Ixthos

Hi guys. So, despite still having a lot to do I decided to finally make a Coppermind user page, and make some adjustments to the Shard page - Harmony being lumped with the others was really bothering me. However, I was puzzled that i hadn't received an email about my account being created as some other sites had done, so I went to check. Long story short it seems I haven't been receiving the emails, and I did confirm I had typed my gmail account in correctly. Could anyone help clarify or resolve this issue? Also, once my email is confirmed will I be able to create a user page? I still am stressed with what I have to do IRL and so neither of these issues should be a priority for me right now, but if anyone could help that would be appreciated

I like this theory would Sixteen be an agent of Trell only, or any or all of Bavadin's extensions?

It still uses ettmetal. To produce perpetual motion it also requires constant tapping and storing into the metal, and it isn't clear if this does or doesn't cause wear on the metalmind. Also, I don't remember the airship floating being due to feruchemy, though I could be wrong. Either way, we still haven't explored the dynamics required - lets assume the airship's own mass can be stored. That would still require making metalminds which can do so, assuming mechanical feruchemy doesn't consume ettmetal each time it taps and stores, so assuming the metalminds don't start to lose efficiency or degrade over time and lose storage capacity, and that to even make that system doesn't require the excisors to kill a feruchemist. [Edit] It also assumes the power produced justifies the expense - if a hand whisk could turn indefinitely, the type with the crank and gears, how many of them would it take to power a single house?

With respect, powering an airship, and ships which require the crew to decrease their weight, is very different from powering a city or even a building. This isn't to say it couldn't, but we also don't know how many airships they have, whether or not it consumes the life of an allomancer or feruchemist to make, and how much fuel it consumes - ettmetal is likely a finite resource. The key issues of cost, efficiency, power, resource consumption, haven't been addressed. While Scadrial is an Earth analogue, it doesn't follow that they won't deviate in some ways while mirroring in others. Metal production is likely to be even more significant on Scadrial than on Earth, especially aluminium. True, and I don't doubt Brandon will still do so. Still, Brandon may subvert the space opera utopian civilisation cliche by having an ash-covered future Scadrial. Brandon could make the Lost Metal end with a dance-off, though I think that would fit better in a Nalthian story. The things is Brandon doesn't subvert cliches because he can - if he did that he could have had Rashek choose to jump off Kredik Shaw at the end of Mistborn after Vin found his diary. Brandon does things which makes sense AND subvert cliches. Scadrial returning to being a broken planet, this time due to human hubris, would be poetic and fit the stories bookending. Of course Brandon may also choose not to do so, and it certainly would be hopeful if he kept the planet clean. Brandon could go either way, and he could indeed use the idea you suggested about using the Metallic arts to sustain the planet's industry. But he also could add any number of issues with why something wouldn't work when scaled up, or powerful groups actively working to keep the clean Metallic arts power generation and manufacturing - or any imported magic - out of general circulation. It could go any way, there are any number of reasons, the reason I suggest the planet will be covered in smoke later is for both in setting practical and ironic reasons.

Fair point. Still, that is based on two assumptions: that using the Metallic arts to produce power is economically viable and easily accessible to everyone who wants to use it - i.e. that power stations using that method are cheap - as you say probably not for cars, etc., but still cheap enough to be viable in building a power station, produce enough energy, and can be mass produced, and doesn't have its own negative side effects, such as consuming metals that pollution mainly comes from power generation, rather than from waste products used in manufacturing - i.e. that even if you had unlimited energy the chemical processes used to produce various goods doesn't itself produce waste. As I recall making aluminium takes a lot of energy, and produces waste - even if you had free energy, the industry to extract aluminium and refine it would still produce smoke. From wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium I don't doubt there will be local pollution in some areas, but the main thrust of this argument is the irony of Scadrial being covered in ash again after all the effort to cleans the planet. Perhaps it will only be local to some cities, but I like to think Kelsier will look on the planet, after seeing it cleansed, and think of all the humans on the planet working together redid the damage Rashek inflicted. Perhaps it will be confined to industrial cities, but for both the irony of the return to ash, and the cyberpunk aesthetic, I wonder if Brandon will do this.

Not enough to change the sky yet - that's why I said the 1980's or Cyberpunk, after there is enough industry going on for the sky to be clouded as though there were Ashmounts active again.

I meant more in a "the sky was the colour of a TV tuned to a dead channel" kind of way, but fair enough what I'm referring to is the idea of Scadrial once again being a planet of ash and smoke.

That's a good point. Still, it could be because there is some substance introduced into Scadrial's crust that is chemically similar to coal but which isn't coal as we know it, or, and I think this might be a fun idea, they made Scadrial as a normal planet is believed to be made, and then sped up time around it, possibly also affecting the star to make sure there was enough light falling on its surface, and allowed life to develop on it at an accelerated pace - so a localised speed bubble around the planet, as if any shards are time shards, it's Preservation and Ruin.

Because those zombies would have killed everyone, soldier and civilian alike. Those zombies would have murdered children, women, the sick, the helpless, and begun another war. Idris may be backwards in many ways, but saving Idris wasn't just for Idris's sake, but for the sake of everyone in the region. Remember, Idris had allies - the attack would have created another Manywar. As for the Lifeless, it sucks for them, I do feel sorry for them. Yet if I had to choose between the survival of ten Lifeless and one child, I would choose the child. And we aren't just talking about one child's life for many Lifeless, but a few Lifeless for many children.

Adolin singing to his shardblade, Maya:

... I can't even look at you right now. Take your up vote! Take it! ()

A lot of it is from Brandon's signings and answering questions, yes, though the coppermind has a list of different sources. Most of what we know about Yolen comes from Brandon directly talking about it (most recorded at the arcanum website), as well as unreleased material like the unpublished and not canon Liar of Partinal, which is set on Yolen and is Hoid's origin story, though Brandon is planning on writing the canonical version in Dragonsteel, set on Yolen. The best places to check for more info probably are the coppermind and the arcanum website, though I do recommend you read Dawnshard and Row before diving too deeply, as they do have spoilers: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Hoid (Hoid coppermind article) https://coppermind.net/wiki/Unpublished_works (List of planned and unpublished books) https://wob.coppermind.net/ (Arcanum website) Good luck and have fun!

Obligatory-Ambition's-corpse-is-located-at-Silverlight-statement. Good theory, but I don't think Whimsy fits for Silverlight, but might fit for the shardworld with kite magic - that seems whimsical to me. Of course, Whimsy might be affecting multiple locations, but it does seem that Whimsy would be a shard that wouldn't keep to consistent rules, and scholars focus on finding out how things work.

Hi @matt1. Nice theories, though Hoid is actually from Yolen and dyes his hair, though it wasn't originally white. The reason the royal line on Nalthis can change their hair colour is because they descend from Returned, who can change their entire physical appearance. In theory, Vivenna could also learn to fully change her appearance, and there are hints of this when Azure's appearance slightly changes. I recommend reading the coppermind pages for Hoid and Vivenna, though they do cover material from books you might not have read yet.

And here I was hoping Valour was actually Hoid's daughter - I hoped either Valour or Preservation was either the child or distant descendent of Hoid, since its been implied he was already immortal when the shards became shards - I read that line as a relative who wants to see him again. I don't think Sel will be inactive - they are a major part of the Cosmere's story. I personally would like the cosmic Cosmere story to involve at least four major civilisations (Sel, Scadrial, Roshar, and the Aether planet) with several smaller city states like Taldain, Nalthis, etc., each less powerful and some a protectorate of the big three or four civilisations and some independent but mainly influencing their own worlds, with Threnody the source of the best Hazekillers due to practice fighting both shades and Evil.

*fist bump* ... ... ... what? () [Edit] (I guess you could say you are without honour, but have much valour? )

Glad there is support for this theory now, the question is, has Odium already manoeuvred Dalinar into making those two promises, or only one, or does he still have to make Dalinar abide by both, assuming the contest isn't one of them? I think there are some interesting views in that discussion, but I think its important to remember that certain contracts and covenants don't absolve one of the parties of responsibility just because the second doesn't follow through - there can be consequences, but that doesn't mean the contract is automatically overthrown. You an I on this are in complete agreement. I think Taravangian kept his end of the bargain perfectly, not breaking his word, so even if that didn't apply the contract would still be in effect, but even if his actions did break the contract I don't recall Odium being allowed to deny fulfilling his role in it. I do wonder though if Taravangian even CAN break the contract now? As in, if someone told him that he was setting himself up for destruction because of it, could he, as both parties in the agreement, release himself? This is only partially related to the theory, but have you seen my post on theorising about why Odium is so effective against multi-shard planets? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that Fully agreed!

In honour (... move along) of @thegatorgirl00's interesting and clever observation here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgU9-dWXw4k&t=2h08m48s (and the subsequent flubbed line ) I present the following:

I can't chat for long, I've got a lot to do and also have to continue discussing another theory later (I will be getting back to you @mathiau, I haven't forgotten I'm still working on the specific 2^4 = 16 Dawnshard-Shard relations theory, and about Conquest vs Dominion for Order), but I have to write this now or I will have a lot of trouble focusing on what I have to do. I will be brief, and I apologise if anyone else has covered this idea already. The nature of the true plan of Odium, though not its details, has, to me, been obvious for a long time, tied up to the weakness and fundamental flaw of Honour - making promises you can't keep, BECAUSE TO KEEP THEM WOULD BE TO BREAK ANOTHER PROMISE. I am not Irish - though apparently I do have Irish blood and I would like to learn the language, so please excuse any errors here in content or spelling, but I believe I have the core idea correctly. There is a famous Irish legend about Cú Chulainn and the idea of being under geas - basically a compulsion, being bound to do or not do a certain thing, in Cú Chulainn's case, one of those restrictions was not to eat dog meat. So far so good. However, he was also bound never to reject hospitality - that is, never to refuse to eat what his host presented him. I think you can see where this is going. So, the trick to defeating Dalinar, as Odium himself noted: Therefore Odium will need to bind Dalinar such that, do defeat his champion, Dalinar would have to break another vow he had made, perhaps one already tied into the nature of the contest - that to win the contest, Dalinar would have to take actions that would make him loose the contest - Honour demands that Dalinar do A, but to do A would require Dalinar to violate B, and upholding B is something else which Honour also demands, and to do B would require Dalinar violate A. And the irony of THAT is, unless Stormlight 5 ends on a massive down note - not just bittersweet, but actually "we lost, and now the whole planet is Odium's" note - is that I think Odium's own deal with himself - when he was Taravangian, about Kharbranth - will be what defeats him, his own technique of using an oath to bind someone and defeat them being applied to himself. For those interested, here are the wikipedia entries for Cú Chulainn and for Geasa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cú_Chulainn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geas

Yet there is also a comma - it says "taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any", rather than "taking the Dawnshard known to bind any", implying the "known to bind any" is not a designation of the type of Dawnshard, but an afterthought significant to how it is to be used - so while it might not mean it binds to, it also doesn't mean the other Dawnshards CAN'T bind things - indeed, perhaps this is where their idea of Surgebinding comes from, that any use of the Dawnshards counts as binding the target. As for the singular mention rather than plural, I would say it likely is because the Dawnshard had already been mentioned earlier in the poem - if someone is talking about multiple guns, and then mentions one present at a location, and then says "taking the gun, known to end threats," they likely are talking about the previously mentioned gun - and we should definitely assume there was more to this poem ahead of time. Basically, that comma means it almost certainly isn't describing a unique property of the Dawnshard, as otherwise the comma wouldn't be there. Ahhh! Thanks! ... We aren't using cannon ... there are no weapons her- ... oh, you mean canon! I mention Decay vs Ruin because Brandon changed his mind about what to name the enemy. My main point is that it is possible Brandon reshuffled how the shards broke down, so originally Decay would have lacked passion, but then Brandon realised that Ruin would make sense to have passion, so changed the name. It is a guess though, but used to explain the possible reason Brandon changed the name of what he was going to use. See here: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/187/#e12512. Also, your entry below doesn't invalidate the idea as I mentioned later one, that Ruin is active and passive. After all, imagine if Leras and Ati had taken up different shards - would Leras have been a calm and collected and indifferent Ruin, and Ati a passionate Preservation? Also, I mentioned that to show the idea that Ruin is both active and passive. Also, would you say then that Odium isn't passion, because Taravangian hasn't mentioned passion yet? Ahhh, but we've seen from his perspective that the power rages - just like Sazed saw when he took it up, comparing Presevation to calmness and Ruin to violent rage - Ruin is inherently a raging roiling force, Preservation is inherently calm. Yes, because Passion is about chaos - the main point is that the investiture causes a breakdown in control, because Passion is chaotic - the investiture of Ruin is emotional, and so even its wielder can't control those who are in the grips of passion. Could you imagine Leras screaming in frustration in the middle of a calm discussion? Ruin just seems in the middle of a calm discussion to rage. Also, to all your other points, why do you think both Odium and Ruin spoke of passion? Fair enough, though I do still disagree. Odium was starting to fracture as he bent the shard, but Ati was described as just holding on - Ati was dominated by Ruin, a slave to Ruin and his mind controlled by Ruin, including his emotions, Rayse was trying to force Odium to keep doing what he wanted. I fundamentally disagree with this view - also glass isn't chaotic, it is entirely still. Conquest is about IMPOSING Order - indeed, Mesopotamian and Biblical views on the subject of order view it as something forced upon chaos, chaos was dominated and now is the ordered world. Conquest is about bringing others under your control, and control is order, the same reason passion is chaos. Simply put anything which reduces the number of paths available for something to take, and tries to impose structure on them is order - Cultivation is unique in that she is both order and chaos, using order to increase the number of paths. Dominion wants to divide the enemy, and then put them back together again under it - chaos used to further orders ends - I wrote a post about this a while back: Yet Honour prevents you from changing your word, and it one of the reasons the Fused say Honour and Cultivation don't understand people. Either way, my point isn't that Honour is against change, only that change is something that matters to Honour - again the idea that order requires you to first subdue chaos - there must be a small amount of change, but then no more - change CAN be useful, but only a certain type in a small amount, and then no more. Yes, but that is change to bring what is outside of your sphere of influence into your sphere of influence. If anything it still supports the idea that Dominion is a shard with an opinion on change, while Odium and Autonomy don't care about change at all. That definitely seems like a viable breakdown I want to look into that more and analyse your reasoning on that, but that will have to wait until later, and some do seem a little iffy, but I do like your approach and agree with a lot of it Fair enough I do apologise also for not completing that list, but I just wanted to go to bed. I think I probably should have listed them in a more comprehensible way. I look forwards to that, though I'll have to wait until later in the week to check - I'll also redo my breakdown, and you and @mathiau and I can compare our analysis. Until then, I hope you and @mathiau and everyone else reading this has a good one!

Because it is about WHAT changes. Preservation doesn't want anything to change, or things which are to stop being what they are. Honour likes a little change in behaviour until you reach the right state and then your behaviour mustn't change. Dominion doesn't want relationships to change, Dominion desires a rigid structure of command that is immutable. But Honour doesn't care about heirarchies remaining unchanged, or things staying as they are - Preservation sees heirarchies and oaths as being equally valuable - Dominion doesn't care what you SAID you would do, as long as you do what you are told. You yourself likely value some changes and dislike others. Take a part of yourself, and it will value some types of change, and dislike or be indifferent to others. My main argument is that the neutral shards - neutral to change - like Odium don't care if you change or stay the same, only that you feel. Whimsy doesn't want you to think, but does want you to feel and to partake in change. Mercy doesn't care if you change or don't change, but values your existence. Ruin wants existence to end, and doesn't care if you think or don't think. There can be a complex web of values based entirely on whether or not the subject of the Dawnshard is one that the shard gives any thought to, and this isn't an argument that the Dawnshard of change - I probably should allcaps the Dawnshards to make it clearer when I'm talking about them - was also made by the part of the power that values change, only that CHANGE has a relationship with Preservation and Honour and Ruin and Dominion and Cultivation and Endowment and Whimsy and likely one other, but has no connection within the power to Mercy and Odium and Autonomy and possibly five others. It could even be we could think of the shards as this: O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O With the red the shards that "oppose" or have a negative relation to the Dawnshard, the green those which "support" or have a positive relation to the Dawnshard, and the middle in black those which had no relation at all, and so the two "hands" of change grabbed the top and bottom groups, but left the middle unaffected. Or it could be O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O or O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O My main point is I still would like to draw up a table and see how well the shards match the idea, and if there are eight indifferent or opposed shards, or less than eight supportive and together with the unsupportive make eight. I'm not saying you don't have a point, only that - if the theory is right - we need to see if the shards, when assigned to the proposed Dawnshards, or even just CHANGE, fit smoothly into the idea of eight supportive - weakly and strongly - and eight unsupporting - weakly and strongly and indifferently or if it would make more sense to group them as eight associated - both positively and negatively - and eight unassociated - neutral. In fact - and its late again, so please bare with me if I make some errors here - here is a brief attempt to analyse this. Grey is unsure, green is likely to be the case, red is unlikely to be the place, yellow is it could be argued either way (please review): I might post an updated version later with the rest filled in and a few changed, after giving it more thought and evaluating.

Well you have certainly come to the right place! Welcome!

I suppose, though if my theory is right, the Live / Be Dawnshard prevents him from causing something to stop being, to cause something - or something living or formerly living, like bacon - to end. Although ... wouldn't plants count as living? Ahhh, sorry, I missed that! I think the implication of the poem is actually that Dawnshards bind to living things, rather than bind them - that is, the Dawnshard can be TAKEN, but it doesn't RESTRICT - the "known to bind any being" part I think means known to unite with, rather than what it does to something else. If I am wrong on that, then I believe Live would be that one, as it places a constraint, in a sense, on something to have certain traits - you will Live, or you will Be, in this particular state. I will ignore that but I do hope that even if this is wrong that it is still in the generally correct direction If Change is completely Remake then even if your idea of Change+not-Live doesn't really work since Remake is by definition positive. I disagree - what I am saying is that, when something is destroyed, you could say it has been changed, or no longer lives or no longer exists - destroy is a subset of change; to Ruin, Cultivate, and Endow, are all forms of change. Rysn is interpreting something placed within her, her understanding could well be incomplete, just as vessels can slightly alter how the shards behave. If someone destructive took the Dawnshard, we might see a different interpretation. Also, "better" could well be subjective in this sense - Ruin certainly thought he was making things better - not that I think better is inherently subjective, only that we can't be sure Rysn is 100% understanding what the Dawnshard is. And again, to change something, sometimes it does have to be destroyed to be made better, such as Dalinar - he is better, but for a while, when his memories came back and he truly changed, he was destroyed. I am refering to the prototype of Ruin in one of the unpublished works, what Brandon reworked into Ruin. Either way, you can say someone HAS ruined something, and that something is decaying, and that is the more natural way of thinking of things - Ruin is an active attempt to break, and the state of being broken either intentionally or unintenionally, while Decay can only ever be from apathy or ignorance, never deliberate intent. Ruin spoke of passion Ruin wanted to speed the process up Ruin is okay with things coming to an end Those influenced by Ruin become obsessed and highly driven, emotionally invested in causing harm, such as Marsh laughing and delighting in causing harm to the Terris Keeper, Vin, Goradel. Ruin SCREAMED multiple times, which always bothered me, but makes sense as a shard that cares All those are clearly stated in Mistborn. All shards likewise drive their possessor to cause their trait to manifest, or to act in that way. Ruin is passionate, not Ati, for Ruin twisted Ati to see what was being done as necessary and vital. Ruin doesn't want to delay. Ruin's investiture is EMOTIONAL. No - because Honour, Preservation, and Dominion, the three clearly Order shards, all have clear stances on change that are distinct. Honour believes in an ideal state, so encourages you to change to that state, and then remain there - you are bound, first placed in the right spot and then not allowed to change - become better, then STAY better, and keep your word Preservation believes everything is precious and any change is a loss - freeze everything, lock everything into place, because they all matter as they are Dominion believes in rigid hierarchy and obedience - you stay in your place, do as you are told, command those below you and obey those above, and never step out of line - the hierarchy must be preserved. All three have opinions on change, viewing it is something risky or dangerous, but for different reasons. This is because, if the theory is correct, because they each also have different values on Live or Be, Think, and Feel.