Ixthos

Odium noted Dalinar's power would bind Dalinar eventually, and while Shards can break their words but become vulnerable in the process, so too can Knights Radiant become bound by their oaths unless they want unfortunate consequences - as you noted, damaging you, and your spren's, spirit web. For example, if Dalinar broke his oaths, what would happen to the Stormfather, which is a spren necessary for the functioning of Roshar. As Odium put it, Rhythm of War Chapter 112: Terms Dalinar's promises, perhaps or especially those made before he became a Bondsmith, likely bind him just as tightly as those made afterwards. I think, if this does unfold, a key point will be that the Stormfather is beginning to understand that oaths can be broken for noble reasons - the thing is, until recently, that was something he couldn't process, and might still have trouble with. The whole point of the Stormfather and spren in general is an inability to accept that people breaking oaths is anything less than a horror, as they can't. We understand this naturally to a lesser extent, as to a spren any breaking of an oath is like someone you know saying "jump and I'll catch you," and then letting you fall. "Why didn't you catch me? You said you care for me and don't want me to fall? You hurt me!" "Well, yes, but-" Even if it was a personal promise, Dalinar might have told Taravangian about it before, or Odium could see into Dalinar's mind at the time he made the oath, considering his intense interest in Dalinar, or, most likely, Taravangian is betting on the type of man Dalinar is, or as you say Odium can sense it. Either way Dalinar knows the oath he made - I can well believe Dalinar would see to break a private oath to be just as much to betray a promise as breaking a public one, and the Stormfather likely can sense the web of oaths Dalinar has made, and at least at first try to hold him to it. That was me, when I was suggesting two added elements to the theory, being the attempt to steal the Stormfather - and if Gavilar tries Dalinar may not be allowed to stop him because of Gavilar bonding him first and Dalinar's oath to give way to Gavilar - and possessing Gavinor. I like that take on it. Hopefully if he does try this it either is a slow thing over the course of Dalinar realising he has to face Gavilar - so nine or eight days before the competition Gavilar makes himself known, possessing Gavinor, and per the terms of the agreement Dalinar can't stop him as he is the chosen champion - and he has to come to terms with Gavilar slowly leeching the bond, or it is a reveal right as the battle is about to start, suddenly seeing Gavilar and Gavilar trying to take the bond and declare himself Honour's representative. I hope it's the former as this would add further layers to Dalinar's worry, as in many ways Gavilar was the catalyst for Dalinar becoming who he should be, and having to face the antithesis of this in the very man who Dalinar idolised ... it would add further layers and questions as to what Dalinar could do. A few points It depends on how foreshadowed it is in the book itself, and when the reveal is. If the prologue hints that he survived, or shows him surviving, and the interludes involve him, it would make sense. Each book should be stand alone in many ways though still connected to the others Gavilar doesn't have to fight physically, but emotionally and spiritually - no opponent could hurt Dalinar more emotionally, and Gavilar has primacy over Dalinar because of Dalinar's private oath to always give way to Gavilar. If Gavilar takes the Stormfather, could Dalinar stop him He couldn't - if Gavilar possesses Gavinor, and Gavilar is someone Dalinar swore to always obey (see earlier in the thread where the quote is), Dalinar would be helpless.

Glad to hear it! Do you have any suggestions to modify any of the above, or a suggested system you'd like to make?

... Optimist

Yup it would also add a nice sense of thoughtfulness as well to the mix, that it isn't just mindless bravado or combat, but real people with real insights and beliefs, and being honoured among one's peers, the wisdom of former generations. Yes! This also adds to the idea of it being a cultural thing, that there is depth to the people who use the items, and a lore behind the construction of the weapons - it could even add in some Odin parallels with having lost of limb or an eye to gain the material needed, but also respect from the Valour Shades when you do it. That would be so cool! And again, it builds towards the idea of the people having a complex culture, that they know they need to mix their love of combat with the need to value life, even the life of the enemy, and that there is strength in being both brave and merciful. I like the idea of tying the Iriali into it too.

Glory

Success!

Thanks! One thing we can be sure of is that Brandon is a master of clever twists. I'm pretty sure this is going to happen, but If this twist isn't it, we can be sure whatever he does come up with will be just as amazing!

Yup I think we're probably going to have Dalinar stuck between oaths - does a private oath, made to oneself when one needed something to reign them in, still apply when the person you swore to give way to is actually a monster? I think there may be some Szeth parallels, too, as Szeth likewise felt himself unable to choose not to disobey. We'll probably see Taravangian seeming to get the last laugh, and then ... BAM! Taravangian's promise when he was a mortal with Odium turned about on him. The trap used on Dalinar suddenly applied to himself.

From Oathbringer chapter 26: Blackthorn Unleashed Dalinar swore that he would give way for Gavilar in all things.

Record

Agreed, though unfortuanitly it's implied that there are very few planets that have multiple Shards, and I think only Sel, Roshar, and Scadrial have multiple Shards, ignoring Avatars. The rest likely are only on single worlds. Though if Avatars can power systems, Mercy and Valour would be a brilliant system. That would be so cool! Expanding on your last point, it could also be that the previous wielders of the weapons who become Cognitive Shadows attached to the weapon can be summoned forth to fight with the current wielder, or to offer them advice. Their "Valhalla" isn't in some other world, but right in the present, fighting the people their people have fought for generations. Combining ideas could let there be multiple systems on the planet, or the weapons are one system with associated Cognitive Shadows, and near to the Perpendicularity there is an effect that produces the Valour Shadows from the battles that took place near it. Maybe even those who drink from the Perpendicularity - who brave its dangers - can gain powers, but at the risk of dying from the liquid.

I get that, and that is what I was implying. I actually mentioned that in a previous topic. Either way Dalinar acts Taravangian sees himself winning. It depends on if Taravangian can see Kaladin going to Ishar. Future sight shows possibilities, not certainties, but one also needs to know how someone thinks, and Rayse likely didn't understand the man Dalinar had become. If Dalinar is bound by an oath to Gavilar never to oppose his brother again, his nature as a Bondsmith may prevent him from stopping him. If Gavilar uses Dalinar's perpetual subservience and his own bond with the Stormfather to try to claim him, Dalinar may not be able to stop him. If Gavilar is in the body of Gavinor, Dalinar has two beloved family members he has to somehow kill to win. This could also play into the flashbacks that would have occured during book 5, as Dalinar's flashbacks feature his relationship with his brother prominently. And if Dalinar does kill Gavilar, what happens to his bond to the Stormfather? What happens to his ability to enforce Honours decision? (Also, if my half joking idea of the planet's rotation stopping happens, then he can prevent the contest from ever happening - a perpetual day 9, and the contest is forever out of reach. Or he gains a year, due to the nature of how orbital mechanics and tidal locking works.) That is one possible answer. I don't know if it will happen, but it is a possibility.

Hmmm ... that does seem to imply that the Fused were a threat humanity couldn't face until given access to the Surges. Your suggestion about only later giving them Voidlight does make sense, and I wonder if that is something Odium planned? Make them more and more dependent on him by slowly granting them more of the gift. Though we do know the Stormfather's memories are self-admittedly incomplete and possibly mistaken. Maybe, but think of it this way - if Desolations consist of humans (with Singer allies) fighting Fused (with Singers who support them, and possibly some humans), then the more Singers on the Fused side as opposed to the human side, the harder the battle. If there are Singers who don't want anything to do with the battle but then some human comes along and kills their families, they are more likely to join the Fused early, rather than try to remain neutral or siding with humanity. That I think is more about Singers who serve Odium being allowed to leave, rather than Singers being Odium's by default (as you suggest by noting Singers who served Honour as well). One could also argue Singers who served Honour or Cultivation were human allies, at least nominally, or who were allies but only provided logistical help. Most Singers ultimately did side with Odium, so Singers who followed Honour, and then seeing Honour's adopted people attack them, likely turned from Honour and from Cultivation. There could be Singers who followed Honour and Cultivation but saw both sides as in the wrong, and then sided with the ones who didn't try to kill them because "we all know you REALLY serve Odium! Otherwise you'd be helping us!"

It may not directly apply to the way people interact with the magic, but it does influence the magic. For example, Ashyn's diseases are influenced by Cultivation even though it is also a form of "passive" investiture, much as the Aviar's worms are magic from a symbiotic creature. Roshar's ecology drew Honour and Cultivation - before they powered magic systems - because it is about symbiotic bonds and cultivation of life through those bonds, as seen with Greatshells, Skyeels, etc. Shades are rules and behaviour focused, likely due to being made from Ambition's investiture. I think the nature of life on worlds where Autonomy's investiture - rather than unaligned and unkeyed investiture - is present are likewise affected. Also, we do know Trackers are individualists who try to kill each other, so I do admit there is certainly a form of autonomy present. Hmmm ... Shards do in theory have access to infinite amounts of power, and infinity (a topic I love to discuss) is complex with regards to how things relate. Endowment does push energy into the system, but also takes it back out with the Returned consuming Breaths, so it is a little hard to say if the entire Cosmere is neutral, but fair enough. Is there enough power in the Spiritual Realm to fill the entire Cosmere with energy, or enough capacity to fold all matter into the Spiritual Realm and leave the Physical and Cognitive Realms empty? The thing is, we haven't seen an example of Preservation interacting by itself with a world that is growing and changing. We've seen Preservation put energy into a system to prevent loss, but we haven't seen Preservation try to, for example, smother a fire. Would smothering a fire be a positive act or a negative act or a neutral act? If a world was building up, and a villainous version of Preservation froze it in time, would that be positive or negative or neutral? In any event, I wasn't trying to say Shards are in and of themselves end-positive, etc., only that the ACTIONS can be considered positive or negative. I am arguing that Allomancy, mechanically, matches a combination of Ruin and Preservation better than it does simply matching Preservation itself, and likewise the reverse for Feruchemy.

Agreed on all points. For the pen and paper one, I could see a type of series of books, each covering a world and running the season for it during a different era - so Roshar during the Desolations, during the False Desolation, during the Heirocracy (if you don't want Surgebinders but do what to explore Roshar as a normal human plus Shardblades and Plate), etc., or Scadrial during the Final Empire, or Era 2 (like Crafty Game's RPG, only with a twist I'll explain in the next paragraph), etc. and each covers the entirety of the planet or solar system, including the local Cognitive Realm. Each covers what powers, organisations, and characters one may interact with, and what is generally known about the Cosmere, so no widespread anti-lights before Roshar's current era, though perhaps characters could still "accidentally" discover it. Then, have all the systems be compatible with each other, and have two other books - a Cognitive Realm book centred on Silverlight, but covering and connecting to each Cognitive Realm of each other world, and a timeline of how those eras relate. So you could have characters from one era of one world and those from another world corresponding to that same era, and would need both those other books, but this would let one run a game that features Silverlight and potentially interacting with other characters who have whatever form of longevity is common there. The last book would be Mistborn Era 4, covering space travel and the organisations that cover several planets, so it too would be a companion to the world books, but would also cover areas that only could be settled in Era 4, like bases in space, megastructures, etc. Sounds cool though how do you factor in the "physics" involved, or is that at the game master's discretion?

We know the people the Fused used to be couldn't use Surges, but it isn't clear if, once they became Fused, they didn't immediately have the Surges. We know the Singers knew that humans came with power they were forbidden to use, and likely the humans were also forbidden to use them again considering what happened, and while spren eventually gave humans the Surges, and the Heralds only gained their blades when the Fused became a problem, it likely is that they knew of the Surges - as the spren embody these ideas before they bonded humans and gave them the power - and it could be that they made passive use of them, with Odium's gift being both immortality and access to power. After all, if it was a singular event then it couldn't have just been to give them immortality and then later give them their unique forms of power as Fused - we could even say that this act was to turn them into spren, and so when they possess a Singer it is in a way giving the Singer a form of power. Without it, what form would a possessed Singer have? This could even tie to the idea of the spren "betraying" the Singers, denying them access to passive abilities they previously had used that would have been helpful fighting humans. In short, do we know that the Fused - when they were Fused rather than just angry enemies of humanity - didn't have the Surges, or that becoming Fused is what gave them access to the Surges? Also, I just would like to add this to the theory, but I think https://coppermind.net/wiki/Alakavish is interesting in light of this theory - I propose Alakavish likely began a war between humans and Singers prior to one of the Desolations, and this is what caused more Singers to initially enter that Desolation on the Fused side than those who otherwise would. Perhaps the war was with other humans, but we know the Singers still had viable communities up to and including during the False Desolation.

The key is likely to make it that Dalinar CAN'T win - either stop the planet's rotation on day 9, or get Dalinar to be locked in two competing oaths, so that to win he has to do X, but doing X would break an oath he is forbidden from breaking, and to not do X is to break another oath.

Reviving this topic as I really want to discuss this again, but I didn't want to make a new topic when this one still exists. I added a poll as I think it would be interesting to see which everyone prefers - a computer RPG where you can visit and see the worlds, and if online play with or against others, but are limited to the worlds and magic systems programmed, or a pen and paper one, where you have the art from the book though no 3d setting, and can visit any world and use any magic system.

That does make sense. It may be that this was when the Singers - or a group of them - officially sided with Odium. We know the Singers were initially forbidden from using Surges, and Odium is reluctant to spend his power, even being very sparing with providing Raysium. These events could have combined into a single event - those Singers who chose to reject Honour and Cultivation and gave themselves to Odium for a chance at revenge were transformed, a single act of Odium expending his power to transform them, and only granting them one Surge each. After that he had what he wanted, and they now had the power to fight on the front they wanted but had been forbidden.

It could have been a single event at the tail end of a long series of skirmishes. It likely began with Singer resentment of humans drawing more spren to themselves (and a general resentment that their world had become a refugee dumping ground for the Cosmere - I think Aimian is the Rosharan general term for alien, with all the western areas being human or Aimian based). Slowly building resentments leading to a war leading to a horrific war crime that then caused several Singers to become Fused sounds plausible - I don't think the war started with Singers choosing to become Fused, but rather Singers who had been fighting becoming Fused as a final commitment, embracing Surges that Honour and Cultivation had forbidden them. Could you provide the quote when Raboniel said that to Venli? I'd like to examine it with you and see if we can find the shape of how things may have happened.

I don't think it has to start with a majority of Singers angry enough to attack humanity - I linked to a post I made previously, but my supposition is that it was, in effect, initially a type of terrorist war. All you need are hot heads to escalate the conflict. A few humans brutalise several Singers, possibly over a period so not just one attack. A division of the Singer armed forces or civilians retaliate on the humans responsible, or humans they think are responsible, only they may have also hit several innocents, or make the initial attackers even more aggressive. Revenge escalates revenge, and magic is thrown into the mix. The war didn't need a single massive event, only a series of increasingly horrific attacks from one side against the other. That would be fascinating. It would make for an interesting counter, showing how the old war mirrors the new.

Summary: Not every Singer and Singer community served Odium during the Desolations, and not every human or human community served Honour and Cultivation. It was as the war progressed and more and more humans and Singers on both sides saw ALL members of the other species as agents of their enemies the more that became a self fulfilling prophecy. I was reading the thread on why the Knights Radiant seem stronger than the Fused, and the topic came up about how a Skybreaker could have or should have gone to the Singer cities and villages and wiped them all out, ending the threat forever. Putting aside how evil that would be, I think that actually happened. I think early Surgebinders - before Ishar forced order upon them - were simply individuals who used the power of the Surges however they and their spren saw fit, and if they thought all Singers were the enemy, well ... We have to remember a few key facts: Originally Odium came along with the humans, and at least a few humans followed him Honour and Cultivation were for the Singers before humans arrived, and the Singers knew nothing of Odium At some point Honour and Cultivation became the deities of the humans on Roshar, and Odium became the deity to the Singers Or, perhaps, each was only the deity to most of their future aligned peoples ... This changeover couldn't have happened all at once. I have previously speculated on how the Desolations started (see here) and I would like to expand on that. I think, as the initial conflict wore on, as spren started to side more with humans to protect them, some took extreme action. I think, at the start, humans and Singers were allies and enemies of both sides of the conflict, that there were Singers who cared for and protected humans (including Singers who would eventually go on to merge their bloodlines with humans and produce Horneaters and Herdazians), and possibly humans sympathetic to the attacked Singers (assuming Singers were the initial victims) or who formed their own faction (if humans were the initial aggressors). Not every human and not every Singer was on each binary side of this conflict, and that is also assuming it was a conflict with only two main sides. We know from Dalinar's visions (see Oathbringer chapter 38, Broken People, to see a vision of humans fighting humans) that humans were among the enemies of the Knights Radiant during at least one Desolation, and we know some Singers and humans tried to escape the conflict entirely and become one people, which they did. I think, therefore, it is highly likely that Desolations CAN'T be reduced simply to a human vs Singer war, but rather a pro-human civilisation and an anti-human civilisation side, and possibly a human-supremacist side as well, at least at the start. Thus attacks on all Singers, even or especially neutral Singers, may have occurred during some Desolations, including when Surgebinding become common and before the Orders were formed, and this helped escalate the war and make it even more polarised. Add to the fact that it could be that some friendly Singer communities became subverted by possession by the Fused if they were tricked into it, and this could add a greater tragedy. So, I think the idea that the war was originally just Singer vs human is likely incorrect, and the attitudes of some Singers and humans who believed it was entirely a human-Singer war were the ones who eventually made it that way, but until then humanity wasn't alone, it has Singer allies, and Odium's forces either were one force that slowly changed composition from humans to Singers, or were two forces that, when the human side was fully destroyed, became entirely Singer. Either way, I think the idea that all Singers supported Odium in the Last Desolation, regardless of any Desolations before, is a mistaken one, just as there were humans who sided with Odium during the Desolations prior.

I remember that one - it also has a cool design, though if I remember correctly in Platinum it's type didn't change based on the appliance, but in Heart Gold / Soul Silver it did. Thanks part of me naturally thinks of Valour as a twin to Honour, but I think mentally viewing Valour more as a "barbarian" Norse type of warrior focus - if warrior focused - would differentiate it from Honour's knights. Whimsy is a little hard to come up with without random being a part of it - though it isn't clear if Whimsy fully embraces randomness and the erratic or is more about just general novelty. I'm going with random for the moment, but I wouldn't be surprised if Whimsy is more about something "consistent", but amazing - each system associated with it, if several, being extremely odd, but still logical, much like looking at different ecosystems on Earth, with very odd things, seemingly designed to be whimsical, but still consistent and a stable system. @bmcclure7 nice ideas I especially like the Dakhor-mercy idea, the interesting twist on sacrificing oneself, and the Valour requiring manifesting valour each time.

I would argue that is the definition of neutrality - if nothing changes then when you compare the past and the present you have a net zero change - neutrality. Ruin wants decay, the difference becoming a negative, and together we've been informed Preservation and Ruin can produce a net positive. Giving energy to something to prevent it from decaying is ultimately trying to counter the decay rather than to increase it for its own sake - Preservation isn't Cultivation or Endowment, though I think even Endowment involves some negatives. This actually adds to the irony, as the magic then is even more focused on one being dependent on another. Power that another being exercises on your behalf, possibly at your request, is not the definition of autonomy. I don't doubt it will make sense later, with Autonomy's nature explored and more insight into why it or its Avatars produces the magic they do and act the way they do, such as their meddling with others, given context, as perhaps the autonomous Avatars of Autonomy exercise the hypocritical type of autonomy, while others are more in line with the more positive sides. I like your ideas - one where Mercy shows up personality or directly intervenes, and the other where the valour is applied to the consequences of the power. Also, heads up to everyone, but I made another topic a day ago to provide more fleshed out systems based on the main Shard worlds. You may find it here: https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/105602-what-if-expansion-on-hypothetical-magic-systems-topic

What if ...? Expansion on "Hypothetical Magic Systems" topic Brief intro - I recently posted a topic about hypothetical magic systems that the four recently revealed but not shown Shards (plus the hypothetical Wisdom Shard) may produce, see here, giving a bare bones description of how the magic may be accessed or used in line with the Shards' intents. It wasn't intended to be a full description of intricate Cosmere magic systems, and we also know Brandon has said only Aethers remain of the more complex and powerful systems so far not yet shown, so all other systems are likely to be relatively minor. With that said, @DiePie mentioned they weren't that impressed with the descriptions I gave. Fair enough - here are some more slighty fleshed out magic systems, using the following ideas: Magic systems based on the five above mentioned Shards (Invention, Mercy, Valour, Whimsy, and Wisdom), How the power is initiated and what is needed to use it, and some restrictions on it, are based on the Shards, but what the power can do is not No longer being restricted to just a single Shard, but allowing multiple ones to power the system Set on existing Cosmere planets, but assuming that the Shards originally there are now gone, so it is just the above five So, lets look at some possible magic systems. Here are a list of the planets and the nature of their focus or their influence: Scadrial - metals must be involved, with different metals having different properties Sel - shapes Roshar - spren Nalthis - command and colour Taldain - the sand and the lichen living on it Threnody - being turned into a Shade First of the Sun - Aviar and their symbiotic worms Ashyn - diseases