insert_anagram_here

I didn't mean that they were made of Odium as we know they pre-existed the Shattering. I mean that they became of Odium prior to coming on Roshar, that's why they needed to be nine before, but became ten on Roshar, in order to facilitate Honor's number. I've been under the impression that the 'Fused' have only appeared after the Everstorm, did you mean the Listeners? I never said that the Oathpact happened before they came to Roshar, but there was another pact made with Odium on another planet. That is indeed a brilliant thread! Thanks for providing the heads up! (sorry I'm out of upvotes )

This could be completely irrelevant but during Baxil's chapter, were we are first introduced with Baxil's mistress, Baxil is discussing with the other servant about the Nightwatcher's powers. There is this interplay of description between Baxil's mistress destroying art and the discussion on Nightwatcher. Presumably she is Ash, a Herald and I wonder if there is significant connection to this.

Okay, what about the Everstorm? Like the water cycle on Earth, what if in Roshar the Highstorm's Investiture, which normally charges up spheres, is slowly being joined/corrupted by the Everstorm's Investiture now?

Could Stormlight work instead of Honor's investiture? There has to be a reason they added the gems on the dead Shardblades right?

I like this theory, it ties up a lot of things together. Maybe there are nine Unmade and ten Herald because humans were of Odium initially, their initial Heralds were nine, but when they came to Roshar one more was added in order to satisfy Honor, as part of the Oathpact. Ishar, the tenth is obviously that one and he probably doesn't have the respective divine attributes of Odium. He seems to have gone completely bonkers though, so how does that tie up here?

Do we know this? Could there be a Dawnshard linked to this event instead?

If it's obvious, it doesn't mean it's going to happen. Sometimes it's a red herring. Think about Elhokar, he was obviously going to save his son and there were hints that he would become a Lightweaver. Did he? Personally it bothered me that Adolin was playing the dress up during a very serious mission such as the Kholinar infiltration, which is occupied and with a severe security risk level raised. There are people dying out on the streets, 3 Unmade corrupting everything, he is escorting the couped king whom he is supposed to protect, he is part of the princedom, the rightfully legal ruling family, but he has time to care for having his clothes tailored (which currently I have no idea why and I'm too afraid to ask). All the while, Kaladin is trying to infiltrate the city guard in order to free the city and Shallan is trying to feed the people but gets her conscience crushed because she couldn't save a single kid. Yeah, that's so self-absorbed isn't it? Welcome to the thread btw and even though you are expressing very good points, none of them is new on this thread. Simply put, there are 95 pages here because there were so many points to address in this discussion. I would kindly advise that you at least go read the document linked above.

Thanks for all the input, I'll be updating the chart soon so I'd appreciate more comments on that as well. I got another question that relates to this: Could it be possible that now that Honor is dead Highstorms aren't 'touched by Honor' anymore? Knowing that Sja-anat exists, could she have somehow corrupted Stormfather and the use of Stormlight is now corrupted by her presence? Especially if that use of Stormlight is no longer filtered by the Ideals and a spren's approval? Edit: ...or maybe not Sja-anat but the Everstorm?

I understand things a lot more visually so I made this in order to put my personal thoughts in order in regards to how the magic system works on Roshar. Since I'm new to the Cosmere (haven't read all the related books tbh) and I'm still trying to decipher the epilogue notes from the books, I wanted to put this out here and let me in on your thoughts, in order to make things clearer. So how I've understood it so far, in order for a power to manifest in the Physical realm, it needs to exist in the Cognitive as an idea and pump Investiture from the Spiritual realm. Or to word it even more correctly, it's from the Spiritual realm that Investiture "falls" to the Cognitive, where some of it gets funneled into an idea/ideal/intent, and that idea manifests in the Physical world as a power like Heraldic powers, Surgebinding, Voidbinding, Old Magic and fabrials. I've put up on the drawing above of what I currently understand as correct, but please feel free to correct me. Interesting bits that I want to verify: - Knight Radiants drew their power (presumably) from Cultivation and Honor (and no other Shard?). So what happens now that Honor is dead? - what Shard is behind the fabrials? - when Honor died and his investiture started diminishing, the Oathpact weakened (got smaller and smaller) and that's why the Heralds might've started to go mad. I'm guessing their divine attributes were sustained by the Oathpact, and that's why they slowly started going mad? So it would make sense that Nale, who has become part of a Radiant order, has somehow started gaining Investiture from somewhere else, so his divine attributes would no longer be affected by Honor's intent anymore? - gems and gemhearts somehow override the cognitive idea? - Parshendi had gems in their hair, could that have been the reason they were available for Odium to turn them into Fused?

Fine, keep on providing paraphrased WOBs as counter examples. I've already told you what I think of this. Edit: I'm willing to take paraphrased WOBs at face value, only if there are two paraphrased WOBs that say the same thing. Otherwise

Sorry, I can't remember if there is a reference saying that Baxil's mistress did that. Could Gavilar had it removed for another reason ?

I don't want to get into that part of my theory yet, quite frankly because it's even crazier and I even haven't answered to myself all the questions about that yet. I need to thoroughly read the books at least one more time to provide parts that support it. Just have in mind that when Kalak said that 'Ash is getting worse' he didn't necessarily mean Baxil's mistress, but Shalash. So, our impostor isn't pretending to be a Herald, she is a Herald, just a different one than who we think. As you mentioned Chana and Taln were both soldiers, they could've had spent a lot of time together and from Ash's POV in OB she talks about his hands, denoting that there could be romantic feelings towards him. Now during Baxil's POV chapter, Baxil is talking with the other mistress follower about Nightwatcher's boons/curse, as the mistress is destroying art. It kind of feels that this is done purposefully on the author's part either to link the mistress's insanity to the Nightwatcher or to distract us from the fact that it's her Herald's insanity manifested. Somehow, I think that the fact that she could be Shalash is too obvious and only half of the assumption in this case, hence why Brandon has been very cryptic (NO CANONIZING!) on this WOB. (listen to the voice part) What if it's both her Heralds madness AND Nightwatcher's boon at the same time? Brave and Obedient are soldier attributes and her actual Herald madness could've completely averted her from that path of her life. Notice how she also destroy's ALL Herald depictions? She's not only scratching Shalash's eyes out, it's about She is clearly moving against her obedience to the union of Heralds at this point. So going back to the topic of motive from Chana's part, if Shalash and Taln had a very close relationship and Chana was jealous of that, she could've sought Nightwatcher's boon to take her place in Taln's eyes. That's why she is described as extremely beautiful by Baxil and why Taln recognizes her in that momentary lucidity of his. And maybe she did this just to make Taln hate Shalash. ...have her revenge? Also notice this part: We see a difference of how she is referring to Jezrien in her thought and to what she calls him out loud. She doesn't recognize him as father when she thinks of him, but as Jezrien, but she voices him as father staying true to the disguise. Personally, I don't think of my parent's by their name, they are mom and dad to me, especially in my thoughts. This is exactly the same trail of thought I had 2 posts above. It makes sense once you think of Ash as Chana though.

I have no problem with that. Although it worries me that we dismiss one WoB due to differing opinions but we take another for granted and use it a counter argument to theories that people come up with. WoBs aren't verified truths and their meaning can be misleading, so maybe we should start treating them as hints and not facts. Especially since we will have more than 10 years of WoBs. When people use WoBs to come up with theories, they are just that. Theories. Nobody says they are facts. But they can only be proved or disapproved by facts, meaning in book text. Providing a single WoB as factual counter argument that cancels the initial logic (see Proving Invalidity: The Counterexample Method as an indication to what I mean), doesn't work in this case, because WoBs are losing their credibility, especially when they get paraphrased a lot as well. (Providing multiple WoBs though, yeah I can see it a lot more plausible) There is no point in stiffling theoretical creativity in a forum. It's a discussion. If you need to access facts only, just use the coppermind. That's my two cents.

The WOB is talking about a current Dustbringer, not a future one, because the question was on what orders we have already seen. As in a person who is currently a Dustbringer (back in WoR) will eventually be a POV character in the future. As in, this Dustbringer hasn't been a POV character yet? No, they haven't been a POV character. (BTW, I'm assuming we are both excluding Baxil as Ash's POV) "But it depends' Now 'it' here could either mean: (a) do you consider that this person had a POV so far? (b) do you consider that this person is a Dustbringer? Since he says "if you count the Heralds as members of their order" it can only be interpreted as (b). So he is saying here "depending whether or not you consider Heralds as members of their order this person can be considered as a Dustbringer" And then he is saying that you are supposed to consider Heralds as heads of their own Order I do not disagree with this, but currently she is not a Dustbringer.

Because according to what you are saying, she isn't a Dustbringer not even in OB and she is Shalash. It's my theory that says she is Chana and I am considering her a herald of her own order just like the WOB suggests

I'm not defending the theory anymore since I found that 'Ash' reddit comment of his. Sorry, I thought I was clear on that a page back. I was just mentioning what made me believe this whole thing. Edit: If you said this the way you meant to say it, you should've said 'we still haven't seen a Dustbringer's POV yet' So now I'm completely confused on where you are getting with it.

No, I don't think you got my point. He clearly states that you should count Heralds in their own Order.

I think I got a completely different interpretation to what was said then. A Dustbringer is eventually a POV, not a POV is eventually a Dustbringer. Then he clarifies that you should count the Heralds as members of their own order. So if you are missing the Dustbringer who will eventually be a POV and you are supposed to count Heralds of their own order, it meant that Chana is in the POVs.

I feel I'm spamming this now without reason but I found of the WOB that completely threw me off on a tangent when I initially came up with the theory. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/80-shadows-of-self-london-uk-signing/#e5318

I just added the bit from the book from when Kaladin (I did say Elhokar before, my mistake) saw it in my previous post. I'll try to find this reference you speak of in TF. Edit:

Yeah, same goes for that creepy drawing with the nine-headed horse right? That was in Kholinar, when Elhokar found Gav but Shallan drew it unconsciously, many days earlier when she was still in Urithuru . Could it be done through Cryptics maybe? Like if they are interconnected cognitively somehow and what they see travels into this "far sight"? I'm just being creative here Edit: Maybe that's how Wit knew where to find that little Cryptic too

Another strange thing about Baxil's chapter is the detailed explanation of what Nightwatcher does in parallel to the mistress destroying art. If the theory was still in effect, maybe that was a nod to how the mistress ended up being extremely beautiful? I don't know. Maybe I'm still grasping at straws here Edit: Maybe that's why Taln recognizes her too.

That's cool! And why does she sketch her?

Thank you for making the effort to reach understanding and middle ground with me. It's obvious you invest time in your posts to actually find the proof that supports your argument. And I honestly appreciate your effort here, especially because I know it's hard to do that for a complete newbie, obviously a little crazy, stranger who is on the other side of the argument. And you are completely civil about it. I'm still not sure we are on the same page here (Sorry) but I think you mean that Ash's book will focus on her flashback story and on the Dustbringer order at the same time, without necessarily making her of that Order. Am I correct? The Jezrien's daughter entry is pre-WoR, meaning that Baxil(and his mistress) didn't technically "exist" to be linked to yet. Kinda hard to link something to a book character when that book isn't out yet. That is a good point and I've searched and found this which I know you will all find it as proof against this theory. Probably my fault because I think I didn't clarify from the beginning of my posts and I also see a lot of people are still confused on what I claimed with this theory, so in order to have this misunderstanding out the way completely, let me explain what I mean. The character Ash we see in the book, the one that Taln 'recognizes', is Baxil's Mistress and it's the same one that destroys art. But it is not Shalash. Shalash is indeed daughter of Jezrien, that scratches out her eyes in the DR and sometimes called Ash, especially for cursing 'Ash's eyes' etc. But I am probably wrong here, I admit. I just thought it would be an interesting twist. The current consensus clearly isn't used to having more than two options, and we have nearly a dozen at this point. Her becoming a Dustbringer is but 1 of them(and not the one I support). Okay, completely ignoring the theory here and Ash is indeed Shalash, I feel that coming up with 'she will join the Dustbringer order' is just as hypothetical, since the only hint we have towards that happening is "the POV books don't add up". I am not against hypothetical theories though and I'm open to discuss them as well. This rattle is believed to refer to the Herald Shalash, the daughter of the Herald Jezrien, Herald of Kings and patron of the Order of Windrunners.[22] Shalash is also Baxil's mistress who destroys art, including depictions of a specific Herald, believed to be those of Shalash herself. A lot of the Death Rattles are still things that we haven't seen yet. Is there a proof that this DR should've happened by now, as in, is there an order in timing of them that I'm not aware of? If not, maybe it is something that remains to be seen. Something very tragic obviously. Also notice how 'the woman sits' ? Why is this even mentioned in the first place? Edit: to clarify what my initial intention was I... don't see it. What impact is there to be had in "Ash" is not Shalash? So far, it seems like it'd be a plot twist for the sake of having a plot twist, and we both know Brandon is a better writer than that. If he's doing this, he'd have a reason, and so far, I don't see one, or even hints of one. I meant to say that he could purposefully mislead us into thinking that Ash(Baxil's Mistress) is the same as Shalash only to make the revelation that someone else is actually Shalash in order to make that more impact-ful.