Long Game 16: The Empty Throne Part 2: The Catacombs

[Amanuensis]

If I were a traitor, I'd want to hang on to the bodysnatches as much as possible, for use on critical lynches - think MR10, where the lack of reveals after death gave the village a lot of problems. IMO, alignment is much more valuable info than role for the village. Hence why I think forcing as many snatches as possible on lower value targets with known alignment - if the village kill roles hold their fire for a few cycles (please!) - is useful. From this point of view, it's certainly not a cop-based strategy as it's intended to ensure public information from the lynch.

 

Good point. I had not even considered them snatching up the lynch. Thought it was more like the Janitor role in ToS, hence why I asked if the Traitors would get the information when we would not (Janitor can see the role because they physically remove & presumably examine the corpse themselves).

 

Something I just noticed while reading the rules again; Serial Killers vote will not count if they decide to kill someone during the Day Turn. So my plan to make it harder for eliminators to hide makes it easier for the SK to, as they can just disappear among all the people who do not vote. That being said, I would rather the SK be able to hide for awhile rather than the Traitors; the SK (assuming there is one) is just a single player. Eliminating him only takes one lynch or assassination attempt. Eliminating the Traitors will take several, so they need to be our main priority, similar to how the Diagrammists should have been in MR10.

[Kynedath]

Kynedath stood in the street, stunned. Old man Durbin was right. He didn't have the ability to have killed his brother. Maybe he was an epic? No. Not crazy enough. Maybe he had connections in Persepolis? Maybe. That still left his motives unknown. Why had Vivenna even told him that old man Duribin was behind the death of his brother?

 

Rubbing the small lump on his head, Drake turned to leave. But he couldn't go home yet, he still needed to prove that he was strong enough. He still needed to protect his house. He still needed to protect his wife. Apparently, he couldn't do that and give his brother retribution at the same time. So instead of turning to walk home, he turned to the understreets. There he would prove that he could protect his house.

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 

*Sigh* Adavantos, Thanks for going along with it, but why do you insist on killing me to make various points? Well, at least this time you just killed me in words. To be honest, I don't really know what to think in the whole "bodysnatching" deal. What you say about poke votes makes a bit of sense, so I did retract my vote on you, but then again, poke voting is one of the ways that people can gather more information. Especially in the early game, it forms opinions and creates suspicions, something that we need if we are going to find the eliminators. I think that I can see why Meta was attacking Mark earlier. Meta's explanation of letting them hang themselves made it clearer. I do still think that it was enthusiastic, being there was like four paragraphs as to why Mark was suspicious. All good points, but I think that they were blown up. Meta and Mark have both done suspicious things, and I want to keep an eye on them, but more so Mark.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Kynedath

[Amanuensis]

Kynedath stood in the street, stunned. Old man Durbin was right. He didn't have the ability to have killed his brother. Maybe he was an epic? No. Not crazy enough. Maybe he had connections in Persepolis? Maybe. That still left his motives unknown. Why had Vivenna even told him that old man Duribin was behind the death of his brother?

 

Rubbing the small lump on his head, Drake turned to leave. But he couldn't go home yet, he still needed to prove that he was strong enough. He still needed to protect his house. He still needed to protect his wife. Apparently, he couldn't do that and give his brother retribution at the same time. So instead of turning to walk home, he turned to the understreets. There he would prove that he could protect his house.

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 

*Sigh* Adavantos, Thanks for going along with it, but why do you insist on killing me to make various points? Well, at least this time you just killed me in words. To be honest, I don't really know what to think in the whole "bodysnatching" deal. What you say about poke votes makes a bit of sense, so I did retract my vote on you, but then again, poke voting is one of the ways that people can gather more information. Especially in the early game, it forms opinions and creates suspicions, something that we need if we are going to find the eliminators. I think that I can see why Meta was attacking Mark earlier. Meta's explanation of letting them hang themselves made it clearer. I do still think that it was enthusiastic, being there was like four paragraphs as to why Mark was suspicious. All good points, but I think that they were blown up. Meta and Mark have both done suspicious things, and I want to keep an eye on them, but more so Mark.

 

I'm not trying to say that people shouldn't poke vote, or even pursue their own suspicious before the majority. Just that unless it directly affects the lynch by the end of the Day Turn they should remove their vote it to make it harder for the Traitors to hide. As for bodysnatching how the Traitors decide to do it is entirely up to them, and all we can really do is speculate for now and react when the time comes. I am just trying to be proactive in discussing it, since it was a thought that crossed my mind while reading the rules / I don't really have much to analyze quite yet. I do, however, think Meta is being a bit more aggressive than usual. Then again I haven't really played with him often enough to truly know if it's out of character. Would appreciate it if anyone more familiar with him can weigh in on the matter, as it seems the only people who have commented on it (Mark, Elbereth and yourself) are very new and haven't played with him yet (I don't think).

Edited January 19, 2016 by Adavantos

[Kynedath]

I'm not trying to say that people shouldn't poke vote, or even pursue their own suspicious before the majority. Just that unless it directly affects the lynch by the end of the Day Turn they should remove their vote it to make it harder for the Traitors to hide. As for bodysnatching how the Traitors decide to do it is entirely up to them, and all we can really do is speculate for now and react when the time comes. I am just trying to be proactive in discussing it, since it was a thought that crossed my mind while reading the rules / I don't really have much to analyze quite yet. I do, however, think Meta is being a bit more aggressive than usual. Then again I haven't really played with him often enough to truly know if it's out of character. Would appreciate it if anyone more familiar with him can weigh in on the matter, as it seems the only people who have commented on it (Mark, Elbereth and yourself) are very new and haven't played with him yet (I don't think).

Alright, thanks. That makes a whole lot more sense to me now.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Kynedath

[Elkanah]

I don't have a lot of time right now, but I'd like to comment on Meta's behavior. While I don't intend to defend him or say that I trust him, I have played a game with him before. In QF11, he used several bold accusations to gather info. Usually they were wrong (but you'd expect villagers to be wrong) until he pegged Lopen. In the late game he switched to manipulation via pm completely fooling me. So my point is this kind of accusation isn't very out of character for him.

Additionally, I like this kind of purging process. Kynedath coming after me for inactivity and Lopen's defenses were a big reason I felt I could trust them in MR10. Rather than placing a vote and saying 'are you active?' It helps to have something to defend against.

*steps off of soap box*

[Kipper]

I think quite a few people are having a misconception about the Bodysnatch. The reason for Bodysnatching the Eliminator kills isn't so the Eliminators hide the role from the village, it's so the village doesn't find out who the Eliminators are. The idea is really quite simple. When, on N1, the Eliminators attack someone, that person is not going to have been previously targeted by a large number of other people. Thus, if they do not Bodysnatch the kill on the next day, the Mortician is surely going to examine the body and find out who killed it. Sure, they could Bodysnatch lynches, but I see it as far more likely that they'd Bodysnatxh their own kills during the next day to avoid being found out by the Mortician.

[Araris Valerian]

Well, basically phatt made a decision in plain sight of everyone that is based on pretty arbitrary reasoning, as far as I could tell. So if he knows something we all don't then I think that kind of implies that he is an eliminator.

 

What about that do you not like?

[Amanuensis]

I think quite a few people are having a misconception about the Bodysnatch. The reason for Bodysnatching the Eliminator kills isn't so the Eliminators hide the role from the village, it's so the village doesn't find out who the Eliminators are. The idea is really quite simple. When, on N1, the Eliminators attack someone, that person is not going to have been previously targeted by a large number of other people. Thus, if they do not Bodysnatch the kill on the next day, the Mortician is surely going to examine the body and find out who killed it. Sure, they could Bodysnatch lynches, but I see it as far more likely that they'd Bodysnatxh their own kills during the next day to avoid being found out by the Mortician.

 

Right. This is why I thought about suggesting we take a minimalist approach at first, so that it forces them to use their Bodysnatch earlier on and on their targets so that when they finally run out of them it should still be easy to pick how who made the kill. It's a viable path to take, if we agree it's ideal. Though I do think there are some roles out there where it's better they use their ability regardless.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Adavantos

[STINK]

Is there a vote tally?

[Hellscythe]

I'll drop a vote on Shallan, until they show up. Actually considering the last LG, I probably shouldn't do that... Shallan. Instead, I'll vote for STINK.

 

Well, basically phatt made a decision in plain sight of everyone that is based on pretty arbitrary reasoning, as far as I could tell. So if he knows something we all don't then I think that kind of implies that he is an eliminator.

 

What about that do you not like?

 

In my opinion, Phattemer was simply speaking his mind. He could've edited, or erased his entire first half of the post. The last time he voted for Shallan(LG) Wilson seconded his vote and Shallan was swing lynched within a few hours. He's just trying to put down a poke vote and I see nothing wrong with that. Although your response makes me less suspicious of you, Araris.

[Amanuensis]

Is there a vote tally?

 

There would be if you made one.
 

(1) Hellscythe: Elkanah (1), Clanky (1), 
(1) Stink: phattmer (1),
(1) Mailliw: Twelfth (1),
(2) Mark: Meta (1), Kipper (1),
(1) Meta: Mark (1), Elbereth (1),
(0) Adavantos: Kynedath (1),
(1) phattmer: Araris (1),
(1) Araris: Hellscythe (1),

Edited January 19, 2016 by Adavantos

[Kynedath]

 

 

 

There would be if you made one.

 

(1) Hellscythe: Elkanah (1), Clanky (1), 

(1) Stink: phattmer (1),

(1) Mailliw: Twelfth (1),

(2) Mark: Meta (1), Kipper (1),

(1) Meta: Mark (1), Elbereth (1),

(0) Adavantos: Kynedath (1),

(1) phattmer: Araris (1),

(1) Araris: Hellscythe (1),

 

Both Mark and Elbereth are voting for Meta right now, so he would have two votes on him, not the one you have him down for.

Also, Hellscythe devoted Araris.

[Hellscythe]

Meta, you're being kind of harsh on someone who's only played one game so far. He's saying fairly normal things, and you're tying him in knots for it. Why him? There are plenty of other people who've said similar things.

I didn't post earlier because I wanted to wait until I could talk calmly. I am not fond of dying.

I don't like this post at all Elbereth. Specifically the second paragraph strikes me as an evil read or an important town role read.

 

Vote Tally (fixed)

(1) Hellscythe: Clanky 

(1) Stink: phattmer 

(1) Mailliw: Twelfth 

(2) Mark: Meta, Kipper

(2) Meta: Mark, Elbereth

(1) phattmer: Araris 

(1) Elbereth: Hellscythe 

 

Edit: Dear Rookies, don't pick me. It's not worth it.

        Dear Snitches, give me everyone's alignment please.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Hellscythe

[Metacognition]

I don't have a lot of time right now, so I'll just address a few things I wanted to before the end of the turn (which also means, I won't be able to do any RP with this post ): 

 

Adavantos: 2 posts, responds to Twei, asks Alvron questions, provides tips based off clarifications, townread.

twelfthrootoftwo: 1 post, RP, votes for Mailliw, asks group question, townread.

 

Deathclutch: no posts, no presence, noread.

Shallan: no posts, no presence, noread.

Burnt Spaghetti: no posts, no presence, noread.

OrlokTsubodai: no posts, no presence, noread.

 

Clanky: 1 post, RP, responds to Twei, noread.

Araris Valerian: 1 post, votes for phatt, confronts Stink, noread.

Kynedath: 1 post, RP, votes for Adavantos, noread.

IrulelikeSTINK: 2 posts, no substance, noread.

Kipper: 2 posts, votes for Mark, noread.

phattemer: 1 post, no substance, noread.

Hellscythe: 1 post, no substance, noread.

Elkanah: 1 post, no substance, noread.

Mark IV: 4 posts, confrontation with Meta, noread.

 

Mailliw73: no posts, presence on forums, mafiaread.

Elbereth: no posts, presence on forums, mafiaread.

TheMightyLopen: no posts, presence on forums, mafiaread.

 

Metacognition: 3 posts, RP, confrontation with Mark, Kyn, mafiaread.

 

 

 

 

I'm touched, Ada. I was the only person at the time that warranted a "mafia read" that had posted. It warms my heart.

Of course, you're going to have to back that up with something now. You can't just slide something like that in at the end of your post and then not elaborate. You think I'm a Traitor? Fine, but I expect some explanation for it. If you don't have any reason, I'd suspect you of adding me there as a subtle way to try to influence people. So why do you think I'm a Traitor?

 

Meta, you're being kind of harsh on someone who's only played one game so far. He's saying fairly normal things, and you're tying him in knots for it. Why him? There are plenty of other people who've said similar things.

I didn't post earlier because I wanted to wait until I could talk calmly. I am not fond of dying.

 

Is that sympathy? For what reason? Is a newer player not just as capable as someone that has been here for awhile? So it would've been fine if I had done it to someone else? There's a lot wrong with that kind of reasoning, IMO. By not coddling Mark, I'm being more respectful of him, saying that I think he can hold his own, than people who want to handle him with kid gloves at first.

 

Unless you have another reason for playing the newbie card for him? Possible fear of losing a teammate?

 

I found something that I found to be suspicious and poked at it. That isn't tying someone in knots. Why him? Because he was the one that said the thing that I found suspicious; not someone else. What he's been saying are platitudes;, things that don't really help one way or the other; which I would find suspicious from anyone. 

 

---

 

As far as the idea of removing poke votes, it's a good plan for the early cycles here. After cycle 2-3 though, I don't think it'll be very effective. There are too many roles that we want to be active and doing their things for us to be pretty sure of anything after a few cycles. At that point, we'll be just as likely to wind up lynching our own roles as we are likely to find a Traitor. 

 

And all that comes with the caveat that we don't know Alv's role distribution. He very well could have decided not to put in any of the Bodysnatchers and Morticians after all and just watch us try to play around something that doesn't exist. I don't remember reading anywhere that he said that every role was going to be included and we shouldn't make that assumption. 

 

But since I do agree with the idea of trying to force any possible Bodysnatchers to have to use their abilities early, Marr.

 

Yes, I'm aware that puts me up for the vote. 

Edited January 19, 2016 by Metacognition

[STINK]

Marr.

[Amanuensis]

I'm touched, Ada. I was the only person at the time that warranted a "mafia read" that had posted. It warms my heart.

Of course, you're going to have to back that up with something now. You can't just slide something like that in at the end of your post and then not elaborate. You think I'm a Traitor? Fine, but I expect some explanation for it. If you don't have any reason, I'd suspect you of adding me there as a subtle way to try to influence people. So why do you think I'm a Traitor?

 

I addressed it in this post here.

 

I'm not trying to say that people shouldn't poke vote, or even pursue their own suspicious before the majority. Just that unless it directly affects the lynch by the end of the Day Turn they should remove their vote it to make it harder for the Traitors to hide. As for bodysnatching how the Traitors decide to do it is entirely up to them, and all we can really do is speculate for now and react when the time comes. I am just trying to be proactive in discussing it, since it was a thought that crossed my mind while reading the rules / I don't really have much to analyze quite yet. I do, however, think Meta is being a bit more aggressive than usual. Then again I haven't really played with him often enough to truly know if it's out of character. Would appreciate it if anyone more familiar with him can weigh in on the matter, as it seems the only people who have commented on it (Mark, Elbereth and yourself) are very new and haven't played with him yet (I don't think).

 

It's not that I think you're a traitor, necessarily. It's just that something seemed off to me that might suggest it.

[Hellscythe]

Marr, it's Day 1. You have better reasons already? Cause I'd love to hear them. 

Personally I think even gut is a better reason to vote for someone rather than RP. You jumped on MarkIV fairly quick for him questioning why people would vote due to RP. I would've probably questioned the validity of those votes had it been my second game as well.

 

I don't know what to make of Stink's obvious Traitor bandwagon without reasoning. It seems a little too stupid. No offense to you Stink. I'm thinking it's because you're a Regular Crewmember.

[twelfthrootoftwo]

In the interests of minimising votes, Mailliw.

[Mark IV]

Marr.

STINK, could I be graced with a plausible explanation before drawing the worst conclusion?

[Alvron]

One hour remains.

[Elbereth]

I'm not trying to say that people shouldn't poke vote, or even pursue their own suspicious before the majority. Just that unless it directly affects the lynch by the end of the Day Turn they should remove their vote it to make it harder for the Traitors to hide. As for bodysnatching how the Traitors decide to do it is entirely up to them, and all we can really do is speculate for now and react when the time comes. I am just trying to be proactive in discussing it, since it was a thought that crossed my mind while reading the rules / I don't really have much to analyze quite yet. I do, however, think Meta is being a bit more aggressive than usual. Then again I haven't really played with him often enough to truly know if it's out of character. Would appreciate it if anyone more familiar with him can weigh in on the matter, as it seems the only people who have commented on it (Mark, Elbereth and yourself) are very new and haven't played with him yet (I don't think).

While I haven't technically played a game with him, I did see a lot of Meta's playstyle in QF11, which I helped GM. I don't think he's being particularly aggressive, but it did surprise me that it happened so fast.

  

I don't like this post at all Elbereth. Specifically the second paragraph strikes me as an evil read or an important town role read.

My second paragraph makes you think I'm evil? You mean this one?

Meta, you're being kind of harsh on someone who's only played one game so far. He's saying fairly normal things, and you're tying him in knots for it. Why him? There are plenty of other people who've said similar things.

I didn't post earlier because I wanted to wait until I could talk calmly. I am not fond of dying.

I'm uncertain how you could have gotten to either guess (that I'm evil or an important Villager) from that. Seriously, why do you think that?

  

Is that sympathy? For what reason? Is a newer player not just as capable as someone that has been here for awhile? So it would've been fine if I had done it to someone else? There's a lot wrong with that kind of reasoning, IMO. By not coddling Mark, I'm being more respectful of him, saying that I think he can hold his own, than people who want to handle him with kid gloves at first.

 

Unless you have another reason for playing the newbie card for him? Possible fear of losing a teammate?

 

I found something that I found to be suspicious and poked at it. That isn't tying someone in knots. Why him? Because he was the one that said the thing that I found suspicious; not someone else. What he's been saying are platitudes;, things that don't really help one way or the other; which I would find suspicious from anyone. 

Yes, it's sympathy. Not because he's new, really, but because he's had the misfortune to go up against you in his first game with you. That deserves sympathy from anyone.

Although I guess I'm kind of setting myself up for the same thing... I guess I didn't think this through properly. As usual.

And the reason I'm saying targeting someone else might have been better is precisely because you're experienced. In general, you know what's normal for people and what's not. But instead, you picked someone relatively unknown, which kind of wastes that useful aspect. Obviously, if you did that all the time you wouldn't ever catch a new suspicious player. But even so, I feel like new players should be given a chance until they accrue a little bit more suspicion than recurring players.

With that said, I'd rather not lose you on the first cycle, regardless of alignment, because you are very active, which is good. So Meta.

[Hellscythe]

I'm uncertain how you could have gotten to either guess (that I'm evil or an important Villager) from that. Seriously, why do you think that?

Your certain level of "caution" makes me think that.

"wanted to wait until I could talk calmly" seems to me like just an improvised excuse.

[Amanuensis]

Five minutes to retract votes...

[Mailliw73]

Five minutes to retract votes...

Adavantos posted only one line?! He must be evil!!! Adavantos. Adavantos. Just kidding,  

[Araris Valerian]

phatt