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I haven't been part of the forums when WoR was released so forgive me if this has been done before. I'd like y'all to give input about Adolin's sense of morality, because frankly I've started believing he doesn't have a personal sense of moral code. We need evidence that he has a conscience and that his actions are drived by his innate sense of right and wrong, and not by social ideals or his family's laws/code. To clarify, this is not an Adolin bashing thread, I want to see logical arguments and parts in the books. I know that we do not have a lot of Adolin POV, so that will probably lead to a lot of misleading and assumptions, but either way whatever parts we can use that indicate what drives his sense of moral are most welcome. EDIT: CLARIFICATION!!!! My point for making this thread isn't about what you and I think about his morality, but to define where his morality stands. I believe his morality is 'I'd everything to keep the Kholin family in power' and I ask people to give counter examples from the books that show his personal moral code, where he does something that does not give power to the Kholin family, but he does it either way because he thinks it's the right thing to do. I added the Sadeas murder as a second question, in order to see where people stand in terms of how moral it is to kill an unarmed evil man. If my comments on Sadeas' murder anger you please do not comment on them. We clearly disagree. My point is not to disagree, but to agree on a common ground, which can only be parts from the books. /CLARIFICATION!!!! ============================================================================================================= I'll start with his worst bit. Sadeas' murder. 1. He is troubled that the "world has shifted" with the discovery of Urithiru. Specifically his position within society is changing. Is this so important to him that it gives him an identity crisis? 2. He describes himself as being a powerful man being charitable in betrothing "a relatively minor scion of a distant house". Does he stay betrothed because he wants it or because it was initially the charitable, and now socially logical thing to do? 3. He wanted to kill Sadeas beforehand and his presence challenges his sense of control over himself. He even visualizes Sadeas' face as bloody before he murders him. We also have another part before this scene that shows that he wanted to kill Sadeas before, but the only thing stopping him was "it would undermine the very laws and codes Adolin’s father was working so hard to uphold" edit: It was premeditated, not 'in the heat of passion'. 4. Something clearly snapped within him. It's just not irrevocably enraged. Is there a 'yet' implied here ? Is this foreshadowing to his future? 5. This wasn't 'in the heat of passion' but clearly in cold blood. There is no remorse there and he knows it himself as he does it. Removed because I messed up the quoting! 6. He thinks he is a worse man than his father. I this the moment of this realization or has he already done other things that made him conclude to this beforehand? Also, we see him placing his father as his moral code. If his father's placement changes, what will that do to him? 7. Again he doesn't recognize Sadeas as a person or someone that he personally knows but 'a highprince', that's how society views him. He clearly detaches himself from the connection to the victim. 8. He is considering of retrieving the Shardblade later on, either for the fortune, himself or father. I'd personally bet on 'for his father'. 9. He is cool headed enough to not get blood on his clothing, cut off his cuffs and erase all evidence that proved that he was there in the first place. Another evidence of cold blood.

Are you referring to the focus characters for the 6-10 books? Can we have the reference of proof to this? This is very important. I disagree. Not having guilt over at least one murder is actually proof that a person does not have a personal conscience. Even if you justify it somehow the guilt doesn't just 'go away', you just learn to live with the guilt for the rest of your life. I'm preparing a post on Sadeas' murder, which I'm looking for the right thread to place right now. We can go through all the bits together if you'd like. Oh I love Dalinar, but yes I'd die (pun intended) to see more of Adolin's POV. He is intriguing exactly because his inner thoughts and reasoning, are the only way we can tell if his actions (both good and bad) are done (a) consciously -in full control or not- and (b) with conscience -with or without a personal moral sense-. I'm not sure if I missed it somewhere, but does he show remorse or guilt regarding harm done to another person anywhere? Does he hate his Shardblade? Does he hate killing people in war or in duel? I think that he isn't a moral person by himself. He doesn't have the sense of what feels is right in his gut. He is only following society's rules and his father's code. That's a bit that shows that the only thing withholding him from killing Sadeas is Dalinar's laws and codes. Wouldn't you say that finding out that his father was even more evil in the past than he thought would make him sink even lower on a moral scale and potentially make him open to Hatred? ( He recognizes himself as 'a worse man than his father is' during Sadeas' murder) Wouldn't you say that if he turned out to be the "Champion with Nine shadows" that would serve as part of the bigger narrative? @DeployParachuteGood job of finding that bit with Tarah! The colorful stone symbolizes not only his guilt for the dead that he let die, but possibly, his guilt for the important ones he never loved.

Oh I love all the DnD alignment discussions I'd put Kaladin on Chaotic Good because he acts as his conscience directs, he desires freedom but holds a resentment toward legitimate authority, he is altruistic, he respects life and is concerned about the dignity of sentient beings (even if they aren't humans). And I'd put Adolin on Lawful Evil because he is obedient to authority, he is reliable, traditional but sometimes judgmental. He methodically takes what he wants (dueling) within the limits of a code of tradition, loyalty, or order. http://engl393-dnd5th.wikia.com/wiki/Alignment It's strange because instinctively I wouldn't make out Adolin as Evil in any way, but within the descriptions provided in the DnD rules, that's how he would be aligned. Welcome on board the forums (and the ship) But No! Do not give up hope yet! Sanderson would be satisfied by how the OB ending was handled because there is a lot of evidence pointing that he is making a parallel between Dalinar-Navani-Gavinor and Kaladin-Shallan-Adolin. So it could all be part of his plan of promoting that Shallan is capable of loving both men. And also, if you acknowledge that he deliberately foreshadows the Shallan and Kaladin relationship (as it is evident is so many ways), you have to either convince yourself that Sanderson did that by mistake or trickery, which none of the two sound like him as an author. Just read back on all these marvelous 50 pages of thread and you'll come out a changed person.

I think we all have that same primal brutality inside us like Adolin. That desire for violence and gore is part of our survival instinct as animals. The difference lies on (a) how you keep that side of you contained. Do you channel it into another direction? Do you delude it in drink or drugs? Or do you smother it down inside? (b) why do you keep that side of you contained. Is it a moral code? Is it fear of your image? Or to protect your loved ones from yourself? Frankly, I can't tell how Adolin would react. Either I haven't been paying enough attention or it remains to be seen.

It would make sense... Maybe that Prince Charming image is his cage... Going back to the "whitespine uncaged" thing. I can't help but think, that there is something more... primal and blackthorn-y beneath his mask. Yeah, maybe the facade is his cage, but I don't want to believe that anyone's true self is dark. I don't want to see anyone being charged with an evil predisposition just because 'it's in his blood'. That's a logical fallacy that shouldn't exist, because simply you can't blame children for their parents actions. I want to believe every person is primarily good inside, they just make the wrong choices in life.

I like Adolin but I still can't see what part of Shallan attracts him so much, apart from the fact that she is an oddity to him. Based on what kind of person Dalinar was as a father, how can that not affect you on an existential level? I think he has always lived in his father's shadow. The fact that he appears as a personification of Prince Charming isn't coincidental; it's exactly what he has been trying to do his whole life. Always striving to be the hero that is both an honorable noble and a royal warrior. So, to me, all the good things he does (jumping in battle without regards to his safety, standing up for the people beneath his social status) are done for the wrong reasons. He does them to fit that image. (Dressing up as a royal and being a womanizer, for me, are proof that he cares about his image a lot. ) Even his presumable guilt for Sadeas' murder disappears, when everyone else says 'it's okay'. He didn't really have real guilt for the act of murder, he didn't feel it was wrong, but he feared mostly how other people will recognize him as a monster instead of a hero. It was just fear of losing that Prince Charming image. So after the plot bombs explode that his father isn't the hero he always thought he was, but a mass murder that even killed his own mother, I think that will affect him on an existential level. Because 'Dalinar is a hero' was what he based the facade he made of himself. Welcome @Ize19! And I agree completely with you on this point. I've even raised it in this thread around ...20 pages back... actually. Here is the bit that made her become 'determined':

@SLNC Again you have eloquently described in detail everything I think and feel about the ASK thing. The bits from the chasm scenes you have quoted also bring me to tears every storming time and I base the whole validity of the Shalladin ship upon those scenes. For me, nothing else Sanderson has ever written was so romantically intense and infused with meaningful existential connection. I refuse to accept it is not intentional. So... @PhineasGage I've already sent you a PM regarding the first 13% bit of the essay. Sorry, I'm still in the process of reading the whole of it. But I'd like to share one part of that said feedback here, since I wasn't part of the forums until after OB's release. I was trying to dissect the evidence in @PhineasGage 's essay into levels of intimacy in order to understand exactly how far both relationships go based on the actions between the involved characters and not the outcome of the story:1. interest 2. attraction 3. emotional connection 4. influence (be influenced by)5. romantic emotions ( Have in mind I have no background knowledge on psychology or human behavior, so if you think these are wrong, please fell free to correct me. ) I think we can all agree that the chasms scenes are proof that Shallan and Kaladin have reached the point of 'emotional connection' towards one another But as I've said in my quote above, I think that Kaladin's feelings towards Shallan have moved beyond that, he is now being influenced by her. I think the exact turning point in the books is in the chasms as well "Oh, storms. She smiled anyway." and he himself rationalizes those feelings as "I felt . . . something. A lightening of my burdens when I was near her. " She now influences him to rethink his attitude towards lighteyes. Now on Shallan's side, I think she was on the brink of becoming influenced by him after the end of the Battle of Thaylen Field, but was so scared of the prospect that her betrothal to Adolin was not justified, that she instead forced herself to be 'influenced' by Adolin. He now influences her as to who the 'real' Shallan is. Lastly, I'm not even sure how far Adolin's feelings towards Shallan are at the moment. Attraction maybe? Okay okay, let's say emotional connection. But Influence? Would you say that he stopped feeling guilty for killing Sadeas because of her? Is that a good influence?

Okay, I'm taking a break from this thread as it seems that the people mostly commenting here have their minds set on something very particular. It was nice being part of this, even for a little while. Take care.

You are missing my point completely. I'm not saying it will be either (a) or (b), I'm saying it can be something else entirely. For example, having in mind that Adolin might go completely darth vader on her, Shallan could become a single devoted parent with a lot of help from her family and friends in order to balance KR responsibilities. That could open the opportunity to possibly include another person as a foster parent.

Thank you! That is exactly why I think Shallan isn't making the right decision in marrying Adolin. She is deluded in what she expects to find on the other side and she has convinced herself that she loves him, because frankly she didn't trust her own self in making that decision. (because of Kabsal) On the other hand, if we analyse Dalinar's wedding, we can see that he is contemplating on the ceremony's formalities, proving the point that he did think of his union with Navani very very seriously. (he had plenty of time) If there is a 15 year gap between 5 and 6, maybe there would be another year or two gap between 4 and 5. That would make the characters who are children now around the same ages as our main characters in the first 5 books. I'm not saying that is how things are going to be, I'm just entertaining the idea maybe? Why is raising a child treated as either a success or fail case? success : (a) 100% attention of two parents, where they live in a peaceful happily ever after environment, dedicating all of their attention and time on parenting fail: (b) child neglect, both parents not present as the child is raised by nannies, multiple personalities of a mother cause severe trauma to child It's definitely not as simple as that and I'd ask that we try and look at this prospect on an objective point of view and not projecting our own life experiences on it. Sometimes raising a child is something in between (a) and (b) and children are raised to be very interesting characters. A lot of people raise kids even if they are not living the most ideal life circumstances. Some people raise children during warfare, others are single parents, other people are foster parents, other manage to have a career in parallel just fine. Just think the possibilities of it because that is exactly what could make this an interesting path for the narrative and a new level of challenge for BS.

@Dreamstorm Good job!!! I've totally missed the whitespine as a persistent metaphor for Adolin, but as soon as you noted it, it started making sense. Now that's a good foreshadowing element I'd love to re-discover as I'm re-reading the books again. Thank you for sharing! Yep. Society highlights the wedding day so much that people have raised their expectations on what to expect about it. In real life, it's nothing like a fairy tale ending. It's just another day, a formality, you go through to establish that your relationship with the person you are already set upon is someone you are willing to spend the rest of your life with. The wedding day itself isn't the day you decided you love that said person, but it takes a process to reach that point. Also, even if you do have the most perfect of days on your wedding day, just because you feel 'the happiest day of your life' it doesn't mean that you'll have a happy marriage. @SLNC I appreciate that you are a lot more receptive this morning than last night and I'm sorry if I seem set on having her go through a teenage pregnancy. I assure you I am not, exactly because I have personal experience on the matter. (not me personally, but someone very close). But sometimes a story needs to have a 'worst case scenario' to prove a point. I'm mostly thinking 'what does it serve to the narrative for Adolin and Shallan to get married in the middle of the books?'. We've already witnessed young children being introduced in the story (Elhokar's son, Kaladin's baby brother, an abandoned child in Kholinar) so if there will be a huge time lapse between books 5 and 6, is the narrative leading us into a new generation of characters? If yes, I'd love to see Shallan's baby a part of it, although looking at all the foreshadowing surfacing about Adolin, I'm not sure how much he will be part of it. On a lighter note, my possible narrative could be subconsciously affected by the star wars hype these days...

Not necessarily.

Okay, let's consider the baby as a hypothetical outcome to the marriage. I know many of you may find the idea daunting, but I'd say challenge yourselves and try to not project your own feelings towards raising a child. Think neutral. I think that is exactly why there can be one year time lapse, to avoid the uncomfortable position of explaining how it all worked while pregnant. This is exactly how I see that it could work out, at least in the beginning while the baby is still in its first years and a practical absence might not affect the upbringing as much. At least until she actually gets used to the idea of being a mother, to stabilize her personalities and for 'end of the world' events to settle down. At some point she should be able to raise it peacefully right? (between books 5 and 6 ?)

@GoddessIMHO I feel the need to express that I do not agree with your video, but that would only prove its own point :S

This is what Jasnah said about Amaram's mother, so I wouldn't take it literally. It could be a distasteful attempt at insult towards him, as in 'you were born prematurely, no wonder you aren't perfectly okay in the head' As for Shallan having a baby, I can see it as a possible catalyst in moving the narrative towards a problematic marriage.

Have you published this anywhere? If yes please share I was referring to what @invisbleblue said earlier in the thread, marked below in bold. It reminded me of this WoB: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171/#e8310 I think that Sanderson is deliberately is associating his male main characters to Honour and his female main characters to Cultivation. Maybe there is a hidden meaning regarding the lore to it?

So, I've been brooding about Jasnah's ketek on the occasion of Shallan's wedding. United obviously means, the state Shallan and Adolin are in now. And the new beginnings of that state sing: "Defying truth, love. Truth defy!" I think that "love" is supposed to be Shallan and is the addressee. Or that their love just defies truth, but I'm still sure, that Shallan is the addressee of the ketek. Basicially, the marriage, as that is supposed to be the "new beginning", tells Shallan to keep defying the truth, which would correlate with the ending of OB. The imperative ("Truth defy!" or "Defy truth!", I think the switch is a poetic device here to make it form the ketek) is indicative here. Though I don't know what to make of: "Sing beginnings, new unity." That Shallan needs a new beginning to find new unity within herself? Could that be foreshadowing, that Adolin dies? Because the marriage will keep her from accepting truth? Or is it just, that beginnings sing to the new unity/marriage. @SLNC You know I'm with you on most foreshadowing points, but apart from the bit that Shallan is love, the rest is both of us having wishful thinking here. For any person reading this, we do not mean that Jasnah knows anything about the future and thus foreshadowing the marriage, but her intention is to wish a happy marriage to the newly weds. We are just exploring the possibility that through the text itself, BS takes the opportunity to foreshadow the future of the marriage, because it's written in a way that it has a dual interpretation. From the rest of the excerpts in OB, I'm pretty sure he is plainly trolling us. So, how I interpret it is: part a : United (both of you Shallan and Adolin), new beginnings sing (your marriage celebrates): "Defying truth (defy all the problems that reality might raise), love (just love. it is the solution to everything). part b: , love (love is powerful). Truth defy (it can defy reality)! " Sing beginnings (promise a beginning) , new unity (of a new unity). So the part a is for Adolin, part b is for Kalladin, with both of them focusing on the word love, who is obviously Shallan. (back to my theory that women are of cultivation)

Yes, I agree completely and the foreshadowing has always been there indicating towards this right from the beginning of tWoK. And the more you re-read the books form the beginning the more obvious it becomes. What was the ship's name that brought Shallan in Kharbranth and into the focal point in the beginning of our story ? "Wind's Pleasure" Coincidence? I don't think so.

I see this a lot on the forums on justifying the Shallan - Adolin perspective as a proper ending, but I believe it actually proves the opposite. 1. BS states here that the romantic angle was tweaked as he was building up the split personality approach. Not that the romantic angle was created to reference the split personality approach. The romantic angle preexisted the split personalities, so the argument that Kaladin's emotions are used as a plot device is null and void. (and none of this is new, since the chemistry between Shallan and Kaladin was obvious in the chasm scene in WoR, the the split personas as an issue surfaced in OB) 2. The fact that BS has taken such good care building the romantic (tri)angle, proves that he wanted both outcomes to be able to convince the readers. So all the foreshadowing and clues are obviously done deliberately and since nothing really ever happened between Shallan and Kaladin, it's pretty obvious we should expect something to happen there. At some point. I just don't know how soon that will be. @invisbleblue sorry I've run out of reputation points to give you but I'd like you to know I loved your post. This particular bit reminded me of this WoB: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171/#e8310 Coincidence ? I do not think so...

@analyticaposteriori if only I could give you more reputation...

Given the chance that "9 Unmade are 9 Herald named spren" is true, even if the honorblades are fully functional and grant full powers, it doesn't mean that spren still reside in them. There could be leftover power in the blades after they've been abandoned. I'm also wondering whether breaking that strong bond could've been a catalyst in driving the Heralds mad. Odium could've granted them 'freedom' to the near-death Made and in exchange they gave him control. So unless we see how an honourblade manifests in Shadesmar or more about the Shen who possess most of them, we can't tell if they are linked or not.

I'm not sure myself which way I'm suggesting, but I was thinking something along what the named spren are to Knights Radiants. Maybe the Made where the spren bonded to the Heralds? So they had an alliance with the Heralds, as a manifestation of Honour and/or Cultivation to grant power? Maybe in the form of the swords the Heralds used? But when the 9 Heralds abandoned the Oathpact and Talenel'Elin in the Desolation, the Made were left vulnerable for Odium to corrupt and take over. Then they were Unmade.

Yes, I agree that he needs to build it up just like Teft and Dalinar's addiction and Kaladin's depression, but addiction and depression are well-known issues these days. Even a person without scientifically related background (such as myself) is aware, can recognize addiction and depression and know a possible solution. But OSDD isn't that clear. What I was trying to say here, is that it will take a lot more work for BS to explain what is going here, if this indeed is OSDD, even if he explains it in every day life language. Unless I see the book, I'm not betting on anything. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. But there could be something else happening related to the KR powers that we are not aware of yet. Something of supernatural nature that could end the marriage in a less... murdering way. Extended life maybe?

Just because some people have gone through a troubled life but came out stronger, doesn't belittle another person's struggle. I think that is the basis of all human misunderstanding really. Just because holocaust survivors have gone through more trouble than Kaladin, doesn't make his slavery insignificant. (I'll ignore the fact that we are comparing real life vs fiction) Just because Kaladin has gone through so much more trouble than Adolin, doesn't make Adolin any less interesting. Just because Shallan's POV in OB evolves around the Kalladin VS Adolin perspective, doesn't mean that 'we' as readers should fall in the same trend. I refuse to dismiss one in favor of the other and I refuse to idolize one to the detriment of the other. Can't one just like both of them ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Back to the point. Adolin is interesting because of his duality and that duality is expressed very well already. His good parts: His bad parts: And that's what makes him interesting enough to me. On one hand he is refreshing, since he appears to be the only one without psychological issues and on the other hand, it's that he appears to be the only one without psychological issues. And I see potential here, not for him as a person necessarily, but definitely in becoming far more interesting in character development. I can't wait to see what BS has in store for him and since some of us have grown to like him, I need to see him redeemed. Both from a disappointed reader's perspective but also for him, to find redemption as a character.

Um.. I have no idea why I got this impression in my head, that Ba-Ado-Mishram maybe is the Everstorm itself?