Ixthos

The problem with that is that, if we discount the metals introduced in Era 2, we also wouldn't have time bubbles. There are many metals still to be accounted for - it isn't impossible that one of them, when burned, allows creating illusions. We've already seen Renarin's illusions look a lot like Malatium and gold shadows - implying a link between Voidbound illumination and Malatium or gold - perhaps another metal allows projecting illusions.

The only problem with that is that Raboniel was seeking a weapon to destroy spren, and Odium's forces already have access to metalborn agents. If Leeching could, and medalion technology is known by Southern Scadrians, why wouldn't she attempt to employ that process instead of seeking an alternative? Perhaps, that certainly is a possibility, but I don't think we have enough data to assume that is the case. I do agree it would make sense, but I also wouldn't be surprised if it isn't the case.

My argument isn't that Leechers adn suppressors are different, but that they are the same or work in similar manners. I'm not following the rest of the objection though, I'm afraid? My main point is that Leeching can't be a method to kill spren, or to disrupt the investiture that constitutes them, or else Raboniel or Khriss wouldn't be surprised about anti-investiture. I disagree. Sunlight falls on the Earth, but the Earth isn't saturated with sunlight. Some radiates into space, but I also think, with Stormlight, that Stormlight also is partially absorbed into the gemhearts nearby, or exists as a low background level. Also, remember that once Stormlight is used it goes back to the Spiritual Realm or is changed into energy, like when Surgebinding is used - the Stormlight is used up, but not just evaporating. A third possibility is that the Highstorms also sweep up ambiant Stormlight and recycle it, so not all Stormlight is new, some might be condensed from previously dissipated stormlight. So, possibilities: low level background radiates out into the space around the Rosharan system background investiture slowly absorbed into gemhearts Stormlight converts to other energy when used by gemheart or as a surge Highstorms recycle investiture, drawing up background

I understand :-) just remember to stick to one or the other. I agree that the first person descriptions worked better than the third person, the story probably will work much better from the first person viewpoint, though that ultimately is entirely up to you. I'm going to try for what Brandon recommends in being descriptive rather than proscriptive (that is, I will say how I felt about each part rather than saying how I think you should change it), and to start by focusing on the positive first, then mentioning the negative. Chapter One: Positive: The fight description, the way the actions are described and flow, is well written The reveal that the fight was a training session was well done Retnul's proactivity Missionarying seems like a cool power Negative: The scenes feel like they are happening in empty rooms, just people standing or moving around in a featureless background, no context to their movements or interactions The fight, consisting of two named characters who we haven't been told anything about, feels wonky There is no context given to proper nouns (i.e. Null-Ranks, Melee) which clearly are important to the characters but leave us without any idea what is happening or why they matter The exchange description feels a little clunky, he has a problem and then suddenly he has a solution, when we don't know why that was a problem to begin with, things are very abrupt Describing his skills rather than showing them, told he is smart and knows people and being told rather than shown (Also, minor point, but "Him and Retnul" seems a little clunky, and dawned on means to realise, so implications can dawn on someone, but simply being given information doesn't mean it dawns on them, only if they realise significance behind it, unspoken information causing someone to realise something by the information given.) Chapter Two: Positive: Good descriptions of Rojin and his history, and some context to the idea that the peasantry often have some royal blood in them The gossip about the swordsmith and the affair are nice side details which may or may not be important for the rest of the story, but add realism and are the type of thing that would be discussed Negative: Descriptions are still a little clunky at the start, though they smoother as it goes on Otherwise this is a promising start :-)

Interesting :-) would you be interested in feedback?

Hi guys :-) a while back I made a slight change to my setting, expanding on a point from before, and the setting now - for a while now, but still - has a type of alien dragon in it, based on the idea of alien life being influenced by the "core" of a dragon. I'm still debating if dragons look like dragons because of belief, or if the belief is because dragons look like dragons, or a mixture, but I thought I would mention it. They've added a solution to a problem I've had for a while, and have some interesting interactions with some other species, including their social structure, and their subspecies have given me some new species to add other ideas I wasn't sure where to use a place to bind them. They, along with a race born within a dyson swarm (sort of), are some of the newest species I've added, finally filling out the ranks of my "human-like" aliens (human-like being a very broad term), along with another race I decided should fit that mould after adjusting them into a subtype of another species.

I think they are referring to when TenSoon had OreSeur's blessings, so an additional set on top of their original. But otherwise yes, I agree that blessings can't be swapped, though one can take additional ones on top of their original. This does imply some sort of connection they share, or properties transferred from them to the blessing or vice versa, is present with Kandra and their link to Hemalurgy.

It does seem more like Honour responding to something that they were trying to stop. It isn't like Honour wanted the people to be continually attacked, and it seems, as I recall, that the Heralds actually approached Honour and said "we would like to stop this: empower us to bind the Fuzed on Braize," and Honour obliged. Honour setting up a system to allow them to bind the Fused that then became a cycle seems to be something either the Heralds expected, or an unfortunate side effect.

Just to check, are you referring to Honour or Odium with the shard condemning people to an endless cycle?

Lets put it this way - what would happen if a Leecher touched a spren? We know that Leecher's powers affect across systems, as shown when Nicki Savage touched Nazh's gun, so what would happen to a spren, remembering that spren are stated to be made out of light (with Rosharan spren being made of stormlight (though some should really be made from a mixture of stormlight and lifelight) and voidspren made of voidlight). My assumption is that nothing would happen to them, they wouldn't evaporate - would you agree? So what would happen if a Leecher touched a stormlight sphere? Would the sphere loose its stormlight, or would the stormlight remain? Also, with regards to stormlight evaporating, we don't know if the stormlight returns to the spiritual realm, or if it just loses cohesion, and so it still is present in the physical realm but spread out. In short, we know the stormlight goes away, but we can't say it goes away the same way that leeched metal goes away.

Agreed. In fact I was debating asking what your main point was, as it seemed we were arguing over the same thing. The question then becomes, is the issue about what separates a pot from a knife, or about the properties of iron?

Yes, but the point remains - a chef can make different types of meals, but each meal is still distinct from the others. Bondsmiths manipulate connection, but that doesn't mean they can use one type of connection as another type. [Edit] Indeed, connection is an important part of realmatic theory.

Yet you need to store food and drinks in different metalminds, even though you can store both. Connection is connection, but it seems likely that each type of connection is distinct and can't be swapped with another type.

Something noted by Sazed was that the Well's power - when claimed - was designed to attune someone to the Shard. Also, Rashek only used a small amount of Preservation, and it changed him. Kelsier was also changed, but the power wasn't designed to be usable by him, which was why he had to visit the Iree. I don't think you can unseal a shard, but you might be able to, like Preservation, allow access to some of it to someone distinct from the shard.

Fair enough :-) though I think it is very likely that Brandon will keep the term Hazekiller for anti-invested individual teams (and probably used across the Cosmere just like Fabrial will be used for all investiture based devices), and will have as part of their standard equipment leaching/suppressing technology And I think those will likely continue to be employed, and employed effectively, both against those who are native to their world, and against those form other worlds. Perhaps, though that does seem like saying you can store your connection to someone you hate, thus starting to feel neutral towards them, then tap it to make someone else fall in love with you, or to tap it to increase your connection to Autonomy, etc. [Edit] or store your connection to the planet and tap it for one of the above, etc. Fully agreed :-) Perhaps, though again we have to work with the data we have. It also seems that most of Kaladin's interactions with the suppression systems were determined by how close he was to the fourth oath, as the other windrunners likewise were more resistant. That doesn't address the issue though with leaching and stormlight's potential interactions however.

@Oltux72 Please don't respond like that, it makes it a little hard to follow your points. I used the wrong term again, but by "remove" I mean remove in the same way that Leaching does. For the other examples stormlight is no longer where it was, but is still part of the physical realm, even if it is just incorporated into Chiri-Chiri's stomach. The examples you give, the stormlight is still present or incorporated into something else. With metals though, the metal is gone. And as Khriss knows about Leaching, but sees anti-stormlight as something unique, the effects of leaching on stormlight can't be the same as the effects of leaching on metals.

Again though, what do you think of how the scenes are described? And why do you think the one is more restricted than the other, unable to be targeted? Let us say you are right. That doesn't undermine my main point. I will say this again, and please address this point: I am using the term Hazekiller to refer to someone who doesn't have any internal abilities, but who can use equipment, regardless of the equipment's power source. A Hazekiller - again, defined as someone who isn't metalborn, can't bind a surge with their own innate abilities, has no Breath, etc. - can, alone or as part of a team, stand up to someone who is metalborn, or can bind a surge with their own innate abilities, or has Breath, etc. All side points to this are irrelevant: whether someone is using a gun that fires bullets via conventional means, or they have a gun that using investiture, someone who is trained to use equipment but can't access investiture within themselves can indeed stand up to someone who can provided they are well trained, and well equipped, and in a team. I find it still to think that future Hazekiller squads - again, remember my broad use of that term - on Scadrial or Roshar or anywhere else, won't make use of their own portable leaching cubes or suppression systems. Are you indicating that you believe all connections are the same? Brandon had to think before answering if a duralumin compounder could break into a Kandra. That implies pure connection manipulation wasn't on his mind at the time as the necessary component. I am not saying Kandra can't be broken into this way, I'm saying the only example Brandon agreed could work was using the metallic arts. You could well be right, and anyone with connection manipulation could take control of a Kandra. I just think that feels ineligant and implies Sazed is sending out highly suggestible people into the Cosmere to be his agents, and it doesn't acknowledge the possibility that there is more nuance involved than simply controlling connection. That does bring up a major part of all these types of debates (the second being a tendency of overgeneralise and say that X will always beat Y), and that is operating on inference. After all, if we had never read Era 2 and were discussing this, then we wouldn't know about Twinborn, time bubbles, medallions, ranged leaching, etc. and we still don't know the different alloys for shardmetals yet. There are a lot of logical things we can conclude, but that doesn't mean we can definitively state something can or can't be done. Which I know defeats the purpose of these types of discussions, but I do think it is important for all of us to have in the back of our minds when discussing these sorts of things. Yet Kaladin didn't go into a coma when first facing the device used as Hearthstone. That is clearly a secondary features, something added on - those are not related. Indeed, it also implies that a Leacher could not only prevent a Radiant from using their abilities, but actively deprive them of Stormlight afterwards. Consider, even if - and I don't think this is the case, but let us suppose it is - a Leacher bomb targets everyone indiscriminatorially. Then the metalborn need only ingest more metal and continue after the effect is switched off, while the Knights would have lost all their reserves. I don't think the effect would have to be targeting both, but if it did then it would be to the metalborn's advantage. Stormlight is different from metal, and I don't think we've seen an example of something just remove stormlight aside from anti-stormlight. Thus the effect of leaching could well be the exact same as the effect of suppression, only acting on different fuel sources.

That is what I meant, I just didn't phrase it that way :-P my main point indicating it was to address any counters that Kelsier's example doesn't count because the shard resisted his use of it. Though it should be noted that its resistance to him is what partially allowed him to talk to Spook and to Vin, when his weak link allowed it to be pushed back from him. Though that does then raise questions about Vin being able to talk to Elend. As @Kingsdaughter613 said, it does count, and in fact Rashek was the first person indicated to be a Sliver, hence his title as Sliver of Infinity.

I think that was actually in the epigraphs for Hero of Ages, where Sazed says something like "gone were the days when Preservation could turn away an Inquisitor with a base wave of his hand", or something. I think that was also a reference to the earlier draft where Endowment pointed and Marsh was forced to flee. Either way, while I don't doubt Preservation could do more before being unravelled, Preservation's power, when held by both Vin (fully) and Kelsier (partially and sans the mists), couldn't talk to anyone they weren't connected to strongly, such as Elend or Spook. As Ruin noted, Preservation's power wants to close wounds in other's souls, and thus can't use them. And I think Brandon said that Harmony is able to listen to thoughts using Preservation, and talk using Ruin - it might also be said in Shadow's of Self when Harmony talks to Wax, but I'm not sure.

That is again assuming that leaching is not the same as suppressing, which again I note the scene descriptions imply are identical or related. Perhaps, perhaps not - singer forms don't require stormlight, and half-shards haven't been shown to require stormlight to produce their effect. Either way, that does not take away from my main point, that individuals with enough training and the right equipment can take on someone with their own invested capabilities, whether or not they use a gun that uses gunpowder or an steel push or surge of gravity. This is my point. I misspoke, but my point stands - a large group of Hazekillers - using that term for any team to counter those with access to invested capabilities - can be beaten by a skilled individual, and a less skilled individual can be defeated by a smaller group of Hazekillers. We have - those who are bound to a planet, as it is very clearly dependent on being linked to that planet. In another sense, the metallic arts are all connected to one another due to their shared origins, so a duralumin compounder already has a specific connection they potentially can work through. I am not saying this is the case, only that we can't say it isn't. Note that it is only when used by an Allomancer, not by Preservation itself - Preservation can't widen cracks by themselves, but Mistborn can, who are arguably connected to Ruin due to their ability to burn Atium, and they can't burn other metals of other shards unless they are connected. Also, I will admit my main objection is from the notion that Harmony is sending agents offworld which any shard can just take control of. Either way, it was shown that Preservation can't take control, but Ruin can, because Ruin's power is about widening cracks. Hemalurgy is connected to Ruin, and Mistborn - and arguably Mistings - are likewise connected to Ruin. Ruin was controlling Spook, but weakly, and wanted to widen the cracks. Ruin was also being blocked by Preservation. And it should be noted that there are some things the shards can't do that others can, as mentioned earlier. Again, most of my objections aren't saying "this is the case", but rather saying "we can't definitely say this is or isn't the case, as their are unique circumstances that aren't being considered."

I mean that each system, or perhaps only the multiple systems on Scadrial, Sel, and Roshar - due to the breadth of each of those planet's multiple magic system's applications - can basically do the same things, that there is nothing one system can do that, with sufficient ingenuity, the others can't do as well, or at least replicate a similar effect. Much like how if you have fire you can work your way up to modern technology, if given enough time, just using the tools that the fire allows you to make, and the tools those allow you to make, etc. To be fair, until Era 2 of Mistborn we had no idea Allomancy could make time bubbles. We still don't know what Voidbinding can do, or the different alloys of the shardmetals, or the different programs that Selish powers produce, etc. While Sand Mastery does seem love level, it also potentially is part of a larger system with the Skycolours, and could potentially do more. And while I know Slatrification might be removed, it does seem similar to soulcasting. Not a bad analysis :-) Also, hi from another Luke :-) I will say that different aspects of investiture also potentially can converge on similar mechanics, and allow similar things with slightly different effects. For example, if one is very skilled with metalwork and only has a small amount of metal one can make a lock, or if one is strong and doesn't have great dexterity but does have a large object nearby one can bolt a door. While they are different techniques they nevertheless both involve preventing a door from swinging open. The shards are limited in some ways, but not in others. While Allomancy is powered by Preservation it does allow a Mistborn to take control of a spiked individual, something that Preservation can't do.

As Urithiru demonstrated the effects of countermeasures can potentially be targetted - it is likely that leaching can be targetted to those with a specific type of investiture or even a type of connection. Neither are half-shards. That likely depends on equipment and training of both parties. Kelsier could take down large teams of Hazekillers, while less skilled Mistborn likely could be killed by a smaller team. Each requires unique skills to take on, so it isn't clear which is easier to kill yet, or to slow down or push away. Yet it isn't clear if connection alone is required - it could still depend on the "flavour" of that connection. Who says the shards can't do that? And again, the only shard shown to be able to control someone with a wounded soul - via spikes - is Ruin.

That doesn't address my point though, that the scenes are almost identical. Indeed, for all we know the two mechanics are fundamentally linked - I can't remember if there was any indication that the Knights knocked out by the field still retained their Stormlight. Either way, it seems to be more an inference than a confirmed fact that they are different, based on all the descriptions seeming to relate them. Yet even if they are different, would you not agree that they are functionally identical from a practical point of view - Scadrians and Rosharan's both possess the technology to shut down the use of powers by their opponents. At which point then does technology stop being technology and start being magic? the Cosmere is designed to show that magic and technology are linked. Does the use of aluminium in something mean it no-longer is technology and is now magic, even if it is an ordinary item made of aluminium? If someone picked up an aluminium tin and used it to cut a Mistborn, have they used magic agains them? And the point isn't that they are using magic, the point is they themselves don't possess magic - they are ordinary people using tools. I'm afraid I don't follow? What number do you mean? Again though, that is the use of the metallic arts. Perhaps others can use connection to do this, but that still implies that anyone with a cracked soul can be controlled through sufficiently powerful connection, and also it hasn't been shown to be usable by someone who isn't using the metallic arts. I would be interested to know if another shard could take over a Kandra, and also, if a Bondsmith can steal the spren-bond, if a Bondsmith could cut out the middleman and simply steal the powers of anyone around them, negating the need to control a Kandra.

Why? The scenes were Wax was subjected to the effects of the cube resemble the scene with Kaladin encountering the suppression fabrial. Also, remember how the fabrial affected Syl. If someone were to describe those two scenes to someone else, without saying what is happening, do you not agree they would say they are identical, based on how they are described. Irrelevant - that is a technology in the hands of normal individuals which can allow them to counter magic - if the future SWAT teams use technology to counter a Mistborn, would that invalidate it also? And if we discount half-shards, remember gain that they are also starting to develop aluminium based technologies too, and starting to learn of the impact of aluminium on the magic systems. Ahhh, sorry. It was mainly to demonstrate the idea that a team of normal people can counter a force that the average Knight Radiant would be unable to face alone - that individuals with sufficient training can potentially beat someone with magical powers, even on Roshar. I.e. if we aren't dealing with a Rock-Paper-Scissors scenario, a team of ordinary people fought well against a team of different types of Fused, which themselves would be able to halt or even kill a Knight, therefore a team of well-trained and well-equipped people can counter a single powerful individual if they are sufficiently trained and equipped, whether they are on Roshar or Scadrial. I'm afraid I don't remember the concept of Duralumin compounders being able to do so, if you could provide a link? Also, remember the reason Kandra can be controlled is because the spikes make cracks, and cracks can be used by Ruin regardless of the source - it implies that someone who is insane is also vulnerable, only much less so than a Kandra as Kandra typically have multiple "cracks" due to the spikes. And if the spikes make it special, it also implies that that power has to be linked directly to the metallic arts.