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What I said about the oil is one pet theory of mine, and yes I think that every Unmade corresponds to one of the Essences. (some of them I've roughly placed on that table) Now what the Unmade were before becoming un-made.. ? No idea. Recently I've been thinking Soulcasting paid a role in it, since Kaza's chapter, maybe even the Sibling, if Urithiru's purpose was a giant Soulcaster. But its pure tinfoil, electrum foil even.

I think she's gone into the oil. Way of Kings, chapter 19 Starfalls; it's the vision chapter Dalinar has of the Midnight mother. Both in this chapter and in the Urithiru chapters in OB we see the presence of oil, because people couldn't use spheres as a source of light. Add that to the fact that the Re-shephir takes the form of 'black tarry substance' I'd say she's strongly associated with 7th Essence - Tallow. (from the ten essences reference)

The Nahel bond gives the Radiant the surges but Syl said that it takes back something as well. I've got a feeling that spren 'steal' the character traits that make them sentient from the Radiant they are bonded to. So whatever was ripped out of Maya when her first bond was broken, that part was something unique of that Radiant person. Tbh, I'm not even sure if it's a nahel bond forming. Maybe it's something else.

Maybe I should've used 'tides' instead of 'tidal waves' in my original post, something got lost in translation I guess. This is one thread that I didn't read before ( and the other important one is linked in there). I've only started going through that but just based on the fact that the moons have an elliptical orbit and the fact that they are 'much much' closer than our Moon (as Peter said) it seems to me that their impact could surely be felt in tidal strength. More so if there is a direct effect on spren (like all the other phenomena fire/rain do to them) and even more so if Shademar landscape gets affected by the tides. Edit: Following the lead from the thread, from various observations, it seems that the moons have an elliptical orbit, with their periapsis happening at a specific hour every night. Also, Cusicesh appears at exactly seven forty-six in the morning every day, in Kasitor Bay in Iri, looking towards the Origin. After going back and reading that chapter Axies says that the locals even use the sighting to set up their clocks correctly. If we assume that Axies is using a 10 hour clock, where sunrise and sunset happen at 5, and noon/midnight at 0/10, if Axies was considering timezones (which I would expect him to), this means that 7:46 is his measuring of the local time (CRT-2 = central Rosharan time minus 2 hours) and not that of the locals. (isn't it weird to reset your clock at 7:46? probably the locals are setting their clocks to 10 even if it's morning for them because they are all using the same centralised time all over the Continent) If we assume (from the longitude lines on the Coppermind map of Iri) that Kasitor is on a +2 timezone, it would mean that it would be 9:46 at the center of the Continent (and Urithiru right?), which is exactly 4 minutes before noon. The phenomenon lasts for about 10 minutes so it means that Cusiech is gone by 8:05 local time (CRT-2), 10:05 CRT (central rosharan time). So, what's happening on the dark side of Roshar at this moment? It's midnight, of course, we are in the middle of the ocean and I'm assuming that Nomon is at his apoapsis, the furthest away from Roshar. Since he is the middle and the largest moon, now probably looks the same size as the other two, Salas on the east and Mishim on the west. (it's just that they are all moving a lot slower on this side of the planet when you are looking at the night sky because their elliptical orbit is longer) Now think of tidal forces, dynamics in Physics, even if three separate forces are minuscule to cause a severe tide, their combination at this hour of the day would cause a force counter to Roshar's gravitational pull. Normally this would create a high tide on the dark side, meaning a low tide on the Continent, as the sea level would drop considerably. So, going into complete theory now, either Cusiech is what's canceling the tide, or whatever is canceling the tide makes Cusiech appear on Iri. There are gravityspren on Roshar, recorded by Zen-daughter-Vath (WoR-ch3), so maybe whatever gravitational force happens at the center on the dark side of Roshar at noon, (a huge whirlpool maybe?), has such a great gravitational pull that attracts Cusiech on the other side of the planet. Thoughts?

Thank you for this, I went back and re-read the whole story with Wandersail which I've clearly completely forgotten. It also brought a new question. Would a huge whirlpool in the Physical Realm appear as a huge mountain in Shadesmar? (or could a tidal wave appear as a huge wall?) What an interesting thought, that would be epic if it turns out true! I personally think that the third Sibling had something to do with stone. (" For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind " Nightwatcher - Sibling - Stormfather) but I have no serious arguments for it really. Yes, I know that based on real-life examples it doesn't necessarily have to be like this but Roshar is a fictional world there could be a fictional parameter added to the hurricane phenomenon. Also, based on Eila Stele, the Highstorms have changed since the Voidbringers(humans) arrived on Roshar. I'd thought that it could possibly be from the changes they brought to the spren, and since they live in Shadesmar, that the Cognitive Realm might as well played a role into it. Do we know that this phenomenon applies between Physical and Cognitive Realm or it that a guess? Phobos and Deimos, however small they are they still cause tidal forces on Mars.

So the Highstorm dies down the further it progresses through the land of Roshar right? Could this be linked to the fact that on the Shadesmar side it's part of the sea and spren can't easily traverse it? Also, if the moons are causing tidal waves in the oceans of the Physical Realm, would that cause land changes on the Cognitive side? Thoughts? Please share any links to similar or relevant threads

I love to hate Moash. He is just a tragic man that had nothing and that lost even the little important people he had left. Unlucky in life and dark-eyes, he couldn't find any way forward in life but at the same time, he blamed the ruling class and wanted revenge. What I find interesting with Moash is that he used to be on equal grounds with Kaladin, they practically started from the same point, they shared the dark-eyes unfair fate of being reduced to the lowest point in society, bridgemen, fodder in a war. Imagine if Kaladin kept on hating light eyes, he could've been that guy's partner or maybe be even him. Where Moash completely lost me is after he got his revenge. I cried my eyes out for Elhokar, but I was hoping at least Moash would move on. But that's not how it goes when you indulge in such a vast amount of passionate revenge. It's a vicious cycle that keeps on feeding. Consumed by it he is practically now the personification of hate, and of course, he deserves to die.

I wonder what Sanderson would think about that. Not much of a compliment really.

Case in point about the glorification here. You think that Adolin should be praised for 'being willing to train Shallan' but you never stopped to consider if Shallan wanted to be trained in the first place. Did he even ask? She clearly wasn't ready, if you actually paid attention to her POVs, because of the trauma Pattern-blade brought to her since, you know, she killed her mother with it. But of course, you only see that Radiant's creation was because she couldn't help but being all 'lovey-dovey' for Adolin being so physically close to her. Case in point again about the glorification here, you only see Adolin and none of Shallan's issue. We are clearly reading two different characters, maybe even books. First of all, I don't remember Palona reading any books, I think you are remembering that ardent in the interlude. Either way, just because one woman reads romance books it doesn't mean that all women do and maybe you should be a little more careful with that generalization on a public forum where female readers participate. On the contrary, Shallan wasn't like that, from Way of Kings: Chapter 8:

Normally I would've agreed with this, but after the Shadolin I'm very skeptical. Personally, I think that a Kaladin -Jasnah relationship needs a tremendous amount of work to become convincing, but maybe Sanderson would go ahead with it anyway. I can certainly recognize the supporting arguments (and I can add one as well: Elhokar was Jasnah's brother and if she can forgive Kaladin for not saving him, Kaladin might find the strength to forgive himself for Tien) but I think that this outcome is both too predictable but at the same time needs too much work to turn out convincing. Predictable because once we start getting scenes between them, it's going to be too obvious we are being led down this path (not to mention it's going to be a Shalladin repeat) and needs too much work because I find Jasnah and Kaladin on completely different positions on the moral spectrum. For both characters, morality is a very strong attribute of what defines them in Stromlight. Changing it would basically change the definition of who they are. Maybe it's my personal preference that I want them both to stay how they are because I find it so much more interesting for those two moral points to interact with each other, to clash and to co-exist. (just like how Cultivaiton and Honor would probably have done as the Shards took over the people they once were) Maybe they can come to terms with each other's moral compass, maybe they can become very good friends as well, partners even but I cannot see either one of the two 'falling in love' with the other when they are so fundamentally different on this matter. 'Falling in love' is a more seamless, natural, process in my mind I guess. Now about the argument of a political marriage, I think that Jasnah would oppose the idea of marriage unless it gave her a strategical advantage. So, we could be led into political instability, since the end of Roshar is imminent and the Radiants will be trying to 'unite' all the people (humans and Listeners alike) into one power against Odium. And maybe Kaladin's 'chaotic good' nature could help bring the dark-eyes and the Listeners to Jasnah's side, but this whole scenario needs a lot of work to be established. Either way, wouldn't Kaladin oppose the idea of marrying because of 'political reasons'? I somehow cannot see Hesina raising him like that, or even Syl accepting this outcome. Maybe he'll completely give up on marriage 'by love' because he becomes so hopeless, but this is not where we currently are right now in the narrative. In conclusion, yes, it could happen, the plot seeds are certainly there, but it still needs a lot of work to get there I think. I'm willing to see both ways.

Of course, I would like for all the baddies to die (Moash/ Nale/ Odium) because the point of an ideal ending is the reader's redemption; the good to prevail, the evil to be vanquished. But the interesting part is of the question is 'who is likely to die?'. So, regardless of personal preference, my answer would be Dalinar, because 1. he is way too powerful with Honor's Perpendicularity at this point, 2. he is Odium's first target and 3. there is the well-used trope of 'the older generation dies for the young ones to take up their place' (Add that to the fact that there is an in-book decade gap between book 5 and book 6 planned, if there is one person that's going to be killed by age math before the second pentalogy, that's Dalinar)

The question is how bad can someone really be when they even warn you of their own actions?

A theory would be that the proto-radiant candidacy is like a small Connection that gets larger as the KR forms a nahel bond and progresses through their Ideals. The fact that Kaladin has a natural aptitude in fighting with a spear is an indication of that small Connection even as a kid. Connection transcends time so the past, the present and the future are interconnected. Maybe there is a vague sense of reincarnation or destiny that affects young Kaladin from either the past or the future.

Let me rephrase what I'm trying to say here. Try and think along the lines that the Oathpact could bind Odium to the Greater Rosharan System, and because of his involvement in this he became invested. (maybe it was done to fight off some other kind of force initially not knowing that Odium was an enemy) Then (maybe after realising his intentions were to destroy them) Honor and Cultivaiton sealed him on Braize. But in order to seal his inversted powes, meaning the Fused, the Heralds needed to give leave Roshar permanently and seal both the Fused and themselves in Damnation. Also, have in mind that the Stormfather doesn't necesarily reveal the whole truth mostly because he doesn't even remember himself. So, do we have definitive proof that the Oathpact was only between Honor and the Heralds?

Sorry for bumping an old thread. But what if it's the Oathpact itself that binds Odium to Roshar. Maybe he was involved in the oath?

I love this question. It's one of those things we take for granted but never ask why.

Capture? You mean bind him into a gem? I think that ability is limited to Bondsmiths only...

The best choice for Odium to place against Dalinar is Adolin. It's a checkmate. We've only got a glimpse of their father/son relationship getting weakened, with Adolin refusing to take the throne (even temporarily) and accepting he isn't what he father wants him to be (Sadea's murder) and of course there is, the giant elephant in the room, Evi's death revelation.

As Wit said "Be wary of anyone who claims to be able to see the future". I think certainly Moelach falls under this category. They could all be breadcrumbs to lead Taravangian into false conclusions and I think we should interpret them that way.

I was thinking that maybe a Willshaper would be able to do it (assuming they can shape metals at will which is pure hypothesis at this point) but then I thought, surgebinding probably wouldn't work on Aluminum anyway.

I was very reluctant to post on this thread and this is exactly the reason. This is like saying "People hate Adolin because they were shipping Shallan and Kaladin" but I feel that this attitude is kind of disrespectful towards the minorities of this argument. It may not be intentional, so I'll try to explain myself here and hopefully find understanding on the other side. I believe that the Shallan-Adolin relationship is set up, if not to fail, to at least have a lot of turbulence in the next book. But this is not what made me believe that Adolin is a hateful character. This is not only an exaggeration, but also the realization and the conclusion are switched around. And this makes others doubt the credibility of my opinion. So let me clear this up, in case it isn't: I believe that Adolin isn't as nice as people think he is, that's why I think the relationship is set up to have a lot of turbulence, and this was my opinion from the moment I finished OB until now. I do not hate Adolin, but I can't say I like him yet either. I'm still expecting to see something more interesting about him at this point, that's why I consider myself neutral in this argument. I'll be perfectly honest and tell you that I had no issue with Adolin when I finished OB because I considered him a grey character. He's had good moments and he's had somewhat-evil moments and that made him interesting to me. He appears like a stable character, clear minded and his actions indicate him as well intended and good-natured, but that's only limited to what he has let out on the outside. The fact that we didn't have any of his internal thoughts, his aspirations and fears, (or whatever we got was neither perfectly good nor evil), I'm not sure what his internal struggle is. I always thought that his difficult childhood and militaristic upbringing should've affected him a lot more than what's been expressed so far in the books, so I've always been waiting for him to show his "true colors" at some point, whatever those may be. My previous experience with literature has led me to think that there was an underlying duality, that we haven't seen yet, and my interest to him revolves around the outcome of that assumption. Admittedly, I've never been on the Shard before OB so when I saw the majority of people loving Adolin's character, not for that duality, but for the fact that he is a straight good character that baffled me and it still does. Yes, if he was a real person I would love him too, but this is a fictional character, he'd make a better story to me if he had a path full of mistakes and grey choices. So, I guess I agree with @BraidedRose on this one:

Also, another interpretation to that could be that he noticed she was bleeding from one personality to the next and back, from Veil to Radiant to Shallan, and realizing that her personality/crazy issues were a lot deeper than what he thought initially, he tried to flee the betrothal. There is also the fact that Veil dismissed him to get her a palanquin, it could be that his pride got hurt at that moment and that's why he bitterly said it's better to let Kaladin have her instead. Because, I've seen a lot of people arguing that he 'stepped down' but that phrase, "I'll let him have you", doesn't sound as a person taking a step back, but a person dumping another. Yeah, you can interpret what happened one way or another or another, but either way it's an interpretation. You just choose to believe one instead of the other.

Yeah, but Adolin wasn't even aware of that, he actually ignored her when she said "But..." to him because he was too self absorbed into what he wanted to do. He just did what he wanted. We are not arguing what's best for Shallan, we are arguing if Adolin is paying enough attention to know Shallan and her needs, to know what's going on with her. Which he clearly isn't in this scene. This is clearly not a balanced relationship. Shallan goes over the top to please Adolin because she thinks that's what he deserves. She crafted for him the perfect bride, a woman that looked and acted as befitted Adolin Kholin, even if that isn't her. This is not a right balance and not two people walking their path in life together, it's Shallan running behind Adolin's whims. Only Shallan is making the effort here and the effort is so great on her part, that causes her harm.

I'm going to disagree. When learning to play any sport in my life, we learned the sport and the physical conditioning was on the side. Never a pre-requisite. It just doesn't happen that way. You are right that physical conditioning could be done in parallel to the technique training for Shallan, we just didn't see any of that in the book. And you have a point that they do not always teach physical conditioning when they teach sports, probably because normal people never really sport for championships but we sport or fun. It's not usually a life-and-death need, so we don't take it as seriously either. I still think that sword fighting needs at least the physical strength to be able to lift the sword and wave it around at least long enough for a fight (even if you have auto healing abilities), and that physical strength can only be achieved with muscle building routine exercises. We can agree to disagree if you like and also add that IRL examples might not apply in Radiant training right? Either way, the training method isn't necessarily the issue here. The general argument is that Adolin, as a betrothed to a woman he supposedly loves, needed to be more perceptive about what she needed instead of what he wanted to be didactic about. Love is about putting the other person's needs above your own, right? So maybe instead we should be having an argument if Adolin actually cares about Shallan's needs at this point.

Actually, in real life sports that's exactly what you do. For example, professional weightlifters are usually trained years into gymnastics first, because proper stance needs to be an innate ability in order to learn the proper lifting techniques. But we are digressing here, IRL examples don't apply in our case, because I'm not necessarily arguing "what the proper process in learning swordsmanship is" (which I think we both agree isn't what happened here) but that Adolin, as a betrothed to a woman he supposedly loves, needed to be more perceptive about what she needed instead of what he wanted to be didactic about. I'm not pretending anything. I'm saying out right that no, it wasn't the right thing to do with Shallan at that moment, because of the emotional trauma she has in using Pattern as a sword, but it's understandable because Adolin doesn't have any clue what is going on with Shallan, he just assumes he does. You mean stealth checks? Well, I firstly brought out the Wizard example in order to explain the reason of weapon proficiency, but maybe it's not that apparent to a non DnD player. I wouldn't call Shallan a rogue, she doesn't fit, she doesn't do anything stealthy and certainly not any sneak attacking, so I don't see the logic of thinking a rogue class matches. On the contrary there is a perfect match for Lightweavers in the Wizard's Illusionist. Let's agree to disagree on this one. I still think it's a lot harder to defend someone for being harmed than just killing a threat that's trying to kill just you.