Ixthos

That is a misleading conclusion from that quote, as the Highstorms and Patji show. Brandon has even spoke about this, of the Shards finding sources of power they "always knew" were there and a part of them, yet only just discovered (spoilered for length) Fun fact - that quote also says the Shards power is actually infinite - just an inaccessable infinite. That is irrelevant to this discussion, but even if it were, remember it is also very hard for Kelsier and the Heralds and Knights to leave their worlds. Being hard doesn't mean impossible.

The Cosmere isn't the universe, the Cosmere is a star cluster. The Spiritual Realm transcends space and time: Do you believe the Spiritual Realm is confined to that star cluster, or goes beyond it? If the Spiritual Realm encompasses the entire universe the Cosmere is a part of, and that universe is infinite, then the Spiritual Realm would be infinite.

With respect, how do you know the Spiritual Realm is finite? Indeed, due to the nature of time it could be one could take Investiture from the future and bring it to the past, "doubling" the amount present, and then doing so again and again. One can reach arbitrarily large numbers that way, and if Shards can perform supertasks then they could in theory take a finite amount of power and make it infinite due to the nature of supertasks. Now while that assumes the Shards can take "future" Investiture to the past in the Spiritual Realm, but it also assumes there is only a finite amount of Investiture in the Spiritual Realm as well. We aren't talking about adding to infinity, but rather beginning with something that is infinite - I am aware of the paradoxes of infinity and the various types of infinity. If you already have something of a given cardinality then you don't need to try to build up to it.

I think this answer sums it up best - infinite in some way, but not able to fully utilise it. Either that or access to all the power in the Cosmere (and / or the universe beyond it). If the universe is finite then their power possibly is finite, but if the universe is infinite it may be infinite but not fully accesable to the Shards. That depends - how much power is in the Spiritual Realm? How much can be extracted and how much can be added back in?

Indeed. The reason for Gavilar possessing Gavinor temporarily is mainly for the child champion theories, the fact they are connected, and the creepiness and showing the depth of moral depravity. If this theory is right, I think a Bondsmith - Dalinar - ripping him out of Gavinor and thus freeing Gavinor would be a powerful symbol.

@Trusk'our it may be that - as the Dawnshards are the commands from the Power, that it could override even those attempts. Hoid may be unable to use Hemalurgy, or the Intent of the Dawnshard's imprint actively would prevent Hemalurgy from affecting him, his spiritweb actively rejecting the spike, or passively preventing it from grafting itself to him. For the second plan, Hoid is afraid of Nightblood - and we know even Vessels are afraid - and again it could be the Command of the Dawnshard could negate Nightblood's command if he did use it. We know Hoid can harm Cognitive Shadows, but it seems if something is seen by him to be alive he can't hurt it directly. I don't think he can be altered to be able to harm something he sees as a live due to the nature of how he was affected by the Dawnshard, and it is possible no form of Investiture can change that, even if he wanted to, and we know he wants to be able to do at least a few things the change prevents him from doing (like eating bacon ... delicious bacon ramen ...). It comes down to "can a Shard's power reverse the effects of the Commands of the Power when it was whole, or does a Shard need to reunite with all the others to be able to do this?"

That might be best - all the books are well written, and all do touch on some of those themes, but the last two are pretty explicit. The first four do however tell a complete tale, though in theory each book, if you stop at it, is an effective end to the series. The first book should definitely be fine though. If you have issues with it, the rest will be a problem, but if you can manage it then up to God Emperor of Dune would be fine. The series is a classic for a reason.

I have to give you this warning, because this caught me out of left field when I first read the books as a teen, but Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse Dune are ... more adult oriented than the previous ones, and the previous ones weren't shy on this topic either, but those two ... things get very explicit. Just be warned. To give a significant part of that story (spoilers and adult but I try to be discreet): Please be advised, while the other four books are somewhat mature, the last two should have a content warning.

Ten Orders beats Four Houses! (I do like Harry Potter, but I also prefer Stormlight Archive.) [Edit] Also, @Bacon just a heads up, but that term, even when used to refer to fiction, is still a deliberate reference to the act, as it deliberately invokes the image of the act to compare something to it, so either way it is a distasteful term to use.

Of all the options this one is my favourite, as it adds the question to lead into the next five books while still closing this one, and bookends Kaladin's journey. I like part of this, but not all - I think Dalinar (as KoW(t) was supposed to be the Bondsmith book, and Dalinar's heart was of paramount importance) so I don't think Kaladin is going to usurp Dalinar as Honour's representative (I think that's actually Bondsmith Gavilar whose going to try that) but rather he will still somehow become the storm, just not as a Bondsmith. It would fit the tale Wit told of Fleet. The thing to consider is that Ishar said a Radiant swearing an oath near him would temporarily push back his madness. Szeth - as this is supposed to be the Skybreaker book - likely will swear some oaths near him, but it looks like Ishar's madness isn't blocked for long by an oath being sworn, so unless higher oaths push it back for longer - so when Navani swore her oath and bonded the Sibling it was an early oath and didn't have a major effect for long, but if she had been swearing the fourth or fifth oath his madness would have left for a longer period - it may be that Kaladin swearing an oath is needed to help contain Ishar's madness for a while, as otherwise we will only have a few moments of sanity from Szeth's oaths - unless there are more Radiants around - but Kaladin and Szeth together could buy more time and work together to help Ishar's mind. It also could be that Szeth and Kaladin swear the fifth oath together, that their final two oaths are compliments, their two ideals parts of each other, and collectively grant Ishar even more time sane. Kaladin swearing his ideal to help Ishar, possibly as a form of reconciliation with Szeth, seems to make sense.

Fair enough - we'll just have to see how things go.

No, the quote actually says, "The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do." This definitively states it controls how the magic is accessed, not influencing but actively determining. There is no implication that the Shard is merely an influence, but a direct statement that its role is to set the manner of access. Indeed, by implication the only function the Shards have is setting the manner of access, as the power flows from the Shard and is thus strongly connected with its Intent. The Shards intent is fully predictive of the nature of the magic - again, look at Roshar, where the swearing of oaths, the very definition of someone being honourable being the keeping of oaths, being foundational. Oaths that cultivate a bond, Honour and Cultivation. Breaths are only ever endowed, etc. I don't see what baring that has on the idea of them being the ultimate Hazekillers. Also, could you source that info on when Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell is set? Do we know when the mercenaries are due to show up? (Though it occurs to me my statement is somewhat ambigious, so to clear up what I mean in case that is the issue - I use the term Hazekiller as the generic term for someone, usually uninvested themselves, trained to take down those who are invested. This isn't to say they are the origin or continuation of the original Mistborn Hazekillers, only the same principles idea, as shown likewise in Rhythm of War with the team who almost breached to the Crystal Pillar - ordinary humans with only their training, some equipment, and each other against a group of invested beings, and who almost won.) Ahhh, I'd forgotten about them. Thanks

I don't believe that is confirmed - I think there is more to Sel and the Dor than is immediately obvious, and we have hardly seen all the systems on Sel, so it isn't possible to say AonDor is the exception when it may actually be the rule. Also, could you clarify why you say my explanation of why the magic being tied to Devotion is circular reasoning? Is your argument that the Shards don't influence how the magic is gained or used? If so, that seems to contradict what Brandon has said: Therefore we can conclude that the nature of the Shard determines how the magic is accessed. Hoid likely has many more powers than we have seen. It is likely he already has access investiture originating from her in at least one form, or is still seeking to access it. We can't assume that because we haven't seen him use any magic associated with her - or identified his use of magic associated with her - that he doesn't have access to her magic. Personally I like the idea of the mercenaries being from Threnody as the ultimate Hazekillers. I'm afraid I'm not following - which caravaneers? Otherwise agreed.

I don't see how that is relevant, and it would seem to contradict what we saw in Oathbringer, including what was described as a spren literally weaving itself into their souls to control them. Here is the full quote: Note that this is specifically about a Fused's soul and a Listener. Gavilar and Gavinor are neither. You also need to ask why a Fused can't share a soul, but a Voidspren can. Mistborn: Bands of Mourning and general Mistborn

Yes, but they were still possessed. They still had their minds dominated, and as I said in this theory Gavinor is eventually freed. The point isn't that the overall effects are identical but rather that it is possible for humans to be overwhelmed and controlled by a spren or Cogntitive Shadow. Mistborn: Bands of Mourning

@Frustration a point to consider: From Oathbringer, Chapter 115: The Wrong Passion Note that this is a distinct bond than the bond spren make to form Radiants, as Turash wouldn't be surprised by that. And from Mistborn: The Bands of Mourning (spoiler)

I agree that's possible, but it also could be that - as they were implied to have multiple Dawnshards, though I don't think they were at war, I think it was just Ishar experimenting with the Dawnshards, so less industrial accident and more mad science, though them being at war would be an interesting part of the story - that if you have two Dawnshards you can somehow combine their power. It also could be that Dawnshards actually grant power if you know how to use them, but that Rysn doesn't yet know how to do that, but if you combine them with another magic system then their power is amplified. So, one by itself may or may not grant magic you may or may not be able to naturally use without knowing its there (like Vin and Allomancy, or as she used to call it, Luck), and / or having two grants enormous power, and / or one and another system amplifies the power of that other system. Ashynite Surgebinding is likely completely unrelated to Rosharan Surgebinding in that the Rosharans would consider any magic from elsewhere in the Cosmere to be the binding of Surges - I can't find the quote right now, but I remember reading that Rosharans consider anything which can do what Surgebinding can do to be Surgebinding. The disease magic came after the disaster, so I think that was the point Cultivation's power became involved. Perhaps, though I think there likely is "mostly pure" Investiture elsewhere in the Cosmere, which may lean towards one or more Shards but isn't fully for one or more of them explicitely, which can be tweaked or more strongly aligned to a Shard if it finds it or to a Shard it already is partially related to - as multiple Shards have paid attention to First of the Sun, I think that may be an example, but this isn't clear. Agreed, and the names the Shards have depends strongly on how the Vessel views that natural or set of natural inclinations. When we see a Shards power, like Kelsier seeing Ruin, or looking into Preservation's eyes, or Dalinar observing Odium, that likely is a close insight into the Shard. Kelsier saw Preservation: A note, held perfectly means that if it tries to rise in pitch or become louder it will be suppressed back down. I don't doubt Preservation and Cultivation would form a Shard that would keep the good and build upon it, but Preservation by itself will actively stifle growth if that growth is change to what it is Preserving.

... Ouch.

Or ... do you mean you will have hated reverse causality yesterday?

The ideal Cosmere human can't use healing, but the ideal version of a Feruchemist, gold Ferring, Surgebinder, etc., can. The ideal version of someone, and the way they are now, are not aligned, and this manifests as points on their soul that are "rough", they are like the seeds a crystal can grow around. Because they don't match what the person could be, there is a place where something else can be attached. Once attached you are no longer working towards being the ideal human, but the ideal of a different version of a human, like a Surgebinder becoming closer to the ideal of their Order, a Windrunner becoming closer to the ideal of a human with the power to protect - a manifestation of protection - or a Stornward towards the ideal of someone who is reliable - the manifestation of reliability. This isn't to say the person's self perception and ideal in the Spiritual Realm don't factor in, but rather that we are discussing three separate things, and a fourth component, the fourth being their cognitive perception. The three main elements are the ideal human, the ideal version of themselves (which is connected to the idea of the ideal human but distinct from it, as it is an instance of it) and who they currently are spiritually. As we know and you mentioned, a gold Ferring or a gold twinborn can heal from a Hemalurgic spike, even though that damages their spiritual component - the healing actually alters their spiritual component. But we also know that it is filtered through their cognitive perception - Rysn couldn't be healed because she now say her paralysed legs as a part of her. Her ideal self has functioning legs, but her cognitive perception hinders that. Still, to your point, it could be there is still room to "attach" something to the ideal human, but perhaps the ideal human already would be someone who could use Investiture, and the attachments are more in line with bringing someone into that ideal.

I would imagine anything is possible - I think seeing different types of Cosmere cyborgs would be cool, and this would make it at least three hypothetical types. If it just involves Fabrials and a resealer, I don't see why it wouldn't work. Nice idea (though I don't think I'd want to be one it would be interesting seeing how the spren interact with being inside a Fabrial that is someone's body, especially if the Fabrial starts to be seen as a part of them).

Hmmm ... they all certainly do have potential they also allow exploring how cultural views on valour and mercy change over time, and what is and isn't seen as valorous. 1. I like that, the first people to be influenced by Valour, and the forging of the first weapons or items as well, and the foundational myths that later cultures use, so heroes of that time become seen as deities or legends later. 2. To add to that, this can also be when Mercy or an Avatar shows up, changing the magic or adding a new one in, and then factoring in the idea of valour being more complex than just bravery in battle, but also bravery in moral choices. I like the idea of the artefact she gets being something new, the first item to not just be exclusively of Valour but of Valour and Mercy, and the battle she thought she had to face with it turns out to be a different one than she thought, with her defeating whoever is attacking her people requires showing mercy too, and perhaps winning over other tribes or peoples who her people had previously been antagonistic towards, and the culture starting to move more towards a one of a more unified culture - still tension, but also the idea your opponents aren't just going to attack you for glory 3. Yes! The idea that Valour is now seen in the context of all possible paths someone in the culture can have, and the risk and way of fighting it isn't physical. The idea this is a threat from mercy when the culture owes a large part of its existence to Mercy can also add extra dynamics, as the issue then isn't that Mercy is always a good thing, especially if someone sees killing someone who doesn't want to die as a Mercy. And I really like the idea of an old warrior ghost who has to adjust to this new way of life the people have, especially if they are form the pre-Mercy days, so one who says Valour doesn't need Mercy, look at the threat we are facing, it is from Mercy! But then seeing that it isn't just one or the other, but both that are needed. And the ghost can also - especially if ghosts are more rare - let the Journalist, who has their own ideas of what the past was like, see that the past wasn't either as bad or as good as they supposed.

@CryoZenith Your idea of a base level of damage all people have due to differing from the ideal version of yourself makes sense, and I think cracks are more a way of thinking of the nature of these "flaws" in a more poetic way, little imperfections that allow connections and access to deeper parts of the person. The deeper the cracks the more quickly one can connect to deeper elements of someone's soul, but even the small cracks allow some access, and as a spren becomes a part of someone the deeper its connections go.

Cool, thanks

True, but it also could be something Honour only saw as a problem when he made the visions, and we know the visions came after the Recreance. Also, side note, but we also know Honour had future sight, as does Cultivation, so it could be more a problem as he sensed Surgebinders would become stronger after he died and one of the most dangerous uses would be future sight. It also could be his Intent made him more focused on making vows that didn't consider the future.