaver right?

We know from the SP's his Cryptic is still around. Gunna keep an eye out for odd patterns nearby.

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, Hoids Imaginary Friend said:

Well if that's our Hoid he'd still be a lightweaver right?

We know from the SP's his Cryptic is still around. Gunna keep an eye out for odd patterns nearby.

No guarantee that Hoid's found a way to get his spren off of Roshar (out of the Rosharan system). He could simply have found a way to put Design in a gemstone for cold storage while he's gone or something. (Or one he can carry around, but not release the spren from away from Roshar?)

I dunno, he didn't seem surprised to see a seon away from Sel and even told Shallan what to do with it, so maybe there is some similar principle in play for a Cryptic bonded to him?

[Little_Dagger]

5 hours ago, robardin said:

No guarantee that Hoid's found a way to get his spren off of Roshar (out of the Rosharan system). He could simply have found a way to put Design in a gemstone for cold storage while he's gone or something. (Or one he can carry around, but not release the spren from away from Roshar?)

I dunno, he didn't seem surprised to see a seon away from Sel and even told Shallan what to do with it, so maybe there is some similar principle in play for a Cryptic bonded to him?

Actually, it is known:

Spoiler

In Secret Project 3 we see Hoid and Design in a bar

 

[JustQuestin2004]

14 hours ago, Johnny Silverlight said:

“The ash comes again,” the man said through bloody lips, his voice strangely grating. “The world will fall to it. You will get what you deserve, and all will wither beneath a cloud of blackness and a blanket of burned bodies made ash.”.....

“Your end,” the voice whispered. “Your end comes. Either in ash, or at the hands of the men of gold and red. Gold and—”

This is definitely another Death Rattle.

Or maybe it's Trell warning about Odium?

What if Trell/Autonomy is acting against the new Odium and is doing all of this to deny TarOdium any easy access to the Metallic Arts, which are super-easy to use and transport off-world, and even produce if you're willing to violate human rights.

What if Trell is trying to destroy Scadrial to save the Cosmere in a really twisted way?

Crazy theory I know, but that's kind of all we have for now.

[desi_sparta]

21 hours ago, robardin said:

And while you're waiting to catch the pop-up falling in center field, ... here comes something to blindside you from out of left field.

It's gonna be our first glimpse of Whimsy. LOL. Who pulls a Shard Ex Machina to pitch in behind Harmony and make it a 3-on-2 game of Scadrialball.

 

Epilogue

But... Why? Why would Whimsy suddenly interfere with our plans?

You are a new Vessel to Odium, and do not remember what Luni was like before Ascending. She was already erratic. Taking up Whimsy has made her even more unpredictable.

Her name was Luni? Seriously?

We tried really hard to get Cephandrius to take it. At least he would have had a purpose to his tomfoolery, infuriating as it would have been. But he refused.

And her odd stutter as she left. Shouldn't Ascending have fixed it?

It's... A reference. Th-th-th-th-that's All Folks! Something else only Rayse would have... Appreciated.

 

Holy storming rust!!!! Is the reference to stuttering a direct confirmation that Taravangium retained his variable intelligence and empathy condition even after ascension? 

[JustQuestin2004]

7 minutes ago, desi_sparta said:

Holy storming rust!!!! Is the reference to stuttering a direct confirmation that Taravangium retained his variable intelligence and empathy condition even after ascension? 

This is joke, I think.

A big Loony joke that I absolutely enjoyed.

Also, Taravangian didn't quite have Compassion, it more of a sliding scale of Logical Intelligence and Emotional Intelligence. If it was actually compassion then he would have tried to stop his own plans of causing mass death. He didn't.

Edit: whoops, I misread. I thought you wrote compassion, not empathy. 

Though just to also say, Taravangian doesn't have the sliding scale anymore, he has both the Intellect he craved and the 'Passion' that was needed to Ascend.

Edited October 5, 2022 by JustQuestin2004

[drunkenbotanist]

On 10/4/2022 at 4:23 AM, Nathrangking said:

I love this. She will become supreme sovereign of the cosmere by out planning everyone including the shards themselves.

Steris with the future seeing of preservation or cultivation... 

[+sugjesstive]

On 10/4/2022 at 8:53 AM, robardin said:

Epilogue

But... Why? Why would Whimsy suddenly interfere with our plans?

You are a new Vessel to Odium, and do not remember what Luni was like before Ascending. She was already erratic. Taking up Whimsy has made her even more unpredictable.

Her name was Luni? Seriously?

We tried really hard to get Cephandrius to take it. At least he would have had a purpose to his tomfoolery, infuriating as it would have been. But he refused.

And her odd stutter as she left. Shouldn't Ascending have fixed it?

It's... A reference. Th-th-th-th-that's All Folks! Something else only Rayse would have... Appreciated.

 

On 10/5/2022 at 6:00 AM, desi_sparta said:

Holy storming rust!!!! Is the reference to stuttering a direct confirmation that Taravangium retained his variable intelligence and empathy condition even after ascension? 

No; I genuinely think this is a Looney Tunes quote/reference. (bolded the parts above for emphasis)