[OB] Oathbringer chapters 31 & 32

[Andy92]

6 hours ago, Patrick Star said:

Also, regarding the unmade, I'm surprised Shallan or someone else hasn't put 2 and 2 together about the name yet.

They're called unmade.  Because they were once human or listener, and then were UNMADE into what they are now.  Literally.

I feel like this seems pretty obvious/strongly hinted at. I know some people think Odium created them, but I think what Odium did was take something that already existed and corrupted it. Maybe the 9 were humans or listeners, or maybe they were some sort of spren. But I do think they were corrupted creations, not brand new creations. 

[Steeldancer]

3 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

I feel like this seems pretty obvious/strongly hinted at. I know some people think Odium created them, but I think what Odium did was take something that already existed and corrupted it. Maybe the 9 were humans or listeners, or maybe they were some sort of spren. But I do think they were corrupted creations, not brand new creations. 

Or... corrupted pieces of the Heralds connection to Honor, broken off during the torture, and turned into an awful thing.

[Patrick Star]

2 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Or... corrupted pieces of the Heralds connection to Honor, broken off during the torture, and turned into an awful thing.

I missed that theory, but that could be.  Still something that's been unmade, though.

[Fulminato]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

 

Don't think that just because there are a few lucky people (or trolls) it is the norm. I live in europe, italy to be exact, and I can't find sanderbooks anywhere, translated or in original llanguage.

Heck, Last weekend I went to lucca comics and games, which is probably the biggest convention in italy, with up to 80000 people participating in a single day, and people asked me to get sanderbooks for them. And I was all 'yeah, that's easy, you can find everything at luccacomics, and sanderson is even famous'. And yeah, turned out, if I wanted any marvel comic from 50 years ago, I could have gotten a full collection. If I wanted any comic from bonelli editore (which I suppose few people outside of italy know, but it's a bit like marvel here), I could buy more copies than I knew were in existance. There were full stands of most book publisshers too, huge fantasy libraries. And of sanderson, I found exactly 6 books. Elantris, rithmatist, mistborn 3 and 4, calamity and firefight. I got elantris, and found that there are no drawings of aons. The puboishers saw fit to remove them; maybe they were too expensive to print ? I already know they removed random artworks from other sanderbooks.

I order everything on internet. I will read oathbringer weeks after you other guys, and in the meantime this forum will be offlimits. don't even start complaining about failing to get the book early.

fanucci had the exclusive on sanderson book, and it isn't the best publisher, yea. but i shift to full e-book some years ago, and the download is immediately aviable.

PS: comics and books cannot be compared, expecialy if you refers to 'old' issued. different market and different distribution,

[Andy92]

29 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Or... corrupted pieces of the Heralds connection to Honor, broken off during the torture, and turned into an awful thing.

I think it's possible (though not sure exactly how) that they could be corrupted versions of the Heralds. The actual Heralds are going insane, so maybe they lost a piece of themselves that made them whole? And those torn away pieces became the Unmade? I like it. 

[Fulminato]

3 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

I think it's possible (though not sure exactly how) that they could be corrupted versions of the Heralds. The actual Heralds are going insane, so maybe they lost a piece of themselves that made them whole? And those torn away pieces became the Unmade? I like it. 

the unmade exist long before the heralds broke the oathpact.

[CaptainRyan]

2 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

the unmade exist long before the heralds broke the oathpact.

But did the Unmade exist from the very start of the Desolations or did they start appearing overtime? If the first Desolation had zero Unmade involved but the second Desolation had one involved... well, that could be interesting, no?

Also, as a bit of a nit-pick, the Heralds did not break the Oathpact, they only think they did.

Quote

QUESTION

So, by the nine leaving, did that actually break the Oathpact for them? Did it change the cycle of Desolations?

BRANDON SANDERSON

They have not completely broken the Oathpact, despite what they may think.

Source: http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=oathpact (#3 in the list)

[Steeldancer]

12 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

the unmade exist long before the heralds broke the oathpact.

Not talking about the Oathpact. Or maybe we are. Dont know enough about the oathpact to know.

No, I'm talking about a piece of the Herald's spiritual web, being broken off during torture, which would be why all the Heralds are so broken. They actually have a piece of themselves missing. A piece connected to Honor, maybe. Then that piece was taken, and was corrupted and enlarged and turned into an unmade.

[king of nowhere]

2 hours ago, CaptainRyan said:

Would it be faster if I bought you a copy and shipped it? Or maybe the Kindle version? Or... I WANT TO HELP! Is there anything we can do to get you the book faster?

 

1 hour ago, Lazarus52980 said:

I agree with CaptainRyan.  How can we assist?  I might be able to setup my Amazon account to ship to Italy...

Thanks, that's moving. But there is really nothing to be done without paying a lot of extra bucks. Luckily my brother has an amazon prime account, which will cut down shipping cost and time; the book is scheduled to arrive on november 22, but those expeditions are never 100% reliable. And waiting a week to read is already a big improvement over waiting the best paet of a month, as I did for most books in the past.

57 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

fanucci had the exclusive on sanderson book, and it isn't the best publisher, yea. but i shift to full e-book some years ago, and the download is immediately aviable.

PS: comics and books cannot be compared, expecialy if you refers to 'old' issued. different market and different distribution,

I tried ebooks, but then I read the contract for one of those. It goes basically "you give us money, you don't buy anything, the book is ours, we just give you permission to read it, but we may change our mind at any time and stop giving you the book and no, we won't give you your money back in that case". In general I really dislike many ebook marketing and pricing policies, but I don't want to launch in another rant here. Suffice to say that I feel buying the book should entitle me to have an electronic version almost for free, since the main cost of it is the intellectual property, which I already bought with the paper book, and last time I checked the market disagreed with me.

Now, I am reasonably certain that if I wrote an email to sanderson (attaching a picture of my extensive sanderlibrary) he would give me a free ebook,  because that's the kind of things he does, but really, I could not do that. I am just one person, and waiting a week or two is not so unbearable that I have to bother the author himself.

[Marethyu316]

3 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

I tried ebooks, but then I read the contract for one of those. It goes basically "you give us money, you don't buy anything, the book is ours, we just give you permission to read it, but we may change our mind at any time and stop giving you the book and no, we won't give you your money back in that case". In general I really dislike many ebook marketing and pricing policies, but I don't want to launch in another rant here. Suffice to say that I feel buying the book should entitle me to have an electronic version almost for free, since the main cost of it is the intellectual property, which I already bought with the paper book, and last time I checked the market disagreed with me.

Brandon doesn't put DRMs on his ebooks, so I think that as things go he has one of the more liberal policies on ebooks.

[Subvisual Haze]

2 hours ago, muco said:

reading what Kaladin did, I get the feeling that  it's  not something Windrunners could do.

is there something else at play?

He's our hero

I definitely get the "he's special" vibe from Kaladin.  There's a lot to unpack in this chapter, but the whole thing was basically Kaladin being a Big damnation Hero on a level that the other characters can barely approach.  Maybe other Radiants are "farther ahead" in their oaths, but the quality of Kaladin's oaths and the degree which he lives them indicate to me at least that he's progressing towards something more than being just another Radiant.

We have Stormfather once again referring to Kaladin as the "Son of Tanavast".  I believe he has referred to Kaladin as either Son/Child of Tanavast or Son of Honor in every book so far.  To the best of my recollection we have no indication that Stormfather addresses anyone else with that title, not even Dalinar.  Not sure what exactly it means (a direct genetic descendant of Tanavast?), but it seems like an important title to keep popping up specifically for Kaladin.

In addition to that, we have Kaladin challenging Stormfather, a literal representation of a highstorm, to stop the highstorm from blowing and Stormfather actually seems to consider it!  At the end of the chapter Stormfather gives Kaladin a storm-ride straight to Urithiru as a sort of apology.  This is the same Stormfather who tried to call down a highstorm on the whole Alethi army last book, and never felt the need to apologize to Dalinar afterward.  Yet here he seems to be shamed by Kaladin's example of fighting the storm itself to save a few lives.

I'm really not sure how you could better demonstrate the Windrunner "I will protect" ideals than what Kaladin was doing in this chapter.  He seems to come alive in those moments of crisis when another person needs protecting.  If only he could stay on the front lines protecting people from the storms, but unfortunately he's been drawn back into the Urithiru politics clowncar and it's time to run into Amaram yet again.

[SilverTiger]

I want to know what'll happen next... But unfortunately, my getting the book is dependent on my grades. Unless I can find enough money to but it myself. Does anyone know how much it costs (American dollars) as a hardback?

Also, I think that Jasnah will be one of the Interludes directly after part one. Because her return will need to be explained to everyone who didn't read the Tor excerpt or is on 17th Shard.

[CaptainRyan]

4 minutes ago, SilverTiger said:

I want to know what'll happen next... But unfortunately, my getting the book is dependent on my grades. Unless I can find enough money to but it myself. Does anyone know how much it costs (American dollars) as a hardback?

If you buy it full price, it will be around $35. If you have Amazon Prime it is $21. If you are a member of the Barnes & Nobles club it is ~$21.

If you require help on hw assignments/projects then message me. I already help my cousin on a ~twice a month basis so I am happy to help out. Or, even better, start a thread in the General Discussion forum, tag me, and the whole dang Shard might help!

[Harbour]

After ending the Part 1 i realized how i miss Chasms Shallan. Smart, understanding, witty, not pretending to be someone else. Just genuine Shallan'y Shallan.

The girl we saw in the Part 1 is the hyper-reflective self-eating multi-person. I actually dont like her if to look at her as the whole. Bring my Shallan back!

[paperstones]

59 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I definitely get the "he's special" vibe from Kaladin.  There's a lot to unpack in this chapter, but the whole thing was basically Kaladin being a Big damnation Hero on a level that the other characters can barely approach.  Maybe other Radiants are "farther ahead" in their oaths, but the quality of Kaladin's oaths and the degree which he lives them indicate to me at least that he's progressing towards something more than being just another Radiant.

I may be wrong here but I think there is a WoB where the Shattering may have been AFTER the Recreance. 

Quote

WETLANDER

Did the Splintering happen before the Recreance?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I will reveal this as we go. However, be aware that in the past, when a Shard was killed, the person holding it, it is a slow burn to actually kill someone; because power cannot be destroyed. So, what it means to be killed means something a little different in these cases.

If that is so there may be more powerful Honorspren around and that could be giving Kaladin a higher power ceiling. 

Kaladin being referred to as the Son of Tanavast could be related to this. 

[Agent34]

Dalinar has been called a Son of Honor before, most recently in the last set of chapters when Stormfather said he wasn't a hypocrite. 

As for Kaladin I found a paraphrased WoB which seems to suggest something's unique about him.

Quote

ARGENT

When Kaladin speaks his oath, there’s always a very visual explosion of power, like a glyph.

BRANDON SANDERSON

That doesn’t necessarily happen with them all, and you’ll find out why.

 

#71

 

[Steeldancer]

16 minutes ago, Agent34 said:

Dalinar has been called a Son of Honor before, most recently in the last set of chapters when Stormfather said he wasn't a hypocrite. 

As for Kaladin I found a paraphrased WoB which seems to suggest something's unique about him.

 

I'm inclined to think that's actually because of the way that he suddenly makes a decision to follow the oath, rather than easing into it like most of the other radiants we've seen so far.

Also did I really get 40 rep for making a fart joke? I don't know whether to be pleased or just really disappointed. 

Edited November 8, 2017 by Steeldancer

[Zea mays]

6 hours ago, Salkara said:

Note: I don't actually recommend doing this. It's wrong. Wait a week like the rest of us poor unfortunate souls.

Yes. We poor unfortunate souls

In pain

In need

Damnation where can I find a sea-witch to trade my soul er voice to for an early OB copy? 

[CJ Feboris]

10 hours ago, Fourth Of The Night said:

Huh! I've never thought to listen to the books at a faster rate! You don't lose anything with it going so fast?

No, it is the only way to listen, 1.5 feels like a normal rate and 2.0 feels only slightly fast. It is a bit hard when there are unfamiliar words but after a few minutes you won't even notice that the audio is playing fast. 

[maxal]

Alright so time to write down my impressions, better late than never.

Chapter 31

First, I have to say, I really enjoyed Kaladin's chapter this week and I loved how his character arc concluded. My interest into his Parshendi story arc has not been tremendously high, but after this chapter I feel it has been rekindled.

I thought the Parshendis, uniting, conquering and treating the human worst then they have been treated was a nice turn. I have hope for Kaladin's small group of innocent Parshendis. Sah's desire to find a home, to protect his daughter felt genuine, but the Fused of this world and the yellow sprens might have other plans. The intrusion of the Voidbringer was terrifying enough and the exchange left me satisfied.

I also really enjoyed Kaladin's talk with Syl about what is right and what is not right, on how the circumstances make it right, not the action themselves. I really understand Kaladin to think this is all way too complicated and to wish for an easy way out: a code to tell him precisely what he can do and what he cannot do. I fear he may fall into inaction of he starts to involve himself within too many conflicting sides. Still, it bodes well for his future character arc. I find it interesting.

I was pleased to see him fly back to Urithiru.

Chapter 32

This one was a surprised. While I did think it was possible to have one Kaladin chapter this week, I was dead convinced at least one of them would be Dalinar. Turns out I was wrong, it was Shallan. I have mixed feelings about Shallan. I am not sure I like where her character seems to be heading: too much internal drama. It feels like a lot right now. The scene with Paloma was also odd. Something made me tick with it, but I am not sure what. I filed it for later.

Sebrarial has something to hide. I know a lot of readers really like him, but I don't trust him. I really don't.

And, Jasnah is back! This was unexpected. I thought Brandon would keep her out of the story for longer, but I am glad he changed his mind. It made for a perfect ending to part 1, just enough engaging to make me yearn for the rest, but not so much to make the wait painful.

So a good ending. Things have gotten odd for me with Shallan: I wouldn't mind if we skipper her POV for part 2. I had different views a few weeks ago but I have changed my mind today. 

[Mr Maker]

3 hours ago, Andy92 said:

I feel like this seems pretty obvious/strongly hinted at. I know some people think Odium created them, but I think what Odium did was take something that already existed and corrupted it. Maybe the 9 were humans or listeners, or maybe they were some sort of spren. But I do think they were corrupted creations, not brand new creations. 

I agree with this, and had generally felt the whole situation might pan out something like this:

Apologies if WOB or any of this has already been proven incorrect or suggested elsewhere on the forum.

1. Dawnshards = original Adonalsium spren (on Roshar – homeworld to a native population of Listeners)

2. Dawnsingers were Listeners bonded/fused with the Dawnshards, the leaders of the Listener population, and responsible for creating the Dawnchant.

3. All was well until Adonalsium splits, and then humans, the three shards, and conflict arrived.

4. While still in possession of their faculties the Shards make a bargain (much like on Scadrial) to create some balance on the Roshar. This leads to the Oathpact.

4. Oathpact is formed, modelled loosely how the local spren-magic system works, and on imported ideas of chivalry/knights etc, and most drastically perhaps, this Oathpact overrides the rights of Roshar's native Listener population. Agreement is made for Odium to corrupt/break dawnshards+singers, investing into them – creating Unmade. Honor invests equally into making Honor-blades, giving them to humans.

5. This effectively usurps the native listener population, wrecked their futures, warped their gods, puts them between a rock and a hard place, and turned them into tools that can be controlled by Odium.

6. Native spren were either warped by odium, stopped actively bonding with listeners, or the listeners did not bond (and forgot how to) due to fear of being unwillingly taken over by a bad spren. The honor/cultivation spren then created the nahel bond instead to mimic the pre-existing listener-spren relationship with humans, and the surges and blades of the Heralds.

7. The Recreance is caused by discovering the knowledge that the world actually belonged to the listeners, and that Odium, Honor and Cultivation (and by association their various spren) overthrew the Listeners for the greater good in fight against Odium. As knights radiant they are actively a part of this guilty un-honorable act, and feel it is conflict with their oaths - so they immediately break them.

 

Notes and more speculation.

Gavilar suggests that he will return the Parshedi gods (now Unmade) – they don’t like this as they remember enough to know they loose free will. They do not know that they are actually their old corrupted leaders the Dawnsingers, and have little chance of free will in a world that is set up against them.

The reason we only know of 9 Unmade is perhaps because when the Heralds go into damnation between desolations, the Unmade disappear/go there too. Now that the last Herald has broken in damnation, and returned, perhaps so will the 10th Unmade. 

Or perhaps the Unmade were seperate humans aligned to the 10 different areas of Roshar as other have suggested Or something else!

[paperstones]

13 minutes ago, Mr Maker said:

All was well until Adonalsium splits, and then humans, the three shards, and conflict arrived

We know Ashyn had a catastrophe and now the population lives in isolated floating cities. I bet the Shattering lead to this catastrophe and caused the migration humans to Roshar.

[Mr Maker]

4 minutes ago, paperstones said:

We know Ashyn had a catastrophe and now the population lives in isolated floating cities. I bet the Shattering lead to this catastrophe and caused the migration humans to Roshar.

I didn't know about the floating cities from Ashyn – cool!

[Ethan_sedai]

Quote

"All is withdrawn for me. I stand against the one who saved my life. I protect the one who killed my promises. I raise my hand. The storm responds.”

dude! this is about Kaladin! the first part was from when he was defending Elhokar after Syl died, and the second part is in these last couple chapters!

[Nebty]

3 hours ago, Harbour said:

After ending the Part 1 i realized how i miss Chasms Shallan. Smart, understanding, witty, not pretending to be someone else. Just genuine Shallan'y Shallan.

The girl we saw in the Part 1 is the hyper-reflective self-eating multi-person. I actually dont like her if to look at her as the whole. Bring my Shallan back!

Agreed, but this was a long time coming. After the end of WoR she can't deny her painful truths anymore, and it's driving her nuts. This is going to be what WoR was for Kaladin, I think. Which hopefully means that she'll be getting an awesome arc by the end. Crossing my fingers.