[OB] Oathbringer chapters 31 & 32

[Musica she/her]

5 hours ago, Leyrann said:

Well, we do have WoB that Shallan is bisexual, and for all we know, Jasnah might be as well...

This is the first time I hear about it!! For real? Do you have a link to the quote? Does it mean she actually had a crush on Jasnah? Is she even aware/acknowledge her bi-sexuality?

 

Edit- nevermind. Just saw it was already posted.

Maybe it's just me, but the quote seem to me not 100% decisive on the matter..though it would be cool if it was true..

Edited November 11, 2017 by Musica

[Arondell]

1 minute ago, Musica said:

This is the first time I hear about it!! For real? Do you have a link to the quote? Does it mean she actually had a crush on Jasnah? Is she even aware/acknowledge her bi-sexuality?

The link is a couple posts down from that.  From what I read she did not have a crush.  Any more then a guy admiring the physical characteristics of an attractive woman would have a crush.

[Nebty]

1 hour ago, Arondell said:

The link is a couple posts down from that.  From what I read she did not have a crush.  Any more then a guy admiring the physical characteristics of an attractive woman would have a crush.

Yeah, I think it's more this than an actual crush. Shallan deeply respects Jasnah and looks up to her. She may also think she's attractive, but I doubt she harbors any romantic feelings towards her.

[The Invested Beard]

2 hours ago, FollowYourMuse said:

I have also wondered if there is more to Kaladin riding the Storms,  From WoK the Stormfather refers to Men riding the storms...

 

Interesting that even the Stormfather is under the impression that the Oathpact is broken...

[Aminar]

23 minutes ago, Nebty said:

Yeah, I think it's more this than an actual crush. Shallan deeply respects Jasnah and looks up to her. She may also think she's attractive, but I doubt she harbors any romantic feelings towards her.

It would be a pretty extreme age gap. I think even the one between Adolin and her is pretty extreme(although less so because of the general societal time period), tacking another decade or so on there would be creepy.

[Darkness he/him]

"IT IS NOT SOMETHING I CAN DO, SON OF TANAVAST. IF THE WIND STOPS BLOWING, IT IS NOT A WIND. IT IS NOTHING."

Stormfather is basically a more literate Stick, confirmed.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Aminar said:

It would be a pretty extreme age gap. I think even the one between Adolin and her is pretty extreme(although less so because of the general societal time period), tacking another decade or so on there would be creepy.

Adolin and Shallan have a little over 5 years age difference. It is not a small age difference, but it certainly is not extreme. I say it is pretty frequent as far as age difference within couples.

[Agent34]

2 hours ago, The Invested Beard said:

Interesting that even the Stormfather is under the impression that the Oathpact is broken...

He is a cognitive being.

[djammmer]

On November 7, 2017 at 7:34 AM, vividox said:

I just realized the next thing I get to read is some interludes and that has me so incredibly excited.

Although we've seen a couple of the interludes in Sanderson readings.... So still a little longer until new material.

[djammmer]

2 hours ago, Agent34 said:

He is a cognitive being.

Whoa you're right.  Mind blown.  Like why Syl thinks killing elokar is not honorable, but killing parshendi is.  Intention and belief is huge in what reality (the physical realm) is projected as from the cognitive beings.  What those beings believe is hard to change, even when wrong.

[djammmer]

On November 8, 2017 at 7:12 AM, hoser said:

Yes!  And Hoid apparently knows that the Heralds are still around.  Maybe Dalinar can even give the Heralds a call on the Stormfatherphone, watch and discuss old times on Honorvision and start kicking some serious Odious butt. 

What's curious to me, is that some of the heralds have their honor blades (nale) and some do not (whosever Szeth was and is now using.). And Sanderson said the heralds do not have their radiant like powers without their blades... So seems like half of them are roaming Rosar nearly powerless, while the some have powers... Which is especially intriguing given they seem to be having a belief/values schism among themselves.

[StormingTexan he/him]

6 hours ago, djammmer said:

What's curious to me, is that some of the heralds have their honor blades (nale) and some do not (whosever Szeth was and is now using.). And Sanderson said the heralds do not have their radiant like powers without their blades... So seems like half of them are roaming Rosar nearly powerless, while the some have powers... Which is especially intriguing given they seem to be having a belief/values schism among themselves.

Brandon said one Herald went back and got their blade after they broke the Oathpack. I’ve assumed it was Nale. The Shin have the rest of the blades besides the one Szeth lost to Kaladin and then Mr T said something about how they were missing one more that had the power of re-growth but that was probably a lie to make Szeth think he was still Truthless. So yes most of the Heralds are without blades that we know of and wouldn’t have surges as far as what we have been lead to understand.

[Agent34]

26 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

Brandon said one Herald went back and got their blade after they broke the Oathpack. I’ve assumed it was Nale. The Shin have the rest of the blades besides the one Szeth lost to Kaladin and then Mr T said something about how they were missing one more that had the power of re-growth but that was probably a lie to make Szeth think he was still Truthless. So yes most of the Heralds are without blades that we know of and wouldn’t have surges as far as what we have been lead to understand.

Heralds seem to have other abilities so they're not quite powerless, just Surgeless. Taln's hyper-reflexes as an example.

[Aminar]

10 hours ago, maxal said:

Adolin and Shallan have a little over 5 years age difference. It is not a small age difference, but it certainly is not extreme. I say it is pretty frequent as far as age difference within couples.

It's not extreme when they're both in their late 20's. But 17 and 22 is a huge age gap due to how much change there is in brain state between those ages. (Mind you, I think they're more than 5 years apart our time, but Shallan is technically in her later teen's, but I don't remember how different Rosharan years are.)

[king of nowhere]

11 hours ago, Aminar said:

It would be a pretty extreme age gap. I think even the one between Adolin and her is pretty extreme(although less so because of the general societal time period), tacking another decade or so on there would be creepy.

According to the coppermind, Shallan is 17, Jasnah is 34. 17 ages of difference is a large gap, but at least two of my friends had stories over that same age gap when they were shallan's age; one of them lasted one year, the other I don't rememeber. The point is, such stories happen, and they are not that rare, even if it is rare that they last (although the current french president is a good example of one that happened and lasted, and with an even geater age difference).

Especially the pupil/teacher relationship, it was considered fairly common in ancient times, especially in ancient greece where, at least judging by the writings of Plato, a certain degree of homosexual attraction between teacher and student was the norm. Later, society decided that it was exploitative towards the younger party, and therefore wrong, but it was probably an overreaction to some cases of actual exploits and especially to growing concerns for pedophilia. It doesn't help that nowadays, since it is considered so wrong, the only people trying it are those who do not care for what is considered wrong, i.e. they are generally immoral people who are actually trying to exploit the student for sex. So, the bad reputation of pupil/teacher relationships is not undeserved, but it should allow for exceptions.

As a high school teacher, I don't see my students as attractive, even though some of them are very pretty. I see them at their worst: discipline problems, failed tests, lack of interest, and general lack of maturity. The school environment is perfect for showcasing what those young people still miss to become adults. Somebody like Shallan, however, is a different matter. She has intelligence and maturity and passion and dedication (she is also crazy, but she hides that very well), and if I was in Jasnah's position, I can see myself developing attraction for her.

P.S. To avoid misunderstandings, I must point out that even if I had a Shallan-like student she would be off-limits anyway, because she would be my student, for as long as she is my student.

[Aminar]

1 minute ago, king of nowhere said:

According to the coppermind, Shallan is 17, Jasnah is 34. 17 ages of difference is a large gap, but at least two of my friends had stories over that same age gap when they were shallan's age; one of them lasted one year, the other I don't rememeber. The point is, such stories happen, and they are not that rare, even if it is rare that they last (although the current french president is a good example of one that happened and lasted, and with an even geater age difference).

Especially the pupil/teacher relationship, it was considered fairly common in ancient times, especially in ancient greece where, at least judging by the writings of Plato, a certain degree of homosexual attraction between teacher and student was the norm. Later, society decided that it was exploitative towards the younger party, and therefore wrong, but it was probably an overreaction to some cases of actual exploits and especially to growing concerns for pedophilia. It doesn't help that nowadays, since it is considered so wrong, the only people trying it are those who do not care for what is considered wrong, i.e. they are generally immoral people who are actually trying to exploit the student for sex. So, the bad reputation of pupil/teacher relationships is not undeserved, but it should allow for exceptions.

As a high school teacher, I don't see my students as attractive, even though some of them are very pretty. I see them at their worst: discipline problems, failed tests, lack of interest, and general lack of maturity. The school environment is perfect for showcasing what those young people still miss to become adults. Somebody like Shallan, however, is a different matter. She has intelligence and maturity and passion and dedication (she is also crazy, but she hides that very well), and if I was in Jasnah's position, I can see myself developing attraction for her.

P.S. To avoid misunderstandings, I must point out that even if I had a Shallan-like student she would be off-limits anyway, because she would be my student, for as long as she is my student.

Common doesn't make it not exploitative. We've learned better and normalizing that kind of thing in a series read by young readers has a lot of dangers. Jasnah Shallan strikes me as in poor taste.(Especially with things happening in the world at the moment.) Either way I don't see it happening. 

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Aminar said:

It's not extreme when they're both in their late 20's. But 17 and 22 is a huge age gap due to how much change there is in brain state between those ages. (Mind you, I think they're more than 5 years apart our time, but Shallan is technically in her later teen's, but I don't remember how different Rosharan years are.)

Roshar is not modern time: they are adults at 16. They do not have a concept of teenage years. It makes the age difference much less drastic than it would be within our time: a 23 (barely) years old with an almost 18 years old (Shallan is nearing on 18) girl would be odd because it crosses over many phases of life. Shallan would be in High School while Aodlin would have just (or be about to) graduate from College. This is a huge difference in terms of life style and where you are at.

On Roshar things are different. There is no life gap in between Shallan and Adolin. Adolin still lives with his father into the "family house". His responsibilities are more than when we were just 16, but has been a full Shardbearer at that age too. In many ways, Adolin is still being tutored by Dalinar while Shallan is by Jasnah. The story highlights how Shallan's upbringing was lacking and many things she should have learned, she didn't but when it comes down to it, there is zero difference in how both characters are viewed and treated by the other characters. By all means, they are, on Roshar, within exactly the same life phase and as thus, the fact Adolin is a few years older is not really relevant. 

Neither Shallan nor Adolin also comment on it. They don't find it odd and Shallan doesn't find it intimidating Adolin just turned 23 while she is shy of her 18 years old birthday. Their age difference is also similar and probably lesser than the one in between Dalinar and Evi.

[Aminar]

1 minute ago, maxal said:

Roshar is not modern time: they are adults at 16. They do not have a concept of teenage years. It makes the age difference much less drastic than it would be within our time: a 23 (barely) years old with an almost 18 years old (Shallan is nearing on 18) girl would be odd because it crosses over many phases of life. Shallan would be in High School while Aodlin would have just (or be about to) graduate from College. This is a huge difference in terms of life style and where you are at.

On Roshar things are different. There is no life gap in between Shallan and Adolin. Adolin still lives with his father into the "family house". His responsibilities are more than when we were just 16, but has been a full Shardbearer at that age too. In many ways, Adolin is still being tutored by Dalinar while Shallan is by Jasnah. The story highlights how Shallan's upbringing was lacking and many things she should have learned, she didn't but when it comes down to it, there is zero difference in how both characters are viewed and treated by the other characters. By all means, they are, on Roshar, within exactly the same life phase and as thus, the fact Adolin is a few years older is not really relevant. 

Neither Shallan nor Adolin also comment on it. They don't find it odd and Shallan doesn't find it intimidating Adolin just turned 23 while she is shy of her 18 years old birthday. Their age difference is also similar and probably lesser than the one in between Dalinar and Evi.

Science disagrees. There are massive developmental changes in the brain between those ages. Culture doesn't change that. And I'm not saying its inappropriate for the world. Just as wide as we should be seeing for our main characters. Adding a decade to that gap as Jasnah would would be too extreme. 

[Guest]

Just now, Aminar said:

Science disagrees. There are massive developmental changes in the brain between those ages. Culture doesn't change that. And I'm not saying its inappropriate for the world. Just as wide as we should be seeing for our main characters. Adding a decade to that gap as Jasnah would would be too extreme. 

Oh I wasn't referring to Jasnah/Shallan which I do agree is a huge gap, but in between Adolin/Shallan, the gap is much lesser. Brain arrive to maturity at the age of 25 which means Adolin too is not done "growing" and "maturing". Within our world, the most important difference in between late teens and early twenties is essentially life style. It is also why it isn't rare to late teens and early twenties work out just fine when both member are having the same life style: say neither went to College and started working young.

[Asharielle she/her]

18 hours ago, Starla said:

@Asharielle Welcome! I also lurked for a long time before gathering up the nerve to post. Eventually my love for the books and need to talk about them exceeded my shyness, and now I can't shut up. 

I’ve continued to ponder the Kaladin/Stormfather interactions, and I think I’ve settled on them being mental projections by the Stormfather. Rereading the highstorm vision in the chasm scene convinced me, because Kaladin and Shallan both had a different vision, and Kaladin stood up and moved around during his. If he was seeing into Shadesmar, I think he would have fallen in a sea of beads or described the scene differently.

Taking into account that the stormfather can project visions to Dalinar and anyone else of his choice, and spren in shardblade form can speak telepathically with their radiant, there must be some sort of mental connection between spren and human where visual and auditory communication can happen.

There are also Kaladin’s highstorm dreams, which seem to be something different. He actually saw Szeth murder someone during the dream, and felt that Szeth could sense his presence. That sounds a bit like an out of body experience. Kaladin became lucid and realized he was dreaming while his body was back on the Shattered Plains, and his consciousness was traveling with the storm in real time. I don't believe this has happened to anyone else in the story. I assume it is Syl's connection with Stormfather that gives him this unusual access to the storm.

I am fascinated by these interactions and hope we’ll get some answers when the Stormfather projects his visions to others.

@StarlaHello and thank you! I have been on the verge of joining up to post a few times but I knew it was definitely going to happen after getting into these discussions on the new chapters. 

I don't know why I had completely dismissed the fact that the Storm Father can give visions! It is such a good point! I definitely think you are right, that and like you said, Kaladin not falling into a sea of beads in the chasms and Shallan seeing something else makes it pretty convincing that it's a vision/the Storm Father's creation. 

Man, these books turn me gooey inside with how amazing they are and the amount of depth to them. Can. Not. Wait. For. Tuesday. Squeek. 

[hoser he/him]

Wait, what? Adolin is too old for Shallan?  In my experience, we "boys" are 2-3 years less mature than girls of comparable age.  Then we never grow up.  I think Shallan is too mature for Adolin if he is only 5 years older!

[Guest]

1 hour ago, hoser said:

Wait, what? Adolin is too old for Shallan?  In my experience, we "boys" are 2-3 years less mature than girls of comparable age.  Then we never grow up.  I think Shallan is too mature for Adolin if he is only 5 years older!

Nobody in book thinks Adolin is too old for Shallan including Shallan and Adolin themselves. People are just commenting because if it were real-life, it'd be odd because out of Collegue with High School student is kind of bizarre. Alethkar is however not the real world, so those considerations don't really apply.

[Aminar]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

Nobody in book thinks Adolin is too old for Shallan including Shallan and Adolin themselves. People are just commenting because if it were real-life, it'd be odd because out of Collegue with High School student is kind of bizarre. Alethkar is however not the real world, so those considerations don't really apply.

Yeah. Pretty much. But using it to explain why Shallan Jasnah is ooky. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Aminar said:

Yeah. Pretty much. But using it to explain why Shallan Jasnah is ooky. 

Oh but I do agree about Shallan and Jasnah...

[king of nowhere]

2 hours ago, hoser said:

Wait, what? Adolin is too old for Shallan?  In my experience, we "boys" are 2-3 years less mature than girls of comparable age.  Then we never grow up.  I think Shallan is too mature for Adolin if he is only 5 years older!

Let me disagree on that. During high school years, girls are generally more mature than boys of equal age. At reaching adulthood, well, I've seen cool responsible men and women, and I've seen dumb irresponsible men and women. I don't know if there is a statistically significant difference - I don't think anyone can define "maturity" well enough for it to be measured - but even if there was, it becomes irrelevant when discussing individual cases.

Now, in the case we are discussing, both shallan and adolin are young people who have been burdened by terrible responsibilities. both have answered the call with outstanding performance, and both are cracking under the stress. I would not say there is any maturity issue between them. There is the issue of shallan's crazyness, which is still a secret for adolin - and indeed, all other characters.I have no idea how that will work out, will depend mostly on how shallan can cope - I doubt they have any pshycologist capable of helping her on roshar