CognitiveShadow

I just don't see the hint or setup. I see extremely normal phrases being used by Sja-Anat in regards to her own children, and then trying to make a connection to Shallan and make her think of her own posterity. I think this has been wildly blown out of proportion. Sure, Shallan will probably have kids at some point and it's totally possible that she gets pregnant in this book. I don't have a problem with it. I just have a problem with the absolute certainty I keep seeing by people because one spren referenced preventing the end of the world so Shallan's children could have a place to live. Let's pump the brakes and see if there is any other foreshadowing or references that give this a little more validity instead of jumping right into "omg shallan is pregnant and it's going to be twins because Sja-Anat said children plural". That's way too much for me.

Yes, I agree with this viewpoint here. We have to put ourselves into the minds of the characters, not sit here in our much safer, much more organized, much less chaotic world and pretend that those people struggling for survival in the fantasy story need to live up to our standards of morality. We have each been shaped since birth to subscribe to certain values and morals that others in different circumstances would not say are inherently right/wrong. I bet Adolin and Kaladin and others would look at our world and call us out for a lot of the stuff we do or support that they find completely immoral or wrong. Even people born in different circumstances on Earth will have different viewpoints on what is right/wrong. That's one of the themes of the book too - remember the discussion with Syl and Kaladin talking about how it was ok for him to kill the parshendi when protecting Dalinar, but it would be wrong for him to kill Amaram? Syl agrees that it basically comes down to whatever she perceives as right vs wrong, even though she doesn't have the answers. And she is an Honorspren.. so Kal is surprised that she is just as lost as he is. Humans define and shape what is honorable and right vs what is wrong. Those ideals are what shape and define the honorspren too. I can't imagine that the people on Roshar with their histories and cultures would land on the exact same general guidelines for right vs wrong that the majority of people on earth would support as well. To use an extreme example - would anyone be upset at somebody who had successfully killed off Hitler in the exact same way that Adolin killed Sadeas? No. They'd think it was great that someone finally got the guy. And I imagine that's how a lot of the people in the book viewed Sadeas' death - if you weren't aligned closely with him you probably hated his guts but knew he was protected cause he had a lot of power. The only potential issue is that now people find out he did it and that Dalinar helped cover it up (or at least avoided disclosing it to others), and if they liked Sadeas they might think it is an example of corruption and a reason worthy of opposing Dalinar's rule. Not to write out too much stuff - but I'm far more concerned with Kaladin getting off the hook for agreeing to let the king be assassinated when it was his one job to prevent that. He had conflicting oaths in that case that almost killed Syl as a result. I don't remember that ever being addressed - he basically allowed the assassination to be kicked off, then stepped in to save the day and took all the credit but none of the blame. Does Navani know that Kaladin was part of a secret group that was organizing the exact attempt on the kings life that he foiled? Sure, he eventually stopped it, but to me that was way less moral than what Adolin did. He got lucky that it hadn't already been taken care of before he went back. Otherwise he'd be a sad dude still healing his leg in a barrack somewhere. The difference of a few minutes means he is instead a full knights radiant and the 3rd heir to Dalinar's throne.

Good point - is anyone going to punish Shallan for killing Ialai? Or what about for killing both her parents? At some point we just have to realize that the world these characters are in is NOT earth. And it's not in a similar time period that earth is in. People get away with murder often enough - especially if their dad is the ultimate judge and the person they murdered was their dad's sworn enemy who tried to leave them stranded and left to die shortly before then. They also live in a world where they just formally duel each other to the death all the time. Adolin's dad and uncle AND Sadeus were all warlords who just killed their way to the throne. It's not exactly a strong foundation for a culture or safety, protection, equality, etc. It's all about letting the strongest rule, proving yourself in combat, etc. That's the whole worldview that Adolin grew up in. Given that cultural context I'm not remotely shocked that he took advantage of an opportunity and killed Sadeus. And I'm not really surprised that he's gettign away with it, cause sometimes books need realistic examples instead of idealistic examples. Stormlight has plenty of idealistic examples, and I'm glad we are getting a more realistic one, even if it feels at odds with the higher values that the radiants and the new Dalinar stand for. All that said, I agree with the other people here who have suggested Adolin could become Odium's champion. I would not be shocked, especially after the passion we keep seeing from him in these previews. He's still very angry at his dad, and his dad is very angry at him. I could see a world where Odium curates some rough situations for Adolin, makes him think all is lost, and then offers to save Shallan and keep Roshar intact and relatively safe if he would just become his champion and face Dalinar. If we are realistic about it - Adolin killing Dalinar wouldn't actually mean Dalinar is gone - he would come back as a fused anyway. So they'd have plenty of time to hash things out after that lol plus I doubt Dalinar can bring himself to permanently kill his son, so it pretty much assures victory for Odium. I'd enjoy reading this story line anyway.

Posterity, not prosperity. Like her descendants. I agree she totally could be and I’m down for them to have kids soon. I’m just saying that the one line from Sja-Anat is nothing remotely close to clear confirmation. People were talking like it was an obvious signal but I don’t think that’s the case at all. The possibility for it was never closed, though. It can easily happen, in just saying this one interaction doesn’t tell us anything. And I also think that wording by Asha-Anat was a very normal thing she would have said even if Shallan were definitely not pregnant.

But she was talking specifically about her children in that situation. That was her clear priority, and her mentioning Shallan’s children in that context makes sense cause it’s an attempt to find common ground. If Shallan had reacted a certain way to it or if it was said in a different way or something I could see it being an allusion to her being pregnant, but the context leads me to believe Sja anat would say that or something similar regardless of whether Shallan was currently pregnant or not. So unless there’s other evidence I’ll take this one with a major grain of salt. If she is pregnant and Brandon is foreshadowing that a bit, then we’ll see multiple seemingly meaningless statements threaded into conversation. But this one alone doesn’t mean anything by itself in my mind.

It does seem like his relationship with Iyatil is a little like a sith and their apprentice - like he could be constantly trying to trick and murder her to prove himself or something and I feel like that would actually fit lol I hope this isn't the case - I'd much prefer a world where someone can mention another character's future kids/family/posterity and their safety without it instantly meaning that they are pregnant or about to have kids right away. Especially because she said kids plural - to me that reads as a generic phrase used by a spren trying to plead with Shallan to help her create a world where her children and Shallan's posterity can be safe and allowed to exist. I didn't feel like there was any other hint involved that would point towards Shallan having a kid. Plus, she can't keep her own history straight and her husband still might turn out to be Odium's champion, so I really hope for her sake that she isn't pregnant with twins. To me this theory is reading too much into it.

I agree that he has some dubious goal in mind that we are uncertain of, but I don't think this is it. You would need a LOT of anti-light to destroy even a fragment of a shard's investiture. It could be as simple as Mraize having the mindset of ensuring he is always the 'hunter' and therefore that he needs to update his weapons of choice with the newest technology available. But I do think there will be some application of that weapon that marks a major turning point in the plot of the book. No idea what it will be yet!

Meh, it's possible but I don't think this is an indication of it. I also think that Adolin and Shallan are both pretty vocal about not wanting to be included in the line of succession themselves, so they probably don't spend a lot of time worrying about having an heir. At least not for that reason anyway.

I thought the broken one was a reference to Odium (Rayse) previously. And now Taravangian perceives himself as the divided one, likely because his book/curse prepared him to enter shard-ship with this mindset. Wob below about the broken one and odium.

Right! I don't get where the confusion is here after reading the back and forth on this thread. First of all, what on Roshar would make a Gavilar return make any level of sense? He is dead and gone, and he's of no more relevance really other than to continue appearing in flashbacks or having more details of his life get revealed by the Stormfather which will further Dalinar's development as a person, leader, and bondsmith. If anything, from the flashbacks we have learned that Gavilar was not pulling all the strings, but instead having his strings pulled by multiple groups. He was less significant than he thought he was, and if he was brought back by a miracle at this point Navani and Dalinar would probably both reject him. Sadeus is dead too, so he wouldn't even be around to help give Gavilar support. He would be a pointless person to bring back at this stage. I think anyone who reads Rushu as not being non-binary / gender-fluid / etc. at least to some degree is just trying to find a way to ignore all the signs. The most straightforward and plain reading of the text implies very heavily that she is. Especially with her comments about beards and hair length, Navanni's internal thoughts about how/why Rushu is oblivious or intentionally ignores the male attention she gets.. and then her excitement at speaking with the Sibling and specifically wanting to discuss their gender identity? She wasn't just engaging in her typical scholarly excitement - she was connecting with a kindred spirit. The way that she responds quietly makes it seem even more like this is a personal thing her for and the main driver of her responses. It's great that Brandon is including these nuances and aspects to his characters and I hope we get to see more of their perspectives and experiences. To me this is plain as day, and I'm glad to see Brandon incorporating more and more LGBTQ+ characters in his books, and doing it in such a positive, inclusive, and normalizing way.

Agree with all of this! Also, I just randomly was reading WoR as a re-read leading up to 12/6. I found an interesting line here by Navani when she finally talks to Shallan about Jasnah's work. Quote is below, Navani talking about her relationship with Jasnah.. Feels like a solid nod towards the reverse - Shallan killing Chana. There's something poetic here about Shallan's future mother-in-law making this comment during their first genuine interaction with each other. Particularly if the Chana Davar theory plays out as we expect it to.

Wait, didn't Hoid already confirm that the Wind was a spren of Adonalsium? Those 3 (Night, Wind, Stone) are the OG siblings and OG spren of Roshar and Adonalsium. We also have confirmation that the original bondsmiths did bond with those 3 spren, instead of the more recent Nightwatcher, Stormfather, or Sibling. Kaladin will very likely bond with the Wind and become an OG bondsmith, but I'm not so sure about the Knight of Truth.... maybe Shallan? Perhaps she bonds with Ba-Ado-Mishram or something? We still know very little about where BAM came from or what they really are now. On a side note about the Night - we know she left and that people didn't really vibe with her. But I do like the idea of Nightblood having some connection to Night - perhaps when the scholars were on Roshar, Night was still there? Wait... did she leave WITH them? and allow them to forge (some of) her essence into the sword?...? But also, there is a new death rattle I just read while doing my re-read in WoR. When Taravangian goes to Jah Keved to get the crown there passed on to him from Valam, Valam's bastard son kills him and then he says, "So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life.."

Interesting topic! I have a few thoughts: I think Honor and Cultivation allowed Odium to enter/join their system under the condition that he would be bound to it and unable to leave. That was the trade off: they had to deal with him, but at least he was stuck in their system and could not continue to wreak havoc on the other parts of the cosmere There's a WoB about Honor 'going down swinging' when Odium finally did attack him, so I think that implies that Honor did something that opened him up to Odium's attack. We don't know what that might be. We also know that the stormfather is/contains the cognitive shadow of Tanavast as well. They are kind of a dual being and it gets murky which memories or intentions belong to the original spren vs Tanavast himself My thoughts here are that Honor intentionally attached himself to the SF so that he would be involved in the selection and development of the next bondsmith, who he knew would be unchained. This was probably a last-ditch effort to create an opportunity for someone to forcefully merge the powers of Odium and Honor (and maybe Cultivation?) together as one

Yeah, that's where my expectations are at this point - I think this was part of a last-ditch effort by Honor as he was dying. He attached his cognitive shadow to the stormfather so that he could (hopefully) help guide the next bondsmith and get them to do this forced shard merge. But I think his merging with the stormfather was a more traumatic experience for both of them than he expected and they have had some muddied memories, goals, Intent, etc. that has gotten in their way. I expect that Dalinar will try to take up Honor's power and ascend as part of the contest of champions, thinking he needs to access the power in order to win the contest. As he does that, he will technically die, which means he will have lost the contest. He will try to fight back against Odium, but since he lost the contest he is supposed to serve Odium, so his rebellion means Odium can destroy him. Enter Kaladin, who will return just in time. He will have bonded the Wind and become an OG bondsmith, and will also have learned from Ishar how to do this kind of forced connection/merger of the shards. He will use these new powers to combine both powers, but Dalinar will still be destroyed. Taravangian becomes the shard of the combined Honor and Odium shards. Unfortunately, this will make him even more dangerous because he will be able to control the shard more but it will also strengthen his resolve and conviction that his goals to destroy the other shards are honorable and based on justice/wrath. Plus Dalinar then gets brought back as a fused and has to work for Taravangian forever. Sets the stage for the back half of the stormlight books. Edit to add: I also think Navani plays a part here too - I think she and Kaladin (maybe Dalinar if he isn't incapacitated) work together to force the shard merger. Navani does have experience combining Odium and Honor's investiture after all! Plus there will probabaly be something to do with the tones/rhythms of roshar and playing the flute, recognizing those rhythms and getting the wind to sing along with them, etc. I think all that comes into play as they then apply their bondsmith powers to make the connection

Agreed! I just had my theories shot down and I'm sad about it cause I was getting excited, but it's also not a big deal haha it's the only way we have a shot at uncovering the mysteries!

Meh. I think it's ok for people to be able to shoot from the hip with their theories. If it is outlandish and you can show that it's unfounded, then you just share the WoB's or other info that shows the theories are incorrect. We should encourage people to share all their ideas and thoughts. This at least gives us the opportunity to see theories that we never would have thought of or considered ourselves.

Man, I'm bummed. I was hoping there would be something interesting related to the whole Child of Tanavast stuff, but it sounds like it's just gonna be something symbolic and boring. Found another couple of WoB's that destroy the premise even further: I would refer you back to Shallan's entire backstory and existence as exhibit A of why these theories aren't actually that outlandish lol without the WoBs I still think the Lirin/Tanavast theory would work and be pretty interesting. I will happily admit that drugs were used in the development of my additions to these theories lol

That doesnt make sense though because the use of the term "Child of Tanavast" is only used for Kaladin.... we don't see that phrase used anywhere else. So the question is - why does Kaladin get this name/title when no one else does? Other's only get son/child of Honor, never Tanavast. After recent discussions here, I am starting to think that there could be an answer. Maybe Tanavast gave up his power (part of a larger plan that culminates at the contest of champions) and then 'abdicated' his godhood and became a regular person. Of course he'd be immortal in the sense that he would not age much and would live on without dying from old age. I'm even wondering if he attached most of his memories as Honor / Tanavast to the Stormfather, truly giving himself as normal of a mortal experience as he could. The abdication story in the Way of Kings seems to be something that could be a parallel to Tanavast/Honor. If he did do this, who have we seen that might be a possible candidate for being this semi-mortal Tanavast? Lirin. He fits all the characteristics of someone who held the shard of Honor. He won't cause harm to anyone, won't stand for broken oaths, etc. This would explain why Kaladin would be referred to as Son of Tanavast specifically.

But what if he ascends during the contest... he would techinically die in the process of the ascension, which would mean that he has lost the contest and would be brought back as a fused... But what I think happens is that Dalinar tries to forge a Connection between the power of Honor and the power of Odium, merging the shards and giving tOdium a sense of honor to help guide his passion/odium.

My biggest concern is that he doesn't try to take up the power until during the contest, which technically results in his "death" as he ascends. Therefore losing the contest.

Ok I have some thoughts here. Was just chatting on a different thread about something similar. I don't that Nohadon is directly tied to Tanavast, as I'm pretty sure he is from a much older time period (well before Tanavast either dies or gives up the shard). But he is also from way too recent a time to be tied to who Tanavast was before the shattering of Adonalsium. So I think it's safe to say that Nohadon is a separate person. BUT - what if the way of kings wasn't actually written by Nohadon? What if Tanavast did write it himself and it's something of a symbolic telling of his time as the King of all people and his decision to abdicate? What if part of Tanavast's plan included stepping down and leaving his power in the spiritual realm, but attaching the memories of his time as a shard to the stormfather and a portion of his cognitive shadow as well? And THEN, what if Tanavast altered his own memories or suppressed his identity and secretly went out into the world to live as a regular mortal? This tracks with the story in the in-world Way of Kings epigraphs we are seeing. Though I'd say it's also possible Tanavast as Honor instructed Nohadon to write the book and had him include some specific things that were related to his journey as the Almighty and his (future?) abdication. So then where is Tanavast today? Well, we happen to know an oath-obsessed and duty-bound character who likes to save people and refuses to do any harm to people. This character also has a son who is the only character in existence to be referred to (frequently) as "Son of Tanavast".... Lirin! What do you think, any chance that Lirin is the 'descended' Tanavast trying to fit in, hide, and stay as uninvolved as possible?

LIRIN. We all know Lirin is honorable to the extreme - especially with his oaths to protect/save lives and to do no harm. He is stubborn and won't back down easily. What if Lirin WAS tanavast... he dropped the shard, abdicated the throne, and left to mix among the mortals like a regular human. What if he attached a portion of himself with the bulk of his memories to the stormfather so they could take things from there, and then he went to go have a normal life or a few of them? This would make Kaladin the literal son of Tanavast. And it's possible that Lirin himself doesn't remember all the details (perhaps he stores copies of his memories elsewhere and lets himself fully lean into his regular life) and/or that no one else is aware of his former role...

I think that Honor and Cultivation had a plan. They trapped Odium to their system to prevent him from continuing on his rampage and killing more shards and causing more destruction. And then Honor gave up his shard intentionally, attaching his cognitive shadow to the SF. Then he planned to get a bondsmith so that they could bind the power of Odium, Honor, and Cultivation into one shard, with the intent that it would mellow or balance out Odium's intent and create a more manageable shard to protect the cosmere. Similar to how the creation of Harmony sort of nullified the Ruin shard, if just temporarily. But I think it goes wrong and only Honor and Odium end up getting merged together, with Taravangian at the lead. I think Dalinar loses the contest of champions on a techinicality, which means he will be stuck as Taravangian's fused, destined to return over and over again as his agent in the cosmere. I think the combo of Honor and Odium creates a shard that is filled with more of a righteous indignation and is hell bent on bringing justice to the cosmere by destroying the other shards and trying to be the only one left so he can create what he thinks are the best systems.

Oh wow! Yeah so it's already out there as a confirmed possibility! Now I'm even more convinced! It sounds like the Night just up and left and no one really interacted with them much. But someone else called out above that it would be interesting to see if the Night has any ties to The Night Brigade from the sunlit man.....

Like you pointed out, that can simply be interpreted as Taravangian trying to keep himself separate from the power and not let it rule him. So it's a division of what he wants to do as the vessel and what the power wants him to do. Which makes sense since the power is more emotional and reactive while his mind is more logical and calculating. Rayse wasn't particularly bright and was pretty much ruled by the shard. To me, the quote you shared is him trying to remind / convince himself that he is still him, that he is not Odium but instead holds the shard. I imagine most people would (and probably did) try this approach/mentality. I really still read all of this as just the nature of holding the shard while attempting to control it instead of the other way around - I see nothing that indicates Cultivation's boon/curse on him is still having any impact. In fact, I don't think it would make sense for it to still have an impact on him after he has both died and ascended to godhood. There is also a death rattle that might be relevant here: I kind of read this as Honor, Cultivation, and Odium all ruling separately, but then Odium kind of took control after Honor died and Cultivation stepped into the shadows. I kind of see the Broken One title as an earlier reference to rOdium. I think divided one and broken one are pretty much swappable and that the main issue with holding the shard of Odium is that the power feels all of the passions and emotions of all people and those emotions overwhelm the vessel, making it difficult for them to think logically and function properly. See Odium and Cultivation speaking below: I also think it would be pretty explicitely called out if his boon/curse was still in effect. We don't see any reference to days with more intelligence and less emotion or vice versa, just a callout to how difficult it is to manage the emotions and logic as the vessel for Odium. I'm with you on that, but I've had a hard time thinking of one I like better so I've just gone with the one used for the lights for now. I do like Justice or Wrath though! Either way, I can see that shard combo being very dangerous for the cosmere, especially if Taravangian is in control. We see him telling Cultivation that he needs to get rid of all the other gods, and he even calls them out as being responsible for all the problems in the cosmere. He could very well feel that he needs to bring 'Justice' and/or 'Wrath' to the cosmere in the form of an intergalactic war.