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So either Syl or Stormfather lied, but they are both made of Honor, thus paradox

Yes, that WoB is what you said in your last post as well and it proves that Syl wasn't a dead Shardblade as Maya is, so we are indeed comparing apples and oranges. As the last in book quote I provided, this quote also proves that Syl was not completely dead as she retained some consciousness while Kaladin was reforming their bond. (To clarify, I'm not saying that Maya isn't reviving for certain, but the evidence that we currently have is still inconclusive.)

Syl didn't admit she was dead, she said that Kaladin almost killed her. I'm not sure I understand what you are saying but we do not have any indication that what happened to Syl and what happened to Maya is the same thing. Deadeyes could be a completely different case of KR bond break. To clarify, I'm not saying that Maya isn't reviving for certain, but the evidence that we currently have is still inconclusive.

Well maybe for a nahel spren to become a Deadeye, it needs their Radiant to reach that far enough into Radiancy first. Either way we are comparing two different cases. Edit: To clarify, 'Syl became a Deadeye' isn't proved or disapproved in the books, it's an assumption. Neither did she appear in the Cognitive realm with her eyes scratched out, nor did she become a weapon in the Physical realm, which are the two indications that we know of how Deadeyes manifest. So we can't know for sure if she indeed became a Deadeye or not at that point.

Correct if I'm wrong but Syl didn't become a deadeye, did she? Yes, we couldn't see her manifestation in the Cognitive Realm at that time, but wouldn't she turn into a weapon in the Physical Realm as well? Am I missing something?

First of all, please do not misunderstand me, I did not call you rude, I was merely trying to justify myself for not addressing all points replied after my post since I think they are opinionated and on the contrary I didn't want to be rude on multiple occasions by stating " this and this and this are plain opinions". There is no reason to do this, on the contrary I was trying not to be rude. If we are thinking about the same WoB it's not directly significant to Maya's revival, but significant to Adolin's character in general. It could be of a significance to show that Adolin is as close to a soldier as he can possibly be, by assuming he learns his weapon's name and talking to it during battle, as a lot of soldiers are known to do as coping mechanism. This isn't exactly physical though, is it? At least I consider it cognitive, so okay I guess it's a matter of opinion again, I guess. Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. We do not have enough evidence to know it isn't. I do not know which WoB you are referring to, but we do know that Perpendicularity is a junction between the Physical Realm and Cognitive Realm, so I don't understand this statement. It's not a mess, it's a narrative technique called red herring. The author wants the reader to think something is happening, only to turn the result over on itself. I'm not claiming this is necessarily what's happening here, but it could be and we will not know unless we RAFO. We do not have enough evidence to know it's either way.

Okay, I will not comment on opinions since everyone is allowed to have one and just pointing out something as opinionated isn't useful in a discussion. (and of course quite rude) So I'll just say that whatever I'm not addressing I consider it a matter of opinion and I agree that we disagree. Do you think that Maya has shown signs of consciousness (I'm guessing conscience was a typo) in the physical realm? I only see her manifesting as a blade in the physical realm, so I don't know what you are referring to, so I currently disagree. The Adolin/Maya interaction happened in Shadesmar so there isn't a reason for the Perpendicularity to be in effect at that point. Whatever happened in the Physical Realm was because of Perpendicularity, because that's what brought them into the Physical Realm in the first place.

How do we even know that "Mayalaran" is the deadeye spren's name? It could be the name of the "original person who broke the oath" and maybe "Maya" has been trying to explain to Adolin, that she can only be revived by the original KR that bonded her, by shouting the KR name at him. And that person could probably be dead since the Recreance for all we know. I'm not trying to shoot down people's hopes here, but what I'm trying to say is, we are jumping through a lot of assumptions as it is. Quite frankly, at this point, we do not have enough information to know what is going on exactly with Maya, especially because this isn't just another normal nahel bond. It's a deadeye spren. Like a lot of other people have said in this thread already, all the clues that we have that she might be coming back to life coincide with Dalinar's Perpendicularity. We just haven't got enough information to exclude Perpendicularity as a cause, as we don't have enough information to pinpoint that Adolin is indeed causing Maya's revival, by taking the right actions. Since she is the only case we currently know of a deadeye spren, all the symptoms could all be part of what the condition of being a deadeye spren actually is. Too little information leads to inconclusive results.

To anyone that may understand what all of this means, Is it that all Investiture can be used by any Vessel, or do they need to claim it as their own first? And if they need to claim it first, is it necessary to kill/shatter the Vessel/Shard that currently holds it?

Could these "little connections happening" and the "cans of worms" that Brandon is mentioning in the following WoB are connected? Because Jasnah escaped the sinking Wind's Pleasure somehow, maybe Elsecalling (or Wit's world-hopping) caused that "little connection" to happen. Or maybe the fact that Shallan survived and she would be now on her way to the Shattered Plains, it would mean that eventually she and Kaladin would meet, so as the strings of these events were about to happen Syl reacted to that potential through her spiritual connection. Either case, the fact that Syl is affected by Shallan is indeed peculiar Edit: Also, we have the scene where Shallan draws in WoR Chapter 30: Could it be connected as well? We have the presence of water in both cases. Maybe water is to Honor/Cultivation, what mist was to Preservation?

A Nahel bond is created after the spren is attracted to a Knight Radiant candidate. Why do you purposefully skip this step? This is bias right here. Dead Shardblades scream when they are touched and this denotes that they are used against their own will. I think Brandon emphasizes this in order to cause sentiments of disgust or at least worry on the readership. So 1) there needs to be an attraction first and 2) Maya has been used by Adolin against her will. Why does this make people feel giddy?! This is the wrong reaction here. I'm going to try and use your method of persuasion here, using a WoB *shivers* (and believe me I feel filthy by doing this because this is not my style) The above Wob denotes that there could be a sort of 'surgical operation' between physical and cognitive realm that could fix a deadeye spren. We know that Surges aren't exactly the same between the two orders that have them, there is usually a different kind of aspect to the power itself. Yes, Willshapers have Transportation, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will Transport themselves since they are not 'else callers'. They are fixers and/or engineers. If they can manipulate mater on a molecular level (Cohesion) and the Transportation ability gives them "the affinity to the far realm of spren." , a joint use of the two powers could mean an upgraded Cohesion in the Physical and Congnitive realm. Yes, this is purely speculative and you will disagree. But I disagree that Adolin is Edgedancer material too. So here we are. I never said 'Adolin is unreliable because of his failed relationships'. We are having a healthy debate here, there is no need to attribute arguments to me that I've never said, just to defame the validity of my point of view. This is disrespectful actually (and even if it's done constantly on these forums I still do not accept it). Of course he has a relationship by the end of OB, so yes, he has grown since WoK, even despite the fact that the healthiness of that relationship is still arguable. But I'm curious how would you describe "the act of refusing to be king" as? It's certainly does not denote a reliable person. He obviously knew he was in line in the throne beforehand, because from his own POV in book, it's the first thing he thinks about when he realizes that Elhokar is dead. I think it's a legit argument to call it capricious actually. And I'm sure Dalinar finds frustrating that his favourite son is abdicating the throne. And if people were so sure that he would become an Edgedancer why isn't there a WoB question "What would the Edgedancers think about Adolin killing Sadeas?" huh? Because I'm pretty sure, if we had that answer we wouldn't have this discussion right now. Certainly, sticking a knife in an unarmed's eye isn't exactly Loving or Healing, so I'm sitting here wondering why are the Divine Attributes of Edgedancers completely ignored in here.

I don't understand what's this obsession of making Adolin fit the ED ideals. It was a pure coincidence the Shardblade he is carrying was previously an Edgedancer's, he didn't attract cultivationspren as other KR attract their respective spren and he just happened to go through Shadesmar, otherwise he would've never met Mayalaran. There is no need to go through mental gymnastics, because it doesn't need Adolin to become an Edgedancer and bond Maya, in order to revive her. That's just a general assumption that's being tossed around without any rational basis. She is dead people. She cannot bond at this point. Do not compare with Syl, she was already bonded to Kaladin and the bond was deteriorating, that's a whole different case. Now on the other hand, if Adolin actually let's go of the dead Shardblade for a little while, I wouldn't be suprised if Willshaper spren started flocking him, (whichever those spren may be) because surely Willshaper description always fitted him better. from coppermind: love of adventure, novelty, or oddity - check : Adolin is adventurous of course, curious about Shallan the first time he sees her because she looked unusual and actually the only nobleman that states that he likes Wit (and he is definitely an oddity) capricious, frustrating and unreliable - check: Killing Sadeas is argued as a capricious move, teaching Shallan to fight with a Shardblade is frustrating and unreliable since he was tailoring a new suit instead of helping the Kholinar populace Willshapers would "probably be ok" with Adolin killing Sadeas - check: Yes, someone actually asked this back before we learned that his blade was a cultivationspren, guess why, because he actually fit that order characteristics better had an affinity to the "far realm of spren." - check : maybe this explains why there are all this hints that he just might revive Maya To take it a step further, what do we know about Willshaper powers, they use Transportation & Cohesion So if Transportation allows a Willshaper to travel between Realms and Cohesion can be manipulated to alter objects at molecular level, maybe if these two powers combined somehow a Willshaper could actually fix what's wrong with the dead Shardblade and Maya in the Cognitive Realm. Now after that, yes, why not, I could see him bonding her, but as things currently stand this is all a hypothesis. The irony is that he needs to actually let go of Maya in order to attract the necessary spren, so who knows, he might do it or he might not and the only way to surely know is to wait, read and find out.

The thread was aptly titled 'Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin' (had three character names in the title) because people participating in it were expected to talk about the characters and not ‘shipping’. Quite frankly, at this point, I feel that a lot of the people that use the word do not actually know what it means. From Google: Please note the "rather than depicted in the series itself." part. Shipping denotes that it is purely fan fiction, most of the times with characters that don't have any romantic interactions between them. And it is this word and the misconceptions surrounding its definition, that is one of the main sources of this whole misunderstanding. Certain people describe a certain character relationship as 'shipping' when it clearly exists in a book, at least as a friendly relationship, while it’s romantic aspect is implied by the text in the book. So just by dismissing the analysis done on that relationship as 'shipping' maybe they didn’t take the time needed to understand the topic. (There was a Shardcast about the ‘love triangle’ so I think it’s safe to assume that both relationships referenced in a ‘triangle’ were at least present in the book in some way) The ASK thread involved very little fanfiction. Please take a moment to find posts from users such as @PhineasGage or @DeployParachuteor @maxal in there. By using the word 'shipping' to describe the level of character and text analysis done by these people is demeaning to the amount of work they put into crafting and supporting their arguments. All of that useful analysis was lost and locked in that thread because people were being dismissive of the endeavor, exactly by calling it 'shipping'. The misunderstanding of the word had made a lot of people include any character analysis topics into the ASK thread, and subsequently into the word 'shipping' . Shallan’s split personalities? In there. Adolin’s motivation? In there. Kaladin’s multi-colored stone symbolism? In there. There was a general criticism and passive aggressive atmosphere on the subforum as well, (i.e. http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/64996-ob-what-topic-do-you-feel-has-been-discussed-to-death/ ) which gave off the impression that some people didn't want to involve themselves or acknowledge such discussions as legitimate, since they considered them to be mundane and/or immature. This was easily misinterpreted as “People that have strong feelings on certain matters, or were interested to discuss feelings of characters, please contain themselves in the ASK thread”. That's why so many people have expressed that they feel that character discussion is looked down upon and discouraged in the first place. So all character analysis ended up in the ASK thread. This has nothing to do with 'shippers getting a corner to share their fanfiction’ . This is about having a place to discuss characters and analyze relationships (not necessarily romantic ones) and especially without being called 'shippers'.

Nono it doesn't feel personal at all actually. You do the same thing to every single person. I never said I was targeted. But you do seem to do it even on threads that do not even need a WOB, for example, this one. Like, right now. The fact that you get so defensive though when people point this thing out to both of you is very strange. To be honest, it's not very hospitable, at all actually, especially to someone that has no idea what your title even means, but by all means if you think this is constructive, I'm not going to silence you. Personally I would like for people to learn how to provide evidence to their arguments, how to make logical connections to their arguments but hey I don't have a title for my opinion to gain any added value. And I will not further comment on this matter because I feel it's derailing the discussion. Feel free to PM me if you like.

Funny, English is my second language as well, so let's hope this works. Well, the original @Dreamstorm post (the OP's position - which wasn't intended to be OP, hence the 'quotes' in my original post) didn't intent to make a thread in the first place, but posted her opinion on another thread trying to support another user and his dissatisfaction to the moderation. I'm assuming it was moved by you into this separate thread, in order to initiate discussion with her and other members that share her view. Some people though, totally clueless to the situation, probably assumed that 'OP made this thread in order to express her opposition', that's why they gave us their own opposing perspective on the matter, trying to support the moderation (as if moderation needs support in any matter) even though 'OP' didn't even request it in the first place. Having an antagonizing opinion being re-enforced when you are trying to initiate negotiations with the weaker side of the argument really didn't help the promotion of discussion. That's what I was trying to say. What is an Arcanist exactly? Is it related to why you and @RShara have this insistent need to reply to every single post? Quite frankly from a new member's perspective it feels like you are always ganging up to whoever is on the other side of your argument. You guys need to chill, seriously. Apologies accepted of course. My first suggestion is to actually moderate threads and posts even if they aren't reported. You are moderators and not judges. The 'What topic do you feel has been discussed to death' thread was antagonistic in it's nature towards any other threads. That's self destructive to the forum itself and the notion of discussion. Do no criticize what people talk about for storm's sake, you are in a forum discussing a book! It's probably because I'm a programmer, and already people told me it's not a good idea to put people into code, but I'm going to voice it anyway. Maybe we could use optional tags in order to denote what kind of responses we are expecting to receive? (kind of like Access Modifiers for the IT related ) [Talk] for a purely opinions expressed, [Theory] for a purely hypothetical scenario [Challenge] to challenge that theory with WOBs and in book evidence, [InBook] to provide in book evidence when bringing a point into the discussion. Or something like that. Yeah I know it's way too orderly to work on people, but maybe another idea could sprout from this one that could actually work?

I’m under the impression that this thread was created in order to close the gap between moderation and ‘people dissatisfied by the closing of ASK thread’. If this is true, as a person dissatisfied by the closing of ASK thread, the moderation’s attempt to open discussion is very much appreciated. Admittedly, the way this thread was created, by moving ‘a disagreeing opinion towards moderation’ from an irrelevant thread and placing that post as the ‘OP’s position’ on a new thread might make irrelevant people fall into the assumption that the people actually involved want to know what their thoughts are on the matter, but I’m not sure that was what @Mestiv wanted. At least I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt he didn’t mean to, because quite frankly, the fact a lot of originally irrelevant people, feel the need to defend the administration ‘from an older member’s point of view’ is actually causing more harm than good, in bridging the gap of disagreement; especially when these ‘older members’ name the underdogs of the disagreement as ‘shippers’ and a ‘cabal’. This is not constructive to the discussion; it only causes the opposition to get even more heated and disbelieving the authority’s intent. And it is ironic, because that’s what @Dreamstorm is exactly calling out as passive aggressiveness in the first place. Personally I never found the 17th Shard, the [OB] sub forum specifically, as hospitable as the older members of this thread are trying to paint it. Maybe back when you all joined it was as nice as you describing it, but this is not the case now. Admittedly, I found joining 17th Shard appealing for the following reasons: -It didn’t have a down vote system that buries unpopular opinions (like reddit) -There is constructive discussion on certain theoretical matters -A majority of people provide coherent arguments and discuss rationally It’s just that a vocal (with a large number of posts per day) minority, who seem to always skirt on the edge of the rules by being passive aggressive instead of clearly insulting, that make the experience unpleasant. To address the said ‘cabal’ statement, the most active posters in [OB] basically have their own cabal, their own echo chamber, tooting each other’s horn with the upvoting system, while at the same time demotivating new members that have opposing theories and opinions. From an outsider’s point of view, the fact that they call each other “old friends” only strengthens the image of a cabal. Even more so when some moderators are included, it certainly seems that this is the forum’s status quo. From a new member's POV it feels like "if you disagree with the status quo, not only you are a minority but you are opposing authority. If you don’t like it, it’s time to move along to somewhere else" . Now, when a large influx of people after OB joined in and had an opposing opinion to the general concensus and thus creating their own allegedly opposing cabal (this whole fiasco created it actually), the administration itself intervened in threads and directed all people interested in character and relationship discussions to move themselves into that specific ASK thread. This was again a ‘passive aggressive’ move because people were basically told that if they have strong feelings on certain matters, or were interested to discuss feelings of characters, to ‘contain themselves’ in that thread. Personally, I would interpret that it was done for at least the following reasons: 1.For the agreeing ones to contain their opinions in a single thread, so they are easily ignored. 2.For the opposing ones to deal with the 'shipping' because they didn’t want to bother themselves in disagreeing with "absurd" opinions and participate in such a "mundane and immature" topic. Of course it would get heated because you basically stuffed that entire emotional vent of people with opposing opinions on a large variety of topics into a single thread! I personally strongly believe that this was done intentionally to keep old fans (clearly friends as well) satisfied, because the administration didn’t think the influx of new people would be motivated enough to keep on posting up to 96 pages, or they assumed that at some point the disagreement on that thread would get so heated that they would be justified to close it all together. And this is what actually happened. Now the administration’s decision to take all of the above actions bothers me. If this is not at least admitted from the administration’s part, I have no reason to keep faith to the honest intentions and candour whatsoever. In conclusion, the administration’s attempt to open discussion is appreciated, but quite frankly, I am not convinced there is genuine interest on indeed pleasing the minority of new users trying to find a place to express themselves.

First of all, let me say I love this thread and apologize for bumping it so late. I know we have been under the assumption that the above DR is about the 16 Shards, but considering the we now know that it is Moelach that provides these visions into the future, could it be irrelevant to the Shards but linked into the creation of the Unmade instead?

I think, diseases would've easily been eradicated since different planets have different ecosystems and different amounts of chemical elements in the environment. Or it could all be buried under centuries old of crem waiting to resurface... dundundun (Fortitude anyone?) Still, "people with magic" as Brandon puts it and "magic that's an inherent part of the person" is how I would personally describe what I understand the word 'surges'. To me, it kinda denotes a sudden movement that causes magic, say like 'casting'. And I'm under the impression that we need a Shard to have that kind of thing. Ugh, I wish I could read "The Silence Divine" like right. now.

So you are both implying that there can be surges using investiture without a Shard being a catalyst in the process. Have we ever seen anything like this before? We know this? Are we talking about magic used by humans and not just presence of investiture? If yes, can you please point me in the right direction?

Whatever 'spren' and 'surges' mean, even if Ashyn is being included as canon or not, (which quite frankly we don't even know if it'll have a Shard on it, so the information that it exists is purely useless at this point), humans were using some kind of Inverstiture when they came to Roshar. Before even the Oathpact. And that's written in the Elia Stele, in book. If you believe that it's more likely they used this Investiture because of Odium or because of another Shard which we currently haven't seen, it's purely hypothetical, as OP's theory to begin with. It's a theory, it's not a fact until said so in the books. Basically RAFO.

Okay, let's forget about the spren, what about the Surges mentioned then? Edit: Investiture is needed for whatever the word 'surge' interprets, right? Well, is The Silence Divine canon? Until very recently The Silence Divine was listed as non-canon on the Coppermind, so people might've not taken it as seriously as the Elia Stele translation in Oathbringer which in book text. I'm sorry that this has been repeated before, some people are new here (me included) and this thread is recent enough to notice. Even if I was aware of other threads discussing this, what's the point of reviving a probably outdated zombie thread anyway.

That's a very interesting thought. Is it easy for you to point me to the thread that this was discussed? And I agree that Shards might be excluded by the definition of "any creature voidish or mortal", but since we currently don't know how powerful Dawnshards actually were, I'll still retain the fact that they were somehow used in the process of binding Odium on Braize, or at least helping Honor and/or Cultivation fight him. (Maybe to bind Heralds on a device/temple that would send them back to Braize?). I'm also getting the impression that they were somehow expended in the process, that's probably why it's an impossible task now. I'm sorry, I thought it was obvious from the bit I provided. Calderis seems to understood at least. I meant that if "the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal" may have helped them against Odium, it could be because it is known to bind. From the Eila Stele part I copied above, it seems that humans already knew 'Dangerous powers, of spren and Surges" before arriving to Roshar. Doesn't that imply that they had access to some other Investiture? If you know of Surges that do not use Investiture, of course, by all means, please let me know. Even if the Dawnsinger assumption that humans worshiped Odium is wrong, that doesn't change the fact that they might be providing us with new information here. BTW, I never claimed that I thought that humans worshiped Odium, but as the original theory of this thread suggests "Another kind of spren, maybe a void spren could've come along along with the Surgebinders on Roshar." Admittedly, we know that spren can be as vast as Stormfather and as small as emotion spren, so the meaning of 'spren' as Dawnsingers say could be anything between those spren sizes/powers.

Edit:

Why is that? How else did they have surges before they came to Roshar if they weren't fueled by another Shard's Investiture? Since I do not know of any other Shard on Braize the Rosharan System, I'm assuming it was Odium. I might be completely confused here, but I was under the impression that Odium is bound on Braize because of a Dawnshard. I think it was in one of Dalinar's visions? It depends how this is interpreted. I didn't say he became their god necessarily, but I've been thinking that they've made a deal with him somehow and when their planet got destroyed (probably by Odium's hand) they fled to Roshar, unknowing that Odium would follow them. But yes, the Dawnsingers probably misinterpreted that humans were still in alliance with Odium, even if they were trying to flee.