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I didn't mean it like that! This is a family friendly forum after all...

How about bisexual? That way nobody is left behind

How about Chemoarish? It seems the Bavland mine villages swear in Dustmother's name and we know that the Davars had investments in mining right? Also: I find it particularly odd how sorting out the correct lore is phrased.

You call it madness, but I hesitate to jump there. It could have been a matter of cold (very dark, and mistaken) logic rather than madness. And I don't think Shallan's willingness to kill someone trying to kill her (mother or not) is a sign of past relationship trouble. Especially since it was partially a mistake. First of all, how do we know it was a mistake? Both Shallan's mother and her lover were killed by mistake? Please explain to me where you got that impression that two consecutive murders at the same scene were an accident. Secondly, "a very dark and mistaken logic" is the definition of the word madness. The fact that a mother attempts to harm their own child under whatever storming logic, is pure madness and if you still disagree on this, then we just have to agree that we disagree. And I'm not trying to justify 'past relationship trouble' I'm justifying that Shallan has serious mental issues from past trauma. Either killing her own mother by mistake or not is traumatizing enough to break anyone, especially a small child. Shallan's second flashback could be interpreted as saying Lin's anger problems were a thing that took off after his wife died. I can see how that traumatic experience would push him over a cliff, and that he was a much more balanced person before. (I want to say there's also an argument to be made that one of the Unmade was affecting him, but I can't remember my basis for that.) So just because Lin went mad after his wife died justifies him for being brutal to his own children? Even if there is an Unmade influence (which I have the same impression and a theory along those lines) that doesn't make the family condition in which Shallan was brought up any less problematic. If these issues were not clear and explained while they were happening, which they weren't that's why his children murdered Lin in the first place, they still are enough to cause mental issues to everyone involved.

Initially it was thought that in order to form a nahel bond a person needed to be 'broken', because from my small understanding of realmatic theory, that's what causes the cracks in the spirit web, requirement for a nahel bond to form. Since this WoB came up people have been doubting that a traumatic experience is needed, and I understand how people might double think that is what happened with Shallan. But can you truly say that this WoB erases all in book text of Shallan's flashbacks? Didn't her mother try to kill her because she showed Radiant powers? Did she just snap one day, or did she show signs of madness long before she was killed? What makes a kid kill its own mother, if it's not because of being a victim of abuse? What about Lin? Even if he was covering up Shallan's crime, he killed Malise Gevelmar and maimed Balat Davar. In Shallan's flashbacks, her brothers were constantly afraid of Lin because he was so abusive that she ended up poisoning him and strangling him herself, crying all the while and denying the truth to herself for a long time. Now I know Shallan is an unreliable narrator at this point. I mean, I don't see it plausible that all her memories could be artificial as the plot stands at this point, but for the sake of the argument let's say they are. The fact itself that she has such a damaged memory is an indication of huge emotional trauma. So I'm pretty sure it's safe to assume that her nahel bond with Pattern is either made on that huge emotional trauma or on the lies she created herself in order to cover up a very horrible reality.

I know we usually don't go off on the right foot @maxal but please try to take this post in the most positive and friendly way possible. Lin killed Malise Gevelmar and maimed Balat Davar in front of his children, please do not compare Lin to Dalinar, but as @Jofwu said earlier there is no reason to compare. Every person experiences trauma differently. Indeed a loving mother's death and a drunk father are enough for anyone to have a lot of psychological issues. You've clearly analysed and dissected any kind of text that references Adolin (as other readers do for Shallan), so I accept that you do have a strong case of Adolin having a troubled childhood, you seem to be a lot more insightful when it comes to Adolin's case than everyone else anyway. But what worries me in Adolin, is that we do not have any obvious indications he is indeed affected as much by it as an adult, at least it's not reflected on the behavior he shows on the outside. (yes to some readers it is obvious, but to other readers it isn't, so that can only mean it's not always so obvious, so there is at least some kind of duality to the character) On some topics we disagree, but on this one, from a person that has had a troubled childhood and now a kid of their own, I agree and I understand where you coming from. It's just that you related a lot more to Adolin, I related a lot more to Shallan. But it's not a competition, we are all trying to figure out what these characters are going through. Sometimes we just need to take a step back and notice that it's all fictional, it's just Sanderson's creation and it doesn't mean that it will always make perfect sense to us.

Huh, I somehow missed this line, since I was only looking at the part that Shallan was in contact with the black heart. Yes, you are right. I was initially skeptical as to how Sja-anat would be able to telepathically contact Shallan, but the clue is right in the text. Through Shadesmar: Yes, these two occasions, before she reached Ashertmarn, could only be Sja-anat. Maybe we can consider the voice Shallan thinks as Wit to be Sja-anat? I don't know. Edit: We currently know that Sja-anat corrupts spren, not humans, but if she somehow is more powerful towards Shallan, maybe she could be able to corrupt her as well.

Also this one: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/182-stormlight-three-update-5/#e3836

All voices are Ashertmarn's. Wit talking to her at that point doesn't make any sense. If he could communicate to her telepathically why hasn't he done that before ? Why show up and risk Odium finding him in the first place?

@BraidedRose I too think that the voice she heard wasn't Wit's, but I do not think that at that point Sja-anat was involved at all, it was all Ashertmarn. From what Beard told Kaladin earlier in the book : (Whatever I have bolded here is italics in the original text. Underline is my highlight.) 'Voices' There is a plural there. Ashertmarn manifests with different voices and corrupts humans into indulging themselves in the revel. Shallan got completely taken in at the moment she touched Ashertmarn and started listening to the voices, she wasn't supposed to let herself listen. And she was indeed touching the dark heart (Ashertmarn, the Heart of the Revel) right before the related conversation was exchanged. This is the immediately previous POV we have from her: So let's go back to what Shallan experienced when she was in contact with the heart. Notice, again, it is mentioned that there are multiple voices. The fact that the phrase 'All of them' replies to her inner thought is another indication that her mind is being read by the dark heart, her mind is surrendered and being corrupted. 'All of them' might've been another voice trying to manipulate her into giving all of her emotions and her sensations. But Shallan falsely assumes it's Wit's voice, because she just had the 'Girl who Stood up' pep talk from him and she was still trying to figure out how to realize what it meant. Her mind is a jumbled mess, completely under Ashertmar's control here. She voices out her question "Wit?", voices her concern that she is being ruled by Veil and Radiant and then Ashertmar grasps the opportunity to convince her into ruling her other 'selves'. (knowingly or not of who Wit is I think it's irrelevant since Shallan's mind has completely given in at this point) The fact that Ashertmar withdrew as if nothing happened is another indication that whatever his plan was, regarding Shallan, it was complete. And we also have Sja-anat later confirming that there is a trap set up by the both of them. Well, maybe Ashertmar's objective was to just corrupt Shallan? If you aren't convinced yet, read back on one of Shallan's encounters with Wit: The Cult of Moments is a group of people that have let themselves be completely corrupted by emotion and indulgence, because of their lack in control. Wit specifically mentions how the frustration for power and control make people lash out in spectacular ways. Then later, when Shallan is in contact with Ashertmar she says "They rule me, Wit. Veil and Radiant and all the others. They’re consuming me. ". She obviously feels like she is losing control of them and this inner turmoil is openly revealed to the Unmade. And the advice she gets is... to rule. That is a self indulging gesture here, because it takes less effort than to just accept reality, the broken parts are still her. She wasn't supposed to rule Veil and Radiant, but she was supposed to accept them as parts of herself. That's the only way she will become whole again. (Hopefully at some point in the future) BTW, this is one of my favorite moments in the book, because of the paradox it reveals. Wit appeared to Shallan in order to give her advice on how to confront the Unmade ( he tells her to bring food and that would gain her access to the revel). So either he can predict what happens, maybe he can foresee, maybe he's just ambitious, either way he is somehow coming up with a plan expecting a future result, but what he didn't expect was that his own advice would be the key to corrupting Shallan. Because she thought it was his voice she heard in there and because she thought it was him, she was convinced to 'let go'. The tragic irony is that he, himself, repeats to her to be wary of anyone who claims to be able to see the future and the advice includes himself. (probably because Moelach's powers are even greater at precognition? I don't know) Also, I love how Pattern goes haywire there trying to compute the logical paradox <3 Pattern.

@Hearty_Joe I like your theory I'm not saying it's plausible or not, since I'm not a WoB nor a Realmatics expert, but I like the potential this twist could have in the story from a literary perspective. Maybe it won't play out exactly as you are imagining it, but you could be close to a plan that humans could use in an attempt to defeat Odium. Or something that affected Shallan's past, considering the recurring aluminum necklace mentioning, in her childhood flashbacks in WoR. This is why I like theories, because they are food for thought. They are there to spark an idea on how the narrative may proceed in the future. If you predict something 1 or 2 or 7 books in the future that's cool as well right? But considering how complicated fantasy plots end up after a couple of books, this could be something charted in the narrative anywhere between now and the end of the books. Nice theory!

@Jofwu I think there is a large part of understanding Shallan that is missing from the equation here. Adolin surely wouldn't be capable of understanding this and the advice he gives to Shallan, wanting the inside of the broken vase, testifies this. Veil and Radiant are not lies, they aren't parts of her that she can just discard away. Every time Shallan shoves a trait of herself to the back of her mind, and that trait ends up in one of the personas, that trait is also removed from the main Shallan persona. If she discards the two 'masks' as broken parts, a huge part of herself will disappear as well. This is not the path into making her whole again. Take a look at Wit's advice: He is telling her that she needs to accept her pain, accept the broken parts of herself (Veil in this case) even if it hurts. Shallan doesn't acknowledge this, as you do, and she thinks they are just 'masks' and fabrications, but they are not. There is only one woman and those personas are part of the one and only Shallan who is standing up. She can only stand up when she merges back into one self. Edit: Just think back of what kind of person Shallan was in WoK and WoR, the Shallan we see at the end of OB is only a small and weak part of her.

This typo is glorious! There's a joke in here about Shallan pooping in Shardplate or something, but I'm not clever enough to make it. oops! I blame autocorrect, that's the one with the real humour here. But I'll attempt a jab at it. You can say that I over-excreted my literary abilities

I completely I agree with this. She needs to build up endurance and muscle at this point. Physical training first, sword fighting techniques later. And, I actually think, that the demanding psychical e̶x̶c̶r̶e̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ exertion and the motivation that it's needed for it, would help her realize why she absolutely needs to face her fear of using Pattern in the first place. A slower process would've helped ease herself into sword training without fragmenting her. I've been misunderstood here. I never said she shouldn't learn to use Patern as a blade, on the contrary I agree on it. That will not only make her more efficient in battle but actually wielding Pattern as a blade will make her face her memories, her past of killing her mother, and it will make her a stronger Lightweaver as well. Yes, it is only sensible to become proficient with all the tools at your disposal, but in your own time. Shallan needs to face her emotional blockage first, gain some muscle, then start training in sword techniques. This is what happens to me every time I'm told I should start exercising. It would stand to reason that forcing her to jump into sword fighting straight away, when she wasn't even mentally prepared, might have only caused her to shun the experience. Which is what Adolin did, how he forced it on her and that's why she retrieved into persona Radiance. Yes, I agree with the bold part completely and I've been misunderstood on the second part. (sorry English isn't my native language) And die from all the Attacks of Opportunity in the process . Well a good Wizard will stay far enough, on a safe distance from any close range enemies (we were talking about sword fighting right?) in order to avoid Attacks of Opportunity (maybe we should bring a DM in here? ) You honestly think that Shallan has the physical strength and experience to defend people with her swordfighting skills at this point? Yeah, she is naive enough to try I guess but I don't think she would succeed and probably at the cost of the lives involved. Yes, after a few months of all around training might put her into a physical condition to be able to defend herself as a last resort, but under no circumstances would I expect her to jump into the fight like a warrior and save the day. After at least a year of training that would be plausible, but at this point that's very unrealistic. Hope I've cleared the misunderstanding

Pattern wanted Shallan to use him as a blade, he wanted her to confront the fact that she used him to kill her mother and confront the memories that came along with that act. I do not think he meant that she should get sword-fighting training. His purpose is for Shallan to reach new self-awareness levels, it's not about physical training. Of course not, but I don't think a single or even a few lessons teach you how to sword fight. This isn't shooting practice that you can get better with a few tries at the shooting range. I would expect that sword fighting needs daily training and physical exercise to achieve. You can't really equate a couple of training sessions to the life long effort people give under Zahel's tutelage for example. It's like telling a wizard to use a rapier in DnD. They can do it sure, but they won't be using the most of their potential like that and will probably do a very bad job at it. If they run out of spells, I'd expect them to run instead. I agree on this, and I certainly hope she doesn't need to do that too often either, because it seemed to be like a last resort move and it was too draining for her. (That was more like a limit break move when you are low on HP, if you get FF references) Fortunately, she says that light weaving is more 'silent' while they are infiltrating Kholinar, so I'm hoping that maybe she won't be running out of stormlight that often. She said, that she should share with Adolin about the Ghostbloods but then said, that Veil could do it. That is not determination. So, yeah, maybe she did tell him when OB closed, maybe she didn't. Either way the fact that the whole Kholin family should've known that, especially Jasnah herself, is way too important at this point. Especially since Shallan supported Adolin to abdicate the throne, against his family's wishes. This could be considered national treason after all. Also, I do not see any intention of Shallan sharing her parents' deaths, or at least, there is no hint of that in the text. Now that her brothers have showed up, I can see tensions rising.

Cryptics are Roshar's computers, they hide a machine made of gemstones underneath their black robes

As I've stated in the past, I hate the overused love triangle trope that a loving “correct” relationship is all about companionship and hard work, instead of passion and having it easily. This is an oversimplification of how relationships happen and way too unrealistic to be given as any sort of advice. Forgive me for the long length but, maybe since English isn’t my native language, I feel like people sometimes do not understand what I’m trying to convey, so let me explain what I mean, as simply as I can. I’ll use spoiler tags to minimize length So my point is, you need to find the right amount of sustainable balance, between hard work and getting along easy, as you need the fine line between companionship and passion. So it's not about giving up one instead of the other. You need to have both in a long term romantic relationship, companionship AND passion, having moments that you put effort in it AND moments that it feels amazing being with that person even without trying too hard. Otherwise it's neither long term nor romantic. To get back on point, in the Adolin/Shallan relationship, there is some effort on both sides to keep that relationship alive but I believe that Shallan puts a lot more effort than Adolin into it, so much that it actually transforms her. A pivotal moment here is when Adolin tries to teach Shallan how to sword fight, but he completely misses the hints that she is uncomfortable in using Patternsword. On the other hand Shallan, puts so much effort on keeping that relationship alive, afraid that Adolin will break the betrothal, that she fractures herself further(and if that’s not “bending herself backwards” I don’t know what is). Radiant was created under the immediate pressure of needing to learn how to sword fight, for Adolin, which he caused just by overstepping and enforcing his own idea onto Shallan. So even from a literary perspective, I'm not sure what the whole sword fighting lesson actually offered to Shallan apart from her personality fracturing. Even if we say that the effort they both input in this relationship is on equal terms, would you say that Shallan being supportive for Adolin not feeling guilty about Sadeas, or for Adolin abdicating the throne, or the fact that Adolin unintentionally supports Shallan to dismiss her side personalities, instead of accepting them into herself, are things you are supposed to be just supportive about, without any additional effort needed? Remember, sometimes just realizing what is needed is the hardest work itself. Here, on the contrary, it feels like everything is hastily swept under the rug, in order to get on with the wedding already. What about honesty? Apart from Shallan fracturing herself over and over to the point that she herself doesn’t know what’s real or not, Shallan has killed both of her parents, why did she hide that fact from Adolin, who has lost his loving mother at a very young age? What about Shallan's involvement with the people that tried to get Jasnah killed, the Ghostbloods? Maybe that would've been important for the whole Kholin family to know, before she supported her future husband Adolin into abdicating? These are not foundations of honesty that a long lasting relationship and a good marriage is built upon. On the contrary, these can be a premonition of things that can cause hurt and mistrust in the future of that marriage. My other issue with the Shallan-Kaladin-Adolin triangle, is that it never was an actual triangle since feelings were not expressed between Shallan and Kaladin, from either of them. Shallan was self doubting enough to entrust her betrothal in Jasnah’s hands and only endorsed her relationship with Adolin, stuffing any contentious feelings for Kaladin onto Veil and rationalizing everything by blaming Veil had a “bad taste in men”. (Kaladin is a bad taste? Really?) Kaladin on the other hand was honorable enough to consider a betrothal an important oath that should be kept and I’m pretty sure if he had expressed any feelings to Shallan it would’ve had ramifications on his bond to Syl. On the contrary, he kept his distance, even after realizing his infatuation for her since the chasm scene, and he respected her choice without being the least intrusive. The fact that people were so adamant of having the "triangle" resolved is baffling to me (because it never existed), but I am happy as well that we never reached that point of drama. At least I’m happy that the relationships progressed before an actual triangle got formed, that would only cheapen the plot and the books for me. But still, I have the impression that things are now so neatly placed for the marriage either to end at some point (one way or another) or, at least, face some very serious turbulence.

I'm sorry but you are rehashing arguments already done on the thread, feel free to go back and read some of those pages. The Maya interactions all happen in Shadesmar and we do not have any other deadeye spren in the Cognitive Realm to compare what the 'normal consciousness and behaviour for deadeyes' is. For all we know it could be typical behavior for her condition and even if it isn't, it does not necessarily mean that Adolin is becoming Radiant because there are other prerequisites to that process. You cannot see why Brandon would put that in for no reason at all? It's called bait and switch. The facts do not add up that Adolin is becoming an ED and whatever arguments are presented they are only adjusted to fit that narrative and not vice versa. If you still want to believe this theory it's your choice of course but it doesn't mean that other people need to be convinced about it.

So to summarize, Adolin is becoming a Radiant without showing any Radiant or proto-Radiant signs, he is becoming an Edgedancer but has nothing in common with the other Edgedancer we know (because the other Edgedancer we know is a 'special case') and Maya is coming back to life even if she isn't showing any different signs than any other dead Shartblades we know. This whole argument stands on the 3 heartbeats of difference, which could be explained by Dalinar's Perpendicularity. I'm sorry but it's not convincing enough for me.

Kaladin was able to heal himself even before he said the 1st Ideal right? So if Adolin is that far in his Radiant progression wouldn't he be able to heal his gut wound, or at least heal it partly? Why would you think that Brandon would miss the chance of showing us Adolin self-healing, if he wanted to convince us with certainty that Adolin is reforming a nahel bond at this point? Doesn't that struck you as peculiar?

I'm not sure what you mean as 'in-world' since people interpret the in-book text differently. But in a final attempt to hopefully clarify (since English isn't my native language) the definition of 'self-evident' to me means obvious, something that shouldn't need to be explained. Clearly it isn't self-evident, since maxal mentioned a few posts ago that it isn't obvious to them, so I was trying to bring forward what other people consider as 'self-evident' in order to clarify the muddy waters of this discussion. So to my interpretation it seems as obvious from the WoB and in book text that having a dead Shardblade acts as an inhibitor to becoming a Radiant. I'm not saying that Adolin will not bond any spren because he is carrying a dead shardblade, I was just trying to point out what other people seem to refer to as 'self-evident', since obviously its not evident for everyone. Whatever you make out of these WoBs and in book text, is your own choice to make. I'm not trying to be contentious here just clarifying. Edit: And actually Sadeas had Oathbringer when Dalinar bonded Stormfather (Dalinar un-bonded the other Shardblade when SF asked him to) and if Elhokar still had his own dead Shardblade he would probably still be alive at this point.

Of course there is an assumption made somewhere in the interpretation of that WoB that might not be right, but the spren themselves have said that they don't like Radiants using dead Shardblades, and using the dead is something that is considered grotesque for them. Edit: Oh I'm not saying that Adolin will not bond any spren because he is carrying a dead shardblade, I was just trying to point out what people seem to refer to when they are saying it's 'self-evident'. Whatever you make out of these WoBs and in book text, is your own choice to make.

Probably from this WoB: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/77-shadows-of-self-lansing-signing/#e6592

What people are referring to 'self-evident' is the dead Shardblade Adolin has been carrying around from the beginning, which is conflicting to attracting another spren and forming a Nahel bond by result. And I think it is somewhat clever to do from Brandon's writing perspective, since it adds a tragic irony to the fact that Adolin felt like he lost his place in the world when the Knight Radiants appeared. It was exactly that Shardblade, that "big stick" that he has been fighting with, that had given him the social standing that he felt it was "his place in the world" to begin with. Now it's the reason he can't become a Knight Radiant. To me, unless we see something major happening that would deflect this narrative, this foreshadows why the Maya arc can't possibly end in a positive outcome.

That's a very good analogy! So following that thought, you could say that Maya isn't a person flat lining at the moment, that you can resuscitate back to life, but a corpse, that has been dead for a long time and their family (the original KR) already had their funeral, done and buried them and vanished from site.