eveorjoy

Time for some more wild speculation from me. I think I have an idea why Galivar wanted the treaty so badly. Galivar wanted a treaty to help the Voidbringers become a true threat. I change my mind about Galivar. Galivar really was a psychopathic nut at the end who was hoping for a glorious multi-generational war to keep his kingdom together beyond his death and restore its glory. He knew what he had done in giving Eshonai that back orb. I was listening to the prologue of WoK again when he tells Szeth it is too late to stop him. That is because he has given the voidspren to Eshonai earlier. He had been right. Eshonai likely gave it to the five who gave it to Venli to study. Venli was corrupted by it and set a plan in motion to do what Galivar hoped they would do. It turns out the treaty was unnecessary and war was enough to drive the Parshendi back to their Gods. Now if that was all Galivar had to do, give a black orb to a Listener to start the last desolation, why not do this before? He didn't have the orb with him when he was hunting on the shattered plains. In fact, he might have just obtained the orbs the very day of the feast. Here is how I think Galivar's plan came about. Galivar had the dreams at some point and completely missed their meaning. I also believe he had all of visions Dalinar had and even a few more repeated viewings of the cycle than his brother. I think he told these visions to a select few that he felt were of the same mind about Vorinism, God, the Heralds, and the World. Amaram was among this group while his own wife and brother were not. That brings up many questions that will take me off topic so I won't mention them here. Galivar didn't take the visions as literally as Dalinar. He saw them with his own spin. For example, he didn't believe his God was dead. Amaram, who had been told these visions before, said as much in WoR to Dalinar. He said Dalinar had misunderstood the part where God had said he was dead. Amaram said what God meant was he was dead in the hearts of men. I believe Galivar thought this as well. Galivar and the Sons of Honor interpreted his dreams as a call to bring the world back to God and Vorinism though the final desolation that would bring the Heralds back and unite the world. He says in the new prologue that they needed to go back to war and finish the battle they started. Also the visions show Alethkar as the warrior kingdom that birthed and breed the soldiers of the desolation. I think Galivar was hoping the Final Desolation would restore his kingdom to this and insure its survival beyond his death. So Galivar and the Sons of Honor studied all they could about what really happened to the Heralds and Voidbringers. Ironically, it was the Dalinar who he kept out of the loop who led him to the last free voidbringers. He knew he needed to keep them safe so they could return to strength and start the war a new. So he insisted on a treaty to protect them. He then sought out voidspren to restore them. He was not afraid of this war because he didn't believe it would kill his people. The rise of the Voidbringers would bring back the Heralds and cause God to come alive again in men's hearts. Then they would fight a final battle with the Voidbringers and win. Of course I am guessing all of this. However if this is true, Galivar was a bit insane.

I have not read all the other comments on this. I am just responding to the original question. I love all of Brandon's books, but Stormlight is my favorite series. Currently, my favorite book is the second book in the series Words of Radiance. It is longer book and yet a faster read than Way of Kings. Way of Kings has a very slow start. I did not get hooked until the end of part one and it did not become one of my favorites until the climax. It becomes a great book by the end. However, I think you need to trust Brandon before reading WoK so I always recommend Mistborn or Elantris first. That said, yes the is a beautiful light at the end of the tunnel that makes it all worth it. You need to read all of WoK to enjoy my favorite book WoR. So that alone makes it worth the read. Still WoK is very engaging by the end of part one and just gets better and better after that. Remember, part one is all set up. Audiobooks do make it easier to get through, but if you finish part one you should be hooked into at least Kaladin's story and that will carry you through the rest.

Well if you look at the prologue's thread it appears we had a few more words to say about it.

You are assuming Gavilar realized the Listeners in their forms of power and the true desolation were the same thing. Dalinar didn't recognize the Listeners as the Voidbringers until Shallan told him. Gavilar may have assumed something worse than empowered Listeners was coming in the Everstorm. None of the visions showed what the Everstorm was or how it would be made, only that it was coming and they needed to unite to survive it.

Sorry I could not delete Extesian's name on my tablet for some reason. @ccstat of course my idea is left field speculation and if I am wrong I would not be surprised. However, the Listeners are the Voidbringers. If capturing their spren could turn a Voidbringer soldier into a docile slave, then yes blocking transformations would be very useful in a war with the Voidbringers. Actually, as awful as it is, creating a common enemy is a great way to bring peace among your own kind. It is the plan of people both good and evil in many stories, from Watchmen to The Ender Series. Even in on Roshar you see the idea work. The Listeners had wars among each other until they angered the Alethi. Also Gavilar seemed to keep his princedoms together by finding people for them to fight. It is no wonder that when he hears in dreams the command to unite the world this is the path he would take.

Awesome. I noticed something I had not before. I had guessed the Listeners had given up their gods as part of a truce or to no longer be "enslaved" to the gods. Dull form brought freedom it said in their songs. Galivar told Eshonai that the humans had found away to remove a Listeners's spren putting them into Parshmen form which looks like dull form but has almost no will of their own. So what if dull form gave the Listeners freedom by hiding them in dull form so their spren would not be ripped from them? The dullness brought freedom because the humans would assume they were spren-less and leave them alone. Humans can't tell the difference between a Parshmen and a free dull form Listener. I hope we learn if this is or isn't the case in this book.

I don't think so. It has been mentioned that they were very valuable, but I don't remember anything in WOK or WOR that talks about breeding parshmen. Now if you do find this sequence please share it here. I put my original question here because I figured this had been answered and someone knew that answer.

Yes, thanks, Extesian

We learn from WOR that the Listeners have children by changing to mate form. We learned that the Parshmen have no form but are closest to dull form. Also, we learned the Listeners once only remembered mate and dull form. Therefore, to have children, the Listeners still went into mate form before they rediscovered the other forms. They did not have children in dull form. Finally, Parshman are not immortal, so they need to reproduce their numbers somehow. But Parshman have no form so they never go into mate form. So how do Parshman have offspring?

Pre-ordered audiobook. Pre-ordered Kindle copy. Will get hard copy when Brandon comes to Borderlands bookstore in San Francisco on tour. Likely will have read though the book before I see him in person.

It has been months since I read the Thrill, so you may have a point. All I can say is, I doubt Adolin knows the full extent of what his father did, so believes he is telling the truth. I just took it too much for granted.

I don't think one of those gray marks should count against Kaladin, but we will put that aside. I have argued that issue enough. Kaladin by the end of WOR is as honorable as Dalinar if we are going to let go of mistakes in the past. However, if we are going to count the mistakes a tortured youth, dealing with trauma, as a gauge of his honor then Dalinar youth as a "pitiless killer" would need to be considered as well. I will not spoil what I read in "Unfettered II" but I will say Dalinar was not someone who would have worried about allies and civilians in his youth. Wait until you read how he won Oathbringer. Pitiless killer indeed. When comparing the mistakes Kaladin made in his youth (because he is still a youth) to the mistakes Dalinar made, Kaladin comes across as far more honorable. Adolin said he was like his father when he killed Sadeas and he was right. Dalinar has changed fundamentally from who he once was and has become an honorable man. But you can't say we count what we have seen of Kaladin and declare him less honorable because of it. But Dalinar, it couldn't have been that bad and he has put that behind him so it doesn't count. It's not a fair comparison.

My whole point was just because Kaladin had a clear bias that did not make him any less honorable compared to Dalinar. Dalinar had biases too based on his life experiences. The same can be said of Kaladin. The first lighteyes he knew either had to be tricked into helping his family or betrayed him when her father passed. I not saying Kaladin's parents were right to do what they did, but the point is the one lighteyes who was kind to his family didn't really want to help him. The second group of lighteyes he met tried to ground his family under the heal of crippling poverty and practically sentenced his brother to death. However, even then Kaladin hoped there were some lighteyes who were good like the Ardents promised there were. He believed this of Amaram and never blamed him for Tien's death even though Amaram didn't keep his promise to protect his brother. He then gave everything to save Amaram who then proceeded to kill all his friends and doom him to the awful life of slavery. When Kaladin saved Dalinar he had every reason to believe from his life experience that Dalinar wouldn't return the favor. That I think is why Brandon chose to have Dalinar give up his shardblade for Kaladin and his men. Kaladin knew the true value of a shardblade and seeing that made him rethink everything he had been painfully taught about lighteyes his entire life. Now, I agree with Maxal that we have argued over this point too much. The biases that grow in people as products of their society and environment is a far too complex subject to fully explore here. I merely brought it up to make it clear it is not fair to judge Kaladin less honorable because he has a very human prejudice. This is the last I will argue over Kaladin and Dalinar's biases. I may have more to say on the thread, but I think I have covered all the ground I want to on this issue.

Going to the dictionary. Honor as a verb -- regard with great respect. "Joyce has now learned to honor her father's memory" fulfill (an obligation) or keep (an agreement). "make sure the franchisees honor the terms of the contract" So I think the definition of honor that Syl and these books are concerned with is the second definition, filling an obligation or keeping an agreement. Syl binds things. Only one character focuses on promises they have failed to fulfill in the past and does all he can to make sure he does not fail his responsibility in the future: Kaladin. Kaladin is so obsessed with his failures many of us fans believe one of his oaths will be about getting past this problem. The reason he lost Syl was he made two promises that worked against each other. So yes, in the case of Grave and nearly killing Elohkar he did act dishonorably. But other than that he has been as honorable as Dalinar by trying to keep every promise he made from giving Gaz his bribe to saving Bridge Four, to always protecting those under his care including Elohkar eventually. Dalinar is honorable by the time we read about him in WOKs and WOR. However, I think he and Kaladin are equals. Although, Dalinar did not start that way and I am not referring to his biases. Having biases does not determine honor. I say this because Dalinar did not always follow the codes. Dalinar nearly killed his brother to have Navani. It was only after it got to that point that he began to bind himself and control the Blackthorn. That is when Honor began to matter to him. As for the rest of the characters, you could argue each has honor in their own way, but Honor does not matter to Adolin, Shallan, Renarin, Szeth, Loper, etc like it matters to Kaladin and Dalinar.

No, it isn't prejudiced to assume people will act lowly because they are lowly. Just like it isn't prejudiced to assume lighteyes are corrupt because every lighteyes you have known has been corrupt. Oh, wait, yes it is. It's assuming that just because a person is in a certain group they will act like the stereotypes of said group. "The point of slavery," you say that like it is an acceptable practice when the Way of Kings plot shows it is very much an evil thing. Dalinar accepted an evil institution, therefore, it wasn't prejudiced? And It''s not prejudiced to assume that someone who is disabled can't contribute to society because so many disabled can't. Cough..Ablism...Cough, cough. And it not prejudiced when you force someone in their sixties to retire, even if they can't afford it and can work because people all retire at that age. Cough...Ageism..Cough, cough. It's prejudice to assume how an individual will act or their motives based on their classification. Dalinar hired darkeyes to do the jobs they were allowed to do based on their caste. Kaladin is the first person he has ever, from what we know from the books, raised to a position high above their caste. Yes, he is progressive, but to say he always was before he met Kaladin is wrong. If he were he would have been doing than feeling really bad that bridgeman had to die so highlords could win gem hearts. I'm not saying Dalinar needed to be a social justice warrior on Roshar, but he had prejudices and he still does. All humans have biases. He is working through them and they are not a great as Kaladin's, but he does have them. Kaladin is just as human and having prejudices built up after years of betrayal and abuse does not make him less honorable than Dalinar. That was my point.

@Calderis You make a valid point, but I still think that Szeth's actions had more to do with justice/following the law than honor. Really, we can't be completely sure until book 5.

Did Szeth kill for Honor or because the Law of his people demanded Justice for his crime of believing a lie? The problem with discussing why Szeth was truthless is so much is still unknown. However, much is implied. Szeth only thinks of Honor during his prologue for the Way of Kings, on page 10. --He had heard the Voidbringers could hold it perfectly. But, then, did they even exist? His punishment declared they didn't. His honor demanded they did. Now he was killing on command not because of his honor, but because the Shin justice system declared he his honor was wrong and the Voidbringers were not back. As soon as he learns from Kaladin the Voidbringers and Radiance are returning like believed, he realized he wasn't truthless and no longer had to follow his unjust punishment. I contend then that justice, which is the virtue of the Skybreakers, is the reason Szeth followed his punishment, not honor. Justice is payment and punishment under the law, but not all Laws are honorable. Had Szeth followed his honor he would not have excepted the punishment of being truthless. His honor said he was right and the Voidbringers were back. True, Dalinar is progressive after a darkeyed slave saves his life. However, he did not assume Kaladin was the cause of his rescue at first and was shocked when he saw how well the slaves fought and how disciplined they were. Dalinar is not as prejudiced as Kaladin, but it is there. My point was, being prejudice is not inherently a dishonorable trait. Calling a man who has been as harmed as Kaladin has by the upperclass dishonorable for distrusting those who have so awful abused him is simply incorrect. Also, Kaladin is learning to let go of his prejudice by getting to know Dalinar and befriending Adolin and Shallan.

Dalinar has shown prejudice against Darkeyes. It's a benign prejudice of the privileged assuming those below them deserve their lot, but it is there especially in WOKs. Is it dishonorable to hate those who have harmed you or to look down on those of a lesser class? No. It's wrong, but it is not a matter of honor. The fact that Kaladin hated lighteyes but still saved Dalinar shows his honor. Honor is doing what is right because it is right and that is what Kaladin did despite the cost to himself and his men. He never promised Sadeas he wouldn't save Dalinar. Sadeas barely knew who he was, therefore he could not betray Sadeas. Nor did he betray Amaram. Amaram betrayed him. Kaladin considered taking revenge, but he tried what he thought was the legal method instead. He made mistakes, but they were not dishonorable. The only dishonorable action is that he did not turn in Graves, but I'm sure he did after he saved Elohkar. Sorry, but he seems as honorable to me as Dalinar if not more so. Dalinar because of his past shame, decided to use his power to do what is right. That is easier than doing what is right after being kicked to the ground and trod upon. The fact that Kaladin would save those he did not like, which includes Dalinar because he didn't like him or trust him until Dalinar freed him, shows him to be more honorable. But Dalinar is awesome, so I see it as more as a tie.

Other than nearly killing Eloikar, where has Kaladin been dishonorable?

No, his core personality has changed quite a bit. Edit: I'm trying to defame Dalinar. I loved him more after I read what he had transformed from, but Dalinar is complicated. They are much darker than you think. Dalinar was not the most deprived, but he was far more dishonorable in his youth than Kaladin has ever been. But I still say Kaladin throughout has been as least as honorable as the Dalinar, except when he helped plan killing Elohkar, an act he did not go through with and prevented in the end. Kaladin has been emotional, but he has also kept every promise he has made, save one, to the best of his ability. That is honor and why Sil chose him. I agree Dalinar as he is now is as honorable as Kaladin, but he is not more honorable.

If that is the standard then Kaladin and Dalinar are equally honorable. I love Dalinar, but I don't think he is more honorable than Kaladin. Still, Kaladin being considered more honorable by Tor is likely connected to his order and his Honorspren. Kaladin is now at a place where he would defend even someone he hates if that is what he is supposed to do. Yes, Dalinar would do the same, but he hasn't worn an oath to do that, and I don't think the codes demand such either. Yes, you aren't supposed to turn on an ally in battle, but what if they aren't an ally or an enemy, just an awful person in need of protection. Kaladin would by the demands of his oaths be required to protect such a person. Dalinar has only sworn to unite and not divide. What if you uniting requires allowing those who do not wish to unite to fall by the wayside? Not to say Dalinar would do that but he is not under the same obligations as Kaladin, which I think is Tors reasoning for holding Kaladin up as the Honorable one. It seems to me, some here are judging Kaladin as less honorable because he is imperfect and Dalinar seems to be honest to the point of harming himself. I disagree. Dalinar was not completely honest with Amaram in "Words of Radiance." Kaladin, as of the end of Words of Radiance, is as honorable as Dalinar. If you are judging by the standard of the stupid mistakes of youth, then Dalinar would need to be judged by the same standard. I have read the Unfettered flashback and Tor has read all of Oathbringer. Dalinar has done far more dishonorable things, in his youth, than Kaladin. Now I agree my argument hindered by the inability to discuss spoilers, but all throughout The Way of Kings and Words of Radiance Brandon alluded to Dalinar's less honorable past. Until we have read Oathbringer we cannot say whether Kaladin or Dalinar is more honorable.

Those who think Dalinar more honorable than Kaladin have not considered (or read about) Dalinar's Blackthorn past. I think his flashbacks in Oathbringer will make you reconsider your position. Without giving away spoilers, the scenes I read in "Unfettered 2" show a very different Dalinar from the one we know now. Dalinar as a young man before he followed the codes. However, the books so far suggest his less honorable past. Dalinar has said a few times that he was very close to killing his own brother. How honorable is that? I don't want to say too much more because this isn't the Oathbringer forum, but the truth is, we don't know Dalinar's bloody past of knives in the back yet. You know him twenty years later after he has made the mistakes of youth, adopted the codes, and memorized the Way of Kings in honor of the brother he was too drunk to save. This would be a question best considered after the next book.

Note I did not say Dalinar killed his wife, just that his boon and him forgetting was related to her death. Not the same thing. I hope Vivian is in Oathbringer, but I doubt we will get this awesome scene from my silly predictions.

First five serious predictions. 1. We will learn why Dalinar forgot his wife. Likely he asked to forget and it is related to her death. 2. Kaladin will learn why his name sounds like a lighteyes name. He is named after a lighteyes on his mother’s side. One of his maternal grandparents is a tenth dahn who married a darkeyes of the first nahn. 3. Shallan will learn something from the Ghostbloods that will alter how she sees Roshar. Likely something about the Cosmere. 4. Adolin will be broken and begin on the path to becoming a Knights Radient, though he may not hear a spren until the end of Oathbringer or the beginning of Stormlight 4. I don’t think the spren will be his shardblade, but who knows? Well, Brandon does and the Beta readers, but that is beside the point. 5. Eshonal survived her fall. If Kaladin and Shallan could, why not a voidbringer in full shardplate? She will continue on her path to becoming the Odium’s Champion. Now five silly predictions. 6. Lift will make it to Urithru and open a pancake stand with the former Emperor of Emur. 7. Jasnah and Wit will start a roadshow called “The End of The World Follies,” featuring the Lizard Crab thing. 8. Stick will start the Religion of Self among the Spren, which denies soul casting. His founding creed, “I AM A Stick.” 9. Zahel is embarrassed in front of his fellow ardents, when a woman, with bright red hair, stomps up to him, causes a cloak to come alive and wrap him up. She then yells, “Vashar, how dare you leave me behind and where is nightblood?” 10. Taln regains his senses and then smacks the heck out of the Sons of Honor for bringing about what he suffered 4000 years to prevent. Or he hugs each of them for ending his suffering.

Okay if it needs to be one of the main five, Szeth will be getting the interlude novella. He and Nale have plenty to do and this was going to be his book originally.