Ixthos

This. This is now one of my favourite Cosmere theories. I like this theory so much! The question becomes if this is true: are they still connected to Devotion and Dominion and / or Sel and the Dor, and did their quest and belief begin before or after Devotion and Dominion were splintered - is this perhaps something Aona and Skai were planning from the start?

Strangers who were there first, at least long enough to establish a presence with the local population, as well as those from his own world actively looking for someone else, implies he doesn't own that dimension. As there isn't time travel - or at least time travel hasn't been introduced as part of the setting - it seems like this isn't a world he bought for himself, but rather someone else's which he gained access to.

Fish lovers unit! Fish is not my favourite food, but it is nice I'm not so sure, though it could be that. I personally think he likely was near to fish just before it happened (or maybe this setting has anthropomorphic fish assassins and he just escaped an attack by them). I think he was probably in some sort of aquatic setting just before he arrived. Also, I'm not so sure he owns the dimension he's currently in. He my have assumed he did because the handbook mentions things that jogged his memory, but remember he also made several assumptions about himself and his situation before that, so it is possible he just assumed it was his. If he woke up holding car keys to a car, he likely would assume the car was his, even if he had just stolen it - he knows these dimensions are supposed to be isolated and only allow access to those who have the key, but that is already questionable with the other people in that dimension. Somehow they got in, and were there first - it probably isn't a place he bought. Hmmm ... could be, though it seems a bit odd. "All right, this is my last meal before I leave for good. What should I have ... what should I have? Any suggestions?" "Well, our fish is excellent." "I don't like fish. Its always got some hidden bones ready to stick you, and it comes apart too easily. And the taste! Eeew!" "So ...?" "I'd love to have some! Sign me up!"

First, putting aside how he is wrong, and fish - when cooked properly - is amazing (and lets not forget sushi), it is interesting that his first thought upon awakening or becoming conscious is that he doesn't like fish. So, what was happening moments before? I assume fish somehow tie into it, but he was in the middle of burning plant matter, so it probably happened just before or was related to just before he arrived. So, for what reason was how much didn't like fish the first thing he thought about?

I've added a quote [Edit: two quotes] from Brandon at the end of this post which implies only physical realm inhabitation is going to have an affect on the Cognitive Realm, but baring that I don't think that would be a major issue setting wise - the Cosmere is filled with people whose actions have impacted others where in theory they didn't have any stake. I'm afraid I don't see why that would be an issue? The planets also move through empty space, tracing ovals around their stars, and that space isn't constrained by the planet and yet it also isn't affected. Why would the planet's presence be an issue? I imagine they already have been doing that if they are going to do that at all, and we haven't received any info on that being a factor - maybe items left by themselves in the Cognitive Realm which aren't alive will disappear without Investiture to maintain them. Trains would also likely reduce this - if not people using the bins on the train, then if it did cause an issue the managers of the railway would notice litter disrupts their train tracks and take steps to prevent it. If someone littering caused problems with your business you have a lot of incentives to keep it down, and trains in and of themselves likely would reduce the amount of litter someone travelling between two points produces. This quote more or less sums up the situation, and why this shouldn't in theory be an issue. In essence Brandon doesn't think the space between planets will be meaningfully affected by people travelling between them. [Edit] A second quote about how space is too big for human understanding to fully understand and impact it:

Spren cities have human visitors, and it isn't implied that the locations were settled and then expanded but rather that they just set up there for whatever reason - neither human nor spren presence seems to have had a lasting impact on Shadesmar's size based on the Cognitive Realm inhabitants, so it may depend entirely on the Physical Realm inhabitants. There are also caravans, travellers on foot, etc., and they don't seem to have issues walking from one planet to another. On a train they likely wouldn't see or think much about the area the train moves through, and even if they did their attention would likely be on the train, and any changes could affect the "area" of the train, assuming those thoughts would have an impact. I suspect a slow caravan across Shadesmar with several people in it would have a greater impact - if they do have an impact - than a train moving at speed and hardly spending time across any area that corresponds to several lightyears. Agreed - it is the accumulation of thoughts, and over time - it isn't instantaneous. We also don't know if it is "distributed" as well, if a small area being thought about will expand more than a large - lightyear long - area being thought about.

"Murder on the Shadesmar Express", and "Mystery of the Azure Train" It does, or rather, it doesn't - space concatinates where minds aren't present or they aren't thinking about it, and that allows one to walk from planet to planet: Bearing in mind vanish doesn't mean it is now a hole in Shadesmar, but rather is now no-longer reflected there, and so the place would be desolate ground.

I appreciate those quotes but this still doesn't make any sense to me. Maybe this is covered somewhere in Warbreaker, its been a while since I read it, but Kalad's Phantoms would stick out more clearly to anyone watching if the individual pieces of stone were held together by Breath, especially to the rare seventh heightening person who saw them. And it still doesn't answer how the bones got into the stone to begin with. I know those quotes don't support my theory, and I suppose this means the theory is likely wrong, but it always seemed to me that the bones had somehow been phased into the stone - rather than stone cemented around them - and then Awakened. The Breath could then "soften" the stone at the joints when they were ordered to move in much the same way the bones could have been placed in the stone, or perhaps break them and then function as sinew, then repair them later when they stopped functioning as soldiers. Brandon's quotes make this unlikely, but his answer raises more questions - how did the bones get in the stone?

Solid as in the space being ground? Likely very - consider the oceans of Roshar being solid ground for the spren upon which they build their cities. If it isn't observed then it becomes solid - it is only where life and people live that regions expand and become oceans of mist or beads or any other substance. Space, which is even less observed than the physical oceans, is likely very stable both in size and composition. Real world trains tracks have gaps in them to accommodate their lengths changing as they heat up or cool down, so slight changes in distance likely wouldn't be a problem. However I don't think this would be an issue between planets. The Cognitive Realm changes very slowly - there is a delay before changes in the Physical Realm filter through, and belief takes a while to affect them likewise. Space, being unobserved across the lightyears that separate planets, likely is incredibly stable, and likely only changes slightly over any given period, enough for any issues to be corrected over time. For the space between subasterals to change significantly would require large scale observation of the space between planets - and the inhabitation of that space - across millions of kilometres.

Breath can be used to change memories, such as with Vasher and the child - it isn't just joined statues, but actually getting the bones in the stone to begin with, and in a way that wouldn't just open easily again afterwards. [Edit] Basically I'm arguing that Breath can affect more than we suspect. Its the amount of Breaths and the robustness of the material. Lifeless can be awakened with only one Breath and naturally follow complex commands due to their brains. Wood likely would require more Breath and would be less flexible with their commands, and wouldn't have that much of an advantage in combat.

We'll just have to see. What's nice about the Cosmere is that technology changes over time - maybe this will be one of the earlier methods that gets changed later.

For the first point, remember that Kalad's Phantoms were Lifeless made of bones encased in stone - the bones somehow got inside the stone, and then the statues were able to move. I think Awakening can affect the properties of the material very profoundly - it likely can make solid material soft and soft material solid as required. For the second point, I think you likely can - I don't see why the material would now follow the command if phrased correctly.

Considering Scadrial's history with canals and trains, and the Cognitive Realm's nature as a generally solid surface between planets, I wouldn't be surprised if a large amount of Cognitive Realm travel between planets is actually handled by a railway line set up in the Cognitive Realm, with stops being at the perpendicularities under the railways control or granted access to the railway by the local planetary governments. Consider, you board by entering a perpendicularity on Nalthis, wait at the train station, then take the express to Taldain to meet with a business partner. Or take the train to Silverlight where you will be giving a presentation on your research into new metal applications, with guests arriving on the 18:00 from as far away as Sel and Threnody. Perhaps take a train around the local areas in Shadesmar rather than out to other planets, and pay a visit to Lasting Integrity on your way across the Bead Bridge to Urithiru. I certainly think there will be airplanes in the Cognitive Realm eventually, perhaps to try to see what the Cognitive Realm sun actually is, but until then it seems a practical and grounded solution based on existing technologies. What do you think? Could this work? And would it be an interesting solution to travel time issues in Shadesmar?

Oh, it gets better! Alice and Bob have a rich history. Spoilered for length from this source: https://web.mit.edu/jemorris/humor/alice-and-bob

Makes sense as being at least partially why they did it, and could be the main reason. They certainly realised they were becoming too powerful and their actions could have unintended consequences - fearing that power may serve Odium, and the damage they could do under him, would be a valid reason for both humans and spren to try to end the Orders forever.

Fair enough, and agreed. Unless they cast a very small shadow they will have a massive impact on the planet's temperature. If the icosahedron is instead positioned not with one vertex at the pole, but with three spaced evenly around it then the positions change, and the six "middle" vertices will be closer to the equator. Though even if they aren't we do still have the fallback of this being only in one or two zones, and Tress's island is in one of them. Agreed. One of the only options I can see for Brandon is to make them take up less of the sky, though again that would also limit the number of places that can have moonshadows regularly. The moon, which some cultures worship, is only 0.5 degrees - if you stick our hand out to its full extent and looked at your pinkie nail THAT is how big the Earth's moon Luna is - and the Sun - but they both are still deeply significant to us. If the Moons took up 1/4 of the arc, or 1/12 of the arc, that would still be impressive. Should ... should I be worried?

I'm not entirely sure I should get involved further in this argument, but if I can further this particular line for the moment, Stormlight, as Investiture, spans all three realms and interacts with, or can be made to interact with, all three. Just as Navani's intention allowed her to cause the song of Voidlight to become the song of anti-Voidlight - which is a physical alteration of the waveform to produce one that cancels out the peaks and troughs of the song of Voidlight - so to can invested things interact with and be affected by perception. We know spren respond to being measured and the starspren in Shadesmar Adolin and Shallan saw knew it was being observed. Stormlight is a physical manifestation of Investiture, and it both interacts with physical objects like Knights and gems, but also interacts with their souls, such as motivating them to move and to act, and Voidlight inducing emotions, assuming properties of one light are shared with others such that things that can affect one or be affected by one can also affect or be affected by the other. In this context, Stormlight likely also thinks of itself like a gas, as shown by Navani and Raboniel's experiments, where Stormlight and Voidlight displayed both gaseous and light-like traits. As a gas, and seen by the body as a substitute for air, means both Stormlight and the individual in question both affect how it behaves, also taking into account how Stormlight can be transformed into manifestations of the surges. Either way, in this context it is the combination of Stormlight's own self-perception (as objects in the cosmere have self perception in the Cognitive Realm, as seen by the swords that somehow felt they hadn't fulfilled their function when Shallan touched them, and the items which felt like dust was a part of them) interacting with the perception of the Knights, who physically have to breath the Stormlight in, that makes Stormlight behave like super air for the Knight, and so something that should only enter or leave through the mouth or nose, and anything else is due to flaws in the capacity of the body to contain it, imperfections letting it leak just like how a bottle with a small hole in it will let the water out even though the bottle was designed to only let the water in or out through the opening.

I know you meant vertex, but now I'm picturing miniature Highstorms racing around the Lunagree's on Lumar Depending on how many moons are visible at a time from any given location, I imagine there likely are more than three locations where this is possible - consider how the Sun traces a path through the sky, if at any point in that path it intersects a portion (not the whole) of the disc of one of those moons there will be a brief eclipse. Depending on where you are on the Earth the Sun can trace a path directly overhead, or just peak above the horizon - this is consistent across lines of latitude, but with twelve objects in the sky there are many areas which likely have at least one moon intersecting them, depending on how close the moons are and their size. Either way, all that matters is Tress's home island is at one of those locations at least some time during the year, as perhaps at different times of the year they don't have any of these moonshadows, but at others they do. We'll just have to see how Brandon addresses this, and hopefully the Ars Arcanum as you suggested.

Perhaps, and hopefully he can confirm whether or not my understanding of his argument is his intention, though its important to remember that a lot of people have somewhat different perspectives on things and what is and isn't intuitively obvious. I've been in a similar situation to Frustration's where I was trying to explain something to someone but my analogy made no sense to them while to me it was logical - I had to take a step back and reconsider how to present what was in my own mind in a manner that made sense to the other person. I think Frustration was trying to use the submarine analogy to illustrate how gases behave and a situation where gases entering and exiting one way is beneficial and accounted for and even expected, but another way is a design flaw, and working on the assumption that in the Spiritual and Cognitive Realm Stormlight is treated as a gas, but that wasn't sufficiently illustrated to be clear to everyone - Stormlight being seen by souls as a gas and so being treated as such was likely his starting assumption, but that wasn't made fully clear. Online discussions can become frustrating, but it is important to remember the other person - either way I hope, if my assessment is accurate, this puts you and @Frustration and @Nameless on the same page, and hopefully the conversation can continue from this point with a common frame of reference. I hope my analogy helped.

True, but again that means she doesn't have to be exactly on the equator, and so there is a range of possible locations she could be on that have this effect, and we are also accounting for this being a regional thing, that not everywhere on the planet is subject to these sorts of eclipses.

@Frustration and @Nameless I think you may be talking partially past each other on this. I think Frustration is talking about the oxygen you inhale that isn't absorbed into your bloodstream (as not all oxygen diffuses across the membrane of the alveoli) and so when you breath out immediately after breathing in some of the oxygen in the air you inhaled is exhaled without entering into the bloodstream, just as some of the carbon dioxide in the vessels around the alveoli remains in the body rather than leaving. I think Nameless is getting at the point that, when you breath in, any oxygen that is absorbed by the blood remains in the body until it is used, and so any oxygen in the bloodstream will remain within you and not leave when you breath out. Not all the oxygen you breath in enters your bloodstream (Frustration's argument), but any oxygen that is absorbed doesn't leave until it has been used and combined to form carbon dioxide (Nameless's argument). @Frustration and @Bort I think Frustration's argument is that, to the soul of the person, Stormlight is like air, and is treated like a type of super air by the person's soul. Air, by design, only enters and leaves your body through our mouth and nose, rather than through the skin, and so Stormlight and the soul both see an open mouth or nose - or exhaling through the mouth or nose - as being legitimate ways of leaving the body, where as the skin is simply because the container isn't fully suited to hold that substance. Because magic - and magic associated strongly with how people perceive things, both consciously and unconsciously - is involved, when someone breaths in Stormlight they are in effect breathing in a gas, and the soul treats it as if it were a gas.

Indeed! Though we may not have to throw away all our assumptions. It could also be that the creatures Hoid is describing, when not said by a character in world, are ones the listeners would know but not necessarily Tress's people (so the seal example could be entirely for the listener's benefit, rather than a comparison one of Tress's people would make). Likewise, depending on how the twelve moons are arranged, the Verdant moon may have an equatorial orbit, or one sufficiently close that, for example, the sun passes through it like a cord rather than through the centre, so the moon is slightly offset from the equator but still close enough that it does cover it - and that is assuming Tress's island is on the equator as well. I am interested to see how the water cycle works though, considering Brandon hinted that the book contains a scene with rain falling on the ocean.

Brandon has confirmed that, baring feedback from his science contacts, he intends the planet and the moons to be related like the faces of a duodecahedron (or vertices of a icosahedron), which was my alternative suggestion, though that definitely would mean they are held in place rather than orbiting, perhaps with each effectively "lashed" to a point on the axis the planet rotates around, much like how Windrunners can redefine where gravity is pulling them. I'd like to do an updated take on this later to get a better feel, though I will assume the 1/3 is more poetic and accounts for the arc rather than the solid area taken up. That probably will be a while away though.

I'm with @AquaRegia on this. There may be multiple methods of FTL, but Cognitive Realm travel certainly counts. It likely bypasses causality issues due to the Cognitive Realm likely having - ironically - a consistent frame of reference, but if someone got a ship into the Cognitive Realm and then used it to travel quickly to another world and then returned to the Physical Realm that would be FTL. There possibly is still speed bubble based Physical Realm FTL, but Cognitive Realm travel is just as deserving of that term.

Thanks! well, lets add this to my list of Cosmere theories along with my two big ones: Silverlight is located where Ambition died / a large chunk of Ambition's corpse Ten people will take up Honour (possibly combined with parts or the whole of Cultivation and / or Odium) But Charlie the Cosmere Corpate is probably the craziest