CognitiveShadow

Wow. I was always confused about the Ooklah stuff but never enough to ask about it haha I suppose I can participate!

Maybe he was after a dawnshard or something (in particular to keep it away from Odium?) Could be that he got that dawnshard whether from Rysn or different one and then bounced, leaving them to their own devices. Spoiler for secret projects:

I imagine he tried to set them up "protected" so that once he figured out how to make it work for him he could go get them and use them. There were probably a good amount of people involved in their creation and it was that or kill all of the people who knew too much. But Kel isn't one for killing people who aren't at least in his own mind somewhat deserving of it. So instead he used a classic misdirection where he could just slide on by and grab them when ready while everyone else focused on the stuff inside the temple. As for the coin, I wonder if that memory was somehow stolen by Hoid somehow? It's definitely a big question mark as to how Hoid got his hands on that. It would be a weird memory for Kelsier to put into a coin if he could do that... I feel like Hoid did something special to capture that one.

Kelsier still could have been the one to deliver the bands to the southern scadrials. It seems most likely to me that Harmonys hands were tied and he couldn’t do anything to help them, so marsh and Kelsier stepped in to help out. Kelsier of course would use his typical flair with the delivery of the amulets and knowledge and rule them for a time to help get them set up

Could be that Odium wins in SA5 and Hoid has to jump ship to the next place where he is needed.

Those are valid alternatives… but I would say that lying to his crew isn’t off brand. He had a whole secret plot that he didn’t fill his crew in on in era 1. They even confronted him on it and he just avoided or led them to think he was just being self-aggrandizing or something. But he was instead building up a religion around himself. And then he did it again as the sovereign… might not be too crazy to think he is building himself up as Thaidakar now as well

Very likely that there are, but if he’s a mistborn he could burn copper and block it anyway. though it would be strange for them to think he is mistborn if they never see him do anything like steel pushing and stuff. Just seems weird that he mentioned that in the Seon call but then we find out he can’t do it. Unless he has a medallion he can use for that or something? But I get the vibe that the bands were created as an experiment for him to hopefully get powers back, but it didn’t work for him.

Fair, I’m not as worried about the technicality of him “lying” vs “misleading” vs “conning” vs “hiding the truth” though. My main point is that I’m curious what he has led people to believe about his abilities. Do the ghostbloods think he is still mistborn? It seems like he lets them assume that based on the one line we see. Which is interesting. I wonder what other organizations like the sons of honor, the 17th shard, etc believe or know about his condition and abilities. TLDR: I think Kelsier is (maybe just by habit) running a con on everyone, letting the world(s) think that he is still super powerful and using that reputation as something to continue building his influence. Regarding the map stuff, yeah I don’t know. Could be that they go a circuitous route to avoid mountains and attention or something but seems odd that there isn’t a big ocean separating all sides of the continents

So, Kelsier the Survivor / Thaidakar / The Sovereign… three in one, all the same person, all with mythic and/or religious reputations that reference his power and abilities. In Keslier’s epilogue, we learn that he has no powers anymore, is basically just a regular person (to the extent that he can still be a regular person) with a spike that only keeps his spirit attached to his body. Hemelurgy has not been very effective, he dreams of being able to fly with steel pushes again, etc. However, when Kelsier is talking to his new crew via a seon, he says he is in the ocean and steel pushing would not be a viable option for him to get there in time……….???? So is he lying to his crew and everyone else, pretending to be a full mistborn and full feruchemist etc? Who all actually knows he is powerless? Just Sazed?

I totally agree, this is where my train of thought is on this. I also think Sazed knows and understands this. He is pretending to not know a lot of stuff, acting like he isn’t in complete control. He’s being twisted into a mastermind OR evil genius by his dual intents. I mean the dual intents of Harmony and Discord, though. If he can’t bring about Harmony in the cosmere, he will collapse into accepting the Discord and leaning into it instead of fighting it. Or maybe he’s already secretly Discord and is loving all the conflicts popping up in and around Roshar

You know, that’s the beauty of this forum! Bet you can’t get that image out of your head now lol

Haha well I’m still sitting in front of my phone and computer nonstop refreshing the screens while the new audible status is “order processing” …. Just in case it somehow goes live early lol

Gotcha, figured that was probably the case but I’m in Central time in the US… seems a little early to me but no complaints here! I guess I’ll know in about 40 min either way

So I looked at my preorders on audible and it says releasing in 1 hour and 8 minutes. Is this a sick joke by the God Beyond or is this legit? If so, cancelling all my evening plans.

Wow, that fits very nicely! And I could see that men of red and gold being some army that Odium has at least helped Autonomy prepare, maybe even the Rosharans after they fall to Taravodium in SA5 (just my guessing)

yeah seriously though, I don't think I'd be jumping out that window with out at least taking a swig of one of those vials and doing some quick tests

All I gotta say is if I was Wax that red cork and note would make me try it immediately hahah

Possible. I guess we haven’t explored what might happen if someone snorts the metals have we? Like usually it’s about eating and then burning…. Maybe there’s some interesting effects when you inhale the dust instead too haha maybe that’s why it’s taking days for the effect to set in?

I wondered about this, but I think it is more related to the dust he inhaled after the explosion- I think he is mistborn or something like the others have mentioned on this thread. I get the feeling he has been using steel a lot less recently so it doesn’t make sense as to why he would suddenly start having new savant symptoms. Plus he already has some savant stuff happening with his protective bubble and stuff. I think it’s more like a part of the avatar process- which I’d guess is a merging of Telsin with Autonomy’s investiture, having access to autonomy’s power in lots of ways, but also losing control and “self” in that process as well. My guess anyways.

So, regarding Autonomy’s Intent- basically Bavadin is the person in the group project who ignores the rest of the team and just does the project alone, happy to find ways to sabotage everyone else by calling out that they didn’t contribute on the project, therefore building herself up and tearing others down at the same time. Win-win. And then she’ll also try to blow up your house if you don’t give it to her and move out cause if she can’t have it no one can.

What a great last chapter before the release tomorrow! Brandon definitely planned it so we would be debating on autonomy / odium / etc the whole time leading up and then just dropped the very direct and clear answer in the chapter today. It felt like Brandon was speaking instead of Sazed lol

Sooooo Harmony was behind the mobilization of the Ghostbloods?? Edit: I’m thinking that is what this means. Probably more in the indirect way of allowing Kelsier to found them and giving some guidance here and there.

Lol for real though- definitely clearing my schedule and burning through this one nonstop haha

I don’t know, it seems like the immortals that are showing up is more of a possession situation. I know that sounds similar to the fused, but I think it’s a little different. It doesn’t seem like these “fused” are being killed regularly, requiring them to get new bodies. But they seem to show up as some random person each time. Suit thought that they took control over one of the people off the street. I lean towards this being a similar principle to the fused in process, but not necessarily from Odium. Though he could be involved indirectly I think

I think it’s worth remembering that, culturally and historically, metalborn have tried to keep their abilities secret. That’s probably faded over time since the catecendre, but it could have been a factor in keeping them from truly integrating with the progress of society. Not to mention that they metalborn could be less common and/or less powerful than before. Also, Harmony has called out that since the people in Luthedell haven’t faced much opposition previously, their progress has been slow. I think they’ve been less innovative than we would normally expect a group of people to be. They probably follow their Shard’s intent to remain in harmony, which sort of keeps the status quo