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Glad you like it! ( check my signature links, they actually kind of connect, sort of) What I would add/alter to those links would be that maybe Cusiech is somehow 'pulling' water on the other side of Roshar, everyday at midday, trying to balance out the three moons' gravitational pull. In the meantime, water is somehow being funneled through Urithiru (something like how Purelake drains in times of Highstorm) which would normally charge up the gemstone pillars. But with the Midnight's Mother presence there, clogging up the underground waterways, Urithiru stays inoperational.

Um, haha, in danger of sounding complete cuckoo here, what if the Sibling can inhabit water and Re-shepir can inhabit oil? And Re-shepir is actually in Urithiru in order to not let water in? (oil and water don't mix)

I didn't mean that it's a bad thing to compare characters, just not the topic of this thread. Go ahead and open a new one and I'll gladly join.

I think it's a bad comparison that doesn't do justice to either series. They cover different aspects of 'history'. A Song Of Ice And Fire is mostly about kingdoms and generations of intrigue, usurping, dueling and assassinating each other. Not much magic in there or natural history, but still it has such great detail in the aspects of what it includes that it's good in its own way. Maybe more 'realistic' too, if that is the right word to use. Sanderson's Cosmere (because all of the involved books are interwoven together and maybe you shouldn't disregard that easily) expand over millennia. And they may not be as detailed when they come to kingdoms and generations of rulers (which I think is too early to judge anyway) but it has depth in the magic system and natural history where A Song Of Ice And Fire doesn't. Don't forget that we have so many races on Roshar, some coming from other planets, some of them descendants from Aimians, some of them native Listeners, who in turn are descendants of Dawnsingers... There is a lot there we haven't seen yet. That said, I think the notion of 'winners write history' is very strong in Alethi society and Hierocracy 'deleting' bits that didn't match their narrative has played a big role in what history we are exposed to, as we follow the main characters. It's so interesting isn't it?

This is not an easy task! It's very hard to pick favourites, but I guess some bits resonate stronger when they get personal. And what feels personal is completely subjective. I like the strong emotions, not necessarily good emotions. So let me see what I can remember (not in any particular order) : Kaladin's at the edge of the chasms and despair, Stormfather's appearances in the highstorm, the Tower, Shallan killing Lin, Shallan waking up after Wind's Pleasure sunk, Elhokar dying, Evi and Rathalas burning, Dalinar becoming Unity and the Girl who Stood Up. Edit: Also Dalinar's angst for Navani xD

Comparing Adolin to the main characters shouldn't be this thread's topic. But since you bring it up, I think main characters are supposed to teach us about trying to be stronger that who we are. They might seem 'too much' compared to Adolin, because he's there to bridge the gap between us, the readers, and them, the protagonists. So we might see him taking their path in future books and take us with him. But not taking responsibility isn't part of that path but a step back in my opinion, it's part of the lesson. The end is near, their loved ones are in danger, whatever they do they have to do it as soon as possible. This is no time for avoiding responsibility but putting whatever they got in the fight and if they manage to save them nothing else matters. Taking responsibility, placing that burden on themselves even if they aren't sure they can lift it or if it will crush them underneath (like a bridge), is the point of the books. I am not sure if Adolin will get there, I certainly don't think he is currently there, but taking responsibility is a part of him that needs to be addressed in order for him to go down that path.

She had a vision about him emerging on the shore and another with Baxil's mistress ruining some statue. If one of the two is actually true, why wouldn't the other be as well?

I don't think you should dismiss Ialai so easily, as she is involved with Mraize after all. Ruthar seemed to easily take her side against Jasnah, yes granted mostly because he disapproves of Jasnah's 'pagan' beliefs (I wonder if he'll accept her as Queen), but I do think these small details in OB could be foreshadowing turmoil in political alliances.

A post on the concurrent thread "Why I think Sadeas death was right." (which btw might be the right thread to discuss this) reminded me of this WoB: I think this points out that political power dictates who is right or wrong in Alethi society. Being a warlike nation, as they are, they follow a general 'winners write history' cultural mentality. To support @agrabes argument, Wit wouldn't have as much political power as Sadeas did, so how Wit's assassination would be taken by Alethi society is beside the point here. So I think that Alethi society, in general, might not oppose Dalinar's support for Adolin, despite murdering/assassinating Sadeas, but if a schism was to happen between Ialai and the Kholins, the houses supporting Sadeas would probably side against Adolin.

Like a mad scientist! I love it! And completely tin foil too!

I'm not dismissing the 'trope' but I don't think that Adolin and Shallan's relationship has reached the point where we can say, irrefutably, that he is doing it 'out of love'. Their relationship isn't mature enough, it hasn't gone through the hardship of a serious relationship, to prove this. On the contrary, the fact that he is saying so easily 'I'll let him have you' (and right after he's seen her other faces) could be interpreted as a last attempt of escape. I'm not saying everyone should interpret it that way, but in the way it was written, a lot of people could and I believe that was intentionally done from Sanderson's part.

I agree that this proves, that Alethi society would turn a blind eye to how Adolin killed Sadeas. (Not necessarily Honor himself tho) What I think wasn't obvious in my previous posts, is that me personally, raised in a modern society's values, would not accept it, and as we, the readership, belong in this reality, I don't think we are supposed to accept it that lightly either. Again, this is my personal opinion. Nobody has to agree with me.

I agree 100%! To both your posts! (even if you shouldn't double post!)

I have wondered about the same thing for months and I think I have a theory… Adolin wasn’t supposed to be this big of a character, but a POV to reveal others. We weren’t exposed to his inner thoughts, fears or desires or values, he didn’t have an introductory chapter. So how we interpret him, where the huge difference derives from, depends heavily on how we interpret his first scenes. And the first time we see Adolin outside his family’s presence, which seems the only important thing to him, was the prostitute scene. (again in order for Kaladin to have a first glimpse of the Kholin Code but that’s beside the point) The point of that scene was ‘lighteyes might not be as bad as Kaladin thinks’ but for a lot of other people it was also ‘Adolin seems like a nice dude’. But because we weren’t’ exposed to Adolin’s inner thoughts during that exchange to some people it had one extra meaning of ‘the truth is somewhere in between’. And from there on all interactions about Adolin had that added suspicion in them, that only grew the more scenes we got of him without exposing his inner thoughts. In a way, we actually do react the same. We interpret a scaffolding of a character trying to ‘fill in’ the missing parts with our assumptions. Because that’s what Adolin is, just a scaffolding to insert whatever you want in there. For you, it’s an insecure man that loves a woman. For me, it’s an overindulgent one that goes with the flow. Can you see what’s being revealed here? Not Adolin ofc, but our own assumptions of what he is, maybe even parts of our own self. Wanting someone to just be happy denotes affection yes, not attraction. We want our friends and our siblings to be happy but we don’t want the people we marry to ‘just be happy’. We want, we demand, to be that happiness. That’s why we marry them, to make them ‘ours’ and us 'theirs', to restrict them into being ‘ours’ being responsible for their happiness. And we give up ourselves for them too. There is a meaning of 'selfishness' as you describe it there, but also a meaning of giving up our selves as well. Adolin never showed he is in love with Shallan. He never once demanded her love or attention. We never got an indication that he was giving something up for her either. I don’t see Adolin as insecure. At all. On the contrary, he seems very confident, cheeky even. She tells Shallan not to feel sorry for him but that’s not about ‘feeling insecure about who he is’, that’s for ‘not hurting his feelings for breaking the betrothal’ (how she would interpret him in that conversation, but not how he interprets himself) But I’ll agree that he did notice Shallan’s behavior ‘over the course of OB’ He didn’t pick another moment to break off the betrothal, he wasn’t even mad when he noticed Shallan ‘almost leering’ at Kaladin on Honor’s Path. He didn’t confront her then and there. He didn’t try to break the betrothal any sooner. But the point isn’t what he didn’t do, the point is what he did when he did it. He tried to break that betrothal right after he saw her ‘bleeding from Shallan to Veil to Radiant and back’. Not before the battle in Shadesmar, not later after the Battle of TC when they were all safely home, but right after he saw her losing control of those ‘other people’ and seeing who she is. (even Shallan has that exact fear, it’s in there, in-book) He just tried to run away from her madness, the poor man. And his reluctance to show affection towards her (it’s always she that grabs him always) shows reluctance to be committed to her. Remember they haven’t been together that long, to have reached that point of complacency in their relationship that they ‘just want each other to be happy’. Breaking it off so easily, so early, is only possible for people who aren’t much involved in the first place. Where does he ever say that he wants to marry her? Or that loves her? Don’t you think that would be important for a writer to include if he wants to convince us of it? Yes, people know that Dalinar was supposed to take the throne, not Adolin.

Then I find your original post misleading to what your actual position is. But you know what, it doesn't matter. You are allowed to change your mind. I still think an unarmed man is at a disadvantage to a tired one with a dagger. That's why if Sadeas killed Adolin while unarmed it would've actually been in self-defense. No, that's what nepotism is. I'm just saying my opinion on this, you don't have to agree.

Adolin had a dagger. Sadeas didn't have one. This wasn't a battle of equal power. So I guess you've changed your mind to your original post then. Yes of course, but we are talking about establishing a kingdom here, we need to establish what it means nationally, otherwise it's only chaos.

I agree. Sadeas deserved death. He had a hand in the burning of Rathalas (maybe even more than the Kholins) and the use of bridgemen as human shields to make passage, fodder essentially, just to get the upper hand in a war of attrition was disgusting. He obviously didn’t care about human lives and be probably wanted to usurp the Kholins. But I disagree with the way that he died. He should’ve had a way to defend himself. Maybe if he had a chance, in a court of law, we could’ve found out that there is misinformation in the things we are accusing him. And if a court of law doesn’t exist, he should’ve at least had a weapon in hand to thwart off someone trying to kill him. This wasn’t even done in a time of war, where he would normally expect assassins to come at him, he wouldn’t leave himself unprotected like that if it was. And I especially disagree with the assassination by a member of the ruling family. It turns monarchy into tyranny. When the Kholins are the ruling family and they want to establish or keep a certain order over Alethkar, their actions should be an example of what they want the rest of the kingdom to uphold, not chaotic. Killing off any opposition when they do not even have a chance to defend themselves, proves that this is not a kingdom of order, but a kingdom of fear. The end does not justify the means; journey before destination.

He didn't have it in hand tho. Both of them could've taken a few seconds to summon their blades and have a showdown right then and there, but that's not what happened.

Np and thank you. Please don't worry about it. I still think that Sadeas should’ve had some way to defend himself. Even executions are preceded of a trial. If tribunal trials aren’t an Alethi thing, he at least had a right to a duel or a fair fight. Killing an unarmed man surely isn’t ‘in self-defence’. Deserving it or not, killing him while unarmed without a trial, is unlawful, dishonorable and unethical. Even if Dalinar's code isn't taken into consideration. That’s my take of it.

@Toaster Retribution@Mage of Lirigon Don't tell me what to like please, I don't read fantasy for the 'plain rice' characters. If I wanted to read that I'd pick another genre or hobby. So, as moderators said above accept that other people disagree with you. As for Sadeas' murder, I've said it before and I'll say it again. He was unarmed, it wasn't self-defense. Adolin shoved a knife through his father's former ally over exchanged heated words. If you consider that self-defense I'm glad I'm having this conversation online with you. oh and welcome @Llayne I like the way you express yourself even if I do not agree with you. It's so straight forward. It feels like we've met before in the past.

If I wanted real people I wouldn't be reading fantasy books

Adolin is like being served plain rice after having steak, chicken curry and sushi for three nights in a row. It just leaves you disappointed. Certainly, for some people, it could be a nice break from overindulgence, but personally, I'd prefer to skip dinner than just have plain rice. So yeah, I'd prefer if he didn't exist as a character if his path is just 'so simple it works' especially after all the juxtapositions to Kaladin in WoR that ended up moot.

@Scion of the Mists I thought I referred to that point in my previous post. The WoB says that the Heralds discovered that not all of them have to leave but that didn't break the Oathpact despite what they may think. So I think Sanderson meant to imply that is how the Heralds perceive it, not necessarily what is actually happening. But yes, anything is possible, either interpretation. I just wanted to put out there what my theory currently is, in case it sparked any interest to anyone. You can continue the discussion thread with its original topic, I didn't mean to highjack here.

What I found strange with that merchant was that he let Shallan keep the necklace. Why would anyone do that if it was as valuable as he said it was? So I think this points that this merchant may not be as 'clueless' as he wanted to appear. Maybe that necklace was indeed made of aluminum, this merchant was able to recognize it, but what he said about 'Soulcasting made it' was a lie to hide the fact of how he knew that? I mean, come on, Lin giving Shallan that necklace trying to keep spren away or make even her 'undetectable' to protect her would make sense after she killed her mother with Pattern. And it would make even more sense if he was a Surgebinder, or at least a very 'aware' Soulcaster (the poison couldn't kill him). It doesn't necessarily mean he Soulcasted that necklace, he could've got it from Mraize or any other Ghostblood.

From the WoB you linked and the Stormfather’s words, the Heralds shouldn’t have lingered when Taln died, they should’ve fought whatever forces were on Roshar and then go back to Braize. ( In my theory, I think they were supposed to go back and seal the Unmade.) From Jezrien’s words in the Prologue, Ishar had a plan. I think that plan was to bind whatever free Unmade were left into Gemstones, use the Radiants to defeat leftover forces and maybe even ‘gentle’ the Parshmen. (that could’ve also been a plan that came as a later discovery) We have an indication that Melishi bound Ba-Ado-Mishram at least once ( but Gavilar had multiple Polestomes filled with Voidlight), so I think Ishar’s plan actually succeeded, at least for a while. But what Ishar didn’t calculate was that the floodgates were open. ( Within my theory ‘They could all return’ should refer to the Unmade, who were empowering the Fused. Voidbringers could mean both Fused and Unmade. ) So the Unmade slowly became more and more powerful on Roshar, to the point that he couldn’t bound them into gemstones anymore. He probably targeted the most dangerous ones first, that’s why Nergaoul and Re-shephir might’ve been free to roam. And of course, he didn’t have a backup plan in case Taln broke, which brought the Everstorm and the Regals. Thank you for the WoBs and the effort! I think it’s interesting that Thunderclasts normally shouldn’t exist outside a Desolation but theoretically, they can. Maybe that WoB hints that when a Desolation normally ended (and, in my theory, the Unmade were sealed) Thunderclasts were supposed to die down. Or maybe that WoB indicates that the False Desolation might only be "false" in theory, but not actually. Yes, I think all the flashbacks we have are after Aharietiam (right?). So that means that they are all during or after the False Desolation. The Heralds never went back on Braize to seal the Unmade, they just did a ‘patch up’ work with imprisoning them in gemstones. My personal take is that if Unmade can be freed from Polestones, so should Heralds from magic daggers But if they cannot be freed and each ‘freed’ Unmade is basically a separate ‘instance’ that could mean that Jezrien is indeed perma-perma-perma dead. I think that would mean that they cannot seal the Unmade back on Braize anymore. Even if the Heralds/Radiants somehow manage to defeat them they’ll keep coming back sooner or later because one of the floodgates, corresponding to Jezrien, will remain open. Edit: Sorry to highjack the thread! Yes, of course, it could mean the Oathpact only bound the Fused, I was just proposing a theory.