[OB] Oathbringer chapters 31 & 32

[Guest]

Just now, king of nowhere said:

Let me disagree on that. During high school years, girls are generally more mature than boys of equal age. At reaching adulthood, well, I've seen cool responsible men and women, and I've seen dumb irresponsible men and women. I don't know if there is a statistically significant difference - I don't think anyone can define "maturity" well enough for it to be measured - but even if there was, it becomes irrelevant when discussing individual cases.

Now, in the case we are discussing, both shallan and adolin are young people who have been burdened by terrible responsibilities. both have answered the call with outstanding performance, and both are cracking under the stress. I would not say there is any maturity issue between them. There is the issue of shallan's crazyness, which is still a secret for adolin - and indeed, all other characters.I have no idea how that will work out, will depend mostly on how shallan can cope - I doubt they have any pshycologist capable of helping her on roshar

I definitely agree, within all the issues there are in between Adolin and Shallan, none of them are linked to maturity nor to Adolin being a few years older. If anything, I thought their maturity level was rather similar: Adolin clearly enjoys Shallan's tongue free banter, the two of them enjoy joking together and having someone he can relax with is definitely a plus into Adolin's life. Those two kids opened up their first date by making and laughing at poop jokes: Adolin opened the ball by mentioning Sebrarial's flatulence issue while Shallan went right into the heat of the subject by asking THE question. 

I can't say how the issues which does exist will ultimately unravel, but it seems to me they are both within similar phases of their life, they connect over that and if they ultimately break up, it won't be because they feel the age difference is too great, especially since neither of them even thought to comment on it.

[king of nowhere]

by the way, since we're here, @maxal, a few weeks ago we had a discussion where I predicted a kaladin climax at the end of part 1, and you predicted a shallan climax at the end of part 1. Turned out we were both correct.

[Aminar]

27 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

Let me disagree on that. During high school years, girls are generally more mature than boys of equal age. At reaching adulthood, well, I've seen cool responsible men and women, and I've seen dumb irresponsible men and women. I don't know if there is a statistically significant difference - I don't think anyone can define "maturity" well enough for it to be measured - but even if there was, it becomes irrelevant when discussing individual cases.

Now, in the case we are discussing, both shallan and adolin are young people who have been burdened by terrible responsibilities. both have answered the call with outstanding performance, and both are cracking under the stress. I would not say there is any maturity issue between them. There is the issue of shallan's crazyness, which is still a secret for adolin - and indeed, all other characters.I have no idea how that will work out, will depend mostly on how shallan can cope - I doubt they have any pshycologist capable of helping her on roshar

I figure there's a few immortals and worldhoppers capable of getting her pointed in the right direction. Maybe ones that have experience with the way lightweaving mucks with the mind. And who like to tell stories that get characters pointed in the right direction. 

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

6 hours ago, Aminar said:

It's not extreme when they're both in their late 20's. But 17 and 22 is a huge age gap due to how much change there is in brain state between those ages. (Mind you, I think they're more than 5 years apart our time, but Shallan is technically in her later teen's, but I don't remember how different Rosharan years are.)

Current science in brain development aside a 5 year gap is not that uncommon. historically gap's in ages was more common. Also my opinion may be skewed since I have been married 30+ years with a 14 year difference in ages. 

For the feudal kingdom and level of technology on Roshar Shallan would be considered marriageable. She had assumed she would have been married off to one of her fathers friends or allies so this is a closer in age match than she had probably thought she would have. Look at Laral and Roshone. 

 

 

[Aminar]

1 minute ago, FollowYourMuse said:

Current science in brain development aside a 5 year gap is not that uncommon. historically gap's in ages was more common. Also my opinion may be skewed since I have been married 30+ years with a 14 year difference in ages. 

For the feudal kingdom and level of technology on Roshar Shallan would be considered marriageable. She had assumed she would have been married off to one of her fathers friends or allies so this is a closer in age match than she had probably thought she would have. Look at Laral and Roshone. 

 

 

Roshar isn't at a low tech level. They're remarkably advanced, just magically rather than technologically. They have cross world communication on par with the telephone(more portable, less wideranging) They have history going back as far as ours and a good grasp on a number of scientific disciplines. I think we've seen that even most Alethi royalty has similar age ranges in their relationships. Gavilar and Navani. Sadeas and Ialai. Elhokar and his wife seem to be similar in age. So comparing them to feudal society is off. And again, I don't think its too wide. Just as wide as we'll be seeing. 

[Musica she/her]

I have to ask- why aren't people flipping out more about the fact that the KR's oaths are not nearly as carved-in-stone as we thought? Was it something we were told before? I mean, I had some thoughts on it before, but they weren't really concrete. Now, though, it was said plainly that they are subjective to one's own view on right and wrong and subject to interpertaion- and that means that the way to following them can change. The implications and consequences of that reveal can be extremey vast. If Kaladin, for example, convinces himself in the deepest level or was completely convinced by someone else that certain actions are honorable and right (and that's before even discussing the meaning of honor), then the way to follow his oaths can change. It can even be intentionally manipulated. And that is both a fun and scary thought. Cause that means the KR don't have nearly as much limitations and constraints on their powers as it might seem at first, and there is much that can be done with that. 

[djammmer]

8 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

Brandon said one Herald went back and got their blade after they broke the Oathpack. I’ve assumed it was Nale. The Shin have the rest of the blades besides the one Szeth lost to Kaladin and then Mr T said something about how they were missing one more that had the power of re-growth but that was probably a lie to make Szeth think he was still Truthless. So yes most of the Heralds are without blades that we know of and wouldn’t have surges as far as what we have been lead to understand.

right, Szeth had an honorblade... Then he lost it to kalidan?  And got a new one from nale?  And didn't taln have one? (that dalinar baited amaram into trying to steal?). So isn't shinovar short at least 3 blades?

[Samaldin he/him]

22 minutes ago, djammmer said:

right, Szeth had an honorblade... Then he lost it to kalidan?  And got a new one from nale?  And didn't taln have one? (that dalinar baited amaram into trying to steal?). So isn't shinovar short at least 3 blades?

Taln took his with him to Damnation when he died, (probably) Nale went back after the Heralds broke the Oathpact and the remaining 8 Honorblades had been with the Shin. Szeth was later given one of the Shin Honorblades, which he lost to Kaladin. What Nale gave Szeth wasn´t an Honorblade but Nightblood (for more info on Nightblood see Warbreaker). So right now the Shin have 7 of the 10 Honorblades, but they only ever had at maxmimum 9, depending when the Herald who took his/her blade back did so.

[king of nowhere]

45 minutes ago, Musica said:

I have to ask- why aren't people flipping out more about the fact that the KR's oaths are not nearly as carved-in-stone as we thought? Was it something we were told before? I mean, I had some thoughts on it before, but they weren't really concrete. Now, though, it was said plainly that they are subjective to one's own view on right and wrong and subject to interpertaion- and that means that the way to following them can change. The implications and consequences of that reveal can be extremey vast. If Kaladin, for example, convinces himself in the deepest level or was completely convinced by someone else that certain actions are honorable and right (and that's before even discussing the meaning of honor), then the way to follow his oaths can change. It can even be intentionally manipulated. And that is both a fun and scary thought. Cause that means the KR don't have nearly as much limitations and constraints on their powers as it might seem at first, and there is much that can be done with that. 

personally, because I suspected it to be so. It just made too much sense. This is no fairy tale with simple white and black morality; in a real world there can be confliting views, and radiants are not exempt.

[Sparks]

4 hours ago, Aminar said:

Roshar isn't at a low tech level. They're remarkably advanced, just magically rather than technologically. They have cross world communication on par with the telephone(more portable, less wideranging) They have history going back as far as ours and a good grasp on a number of scientific disciplines. I think we've seen that even most Alethi royalty has similar age ranges in their relationships. Gavilar and Navani. Sadeas and Ialai. Elhokar and his wife seem to be similar in age. So comparing them to feudal society is off. And again, I don't think its too wide. Just as wide as we'll be seeing. 

Part of the reason of royal relationships in Alethkar being of similar age is because of the roles expected of them. Royal women in feudal Earth were there for childbearing, and in many instances, not much else. You had household staffs for domestic duties.

Royal women in Alethkar are expected to participate in court politics, run networks of informants, arrange assassinations, scribe and excel in the “feminine arts”, which happen to include scholarship, performing arts, engineering and craftsmanship, and who knows what else. They are also expected to compete, and win, against each other, as part of the relationship team.

It would actually be more beneficial for an older or widowed Alethi lady to marry a younger Alethi lord, as long as potential heirs are not a need for the male side of the family.  As opposed to an Alethi lord marrying a younger, inexperienced girl that potentially brings nothing except childbearing to the relationship, the way many Earthly royal marriages were arranged.

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

40 minutes ago, Sparks said:

Part of the reason of royal relationships in Alethkar being of similar age is because of the roles expected of them. Royal women in feudal Earth were there for childbearing, and in many instances, not much else. You had household staffs for domestic duties.

Royal women in Alethkar are expected to participate in court politics, run networks of informants, arrange assassinations, scribe and excel in the “feminine arts”, which happen to include scholarship, performing arts, engineering and craftsmanship, and who knows what else. They are also expected to compete, and win, against each other, as part of the relationship team.

It would actually be more beneficial for an older or widowed Alethi lady to marry a younger Alethi lord, as long as potential heirs are not a need for the male side of the family.  As opposed to an Alethi lord marrying a younger, inexperienced girl that potentially brings nothing except childbearing to the relationship, the way many Earthly royal marriages were arranged.

 I think I was remembering Shallans views and her expectations, of being married to one of her fathers allies, and Lin Davar marrying his second wife who IIRC was only a few years older than Shallan. 

I will agree,  on especially Alethi marriages, needing more of a partnership but in book there is the following: 

Quote

“Lighteyes marry much younger women all the time,” Kaladin’s mother said. “For them, marriages are often about securing house loyalty.” - TWoK

Quote

She’d expected to marry one of her father’s allies, then spend the rest of her life sequestered in his manor. - Shallan , TWoK

Quote

Ironically, mixed blood was far more common in lighteyes than darkeyes. Darkeyes rarely married foreigners, but the Alethi houses often needed alliances or money from outside.

 

[Aminar]

1 hour ago, FollowYourMuse said:

 I think I was remembering Shallans views and her expectations, of being married to one of her fathers allies, and Lin Davar marrying his second wife who IIRC was only a few years older than Shallan. 

I will agree,  on especially Alethi marriages, needing more of a partnership but in book there is the following: 

 

Outside of her Dad's marriage, which was extraordinary due to her father's difficulty finding a match, none of that implies wide age ranges. Her mother and father were far closer in age range. Her father's allies have wide age ranges and the implication is she'd marry into one of their houses. You're putting medieval expectations on a society much closer to our own in development because we expect it out of fantasy. 

Even Roshone only married outside his age range because his son died. Nothing suggests its normal. 

[Leyrann]

2 hours ago, Aminar said:

none of that implies wide age ranges.

Uhm...

3 hours ago, FollowYourMuse said:

“Lighteyes marry much younger women all the time,” Kaladin’s mother said. “For them, marriages are often about securing house loyalty.” - TWoK

 

[Slothspren]

I read the chapters when they came out but while doing reread of WoR, suddenly switching to kaladin's fast paced chapter from WoR was not a good idea and the chapter kinda lost all its energy for me.

Anyway looks like that look of betrayal on the listeners will probably have some negative consequences later.

Also Kaladin noted that the flying VBs were low and bobing. That reminded me of how coinshots fly, while kaladin flies similar to lurchers so maybe their powers are similar but work on opposite forces, they were probably pushing against earth periodically hence the bobing action, or maybe not. But its theorized that odium probably has his own 10 surges in AA.

I also believe that his stormwall was a new thing since syl had never been surprised by his abilities before but this time it was new to her and she had no idea what happened. 

We know that kaladin is special in SA and according to BS he will probably have a second book so its possible for him to manifest new abilities unknown to KRs before. Heck he might even become a herald if he takes back that honorblade.

Finally, I believe that the Unmade were once Listeners, according to Rlain they hate humans and gave up themselves to odium, presumably after humans invaded roshar and took away their home. 

[Arondell]

17 minutes ago, Slothspren said:

I read the chapters when they came out but while doing reread of WoR, suddenly switching to kaladin's fast paced chapter from WoR was not a good idea and the chapter kinda lost all its energy for me.

Anyway looks like that look of betrayal on the listeners will probably have some negative consequences later.

Also Kaladin noted that the flying VBs were low and bobing. That reminded me of how coinshots fly, while kaladin flies similar to lurchers so maybe their powers are similar but work on opposite forces, they were probably pushing against earth periodically hence the bobing action, or maybe not. But its theorized that odium probably has his own 10 surges in AA.

I also believe that his stormwall was a new thing since syl had never been surprised by his abilities before but this time it was new to her and she had no idea what happened. 

We know that kaladin is special in SA and according to BS he will probably have a second book so its possible for him to manifest new abilities unknown to KRs before. Heck he might even become a herald if he takes back that honorblade.

Finally, I believe that the Unmade were once Listeners, according to Rlain they hate humans and gave up themselves to odium, presumably after humans invaded roshar and took away their home. 

Kaladin notes the bobbing motion is much like what he did when he was first learning his powers so I'm inclined to think it is simply a sign of inexperience.  Also Syl has in the past been unaware of what Kaladin could do until he did something.  e.g. Healing a shardblade severed arm.   For that matter pretty much everything Kaladin can do with the surges he had to figure out on his own without direct instruction from Syl.  Other then vague comments implying he should be able to do more.

I was under the impression that Mr. Sanderson had initially considered giving Kaladin a second book but decided against it and is going with the every order getting its own book idea.  Its possible I might have missed that particular WoB though.

Edited November 12, 2017 by Arondell

[Slothspren]

3 hours ago, Arondell said:

Kaladin notes the bobbing motion is much like what he did when he was first learning his powers so I'm inclined to think it is simply a sign of inexperience.  Also Syl has in the past been unaware of what Kaladin could do until he did something.  e.g. Healing a shardblade severed arm.   For that matter pretty much everything Kaladin can do with the surges he had to figure out on his own without direct instruction from Syl.  Other then vague comments implying he should be able to do more.

I was under the impression that Mr. Sanderson had initially considered giving Kaladin a second book but decided against it and is going with the every order getting its own book idea.  Its possible I might have missed that particular WoB though.

You may be right. But its very unlikely that Odium's shard has exactly same surges as Honor's. So in my opinion they are achieving flight through some other surge. Also I still believe that kaladin's stormwall was something unique since none of his surges could easily be manipulated into doing that kind of thing. In fact the very opposite is true. He creates a vacuum with adhesion, and creating  a vacuum around himself during a highstorm would have caused an implosion of storm around him, he somehow diverted the storm's pressure by creating an opposing pressure which is against the nature of his surges. Unless there is more to the nature of these surges i.e if they can be manipulated into doing the negative of the normal (gravitation into pushing instead of pulling, adhesion into creating pressure at the point of contact instead of reducing it like normal). It doesn't seem to be related to sharedplates either because from what we have seen of radiants's plates, they were probably more effective and good at sealing stormlight but otherwise are identical to current non-radiant plates. Same goes for blades, they dont glow and dont change shape but are otherwise similar in nature to radiant-blades.

I was certainly hoping for additional Kaladin books since to me the story is about him. No matter who is having screen time or how much exciting their events are in back of my head its still about kaladin and thats who I keep thinking about.  Anyway since we know that future books will be about szeth, eshonai, lift, renarin, jasnah, ash and taln. so there doesn't seem to be any chance of additional Kaladin book. Though I would like to know his backstory relating to Tarah, and similarly too much of shallan's backstory is confusing and missing. Also since each order is going to get a book then we can assume that eshonai is probably going to be a dustbringer, but since there is going to be a book about ash (i.e additional lightweaver book) then where is BS going to fit willshapers?  

[Blacksmithki]

3 minutes ago, Slothspren said:

You may be right. But its very unlikely that Odium's shard has exactly same surges as Honor's. So in my opinion they are achieving flight through some other surge. Also I still believe that kaladin's stormwall was something unique since none of his surges could easily be manipulated into doing that kind of thing. In fact the very opposite is true. He creates a vacuum with adhesion, and creating  a vacuum around himself during a highstorm would have caused an implosion of storm around him, he somehow diverted the storm's pressure by creating an opposing pressure which is against the nature of his surges. Unless there is more to the nature of these surges i.e if they can be manipulated into doing the negative of the normal (gravitation into pushing instead of pulling, adhesion into creating pressure at the point of contact instead of reducing it like normal). It doesn't seem to be related to sharedplates either because from what we have seen of radiants's plates, they were probably more effective and good at sealing stormlight but otherwise are identical to current non-radiant plates. Same goes for blades, they dont glow and dont change shape but are otherwise similar in nature to radiant-blades.

I was certainly hoping for additional Kaladin books since to me the story is about him. No matter who is having screen time or how much exciting their events are in back of my head its still about kaladin and thats who I keep thinking about.  Anyway since we know that future books will be about szeth, eshonai, lift, renarin, jasnah, ash and taln. so there doesn't seem to be any chance of additional Kaladin book. Though I would like to know his backstory relating to Tarah, and similarly too much of shallan's backstory is confusing and missing. Also since each order is going to get a book then we can assume that eshonai is probably going to be a dustbringer, but since there is going to be a book about ash (i.e additional lightweaver book) then where is BS going to fit willshapers?  

Well, first, if he created a vacuum around himself, it would not certainly cause an implosion of the storm if he maintained the force, because the vacuum being a side effect of removing the storm from around him and using adhesion to draw it to the rest of the storm, the vacuum would pull on the storm, but not cause it to be drawn to him if there was a continuous force attracting to the other way, so it would work perfectly well with adhesion.

Also, it's been theorised that eshonai will be a willshaper and ash will become a dustbringer due to the fact that each order gets a book and eshonai fits the description of the willshapers from the WoR epigraph almost word for word in the prologue of OB.

[Aminar]

7 hours ago, Leyrann said:

Uhm...

 

And yet we only see it in extreme cases. Almost like that might be an outdated belief, or one common in rural areas of little import. Think about how much Kal has learned about his misunderstandings of lighteyes. 

[Leyrann]

1 minute ago, Aminar said:

And yet we only see it in extreme cases. Almost like that might be an outdated belief, or one common in rural areas of little import. Think about how much Kal has learned about his misunderstandings of lighteyes. 

Or maybe we haven't actually see that many examples... We have Dalinar/Gavilar + Navani, Torol + Ialai, Roshone + Laral (which, for the record, very much is an example of this), Dalinar + Evi (which may or may not be an example) and... yeah, you got any more?

We've really only seen very few couples, actually. Most lighteyes we see we don't even know wheter or not they're married, because their role isn't big enough. Most of the highprinces are probably married, yet of how many do we know the wife? And that still leaves that the highprinces might be less likely to do so because they don't need to worry about their influence like more minor lighteyes.

I also very much doubt Brandon would spread misinformation that does not have a purpose in the plot, and the comment from Hesina very much seems to not be all that important.

[Aminar]

1 minute ago, Leyrann said:

Or maybe we haven't actually see that many examples... We have Dalinar/Gavilar + Navani, Torol + Ialai, Roshone + Laral (which, for the record, very much is an example of this), Dalinar + Evi (which may or may not be an example) and... yeah, you got any more?

We've really only seen very few couples, actually. Most lighteyes we see we don't even know wheter or not they're married, because their role isn't big enough. Most of the highprinces are probably married, yet of how many do we know the wife? And that still leaves that the highprinces might be less likely to do so because they don't need to worry about their influence like more minor lighteyes.

I also very much doubt Brandon would spread misinformation that does not have a purpose in the plot, and the comment from Hesina very much seems to not be all that important.

Kal is wrong about Light Eyes and prejudiced is very much a plot arc. 

[Slothspren]

16 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

Well, first, if he created a vacuum around himself, it would not certainly cause an implosion of the storm if he maintained the force, because the vacuum being a side effect of removing the storm from around him and using adhesion to draw it to the rest of the storm, the vacuum would pull on the storm, but not cause it to be drawn to him if there was a continuous force attracting to the other way, so it would work perfectly well with adhesion.

that's not how vacuum works (scientifically speaking). If kaladin is using vacuum to generate adhesion then theoretically this surge will not work in space. A per ars arcanum he sticks things by creating vacuum between adjoining surfaces and the atmospheric pressure around the object does all the work by pushing it towards the low pressure area. the highier the surrounding pressure is the more it will exert pressure on the low pressure area. the surrounding storm will rush towards that low pressure area with an enormous force and crush anything in-between. not to mention the absence of air in that vacuum would suffocate anyone caught in the low pressure zone due to lack of air.

Also it seems weird that a herald will switch his or her order. Unless someone else takes their place and the herald is reduced to being a normal person and they join another order as an ordinary radiant. even though the heralds are not ordinary humans anymore.

[Blacksmithki]

11 minutes ago, Slothspren said:

that's not how vacuum works (scientifically speaking). If kaladin is using vacuum to generate adhesion then theoretically this surge will not work in space. A per ars arcanum he sticks things by creating vacuum between adjoining surfaces and the atmospheric pressure around the object does all the work by pushing it towards the low pressure area. the highier the surrounding pressure is the more it will exert pressure on the low pressure area. the surrounding storm will rush towards that low pressure area with an enormous force and crush anything in-between. not to mention the absence of air in that vacuum would suffocate anyone caught in the low pressure zone due to lack of air.

Also it seems weird that a herald will switch his or her order. Unless someone else takes their place and the herald is reduced to being a normal person and they join another order as an ordinary radiant. even though the heralds are not ordinary humans anymore.

No, what i'm saying is that i'm pretty sure the generation of a vacuum is a side effect of the usage of Adhesion, or strengthening the power of vacuum to stop something from being pulled away from the location it is stuck to.

Edit: wait sorry just re-read the above, just read the thing below

57 minutes ago, Slothspren said:

 He creates a vacuum with adhesion, and creating  a vacuum around himself during a highstorm would have caused an implosion of storm around him, he somehow diverted the storm's pressure by creating an opposing pressure which is against the nature of his surges.

What i am saying to this, is in essence that even if it was a vacuum around him (seems unlikely due to the apparent presence of air around him for the people behind him) that it would not collapse if he maintained the usage of adhesion to attract the air that would hit him to the air that was already going around him continuously, which it seems he is doing. so what he is doing is attracting parts of the storm around him to parts further around him continuously (or the other theory that he is doing something with investing the spren around him and we are seeing a precursor to shardplate).

Edited November 12, 2017 by Blacksmithki

[Leyrann]

20 minutes ago, Aminar said:

Kal is wrong about Light Eyes and prejudiced is very much a plot arc. 

Yes, I am aware. However, considering that "marrying with age difference" does not come up again like, anywhere in relation to Kaladin and lighteyes, it is safe to say that it is not a part of the plot arc, as otherwise he'd have remembered those words and either see proof of it (justified or not) or realize that they weren't actually true.

Also, you missed the more important part of my post, where I wasn't referring to writing style, but rather to what we know from the books.

[Salkara]

50 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Or maybe we haven't actually see that many examples... We have Dalinar/Gavilar + Navani, Torol + Ialai, Roshone + Laral (which, for the record, very much is an example of this), Dalinar + Evi (which may or may not be an example) and... yeah, you got any more?

I'm not going to go and find them all, but there are all the couples Adolin was friends with when he was courting Danlan. I think we see some more of them in WoR during some of the date scenes he has with Shallan.

[vividox]

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