Long Game 87: Choose Your Own Manywar

[Stick.]

I agree with Fifth that a conversion mechanic could be hidden in one of those secret factions, and also agree with Kas that an SK could exits. To give my two cents on the faction sizes, 4/4/3/2/2/2 speaks to me for no particular reason. I can also get behind 4/4/3/3/2/1. I think the revolutionaries should probably not be more than 3 people because of their potential to work with the elims, and together they seem rather powerful. For this reason, I think the elim team is also 3 or 2 people.

1 hour ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Voting Stick has never gone wrong for me, nope! Never.

Oh come on Mat  I've been dying early too frequently lately </3 

[Mat]

12 minutes ago, _Stick_ said:

Oh come on Mat  I've been dying early too frequently lately </3 

Just doing my poke vote duty  Just think of it in this way— you can guarantee that my vote will end somewhere different since I almost never keep my pokes.

But yes, you have, and I’m aware of that.

[Kasimir]

1 hour ago, Fifth Scholar said:

whoever has more members among the two wins

Steel has clarified this. The Infiltrators are not a hostile faction to the Revolutionaries. The Revolutionaries only have to outnumber all hostile factions. They can win together. This is only a problem if endgame is triggered and the Elims don't outnumber the Revolutionaries as well. But it's a really small problem compared to say, inter-Royalist brawling, or fundamental Royalist-Revolutionary incompatibility.

1 hour ago, Fifth Scholar said:

(Well, they’re a direct threat to everyone because of the kill, but you get my point >>) 

Their chief weapon is the kill and more significant faction/distro knowledge...their two chief weapons are the kill, and more significant faction/distro knowledge and their ability to siphon Breath and items from their targets...their three chief weapons are the kill, and more significant faction/distro knowledge and their ability to siphon Breath and items from their targets!

Soddit, I'll come in again >>

1 hour ago, Fifth Scholar said:

Faction alliances will likely shift as the game goes on.

Welcome to faction games!

This is why I hate them >>

Spoiler

 

[Fifth Scholar]

34 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Steel has clarified this. The Infiltrators are not a hostile faction to the Revolutionaries. The Revolutionaries only have to outnumber all hostile factions. They can win together. This is only a problem if endgame is triggered and the Elims don't outnumber the Revolutionaries as well. But it's a really small problem compared to say, inter-Royalist brawling, or fundamental Royalist-Revolutionary incompatibility.

Oof. This changes things then >> I guess it’d be fairly easy for the Infils to do an endgame Rev cull to get them to win together. Unfortunate. But wouldn’t one of them still trigger endgame before the other? Maybe I’m misunderstanding >>

Quote

Their chief weapon is the kill and more significant faction/distro knowledge...their two chief weapons are the kill, and more significant faction/distro knowledge and their ability to siphon Breath and items from their targets...their three chief weapons are the kill, and more significant faction/distro knowledge and their ability to siphon Breath and items from their targets!

Soddit, I'll come in again >>

Amongst their weaponry are such diverse elements as the kill, distro knowledge, Breath theft, ruthless efficiency, and an almost fanatical devotion to the God King.

[Kasimir]

3 minutes ago, Fifth Scholar said:

Oof. This changes things then >> I guess it’d be fairly easy for the Infils to do an endgame Rev cull to get them to win together. Unfortunate. But wouldn’t one of them still trigger endgame before the other? Maybe I’m misunderstanding >>

Endgame is triggered by when the Six Commands are researched, simpliciter:

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The game cannot end until at least 6 (subject to change depending on player counts) commands have been discovered. Once this occurs, the game ends when one of the Primary Factions completes their win condition. Any other factions with win conditions completed upon the game ending also win.

All they have to do is to ensure that their wincons are completed first when at least six commands have been discovered.

4 minutes ago, Fifth Scholar said:

Amongst their weaponry are such diverse elements as the kill, distro knowledge, Breath theft, ruthless efficiency, and an almost fanatical devotion to the God King.

Spoiler

 

[Fifth Scholar]

4 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

All they have to do is to ensure that their wincons are completed first when at least six commands have been discovered.

Right, this isn’t what is giving me a headache. It’s basically the fact that the Infiltrators, from your interpretation, need to kill some of the Revolutionaries, but the Revolutionaries don’t need to get rid of Infiltrators to win. Which really means that my statement from earlier is flipped—the Revolutionaries should be fine working with the Elims, but, assuming that the Elims started smaller than the Revolutionaries, they will have to “eat their own” eventually to make sure there’s not an automatic Rev victory when the last Royal falls and the sixth command is unearthed.

[Kasimir]

Just now, Fifth Scholar said:

Right, this isn’t what is giving me a headache. It’s basically the fact that the Infiltrators, from your interpretation, need to kill some of the Revolutionaries, but the Revolutionaries don’t need to get rid of Infiltrators to win. Which really means that my statement from earlier is flipped—the Revolutionaries should be fine working with the Elims, but, assuming that the Elims started smaller than the Revolutionaries, they will have to “eat their own” eventually to make sure there’s not an automatic Rev victory when the last Royal falls and the sixth command is unearthed.

Basically, yes. Steel clarified this would be a two-Infiltrator-one-Revolutionary sort of case (for instance), with all the Royals exterminated. This would let them win. Revolutionaries do have the easier shot at the wincon since they just have to outnumber every hostile faction (and keep in mind that we don't know if the secret factions are hostile - this could really boil down to just outnumbering both Royalists individually.) Revolutionaries and Infiltrators would have to agree to careful numbers pruning which could be very fragile and easily fall apart, but they're not hostile so there's a clear path to victory together if they're committed to it.

Think about kayana scheduling things like blowing up Roshar so a certain slow Shard could finish placing an avatar on each world just as the last Elim died.

This is entirely distinct from say, the two Royalists who can't win together, or the Royalists and the Revolutionaries.

[Steeldancer]

Quick GM Note: due to IRL circumstances, StrikerEZ needs to drop out of the game. I'm hoping to get a pinch hitter, but as this is a faction game where player counts matter, just making it public knowledge. 

[Kasimir]

I don't really care what anyone is gonna think about this.

If you are a conversion faction and you change wincons, keep your damn hands off me and let me die in peace >>

It's not every game I get a wincon I can live with, go find someone else's life to ruin and to force them to betray their faction and whatnot.

Obligatory go away notice.

[Mat]

1 hour ago, Kasimir said:

Think about kayana scheduling things like blowing up Roshar so a certain slow Shard could finish placing an avatar on each world just as the last Elim died.

I mean, that worked perfectly, did it not? :P.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Matrim's Dice

[Kasimir]

3 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

I mean, that worked perfectly, did it not? :P.

Exactly my point. I wouldn't discount cooperation or a commitment to it - it's certainly possible it's not the route they'll take because it's too fragile and too at the mercy of lots of factors, but it's not exactly Mission Impossible either.

If anything, I just want to counsel wariness because some factions have multiple routes to their wincons. Not realising that can get us shanked in the back. Interfactional backstabbing is not necessarily any of my business but I don't want to count on the Elims being divided from the other factions because I feel they can snowball their power really easily and so we have to be cautious of that and the dynamic with other factions.

[The Unknown Ajah]

3 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Steel has clarified this. The Infiltrators are not a hostile faction to the Revolutionaries. The Revolutionaries only have to outnumber all hostile factions. They can win together. This is only a problem if endgame is triggered and the Elims don't outnumber the Revolutionaries as well. But it's a really small problem compared to say, inter-Royalist brawling, or fundamental Royalist-Revolutionary incompatibility.

Their chief weapon is the kill and more significant faction/distro knowledge...their two chief weapons are the kill, and more significant faction/distro knowledge and their ability to siphon Breath and items from their targets...their three chief weapons are the kill, and more significant faction/distro knowledge and their ability to siphon Breath and items from their targets!

Their ability to siphon items is their kill. So their two chief weapons are item and Breath siphoning kills and greater faction/distro knowledge. 

Edited July 8, 2022 by The Unknown Novel

[Kasimir]

1 minute ago, The Unknown Novel said:

Their ability to siphon items is their kill. So their two chief weapons are item and Breath siphoning kills and greater faction/distro knowledge. 

Two separate functions.

[Kasimir]

Alright, technically we're not supposed to edit votes in, so:

Xino

Gonna open a non-Stick, non-Mat option.

Lesgo.

[Clanky]

OOG stuff currently half of my country is without internet or even cell service so it's tough getting to be too active in this game. Hopefully it will comeback soon but I'll be basically off the radar till it does.

As for in game stuff I'm unsure of how exactly to go forwards in a game like this still. It's tough to tell what's someone playing as an eliminator vs just a different faction than you let alone with the three secret factions.

6 hours ago, Fifth Scholar said:

Agree, @Ashbringer; while 4/4/3/2/2/2 makes the most intuitive sense to me, 4/4/3/3/2/1 is also possible, and just from the sounds of them, the Cult and the Edgli groups seem like they might function with only one starting member, and possibly be conversion or missionary factions a la Jaddeth from LG12/44. 

What is your reasoning for why you think it is only the cult and edgli groups that could be single player factions and not the the adjuncts of scholars? Both "The Adjuncts of the Scholars"  and "The Followers of Edgli" are written as if they are a group and not an individual. As for "The Cult of Colors", a cult with only one person in it isn't a cult, I'm pretty sure it's just a delusion at that point. Unless you have some specific knowledge that might tell you this then I'm interested in where this came from.

[Mat]

1 hour ago, Clanky said:

What is your reasoning for why you think it is only the cult and edgli groups that could be single player factions and not the the adjuncts of scholars?

He’s obviously in that faction and has teammates 

[The Unknown Ajah]

Well, Adjuncts and Followers don't sound very convert/serial killy, and I would think in a lowish player count game like this one a converting faction would be a single person, and serial killer is almost always single person.

[Steeldancer]

Alright Archer has agreed to Pinch hit for Striker! I'm gonna add him to everything he needs to be added to. 

[Archer]

2 hours ago, Clanky said:

OOG stuff currently half of my country is without internet or even cell service so it's tough getting to be too active in this game. Hopefully it will comeback soon but I'll be basically off the radar till it does.

Roger that, your situation rings a bell, tell us if things improve. (I'm in the same boat.) 

I'm not entirely sure how anything works, and have no suspicions yet, so if you'd like to persuade me go vote for someone, I'm open to suggestions. 

What actions do I need to submit right now? 

[HOID WANTS INSTANT NOODLES]

Larinas, advisor in chief to the chief advisor of the leader of hallandren nodded. Chaos. A perfect opportunity to advance himself and his motives. More breaths wouldnt hurt either.

[The Unknown Ajah]

3 hours ago, Archer said:

What actions do I need to submit right now? 

If you have more than ten breath and therefore 1st and higher Heightenings you should probably research a command. You could also do a Heightening related action, but the more we research, the faster the game ends. Not sure if that's better or worse.

[Fifth Scholar]

7 hours ago, Clanky said:

OOG stuff currently half of my country is without internet or even cell service so it's tough getting to be too active in this game. Hopefully it will comeback soon but I'll be basically off the radar till it does.

As for in game stuff I'm unsure of how exactly to go forwards in a game like this still. It's tough to tell what's someone playing as an eliminator vs just a different faction than you let alone with the three secret factions.

What is your reasoning for why you think it is only the cult and edgli groups that could be single player factions and not the the adjuncts of scholars? Both "The Adjuncts of the Scholars"  and "The Followers of Edgli" are written as if they are a group and not an individual. As for "The Cult of Colors", a cult with only one person in it isn't a cult, I'm pretty sure it's just a delusion at that point. Unless you have some specific knowledge that might tell you this then I'm interested in where this came from.

That’s the thing though; a cult is inherently one maniac convincing everyone else that they’re right about something with no evidence. A conversion-flavour faction with one member tracks harder with this than the Adjuncts, who are a group serving a group of people. They’re more likely to be plural. Similarly, I could see an Edgli figure for her faction being able to convert Returned or something. Of course, most of this speculation is rather baseless, but I do think the factions will mostly stick to their flavour if possible. 

Quote

Roger that, your situation rings a bell, tell us if things improve. (I'm in the same boat.) 

I'm not entirely sure how anything works, and have no suspicions yet, so if you'd like to persuade me go vote for someone, I'm open to suggestions. 

What actions do I need to submit right now? 

Hello @Archer, and welcome. Since you’re a pinch-hitter, I’m not gonna vote for you on this, but I am very curious why you are bringing action questions to the thread before your faction—it feels a bit performative and I’m not sure if it’s evil-indicative. I think someone with only one doc would be more likely to take it there. But this is more of a bookmark than anything. 

[The Unknown Ajah]

4 minutes ago, Fifth Scholar said:

That’s the thing though; a cult is inherently one maniac convincing everyone else that they’re right about something with no evidence. A conversion-flavour faction with one member tracks harder with this than the Adjuncts, who are a group serving a group of people. They’re more likely to be plural. Similarly, I could see an Edgli figure for her faction being able to convert Returned or something. Of course, most of this speculation is rather baseless, but I do think the factions will mostly stick to their flavour if possible. 

Hello @Archer, and welcome. Since you’re a pinch-hitter, I’m not gonna vote for you on this, but I am very curious why you are bringing action questions to the thread before your faction—it feels a bit performative and I’m not sure if it’s evil-indicative. I think someone with only one doc would be more likely to take it there. But this is more of a bookmark than anything. 

Why wouldn't you ask in either of your docs if you had two? 

[Steeldancer]

This question has been asked a couple times when I didn't think it was confusing: any time Royals are referred to in the rules, it refers to the role, not the Royalist factions. Sorry for that. 

Edited July 9, 2022 by Steeldancer

[Fifth Scholar]

Just now, The Unknown Novel said:

Why wouldn't you ask in either of your docs if you had two? 

You would. I’m saying that a person with two docs is more likely to take it to the thread before either doc out of uncertainty, rather than the player with one doc, which, since it’s all he has, might consult it immediately. 

How would we feel about a Contribution Crusade shrekking this cycle? Since faction exes are largely contrived reasoning anyway, unless someone has a very good reason they think another player is an infiltrator, I’d be fine killing the inactives or lurkers who aren’t posting as a compromise. There’s a few to pick from but I’ll start with a stab vote for Araris. He’s normally more vocal and I’d like to hear from him.