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Good theory! I've completely missed the references of Shin invasions, good job at reminding us! I've been theorizing (a lot of people are rolling their eyes right now) that Shin are like the hobbits from LotR, somehow they aren't affected by the Surgebinding, at least not unless they are Truthless. Not sure if this is mentioned before but there is also this death rattle you might find interesting: I guess Moelach can't affect them either.

Does it say somewhere that 17th Shard should only be used for analysis and not for creating discussion exercises? As Rshara said earlier and I answered back to her: I do too mostly, otherwise I'd be flooding the forums with theory threads. It's just that I saw @jefftucker0525 voicing one of them and wanted to agree with him so he doesn't feel cornered and attacked. If you find that I've hijacked the thread and I'm completely irrelevant to the original post feel free to report me.

Come on, don't link this to the other thread just because it irks you.

Oh yes, that's cool and a lot more interesting! I initially thought that 'Shard of my soul' meant a spren, so I assumed it was a Radiant. So 'Shard of my soul' is Honor's Investiture?

You just changed your original post to answer my next post, then answered with two other posts as well All in a matter of minutes! This is what I call being 'shot down', there is this rush to dismiss another person's theory when they just posted the thing. Then a ton of other people answer, some without even giving the amount of time to interpret the meaning correctly and provide facts (source and quotes) and certainly not equating to the amount and effort the OP has spent. What I'm saying this attitude stifles diversity and new opinions when they try to be expressed. I never said that. I'm saying, instead of feeling responsible of drilling into every newbie what the current cognitive general opinion of the forums is, give people some space and let them express themselves even if you don't personally agree with them. Now to address the arguments: Yes, he could purposeful be misleading us into thinking that Ash(Baxil's Mistress) is the same as Shalash (who also had the Ash pseudonym). Read my thought of process in my previous post. Yes, Kalak and Nale, since they are lucid enough, they probably know who and where Shalash is, either if it is Baxil's mistress or not. He is the maddest of them all so I can see how he wouldn't actually. No. Shalash is that one. Yes exactly why he could be purposefully doing this. If Baxil's mistress isn't actually Shalash, it's probably someone we know. These are good points actually and it probably has to do with the explanation of her insanity. That's as far as my answer can get right now. I'm expressing the original idea in the hope to find a like minded person, that would entertain the thought with me so we figure it out. Please bare with me and assume that she is Chanarach, join me in the thought process here will you? Even if you don't agree at all. How would Chanarach be linked to this action, based on her values and the certain insanity that the Heralds have? Just entertain the thought and let negativity flow away from your body.

I agree with that. But "shot down" is a little bit more aggressive of a phrase to use . Still, I have no issue with disagreement. I love theories! (edit: so much even that I'll put myself in the disadvantageous position to express it and argue about it) It's just that I don't feel the responsibility to 'guide new people to the fandom'. As I said earlier

So based on this theory, what's the interpretation of this death rattle?

Yes, I didn't understand that reference the first time I read it that I assumed I was being mocked. My bad. @digitalbusker I agree that we don't have the full set of orders (or their corresponding Heralds) it's just that I think that Ash (as the person currently assumed as such by the end of OB, who is the same that destroys Shalash's statues and Baxal's mistress from tWoK) is not the Herald Shalash, but Chanarach (as part of Dustbringer order). ....And that Shallan stays as the representative of Lightweavers I know what an analogy is It's more wisely used as a method of expression, a comparison between one thing and another, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification. Because when used as an argument we are at risk of making a "faulty analogy" instead. Why not both? Wouldn't you think that would be a lot more "balanced" and an achievement to have on your bookshelf? Also, I'm under the impression that it's both the specific characters and the Orders / Heralds representative of that order from this WOB: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/3-firefight-chicago-signing/#e113 To clarify, yes, that was my intention. As I said above, I believe that Baxil's mistress is Chanarach and she is destroying Shalash's statues for a completely different reason than we think. Not because she is mad at her own self but because she wants to assume Shalash's identity. I disagree. I actually find it odd that BS specifically tries to clarify that when he says Ash, he links her to Baxil's mistress, but when he says Jezrien's daughter, he says Shalash. Now who's equating two things that are not the same? Just because Ash(Baxil's mistress) destroys Shalash statues doesn't equate that she is Shalash. If I ride a bike and you ride a bike it doesn't mean that we are the same person. But if I was trying to impersonate you I would ride a bike just to convince of the identity. Quite, honestly I'm not sure why she would do it but we do know that Heralds go mad. It seems that some go a lot more mad than others though and I wonder if that's related to how much time they spent in Damnation. In order to try and make more sense to you, (if that's possible) my whole logic started from the fact that a Lightweaver tends to take on personas and hiding his/her original identity, as part of a defensive mechanism. (at least that's what Shallan does but it would also makes sense to put that kind of power into espionage use). So Shalash, a mad Herald, of a Lightweaver-kind of power, would make more sense that she would be lost in those personas and unable to be found. It kinda seems like a waste to have that opportunity as an author and not use it, right? BS could purposeful be misleading us into thinking that Ash(Baxil's Mistress) is the same as Shalash (who also had the Ash pseudonym) only to make the revelation more impact-ful. Hahaha, okay. I admit I'm not always completely rational but I do admit this is just a theory. Even I don't know if I'm right. I don't want to argue @RShara. You are entitled to your theories, I'm entitled to mine. It's just a forum for discussion. I'm not here to prove I'm smart. Yes, I have come to realize that is how things go on the 17th Shard even if I did hope, when I joined, initially, that it would be different than Reddit.

Aha that's interesting! Can you give me more details on why you believe this?

I don't know if Hoid and Mraize are the same person, but I kinda think they aren't. I don't see how this is relevant Why are you so set to dismiss this that you go so far as to come up with something completely ridiculous and compare it. Cannot the same thing be said for a lot of theories going on on the forums? What kind of argument is this dude?

I do too mostly, otherwise I'd be flooding the forums with theory threads. It's just that I saw @jefftucker0525 voicing one of them and wanted to agree with him so he doesn't feel cornered and attacked. Again, as I said in my previous post I'm not saying that Ash isn't Shalash's nickname (there is also the curse 'Ash's eyes in book) but the person we know as Ash isn't actually Shalash but Chanarach taking Shalash's identity. It would stand to reason that if she is impersonating she would be doing things that Shalash would normally do. I know it's far fetched, but it's not completely disapproved at this point, is it? We have to see Ash doing something she couldn't be doing unless she is Shalash, even by impersonating her, and Chanarach being identified as another person in the book.

You seem like a smart person so you are probably right. Still, I retain my right to have my own tinfoil theory just because I'm a little dense and coo coo in the head

As @RShara is stating I'm stretching the text to fit my conclusions, like a lot of people are doing on this forum. That's the point of a theory isn't it? IT's not proven, but it's not denied as well. If it was a fact it wouldn't be a theory. Either way, I'm not saying that Ash isn't Shalash's nickname (there is also the curse 'Ash's eyes in book) but the person we know as Ash isn't actually Shalash but Chana taking Shalash's place. But again, it's a theory just like everyone else's theories on this forum. If it turns out right or wrong, we have to actually RAFO.

@Weltall The fact that is all paraphrased is exactly my point. Even doesn't say that Ash is Shalash, just that we've seen her in books 'running around' As for Taln, he is completely disoriented and he knew Chanarach as well, so he might be completely confused of whom he is recognizing.

I'm still not sure I completely understood the theory (sorry I'm kinda dense sometimes) but I think the problem of this theory isn't whether and how Kaladin's oath deteriorates in comparison to the Recreance but how unlikely the scenario of all the Knight Radiants and all the radiant spren agreed for the spren to commit suicide, simultaneously and not tell anyone about it. It kinda has way too many assumptions don't you think? ^ This is actually an argument against the theory, isn't it?

Maybe Jasnah knows and she hasn't told? It might not be the most sensible move, because she is still crazy... Yeah, I'm thinking Chanarach actually. If she is a Herald, the above still apply, even if she isn't consciously trying to take Shalash's identity. Not sure how to counter argue that. That makes completely more sense than my coo coo theory so I'm canceling my initial thought. Not.

Oh? Somehow I was under the impression that the whole Cosmere story was going to be resolved in SA. Not sure what you exactly mean by 'bad idea' but yeah, I'm kinda leaning towards the theory that Unity (former Honor) is currently the 3rd Shard on Roshar right now. BTW, I didn't mean to express myself directly at you, I'm just excited and quite frankly sleep deprived.

The theory that Ash is Shalash is exactly that, a theory and never proved in the books. She destroys Shalash's statues, but that doesn't prove that she is Shalash herself. She could be trying to take over Shalash's identity, convince society that she is her and by destroying evidence of how Shalash actually looked like. Also, Ash is said to be one of the 10 SA books POV and if she indeed is Shalash, that would mean we are lacking the Dustbringer order from the books but at the same time have two Lightweavers POVs. So... I also believe in this ^ at the moment.

Yeah, it could be. It could also be a placeholder for him to decide what to do later on. Who knows.

Actually, that's exactly were my thought process is going as well. If you only knew the power of the Dark Side you'd join me and together we will rule the galaxy Yeah, that could be it! Or it could be something like 'whatever was left from Honor'. For instance, say that Honor split himself into the Ten Heralds by detaching himself from his 'Unity' intent. I mean, how can you possibly split an intent that a part of it actually means unity? First you remove that intent in a separate Shard maybe? (much like a reverse logic of Harmony). Maybe that's why the Heralds weren't 'honorable' enough to keep themselves united and left Taln behind in Damnation. "Three Shards have existed on Roshar" is an answer given at least as back as 2011, where only the Way of Kings was published. This cannot possibly mean that other Shards cannot travel to Roshar in the future, since we have way too many Cosmere Shards we haven't seen yet and there are also "The Letters" that imply that help is being asked from the rest of the Shards to interfere dealing with Odium. Somehow I don't think Sanderson would destroy the possibility of that ever happening by saying 'There will ever be only 3 Shards on Roshar and that's that' right after he published the first book. Also, if a theory of 'Honor downgraded into Unity in order to create the Heralds' actually works that would mean that there are still three Shards on Roshar, just that Unity is there instead of Honor. I'm sorry if I'm not making much sense, I am sleep deprived as well right now. My mind went on vacation to coo coo theory land last night and refused to shut down

'wicked-looking' isn't a special descriptor enough huh? Edit: Also, the Fused doesn't seem that amused about getting a satisfying kill.

It's a good theory. What I don't understand though is why Stormfather is so negative against humans. You are saying he was one of the spren that didn't know?

I honestly do not want to entice any more disparity, but can we hypothesize for a minute a scenario that Odium might try to gain ground on Adolin's psych and manipulate him, through Maya's revival? If he has such a strong passion to become a Radiant, that could end up being his weakness. There is still a lot of mystery surrounding hard magic physics, especially how Fused 'souls' reincarnate to other Singer bodies and how Moash changed into Vyre, so maybe Sanderson deliberately wants us to hope for her successful revival only to reveal that wasn't normally possible in the first place. That would make an emotionally charged plot twist. Bare with me. I found this bit on the Mayalaran thread: It's interesting. There's some odd levels of connection to eyes and magic on Roshar. In the first book Kal and Szeth both blink several timed while activating Lashings(Haven't looked through the other two books to see if it continues). Red Eyes are a big deal related to the thrill. Radiants get light eyes. Rosharan blades(but only Rosharan blades) burn out the eyes. Somehow in this case it reminded me of the gems used to make a connection to the blade. But beyond that I couldn't say. That's just an intuition. All those things together do suggest a connection between eyes and the spiritual realm on Roshar. If there is a connection of eyes and spiritual realm, maybe that means that Maya's connection to her spirit is severed. And there is also how Fused eyes glow differently than Radiants'. Could this mean that in order to attach Maya back to her spiritual part, Voidlight can be used instead of Stormlight? At the end of OB, Mr. T was discussing with Odium that he shouldn't challenge Dalinar now that he has achieved Perpendicularity, he is too powerful. So it stands to reason that Odium will be planning to turn the tables somehow. What about the trap that Sja-anat mentioned? She said she was compelled to make the Oathgate not work as they expected it and so our group of bad-chull heroes ended up in Shadesmar. After a small adventure in the land of spren, Fused were waiting for them at the Oathgate. So Odium was expecting that they would attempt to leave from there, so this was still part for the trap plan. And then this happened: The Fused changed weapon. Why not finish Adolin off with the lance? Maybe this sword had significance? And it was supposed to strike Adolin, but it hit Maya instead. Thoughts?

Um, I'm not too confident on my knowledge of the general Cosmere background as I always discover theories that long time fans seem to take for granted, but I'll take a shot at this and fell free to shoot me down. We know there are 16 Shards of Adolnasium, but we don't even know the names and the intent they represent. We have witnessed Preservation and Ruin, two seemingly countering intents that tried to overcome one another on Scaram. If Odium and Autonomy collaborated into killing another Shard, doesn't it come to reason that it could be Unity itself? It feels that either I haven't understood something from Dalinar's narrative, or a huge part of the story has been forgotten that we haven't seen yet.

That and she actually moved to save his life, encouraged him when he nearly died as well. Yeah but it takes an amount of heartbeats to summon her because, unlike normal nahel bond spren, Maya is actually dead. So actually, this is not how it normally happens with all the other Radiants. As far as, "she actually moved to save his life' you are referring to this part, right? This happens in Shadesmar, which is the only place she actually manifests. It doesn't mean that she can manifest properly in the Physical realm, other than in the Shardblade form with an attached polestone (which is kind of a fabrial?). So, currently, I'm still skeptical of how the first ideal can be said in order to create the nahel bond, assuming of course, that the same process as a normal Radiant is still in effect.