eveorjoy

Have some faith in the boy. He did fight two shardbearers and win with damaged shardplate. Imagine when he is able to go gliding around.

If I remember correctly, he did hope to have success with every girl he courted in WoK. It already a big improvement for him to take a look at himself after meeting Shallan and realize the problem with his past relationships might lie with him. He didn't start to feel that way until after he got to know Shallan. So she he is trying to improve himself for her and that makes him a better person. They likely would have a good chance is not for the fact that he is going to be exiled for killing Sadea. But after he revives his blade and becomes and Edgedancer, and Shallan deals with her mountain of issues, everything will be just fine. Fair enough.

Adolin has said several times he wants to make it work with Shallan to her and others. He isn't just saying oh well if it doesn't work out it's not my fault like he has with other relationships. Shallan's desire to be better sadly takes her in the wrong direction, that will be a problem no matter who she with. Still she has said many times publicly and privately that she wants it to work with Adolin. I love the chasm scenes, but the character who changed and grew in that sequence is Kaladin. For Shallan it was more of a proving trial. She is the one who saved Kaladin. I think she discovered Kaladin was more than a grimace, but she was still thinking of getting back to Adolin during the whole time. Yes, Kaladin grew an attraction to Shallan in the chasm, one he will never admit to anyone else, not even Syl, but I don't think the experience developed the same feelings for Kaladin in Shallan.

Cool a Shallan fanboy. Shallan needs more fans. I like Shallan and want her to be happy even if she doesn't end up with the new highprince or brightlord brooding eyes. I'm not so sure she is genuine with Kal, because she is not genuine with herself. I will acquiesce except for Pattern, Kaladin is the character she has shown the most of her truth self to. I'm not dead set against them ending up together in the end. If Brandon can make it work, great. I just have doubts they are the best match. I did enjoy their bantering. Kal and Shallan remind me of Beatrice and Benedick from Shakespeare's "Much a Do About Nothing." However, even though Beatrice and Benedick end up together in that play, I never bought their romance, and disliked the two more as a couple. I like her better with Adolin because both of them make the other one want to be a better person and they do work well together. Maybe she will grow to have this kind of relationship with Kaladin as they work together as KR, but Adolin has to be out of Urithru before either would pursue anything serious. They might flirt, but I don't think either would intentionally try to start anything as things are now. They both care for Adolin too much. What will determine if Shallan and Kaladin can make it work is when and how she finds out about Heleran. If she finds out before they start a relationship and from Kal, then maybe they might make it. However, for the sake of conflict and drama, I think Brandon won't unleash the Heleran bomb until the worst possible time. Still, if someone killed the brother I loved and idolized, even if I could understand why he did it, I can't imagine having an intimate relationship with that person. Heleran's death is a hard thing to accept for Shallan, even if Kaladin tells her the right way. I didn't think Jasnah had a romantic interest in the ardent who gave her that book. My feeling was she felt the most accepted by the devotarie and she liked its philosophy. But even if she already had a romance that does not preclude her having another one. I started this thread because I am tired of all the Shalladin hate. Four times in the "Scenes that you do not want to see in OB" thread people say they don't want to see Kaladin and Shallan get to together and that is not the only place I have read such irritation with the idea. Even though I prefer Adolin and Shallan together, I don't want people to get upset if Brandon decides to move Kaladin and Shallan closer. I agree with you. Trust Brandon and it will be awesome even if they all end up single in the end. I just wanted to point out you can have Shallan in relationships at different time with both Kalladin and Adolin without it being the dreaded love triangle. Brandon will make it work and it will be as awesome as Lift.

@Starla I am with you. Kaladin is not only my favorite SA character, he is my favorite fictional character not written in one of my stories. I am a big Kaladin fan girl. It surprises me how, even though this is Dalinar's book, Kaladin's parts are still my favorites. This was true of WoR as well. It was Shallan's book and I love the girl, but Kaladin is the one I enjoyed reading about the most. So my preference for Adolin and Shallan over Kaladin and Shallan is not because I don't care about his feelings. I do. I want him to be happy. And I would not mind if he found happiness with Shallan. It's not my preference, but I wouldn't mind it. It is one of the reasons I started this thread. I don't care for the horror at their pairing. I said I didn't mind Shallan's problems ruining a romantic relationship with Kaladin because I know their relationship is doomed and it is our dear brightlord brooding eyes who doomed it when he didn't tell Shallan he killed her brother. Now I not saying he should have told her before this. The chasms were not the right time and too much has happened since the end of the world for Kaladin to sit down with Shallan and confess. But if he does consider pursuing her, once Adolin is exiled, then he is going to need to tell her right away. If he tells her, they might make it. I think Kaladin could handle her problems. Ironically, Kaladin might be the most stable radiant by the end of OB. Though I think Kaladin could do better than Shallan for all the reasons you said. I kind of like the idea of Jasnah with Kaladin. Yes, she is ten to fifteen years older than him, but Kal is very mature for his age. My guess is Adolin will be off reviving his shardblade and dealing with his issues. Kaladin and Shallan will be drawn together and almost start a relationship. Then someone will tell Shallan it was Kaladin who killed Heleran. She will confront Kaladin and he will admit what he did. Shallan will feel betrayed that he didn't tell her sooner and that will be the end of their relationship. Kal will be sad, but he will endure it, because he is awesome. And then he will start dating Jasnah and all will be better. Okay maybe not Jasnah. He will end up with May Aladar. Regardless, I will be quite depressed if Kaladin dies at the end of book five and never finds love. I'd accept it, but I would still be sad. Kal deserves some happiness. I also think Adolin deserves happiness with Shallan and in general. Even if he doesn't revive his shardblade, I hope he stays relevant in the story.

They are a great couple. That's why I don't want Shallan's hang ups to ruin them. Neither of them are ready for a permanent relationship now. So they take a break and she destroys another relationship on her path to self-discovery and then she gets back with Adolin. It doesn't have to be with Kaladin, though Brandon seems to be seeding that. I think Kaladin and Shallan could be great friends without dating each other. But their doomed relationship could be useful to both of their characters. I don't care for the suggestion that the woman is the object in this three way relationship. But I will put that to the side. Kaladin is my favorite character and, sorry Adolin fans, but I'd rather Adolin die before Kaladin. I think Kaladin is much more engaging character. Adolin is currently only interesting in his relationships. He existed in book one as a foil to Dalinar(sadly my least favorite part of WoK, sorry.) If I remember correctly, people didn't like Adolin very much until WoR. In book two he became interesting as he interacted with Shallan and grew a bromance with Kaladin. Adolin has the potential to be an interesting character in his own right, after killing Sadeas. Finally, he has an issue to deal with that does not involve another character. What he did will affect everyone, but it is his burden alone to bare. And he has snapped because of it, which is why he will revive his blade and become an Edgedancer. Yay! But I don't think more people like Adolin over Kaladin. I just thing more people like Shallan with Adolin over Shallan with Kaladin, me included. You are a brave one. Here have a shardshield. I think Shallan could fit with Kaladin, but I think she fits better with Adolin. I agree Shallan and Adolin will likely break up, but after both characters grow a bit I think they will come back together; as long as Shallan is not with Kaladin. I think Kaladin killing Heleran made it impossible for them to be together. I will explain after your next quote. Shallan understood that Amaram was likely defending himself when he "killed" Heleran and she still thought of him as a bastard even before Kaladin told her his story. Shallan might understand Kaladin's need to kill her brother, but it does not change the fact that the blood of the brother everyone in her family admired, including Shallan, is on Kaladin's hands. Could she over come that? Maybe, if Kaladin had admitted it to her as soon as he realized the truth. Brandon left a bomb in Kaladin and Shallan's relationship by having Kaladin keep his mouth shut. It's not just that Kaladin killed her brother. It is also that he didn't admit to it. When she finds out from anyone other than Kaladin that is going to put a huge wedge between them and kill any flirting with a relationship. As for how Adolin killed Sadeas, Shallan would be a hypocrite if she turned on Adolin for that act. He was defending Dalinar, the Knight's Radiant, and Urithru in that moment of rage. Was it a good idea? No, but it is understandable. Sadeas promised to bring Dalinar down and take everything he had from him. Had Sadeas succeeded you think the KR and Urithru would have survived? Adolin knew he would do it so he removed the problem. Shallan did the same when she killed her father. He father had killed her stepmom and would kill her brothers in time. They both murdered to defend others. It's not like Jasnah's situation. Jasnah searched for criminals to kill. Adolin was minding his own business and Sadeas pushed him over the edge with a legitimate threat. No, Shallan won't be mad at Adolin for killing Sadeas. The only thing that will upset her about that event is how it will lead to the end of their engagement. But after some time and some blade revival (it could happen. I believe.) Adolin will return to Urithru as a KR and resume the relationship. Shallan was the only other proto-radiant Jasnah knew. She knew they needed numbers, so after Shallan begged for forgiveness and proved she would follow Jasnah, helping the girl made sense. Did she really think the causal would end in a marriage? I don't know. However, she had allowed her own brother to marry someone she considered assassinating, so marrying her cousin to someone with a questionable moral fiber is nothing new. Jasnah is a pragmatist. She needed the girl and so tied her to her family in the easiest way.

That is the more correct name, but I heard it called "thinking raptor" first.

My new favorite esoteric "thinking raptor" meme.

Give me a moment to put on my shardplate. Now before you Shaolin shippers light your torches and raise your pitchforks, I am one of you. I want Shallan to end up with Adolin in the end. But what about my title.? Well, I think the idea of a Kaladin and Shallan pairing is getting an unnatural amount of hate. In fact, if there are any Shalladin fans out there, I am sorry your ship is being so thoroughly wrecked by this odium toward this pairing. (Sorry I had to.) Kaladin and Shallan will not work in the end. Besides the issues that they have little in common, don't speak the same social language at times, and have spren who are as diametrical as two spren can be, Kaladin killed her brother. Even if Shallan understands and forgives, I don't think she could be in an intimate relationship with someone who killed Heleran. So if the two begin dating their relationship is doomed. However, I don't hear this as the reason people are complaining about the pairing. "NO LOVE TRIANGLES!" is the cry. Why? Because it is a tired trope, you say. I don't think that is your problem. What if the triangle was between Adolin, Shallan, and Mraize? Some might still cry no love triangles, but I don't think the call would be as loud. I think the problem isn't the dreaded "love triangle" as much as it is we are all avid readers and are tired of seeing the main hero end up with the main heroine. It would be refreshing to see a man and woman who were central characters just remain friends. I get this desire. I am writing a whole series with the goal of having the main hero and heroine only be friends. Still, this is an expectation less avid readers do often have for heroes and heroines. Consider all the fans who were disappointed Harry Potter did not end up with Hermione Granger. I was happy to see Ron ended up with Hermione (Ron from the books at least) and would have hated to see her end up with Harry. But for many, the Harry Potter series was their first obsession, so naturally, they imagined the great love story of Harry and Hermione. I doubt SA can be a gateway series for many because of the learning curve that is WoK. Therefore a majority of SA fans have seen the hero and heroine end up together in a plethora of stories, and we are tired of the trope as much as love triangles. You might be tired of it, but that does not make it a bad thing Brandon should not do. Shalladin would help Shaolin become a lasting relationship. That might sound like an odd statement, but it is true. I think we worry about Shalladin because Kal is a great guy and why would Shallan leave him once they were together. Further, it would destroy the budding bromance between Kaladin and Adolin. However, I don't think either of these fears would come to pass if Shallan and Kaladin flirted for a few chapters to half a book and it would bring great conflict, but not be a true love triangle, at least not in the classic sense. I have already established why Kaladin and Shallan are doomed as a couple, so I am not going to go over that again. However, I don't think Kaladin and Shallan flirting will harm his friendship with Adolin at all. I don't think Kal would pursue a relationship with Shallan until Adolin is out of the picture because of the friendship (and she's lighteyed, or that is what Kaladin will tell himself until Adolin is exiled). Right now Shaolin is also a doomed relationship but not forever. Both Adolin and Shallan are really messed up people. I don't think either could have a healthy relationship right now until they address their issues. And the issue that will temporarily break them up is Adolin killing Sadeas. Brandon has hinted as much in chapter 13 of Oathbringer. Besides the fact that Shallan saying neither of them will mess this up sounds like famous last words, the last topic of the chapter is Adolin's hidden crime. Putting the ideas of them breaking up and the killing of Sadeas together suggests this is how their relationship will end, but not forever. Now I don't think Shallan is going to break up with Adolin when she finds out what he did. In a twisted way that might even bring them closer to together. No, I think this will break them up because Adolin is going to be exiled from Urithru and likely Alethkar as well and that will be the end of the engagement. Some would argue Adolin will get away with it, but the way the story is structured and the hints Brandon is dropping point to Adolin needing to face some consequences for his actions. Still, that is a debate for another thread. Just go with me on the fact murder of Sadeas will push Adolin away from Shallan for a time. After that happens Kaladin and Shallan may consider a relationship with each other. They might look past their different backgrounds and go for it because they are both KR so why not give it a try. At that point, it will not be a true love triangle. Adolin and Shallan will be over with, and Adolin will be somewhere out in Roshar reviving his blade or something. Still, Shallan is such a metal mess that her time with Kaladin will not go well even before she learns he killed Heleran. She is going to need to face her issues, and this will damage the relationship she is in no matter whom she is with at the time. I'd much rather have her self-discovery ruin Shalladin than Shaodin. Let her go through this learning period with Kaladin, have them both part as better people, and hopefully still friends even after she learns the truth. Then Shallan will hopefully be ready for a stable relationship. After this happens, I hope Adolin will return to Urithru as an Edgedancer with his a restored blade (yes he would make a great Edgedancer, shut up) and he will reestablish his relationship with Shallan. Then they would be on equal footing as KR and more mature people. Thus, the relationship will last the rest of their lives. As for Kal, he will be happy for them because he knows "they fit" and he will have moved on, but hopefully remain their friend. I'm likely wrong about all of this, but it could work. So please don't demand "no Shalladin." It might be an interesting source of conflict, and I trust Brandon to show it to us in an engaging way.

I agree with most of what was said, though I don't mind Kaladin and Shallan flirting a bit. They won't end up together. As soon as she learns he killed Heleran that will end any chances for a relationship. I hope they can at least remain friends. But yeah, I like Shaolin. I think they will break up, but I hope they get back together eventually. I don't want Renarin's future seeing powers connected to Odium at all. He is clearly a Truthwatcher, no denying that now as of chapter 10. So, he has enough problems without the forces of evil trying to possess him. I don't want Azir uniting with the Voidbringer against Urithru. I want Lift to mouth off at Dalinar and company in this book. I don't want Taravangain to try to kill Dalinar again. I want him to cause conflicts for Dalinar in other ways. I don't want Dalinar to die in this book. I don't want to wait until the end of Oathbringer to read about Vivenna or Jasnah.

I do enjoy Stormcast. I enjoy hearing reactions. However, if you want a more in depth analysis, check out Overlord Jebus's youtube videos "Walking to Urithru." Here is a link the intro video. But I like both styles. Don't change, @Mason Wheeler. This is awesome.

Yay.

Actually it is the other way around. WoR I-14 Taravangaian, Pg. 916.

As much as I love Shallan and Adolin together, there are a lot of hints they might break up and Shallan will flirt with Kaladin. Kaladin and Shallan will not end up together either, because he killed her brother and has not admitted yet. I'm hoping after the break up and some time Shallan and Adolin will get back together. Kaladin isn't going to want to attack the freed parshmen.

He could have called it vexation, fury, wrath, and many other words that just mean hatred. Odium is hatred and disgust. I could be reading too much into it, but that's the fun of speculating. Brandon has said none of the shards are evil.

I agree. This is the reason it is fun to speculate. I maybe wrong, but it is fun to question. Right we don't know and can't begin to at this point. When humans first came to Roshar the spren found them to be a better source for what they needed. I think the Listeners are native to Roshar and made by Adonalsium. Honor, Cultivation, and Odium came later along with the humans. So they were vibrant before Odium. Though, Odium has been associated with red and gold, two vibrant colors. We need to learn more here before we can fully understand Gavilar's intentions. That said the strength of a people is not determined by the level of their technology. This one is easy. Galivar could have been studying this for many years with a team of scholars working for the Sons of Honor and he had visions to show him what it was like in the past. That does not mean he came to the right decisions, but I do believe he knew more than Jasnah who had been studying for only six years all by herself and did not have visions. So... that makes it right to leave them enslaved? I don't think so. There could have been a better way to do this. Find a way to change the industry to no longer need parshmen or slaves in general. But just because it would be a struggle to end it is not enough of the reason to continue such an evil practice. A crisis will unite people if handled the right way. Gavilar assumed he could handle it. We will never know if he was right, but if he had been up to the challenge, yes the crisis would have united his people. This we will need to RAFO as Brandon would say. I doubt this because the last legion was able to remain free of Odium. I don't think the parshmen were enslaved for their own good. They may have been enslaved to prevent a desolation, but preventing this natural through terrible cycle might have been a bad thing. It didn't stick and now the humans are more ill-prepared than ever before. This is another RAFO for us I think. We didn't know about the rhythms until Eshonai's POV. They maybe hearing the rhythms but speaking the language they are accustom too. Those listeners Kaladin saw seem to be in workform, and if they can transform into that I am pretty sure they are hearing the rhythms again. I could be wrong, but that is my guess. Excellent question.

I agree that was not the point of the storm. However, what if this was the only way to free the parshmen? Was there another way? If not, then is it right to leave the parshman as they were just so the humans would be safe? Gavilar does mention the storm to Eshonai and intended it to free the parshmen. It is true the storm likely has another purpose. But what if their was no other way? Maybe free the parshmen with the Everstorm, but then encourage them not to return to their Gods somehow. I don't know. We shall see if Eshonai can break free herself.

Is the Everstorm a good thing? Yes, we know it is from Odium. Yes, it can allow some really awful things to exist. However, it freed a people and from what we know of the listeners, even in chapter 14, they aren't any more evil than the Alethi. Since the prologue, some have been disappointed in Galivar for wanting to bring about the Everstorm. However, maybe he realized leaving the parshmen with an enslaved minds was wrong and the Everstorm was the only way to free them. Yes, he wanted a crisis to unite the people, but also could he have wanted to correct this evil done to the parshmen? Further is the shard Odium, not Rayse, the shard Odium itself evil? It interesting Brandon calls the shard Odium and not anger or hatred. Odium is hatred or disgust at another because of actions they have done. Odium is born from injustice and a desire to bring retribution for evils committed. So in the right context odium is not evil and even necessary. So the Everstorm will end the world as they know it. However, was it good to preserved Roshar as it was and leave innocent people to be born, live, and die as slaves? I don't think it was. So if the Everstorm was the only way to free the innocent parshmens' minds, maybe is a good thing.

Oh this is nothing. Remember when just before WoR came out Tor released random pieces of dialogue from the book. The message boards had a field day with those. Most of our theories were wrong.

Less than 24 hours until chapters 13-15.

Lift giving mouth to Dalinar, Jasnah, or Kaladin. Shallan learning about worldhopping from the Ghostbloods. If it is possible, our first hints at Adolin reviving his shardblade and becoming an Edgedancer. Vivianne giving Zahel/Vasher an earful for leaving her somewhere, if she is alive. A scene at the Horneater peaks Oceans. A scene where Talen begins to regain his sanity. FInding out what happened to Shshshshsh (It will be nice when the next flashback chapter drops and we can finally type her name without a spoiler box), Seeing Dalinar meet Cultivation/the Nightwatcher. Seeing that scene the Oathbringer book description promises when Kaladin realizes the Voidbringers have good reasons for being angry about their slavery and him relating to them because of it. I think that will be an interesting part of the book.

I think the story would be more interesting if Adolin was exiled at the end of this book. Hiding in Urithru would be pointless. What is he going to do while in hiding at Urithru? The only reason to keep someone in hiding would be if you could vindicate them somehow. Adolin did it. The only way to vindicate him is either a trial where his actions are found justified or his status places him beyond the law. I hope it is not the second. That would be dull. But I see no reason to hide Adolin at Urithru. If Shallan or Renarin help Adolin it would be by activating an Oathgate to get him out of there.

I think he can revive his blade anywhere.

But why keep him there? Oh well, I guess we shall see.