marianmi

I would actually say T does fit the profile of a surgebinder: * he's visited Nightwatcher, receiving a bless and curse - like Dalinar & Lift * I would say he's got a pretty broken soul * he's certainly acting in a way that gets your (and a spren's) attention A surgebinder in Nohadon's time started the desolation, so surgebinders are not all the good guys. Also, I don't see this fascination with Dalinar and Stonewardens. He's not fitting the profile, and it's clear now that he's the Bondsmith. That's his role in the books, not to be a soldier, but the creator of the new KR order.

Erm, shardplates cracking and breaking is a bit strange behaviour for a metal... or at least a metal important for feruchemists... isn't it?

Well, I was trying to saying that she's not "creating" In the end, converting food into stormlight directly or spending food as key in gaining access to stormlight (like metal in allomancy) is practically (even if not technically), the same thing. You have food/metal, you can do magic. I don't think Devotion can be reformed, since the Dor presumably is Devotion + Dominion's power. Rather, a new shard may be created from the Dor (if somebody has the knowledge, of course). And since there is enough power around, the seons and skaze can stay, I guess... I was under the impression (from one of the threads here) that Endowment was identified as a "he" (can't remember his name). Just a remnant of a remnant of a memory

I assume it's the Kaladin tattoo chapter...

Thanks for a good post, Meg. 1) I agree that "mustn't" was not a good word. I am not a native English speaker Nevertheless, I stand by what I said: Lift is not creating stormlight. Investiture is not created. Think about it - is just like having someone in Nhaltis creating Breaths. 2) Wyndle - he doesn't even recovered all his memories 3) I know Shadesmar is the Cognitive - I was saying that, in my opinion, the power of creation is something "inhabiting" the Spiritual, similar how the glass beads "inhabit" the Cognitive. I tend to use "quotes" and /alternatives/ when I can't find words to express properly what I mean. 4) Maybe I abused the word "Shard". Let me try and explain better what I wanted to say: Shardholders can't create investiture. Shards cannot become more powerful than they were initially. Let's say the power of adonalsium = power of creation = 1600 Power Units (PU). It split into 16 shards, each shard has 100PU. Endowment "converts" (some of) its power into Breaths. Let's say 100PU = 1 million Breaths. He starts investing. Let's say you have 100k humans => 100k breaths lost on them, 900k remaining. Let's say he creates a Returned, with 1 Divine Breath = 1 PU (or about 10k Breaths). Still has 890k Breaths remaning, or the equivalent of 89 returned, or 8.9PU. Makes sense? Humans create Nightblood with 1k Breaths. Is Nightblood a splinter? I don't think we have a proper definition for splinter, except for "lots of investiture + sentience". Is Nightblood a splinter? Well, there are some difficult questions here: a) what is "lots of investiture"? Is a human with 10k Breath (equivalent to a returned) a splinter? He's got sentience + Lots of investiture. I think not. does "lots of investiture" required for splinter = the point where sentience comes from investiture? - if yes, then it's easy to argue that Shards (w/o the shardholder) have sentience. And that Nightblood is a splinter. But i think not. Plus, Return's "sentience" I don't think it comes from investiture. c) are splinters only things created by a shard? Then Nightblood is not a splinter, but is something similar created by humans. d) questions for Darnam above: if it does not matter metal or wood or organics in general, and the amount of investiture does not matter, what matters? Would you say seons are much smarter than Nightblood? Why? Coming back to the matter at hand: The idea is that with 100PU you can create 100 Returned. Then Endowment can't even create a human. It's power is all invested. Now, on Roshar, stormlight is investiture. Let's say it's Honor's. He also has 100PU. That's equivalent to 100kg of stormlight. He invested the equivalent of 1kg in each Herald => 90kg left. He invested the equivalent in 200 grams in each blade, and 100 grams in each plate. And so on. Now, how can Lift CREATE investiture? That's why I said what I said: Shards cannot create investiture. You said they are the source. Yes, I agree, partially: it's the source in the sense that it's the one "distributing" it. It's the source of it just like the supermarket is the source of bread. But the supermarket does not create bread out of thin air. That source has limited amount. Yes, the amount is not lost - the stormlight comes back to the source. But also, that source cannot have 101PU. It's got 100. Lift creating 1kg of stormlight will not make the total stormlight in all the realms equal to 101PU. She just gets it from somewhere else. From the source, if you want. If Cultivation has the ability to create investiture, or make people create investiture, then where do we go for here? Odium would never be able to defeat Cultivation, she can just grow and create splinters of 100PU each - she could duplicate herself to infinity. And regarding your last statement: I don't think Shards just "are". For example, I think a Shard, left by itself, is looking for a host (holder). Wants to he held. To have an intent - to BE an intent (I agree with you that they ARE the intents) - means that they are driven, and have some basic sentience. I am not talking about conscience, or even sentience as in human sentience, but I believe a Shard is AWARE in some sense. Otherwise, they would not be able to corrupt the holder. Or they would change him in an instant.

Thanks Moogle... I think there are several theories floating around that she was raped... I am not that good with search here I hope the reading from her POV will not be the only one on WoR... and can't wait to read the others...

I bet they have Durian on Roshar! Mmmmmm Durian....

I don't disagree with you - I just wanted to say more Breaths + better visualization = more complicated command - I think that's how it works for Awakening in general. That being said, you see the shards better than Nightblood at understanding their intent? Cunning, and all the plans they made that we've seen - they got their "wits" from the human part - it was Vin that decided to sacrifice, it was (very probably) Leras that made the plan to trap Ruin, etc... Try disregarding the human component, and you'll see a mass of power + a powerful intent noone smarter than Nightblood. Btw, would you say that by being a wooden sword (organic), Nightblood would have understood better what "evil" means? About Wyndle - let's not forget he's a young spren too... I would tend not to put too much value on what he himself says he does not understand/he's not sure about

Hmmm... are you sure about this assasination? Do you have a quote? Or is it WoB? :D

Yes, and I was saying that the build-up is stormlight, and that gets trapped in the gems in physical, so it might not get to a critical point to actually be a build-up, and that might be Odium's plan Anyway, this is very far-fetched

edit: somehow this got double posted. How do you define the power of creation?

The difference vs. Allomancy is that the power comes from spiritual, is used, and then gets back there... Whereas stormlight is something in the physical already... it's already "in a state". And when it's in a gem, I would say that it's "trapped", until "released" back in the spiritual when surgebinding. Then comes the Highstorm, when the power sweeps through physical, being trapped again in gems. And the cycle continues. As a side, this results in an interesting question: if stormlight is Honor's, and gems are his body, what happens when you have his body fully in the physical (by killing all gem-heart creatures and making all that into gems), and you fill them all with stormlight? this means that the shard is beyond any recovery? both his body and power trapped? ... Now, splinters is just an insane amount of investiture + powerful intent (+ maybe some other things too), powerful enough to get some kind of sentience. Example: Nightblood. Investiture = Breath, Nightblood = insane amount of Breath + intent to kill evil. I would say, using more Breaths => more complicated intent was possible => Nightblood would have been "smarter", or "more discerning". The idea is that lesser investiture DOES weaken the shard => but it's only a drop. Insignificant. Plus, the investiture used to do magic comes back immediately (usually). A splinter will weaken the shard in a more significant way, and investiture does not come back immediately. I would see it maybe possible for a shard to get back a "voluntary" splinter. I don't know if this has been discussed though, and I don't have enough information about this. EDIT: Why do you say all organics are created though shardic power? I thought it was just humans...

Just like shadesmar is a realm containing... beads ..., ... spanning across all worlds, I see the power of creation as something ... in the spiritual realmn, ... spanning all worlds... So, I guess I see the power of creation as something somewhat similar to the beads from shadesmar, but in the spiritual realm. This is not to say it does not manifest itself in other realms as well, but I'm saying that the "natural" state is in the spiritual. Also, like I said, I think of it as something that exists, and can cross realms, change states, but follows a "conservation" rule - it is constant, cannot be increased, cannot be decreased. It has a "cycle", bits of it traverses realms (e.g. when magic is done), and eventually those bits "return" to the "natural/neutral" state (in the spiritual). More to the point here, it cannot be "created". Investiture is not "created", is "awarded". Not even shards "create" investiture, they basically are an aspect of investiture. And they are not infinite - so basically you can "starve" or "weaken" a shard by "trapping" enough investiture in a certain "form" - and not allowing it to "return" to the "natural state". Otherwise, Preservation could not have "weaken ruin". We know investing "weaken" a shard (can be gathered from WoBs) ... so this means shards can't "create" investiture / or have access to infinite investiture. Then how can you think Lift can create some? She would be more powerful than a shard lol

I hardly think the exact process is revealed/understood directly in the first chapter we read about it, or that Wyndle knows exactly what is going on. Also, I think that the "power of creation" is "something" that "exists", and when it's "consumed" it "returns" to/in a different "state" of existence. Since I don't believe food is/contains the "power of creation", I don't think Lift is "creating" stormlight or "transforming" food into stormlight.

I think it's pretty clear that Dalinar is Bondsmith, and Bondsmith is resolute/builder #8. I had thought for a long time Dalinar would be #10, pious/guiding, but after the back cover information I now think he's #8. I like the introduction of a "broken soul" required for a bond. I think I was the first one to propose the "conflict" theory, whereas each proto-radiant has a "inner conflict", usually about one of the order ideals. I think now we can expand "conflict" to "broken soul". With previous information, I could not see how one "important" person, that does awesome stuff, does not become radiant. I mean, if it was just based on how you act, the moment you do something monumental, you would attract a spren, right? Now we have our answer - you also need a broken soul. Kaladin (Tien), Dalinar (Gavilar), Shallan (her father) - all fit now better. Jasnah - what happened to her? Previously I thought she attracted a spren because she was "wise", a perfect scholar. Now, I am sure it was not because of that. We don't know that much about her, and given this new information, I am now most interested about her past. Elhokar - also a very interesting case. How is he broken? Is it something to do with his father? Is it something to do with his paranoia? Renarin - while he seemes a quiet and introvert guy, I really hope he does not get into the "broken soul" category. I think I prefer him a non-radiant, nice, smart, quiet guy, and the spren that only he can see is not a bonding spren, but something else Let's have him only with something physical broken, not his soul too! Adolin - this one is also difficult to predict. He does not seem broken, but are his dalliances with so many girls a sign of something more going on ?

I def. like the old one better. My only gripe with it was the red headband. His right foot was a bit awkward, but now even more so! His shoulders are huge now, and distorted vs. his torso, and his head position is unreal. His right hand holding the spear is weird. And his face is so square, stockish and old. He does not even looks at what he's doing, he's looking straight at us, weeeird.... No, def. the first one was better. BTW, have you noticed on his shoulder what now we know is the Bridge4 insignia?

You mustn't see as Lift transforming food into stormlight/investiture. She is not "transforming" food into stormlight, no more than you are "transforming" money in a Big Mac Rather, she is gaining stormlight and "paying" for it with food/fat cells. Or better yet like the metal in Mistborn - is not investiture, but a key to investing. PS: I hate McDonalds.

I don't think Odium "created" any creature. Noone are "his"... he just makes sure creatures hate eachother ...

So, nobody thinks this comes from Yggdrasil? http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/4732-wor-secret-anagram-hoid-gibberish/#entry76893

1) I think on every world the shards first created humans, themselves being humans from Yolen. Since Parsh seem very adapted to Roshar, looks to me they were native, as in already there, not created by Cultivation. 2) Since Parsh are native to Roshar, then they are not the Voidbringers, since the Voidbringers chased humans from the Tranquiline Halls to Roshar. I can't see the Parshmen going to TH (another planet maybe) and chase humans on Roshar. 3) I think UNITE THEM means unite the humans. Unfortunately, I don't think it includes Parsh, since we haven't actually seen any vision where Parsh and humans were in the same army. (I am assuming that in KR times they were UNITED in the sense that Honor told Dalinar).

Well, given that bonding comes from how people act, Adolin not bonding would basically just mean he is not good enough Not honourable enough, not leading enough, not .... enough. This means that he will either basically not do anything of importance in the book. That would be a shame, just keeping him around to be a moaner (oh, my dad has powers, oh, my bro has powers, oh why don't I have powers....). Also, given that in his vision the KR told Dalinar to go to Urithiru, train, even if he could not guarantee entering KR ranks, means to me that there is (was) something like a candidature process, if diplomatic relations can be established with The Ring for example. The existing KR could propose candidates to The Ring, and they vote and decide... Something like that.

BONDSMITH! I was half-right yeah, looks like order #8 Thank god this stoneward thing can end now. Now, Adolin...

Looks like something close to Yggdrasil.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yggdrasil "is an immense tree that is central in Norse cosmology, in connection to which the nine worlds exist."

What he said.

I don't think we have enough information on Shadesmar. I was just pointing out that intention plays a big role in magic in general (WoB), and also that in Awakening you have to "visualize". Since Shadesmar spans Nhaltis as well, there might be similarities in how in works there and Roshar.