Bliev

I feel you, completely. I can appreciate your feeling of something "missing" with Adolin--I want *more* as well. And I love that this convo made me think a bit more about why I connect with him--and what is textual and what is just years of those impressions rolling around in the back of my brain. I find myself on this forum to escape from the same--day job, children, etc.--and I have to find the line between analysis that detracts from my enjoyment and that which enhances it. Pre-internet forums, when I was a young girl/woman, I read so much and so voraciously that I never had *anyone* to talk with about my analysis. So I just stayed in the moment, enjoyed it, and moved on. And I kind of miss that sometimes? So I have to switch back and forth to some less mentally taxing reading sometimes to relax that part of my brain and be mindful and present. But that's harder to do when it's Stormlight time. haha

@DeployParachute I have to say that I have really enjoyed this character jaunt with you re: Adolin. It's been really helpful for me to dissect my thoughts on this to read the perspective of someone who has vastly different interpretations of the same on-page experiences than I have. Thank you. @Pathfinder I would love to read that. Maybe Renarin will be the "special envoy" to keep him around Adolin. lol

Oh, yes, I like that possibility as well. Maybe Mraize wants Restares because he knows how that gemstone was made. Maybe that's the secret they want to extract from him? Probably not, but it would be cool.

Great point. Renarin often provides a corrective to Adolin in WOR in particular. I wonder if they've remained as close. It was strange for Adolin to see Renarin as a Radiant in OB. But given what we've learned of Renarin being somewhat ostracized due to his corrupted spren, it seems like he probably still needs some big brother protection as well. I was worried that Adolin might retreat from Renarin due to his own insecurities about being surrounded at all times by remnants of gods.

Yes, I think all the evidence points toward this being an unmade, but I find it strange that someone as smart as Navani wouldn't have thought of that, particularly since she directly refers to the Kings Drop being...well...dropped, in the ocean during the same mental thought session. Why would she have handed it off to a random ardent? Seems very very reckless. But also a very useful plot device for someone t make a mistake like that.

Yes, this plan was...poorly thought out. Maybe they only told Navani that they dropped it in the ocean? Maybe they lied? Storms, I hope they lied. Because otherwise. Yikes. With that said, I can't imagine the thrill being another central player in this battle. There are already other unmade we've yet to see--the Thrill coming back seems "realistic" in real life but not a good plot mover? If that makes sense?

As an aside, to me, this week's chapter adds more evidence to the idea that Adolin is *not* just blithely okay with his father's reflections on his mother, and his character arc toward self-realization seems more clear (as per Navani's POV anyways). Seeing him and Shallan present a united married front to Dalinar was really a great sign that their marriage is strong, and it was nice for me to see Shallan comfort Adolin and relax him in return. We rarely see any other character provide solace to Adolin; usually it's the other way around.

I’m going to ignore your Moash bait. with great effort.lol but, I interpreted this as referring to Syl, and the “bringing to life” referring to either the fact that his bond brought her “to life” or into the physical realm. I thought this was an allusion to (newsletter-related spoiler) But that might be too flowery of language for that basic of a relationship. I just think his journey this book is likely to be more psychological than anything.

In another thread I speculated that the blurb for WOK saying one "will destroy us" was referring to Dalinar, since he was (at least at that time) probably perceived as destined to be Odium's champion (according to future sight) since Odium and Renarin saw it, and Cultivation (whose future sight is really good), saw it as a distinct possibility, though she also foretold other possibilities. So yeah, I bet there is some Fortune involved. Thinking about it more, Brandon *really* focuses on her perfect recall. That is precisely the sort of foreshadowing he's known for. I bet this is definitely something to consider.

OOOOOhh. This is amazing. OK, so theories on Shallan. This seems to suggest, given what we know, that the "imprisoned spren" is in Lasting Integrity. Could Restares be in possession of the perfect gem (like @Schneeente suggests) with a captured unmade--BAM, maybe? This could be how void light came to be in Gavilar's possession. The "knowledge that condemns the people of Roshar" must be related to Odium. Odium condemns the people of Roshar. The Oathpact keeps him bound, sacrificing the lives of Rosharans every Desolation in exchange for the rest of the Cosmere's freedom from Odium, right? Maybe it's actual knowledge of what the Odium did to Honor when he first arrived to set him up for entrapment? I feel like it must be very Big News, but I feel like "condemns all the people of Roshar" must be either (a) what binds Odium to this land, (b) what motivates Odium to want to shatter all of the shards, including Honor and Cultivation, or (c) what destroyed the Tranquiline Halls in the first place and created the initial breach that Odium exploited between the peoples. "Freeing her spirit". Whew. I think this definitely gives credence to the "Formless as unformed identity/small child" theory--it sets Shallan up more as tragic than potentially dangerous, suggesting that she must find her own truth before she can find the knowledge to save Roshar. I agree with @Karger: seems those repressed memories are pretty important. Lends some support to my theory that she was potentially used by the Sons of Honor/Ghostbloods as a child once they realized she had attracted a spren. Maybe she even has some perfectly stored memory of a map, a conversation, etc. that will be illuminating. We keep seeing her memories manifest as perfectly depicted drawings. Surely that will be of importance here?

I think I see the disconnect here. I think we have gotten much more info on Adolin's motivations and inner thoughts than you have. I think this is a wildly simplified view based on your interpretation (so valid, but not more valid than anyone else's). I remember in WOK you saw him rubbing up against societal expectations. Trying to be a good Alethi, a good son, which often meant hiding parts of himself to make his father proud. Fiercely loyal. We saw him as a child in OB getting yelled at and becoming more "perfect" in response. We see his perspective in OB of starting to doubt himself, but shutting that voice off in Shadesmar to focus on his friends. We see his insecurity when he tries to let Shallan go. We see his insecurity again when he turns down the crown and wanting his father to react. Wanting something. You read this as "he gets the girl and no responsibility so he wins". I read this as "insecurity unaddressed" and a potential problem for him. We haven't seen his internal reaction to learning about Evi yet, but we see what Kal sees--that he is thwarting Dalinar's desires. I think you think we're projecting more depth, but I think you're projecting *less* depth. Because the textual evidence is there that there is more going on, if you interpret it that way. It would not be unexpected to get Adolin POVs that show just how much he is pushing down and out because of fear or insecurity or anger. Because we see hints of them throughout the series: We see his anger in WOK when Sadeas is insulting his father. We see his inability to let things go when Renarin seeks to calm him down. We see how he reveres his father. In WOR, chapter 14, we see him talk to Maya and refuse to name her, feeling like she's an extension of the soul. We do not see any other characters treat their (dead) blades with such reverance. We see his insecurities there as well: And the entire Shadesmar scene in OB, like: LIke, I don't read this as "I don't want responsibility," though I can see how someone could read it that way. I read it as deep insecurity born out of a childhood seeking validation from a cold and distant father. And I see this as incredibly strong foreshadowing for Adolin's character arc, and the Maya awakening plot point: Adolin sees her as a friend. Not as a tool. We know that cognitive thoughts matter, intent matters, in the Cosmere. As others have noted, it is surely not "enough", but that's where I see adolin's growth coming into play. He is trying to figure out who he is as a man, as a bit player on a field full of superheroes and fragments of gods. He focuses on helping his wife, his best friend. But who is helping him? You're right we have little insight into his brain. But I could continue posting the evidence ,particularly from OB, that supports my "still waters" idea, which is more than just projection (though I agree, my explanation was rife with such lol). Overall, I think an awakened Maya, in some capacity, fulfills plot points for Adolin and Dalinar (if the theory of his role rings true) and also provides an opportunity for growth for our friend Kal, who spoke so dismissively of her in the bar chapter. It also provides an opportunity for Adolin to see himself differently, to see his path as worthy in and of itself--even as it detours from his father's or Kal's or Shallan's. That's the character arc to me.

Also, when the process began, the Heralds had to feel confident that the humans could continue without them. which is why they trained them. Because while the fused couldn’t be reborn when the locking began; they had to still be killed first. That’s probably why they preferred to go back after a battle where they killed a bunch, so they couldn’t be reborn. If one was killed, then the process began whether they liked it or not...but then the rest of them would have to purposefully return, in theory. Which we know they didn’t.

See, I get you to some degree--that I would love to see Adolin's internal POV more. But you assume because you see him through others' eyes on the page, and they see his life as perfect and easy, that it *is* so. I relate to him not because I, too, am perfect. (el oh el) But rather, because I too have had a seemingly charmed life, and have it all together, and people like me, and I am helpful, nice, etc. So when I feel the inevitable insecurities, trauma, pain, anger, etc., it makes me almost guilty (e.g., How dare I feel this way when I have it so relatively good?). He is loyal. He is in pain because his two best friends (his wife and Kal) are in pain and he can't always help them. His world is in disarray. And you think his consistency means a lack of growth. I think it means a different type of growth. One where you realize the importance of maintaining, and of seeing your place in the world. I don't find him boring at all. I find him fascinating as a character study *because* I know how deep still waters can run...or rather, how much "normal" can hide. ETA: I want to be clear that I'm not expecting to convince anyone! Just to explain that I like him for precisely the opposite reasons that you seem to dislike him; because I see the characterization as fascinating, not boring. The COVID quarantine has made me feel this way even more, as I'm the person who always looks like they have it all together, I'm the "strong" one who checks in on everyone and solves all the problems--checks in on her struggling students, always sees the signs before they do, swoops in, gets them resources. Stays productive on research to not let the team down. Stays positive and happy for my kids and partner and nieces and parents. But that doesn't mean that I *feel* like I have it together. And there just aren't that many of us in fantasy (I feel like its' the broken reluctant hero or the confident hero, but rarely the "normal" dudes or dudettes). People who aren't broken, but who are stretched. People who choose to be positive and optimistic and steady, even when it's hard, because we know that we don't have it as hard as some other people do. Our stories involve growth, it's just less obvious. (and I think it makes it even harder to see when we have so few POVs from him.)

Oh, no, @Pathfinder, I really appreciate you posting those WOBs. I have a hard time keeping up with them all (if they're not in Shardcast haha) and I love the info, even if it means I'm wrong! I totally agree with you on that now, actually. In terms of this, I actually agree re: Dalinar's role in this (the newsletter interlude shored this up for me for sure). I think that how Maya acted in and since Shadesmar *is* unique to their strengthened bond, as well, and that there is some inversion there with how spren fill in broken human spirit webs and how Adolin might (with Dalinar's help), fill in Maya's.

I think both of them have to understand each other. Lirin and Kal are very very similar--rigid, dogmatic, intelligent. They both want to save people. They just have very very different philosophies on how to save and protect. Incompatible philosophies, even. If Kal is going to grow, he has to respect that people can share his desire to protect, but feel differently about his choices. And Lirin has to understand that Kal's choices don't negate his values, they're just a different method to reaching them. And *both* have to recognize that their dogma is essentially rooted in fear and trauma. Lirin is fearful of loss and traumatized by losing his son(s). Kal is also traumatized by the same loss and fearful of more. They just react differently. And that understanding will allow them to grow--both of them.

I agree. I wouldn't be surprised if it weren't something analogous to Syl's choosing Kal over the SF's objections. Maya must choose to risk herself for him (since that's what bonding requires), but in this case, it's not the SF's permission that must be granted, but his powers, to fully heal the damage. I really like the idea of this being the opposite, even, such that spren heal human spirit webs, and must risk themselves to do so by entering into the physical realm; to heal a spren "spirit web", a human must enter into the cognitive realm and risk themselves or the bond not "taking".

@Pathfinder I concede the point on this. I think you're likely right about the oath-breaking. But I don't know how they could have coordinated the plan without the spren knowing. Unless they did know and fought it the whole way. @DeployParachute I love Adolin's genuine niceness. It's such a nice change to have a person who is just...good and whole. Who has had hard things happen and is still mostly okay. I see a lot of folks really annoyed with Adolin and all, but man, I just identify so hard with him. I don't think he'll easily revive Maya, and I agree with Pathfinder that it will take something more than his grit and plucky tenacity to do so, but I am really invested (pun not intended) in their journey together.

Yes, I imagine Teft has a separate role like Skar and Sigzil do. Teft was the first to come and gently kicking Kal to go congratulate the newest Windrunner, and he seemed like he was pretty high up there in terms of chain of command. I'm sure he has his bad days still, they all do, so the only thing I can think of that might be different is that he's opted out of leadership because he doesn't think he's ready for it.

About *10,000 years after the shattering. Yes, I'd say that seems like a *very* interesting nugget!! It really makes me wonder for what purpose Adonalsium created the worlds they created...very interesting.

I was thinking about that. About what his Intent is, or what he thinks it is. Does he think he hasn't found it yet? Does he think it passed him by and he was a coward by not doing it? Maybe his seeming lack of knowledge about Endowment in WB is mitigated during the between time...maybe it all comes back to him in the moment but instead of giving up his breath, he chooses not to?

I wonder if this will be an Easter egg for a while, actually. Makes me wonder if Adonalsium was on a world-building spree of some sort. Trying new things, creating new peoples. Maybe it was seen as a threat by those who did the shattering? But I suppose not if Ruin and Preservation promptly did the exact same thing.

It also tracks from the last Rlain/Kaladin scene we had where Rlain wants empathy and to be listened to, and Kaladin does that well sometimes and doesn't do it well at other times. And the whole human/singer thing is VERY Roshar. Specism is very much a thing in that world, just like gender norms are. It's not projecting any "values" to see those interactions. People in subjugated positions have fought against that since the beginning of time. This is not modern or new, even if it's new for the people who weren't in those positions to acknowledge it. ETA: to me it felt less modern than Biblical, actually, which is how I how a lot of the slave/free peoples stories from SA.

agreed completely. I think this is acting with honor, right? I wonder if the spren will see it that way.

I think he's definitely spent some time at Silverlight it seems. His journey with Vivenna must have both educated him and disillusioned him--somehow even more than he already was. Fossils do take 10,000+ years, and from @RShara's timeline v2.0, we're just about 10-11,000 years post-shattering in ROW. So yeah, fossils would pre-date the shattering at *least*. This suggests that either Nalthis was post-shattering, or that, maybe more like Roshar, Adonalsium created the world closer to its shattering. With that said, many fossils are much much older than that. So I'd say Yolen is a very good guess. Maybe that's why he holds it so dear. It's a metaphor for himself, yes, but also maybe he wants answers too? And yolen seems like the source of a lot of answers. I bet Wit is not very forthcoming either.

Although it does sound like there's some distance between them at that moment, and he can't see Zahel. So whispering could definitely fit.